Crown Levels -- 48 times for one level?
Some of the crown levels seem insane. It seems that you have to repeat a lesson up to 48 times just to earn a single crown level. I don't understand how this is an improvement.
Is it possible to turn them off?
You can read more about the crown system here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26612939
It is only on higher crown levels that you will be required to do the higher number of repetitions to gain the next crown for that level.
I would recommend that you do not try to get all 5 crowns before proceeding to the next level.
Instead progress through to the next level after you gain a crown, ( or before ). And then over time complete the repetitions to gain your additional crown.
The real object is to learn the language, not gain the crowns. The crowns are there only as motivators.
You are in the driving seat to choose your own pace for your own learning. ༠
Well, part of Duolingo is supposedly the "gamification" aspect of the platform that makes it fun to learn. Requiring that someone go through a unit of a level that many times to get gamification type "hit" isn't that motivating. It's just mindless busywork and I think that works against the gamification concept. I can't see a kid finding that fun.
I actually do prefer the crown system. I never could get motivated by the old system. And I am a kid, and do find it fun and motivating. It's all about the individual, and I definitely agree that there should be an option to switch back, because some systems do not work for some people and this one definitely didn't work for many. I still wish to keep it though, as it's the only thing that brought me back and managed to make me stay learning German.
Grinding by enforcement never did anything positive for me, I would have told them to go...... BSc MSc PhD (new to modern languages, thank you Latin for getting me in to uni in 9 weeks of language classes)
Well, I would say that they're now at the point where they're actually demotivating. If you have to repeat a level 50 times to get the top crown, or once you get past the 21 repetitions for level 3 and then what you get is 40 repetitions for moving from level 4 to level 5, people aren't going to bother because that's just not fun anymore. Especially if the exercises are just basically repetitions of the same stuff over and over and over. I think this actually misses the point about the crowns being motivational.
I'd like to be able to turn this system off because I found the old system was more helpful.
FYI: I'm at level 4 on two early skills (Food and Animals) in my French tree.
Food requires 35 repetitions to go from L4 to L5
Animals requires 25 repetitions to go from L4 to L5
So Ren918302 makes an interesting point re: gamification. It seems 35 repetitions is a very long interval before one gets the "game reward".
I realize that this could be new software growing pains. I hope things settle out over time.
I am levelling my entire Spanish tree to L5.
To go from L4 to L5 on Adverbs requires 51 repetitions.
Most of the time, to go from L4 to L5 , you need to do 35 to 51 repetitions. But it is not the amount of repetitions that seems to perturb me, rather it is the lack of variety within.
I do not enjoy writing, " Nosotros cocinamos solo en nuestra propia cocina," 25 times until it latches onto my subconscious.
It would be greatly appreciated if the Duolingo staff running the Spanish Tree, or any tree that has this issue, would simply add some diversity to the exercises.
Gracias y buena suerte a cualquiera que aprenda un idioma.
I keep getting told at work that you need to see/hear something 17 times to remember it, 35 seems over the top.
I did some mental math this am and I suspect I've figured out how the levels work.
(I again repeat that I am not complaining. I'm just trying to figure out how the new system works.)
As everyone has experienced, every skill has a different # of lessons at the bottom layer.
French Basics 1 has 4 lessons
French Basics 2 has 5
French French Food has 7
And the max # at any bottom layer is 10
Here's what I think is required for the subsequent levels
Level 0: as defined by DL
Level 1: the same as L0
Level 2: 2x # at level L0
Level 3: 3x # at level L0
Level 4: 5x # at level L0
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 12 times the number at L0
So putting that in terms of specific skills on the French tree....
Level 0: 4 lessons
Level 1: 4 lessons
Level 2: 8
Level 3: 12
Level 4: 20
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 48 lessons, earned 480 XP
Level 0: 7 lessons
Level 1: 7 lessons
Level 2: 14
Level 3: 21
Level 4: 35
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 84 lessons, earned 840 XP
Level 0: 10 lessons
Level 1: 10 lessons
Level 2: 20
Level 3: 30
Level 4: 50
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 120 lessons, earned 1,200 XP
If my thinking is correct, then to take the new structure to 100% gold at L5, with no repetition ... that implies 43,200 XP.
Should anyone wonder: here's my work
(Edited to clean up formatting.)
It's ridiculous! I studied French and Italian for years and I just like to use Duo as a practice tool. I should not have to repeat the activity about cats and dogs and milk 50 times before it lets me advance to another level.
No, that doesn't appear to be true. The one I'm talking about is called Basics 1. And the number of times you have to repeat each unit varies depending on the unit.
You have to be using the website t test out of the higher crown levels - but it can be done ( just not on the app unfortunately.
I too had no wish to do early lessons 40 times just to get the crown so I am testing out of pretty much all of my previously earned units in my best languages and only doing the grind in places where my results showmi don't know the subject area well enough yet.
The crown system is boring and too repetitious. It won't help me to learn French. I'm not doing the tree anymore and sticking to Memrise and the Duolingo stories until a fix is put in place, such as the option to switch back to the old system.
This is really not an improvement for me. Before crown levels I would just work on any lesson that wasn't gold until it was, and move on. But now that the crowns are here, nearly every lesson has turned from gold to its original color, and I don't know what I should spend my time on. It messes up my whole Duolingo system.
I hear you. To deal with this issue, I made a simple spreadsheet to track/manage my progress.
I don't bother to update it daily (too much work) update it when:
- I level up within a skill
- I've decided there is no need to continue work on that skill (I suspect my cat can spell "garçons" at this point) -- I mark these skills with green
- I've found a skill where I make a lot of mistakes or think I need extra practice - I mark these skills with red
How I use this info:
- My 1st goal was to take everything before the 1st checkpoint to L4/0 (unless I mark a skill as a "I'm done", which I did for Plurals1 and Basics3). If I were doing it again, I would have stopped at L3/0
- My 2nd goal was to take everything between the 1st and 2nd checkpoints to L3/0.
- Now I'm working on the skills between the 2nd and 3rd checkpoints, taking them all to L3/0. Also the skills between the 3nd and 4rd checkpoints, taking them all to L2/0
- My plan is to move up the tree in the manner.
- For skills I've marked in red ... I do 2 or 3 lessons a day until I can set them back to normal
- Then follow the same process to get everything up to L4/0
At this point, I am uncertain if/how I will use the L4 exercises. I appreciate that they require us to type in the target language ...
However, my process is to handwrite pretty much every French sentence every time I encounter it. By the time I hit L4/0 ... the marginal utility may not be right for me.
The new system requires some self-management. It's do-able!
Sad that you've had to resort to this. I went from solid gold 3/4 of the way through the French course to barely gold when I got the new expanded French course. That was a bit demotivating. I was very proud of my gold tree that I was growing. And now that I've just received crowns, I've LOST ALL MY GOLD and it looks like my tree may never be gold. THAT IS DEMOTIVATING. I was trying to do Basics 1 to get gold. I can only type Oui, Non, and Je suis un homme so many times before getting bored silly. I think I know the basics by now, but it will never be gold. I can appreciate what Duoling is trying to do (give us more depth) and it will no doubt be useful as things get harder, but there needs to be a way to indicate/test that you know a skill and make it gold for people that know this introductory stuff!
I absolutely agree that it's both boring for more advanced users (there should be a test to get to at least whatever level the old lessons would be considered as) and utterly demotivating to see the entire gold skill tree vanish. Plus, according to another comment, the skills won't decay over time like the old system, making the long hours of practice needed to gain crown levels almost worthless when there's no motivation to continue to practice them if the skill ever does turn gold.
I appreciate Ruggles's idea, but I barely have the time to work on Duolingo each day and can't really devote any time to having a way to keep track of the new crown levels. It was so much easier, no matter how many skills had decayed, to go back and work on the colored ones until they turned gold and have that be it for that day's practice.
I agree. I had to take a few month break from Duolingo when work got crazy. My basic lessons I have retained well (so I'm not super enthused about having to repeat those 30x to get the crowns) but the ones that were newer to me when I took that break are not quite as "drilled in," and I would really like to start over with them. When I look at my crown levels, though, it's got me at a level higher than I feel comfortable/confident in. I understand that "failing" while learning is perfectly fine, but if you know you want to start at square one on past tense, then you should be able to go back to square one and not be automatically presented with Level 2 questions..
That is a more logical use of language learning. I'm right there with you on this one. That's always been my goal, not having a gold tree which I never really cared about, especially since I use a lot of other sources to reinforce what I'm learning on Duolingo.
I had the Spanish tree completely gold for almost three months, then I logged on and all of a sudden everything changed. I miss seeing how fluent I was and now everything is at a level of at least 2, which is horribly scary considering how much time I already put into it, and how much time it'll take to fix.
My cat can absolutely spell "garçon" and after all this level repetition they propose now I won't be surprised if he starts to eat red apples.
Messes up my system, too. In the old system, once you had achieved a golden tree (which in itself is a hard thing to do) it was so easy to just keep at it by levelling up whenever needed. The new system becomes a chase for crowns without the feeling that you have actually kept it going. The promised "higher-level" exercises I've encountered so far do in no way justify a drop in skill level by 2-3 crowns. They do not seem that hard at all, but then I had been studying Welsh for over a year and achieved a very solid golden tree. It is ridiculous and frustrating in the extreme! Also, the health system is driving me mad. Making mistakes lies in the very nature of language learning - being punished for making them is so counter-productive. Makes you wonder what Duolingo is really about ...does it not??
yes and I am a beta for the new spanish, so I have 108 skills to keep track of, all of which faded from their former gold. Got help at this link: https://duome.eu/wanderingabout/progress - where you should put your own name in place of mine which is wanderingabout . What I'm trying is to work on whatever skill is at the bottom of this list and gain a crown for it, one a day. It is unfortunate I cannot do this and also maintain strength in the rest, but ... anyway I am learning...
Having to go over 35 in the food skills to go from L4 to L5 is just overkill. I'm scared of the next skills if these are the first ones.
Actually, what I'm noticing is that you can unlock the next row after you've achieved one crown in each skill. So maybe the crown levels are helpful in terms of reviewing over time.
And I tried going through the first set of skills enough times to get a level five crown. Although it's incredibly dull and tremendously repetitious, I think I'll probably never make another mistake on this material ever again.
That said, it wasn't what I'd call "enjoyable." It's like achieving mastery at the cost of being bored to tears.
I did, however, feel an strange sense of accomplishment from being able to grind through that many repeats (maybe marines get this at bootcamp?). Although I'm not sure I'm sold on doing it for every skill.
Pretty frustrated with this change. I have 43k experience points over my time using Duo and I end up with a Level 2 crown in Basic 2??? How is this helpful?
It incentivizes people who have finished trees to continue learning, and at the same time lets beginners learn at their own pace. You haven't lost any progress. It's just displayed differently now.
It's the new format for the language tree...not everyone has it yet. Mine is still the old version.
It's actually the very first unit of the French course. I can't see anyone wanting or needing to go through that 48times to get to the level 5 crown for the first unit of the first level. It's called Basics 1.
I agree, the # rounds it takes to make a skill gold is pretty steep.
The second skill requires 60 times to make it gold (get to level 5).
The 3rd 48 again.
(I'm only at level 4 for the 4th and fifth skills. Based on the # of 4th level rounds, both of these will be >50)
The 6th is 24.
Getting a completed tree has become a much longer task.
Actually, you only need to complete one crown in each unit of a row to unlock the next row. You don't need them to be golden. But that still means going through each unit anywhere from 2 to 10 or 12 times.
That is something called overlearning in language learning. All the praised methods use it and the results are fantastic, your knowledge of the language will be rock solid when done.
Much like everyone here, I agree that the sheer amount of repetition is off-putting and demotivating. Having a solid gold tree was something to aim for, but now it seems hardly worth it.
I will say that it /is/ nice to have more repetition for harder languages (FSI 4&5). They tend to have less supplementary material "out there" and people are less likely to have extra support within the community. In that respect, some extra repetition helps to address the need for extra practice these languages require.
Crown levels remind me of two games in particular, Dark Souls and The Division. Dark Souls is known for being an exceptionally difficult game and requires near countless repetition of levels and memorization of patterns in order for the player to progress. (Sound like language learning, anyone?) However, Crown Levels remind me more of "Tom Clancy's The Division" - set in post-apacolypic New York, the game started off with an unprecedented player base that all but vanished inside three months of its release. Why? Because the modes were overly repetitive and opponents acted like "bullet sponges," often requiring multiple headshots to take down. Players quickly grew bored and frustrated because the game relied too much on "grinding" - repeating same/similar, innane tasks again and again in order to progress.
For learners who like the sense of completion of having everything gold, this is a real drag. Hope they either revert or toggle the crown levels soon.
I think that's what I'm feeling too. That lack of being able to "finish" anything. I was 2/3 of the way through the French tree when I was switched over and all of the lessons were at different crown levels. I made the mistake of trying to go through the earlier ones until I hit level 5. That was exhausting and boring. I don't recommend this.
I can definately relate to your perfect analogy anthrowolfe. Especially for the people who just wanted to refreshen their memory on vocabulary and grammar skills on a language, even if the tree or skill doesn't have to be completely golden is a pretty nice way to keep track in your own pace whatever you like in particular. But since crowns came out, DL's golden system is has completely changed to require much more repetition at an assigned numbered amount of times to make skills golden once again since it got released. Although as of now, there hasn't been any noticeable changes since early April, and I don't know when they're gonna either change/revert back or tweak it. We might as well wait a while and see if anything new comes up.
You could just test out of the level by selecting the key and get the crowns that way if you feel ready to move on.
Just take the test because it is WAY faster and you get a lot of XP in a short amount of time!!
To my knowledge, you only have to level up in crown levels if you want to. Most of my crown levels are between 1-5 for a skill, but this does not seem to affect Duolingo giving me new skills to practice/learn. I just ignore the crown levels and try to learn as opposed to trying to increase my crown level. Hopefully this helped! -@brot-
I actually like crown system, with 48 levels it just says to you: you don't do it via repetition :D
So, I found that you can try to "skip it". You get 3 lives, harder set of question and you must answer them all correctly without "popup" hints about words. Basically, a test of skill. If you win, you instantly get full crown level. That's actually seemed to me like a game :D When I learn Japanese I do as following: level 1 - do whole thing 3-5 times to get crown. level 2 - try to pass with sound on, getting to level 3 from level 2 with only 3 lives. level 3+ - try to pass with no sound. Actually makes you read characters and shows you what you kanji you don't know well enough.
tl;dr duolingo accidentally created a good game for me :D
There is also enough repetition in later lessons that you don't need to repeat the same thing 50 times. I'm doing every lesson up to level 2 and if I really need to level 3, but am finding that even if I'm week at something, it usually sets in when used with more context in a later lesson. I picture I might have to make a second pass once I complete the tree but will cross that bridge once that comes.
I'm gonna chime in here with literally everyone else and say that the crown system still needs work, guys. I'm a French Intermediate/Advanced learner; I shouldn't have to repeat "I am a cat. A cat and a boy" this many times to get the "Basics" skill to gold. I shouldn't have had to do ANYTHING in Basics 1. Maybe the placement test could set the skills that come before your level as gold and DONE so you don't have to slog through them to see any game reward? It's super demotivating to have to grind rudimentary vocab when I should be using my time on more advanced skills that will actually help me progress towards fluency.