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https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Izim_M

Not sure whether to look forward to or be fearful of upcoming Crown system

  • 1601

Hello,

I've read many topics about the new Crown system and I'm not sure what to expect from it. So far my Duolingo hasn't changed yet, and I haven't gotten an option to change either. On the one hand, I'm a bit afraid that I won't be able to do timed practise anymore, which is what I almost always use. I also rely quite a lot on the color of the skills (gold or not) to decide which skills I should repeat.

On the other hand, I've heard that the Crown system gives you harder exercises as you make progress, with more exercises on writing in the target language. For the languages where I've made the most progress, this is exactly what I'm missing. I can easily do most of the exercises, but writing full sentences in the target language remains to be rather difficult. From this point of view I can't wait until it's my turn. Aside from that I also like a good challenge and the plenty of achievements and rewards that Duolingo gives. My aim is always to reach level 25 in the languages I study, so whilst trying to reach the highest level, I could collect all of the crowns. I'm not sure what would usually happen first though: getting all the crowns of a language or reaching level 25, they both seem like pretty large tasks.

I just wanted to share this and perhaps hear other people's opinions, thanks for reading.

March 25, 2018

47 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

Never fear, this too will change! They are always changing something. So, I've decided to just roll with it and find workarounds to whatever I can.

If you want to more write sentences in the target language, then the reverse courses really are the best option as compared to the skill levels at this point in time. In the reverse course at level 0, you'll get about 10 out of 20 write in the target if you choose to use the keyboard. I took one of my skills to level 5 and got far less than that of writing in the target language.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/louis.vang

I reached the fifth crown for basic 1 in learning Dutch from English. It was more a type course than a language course. But now, i type much faster in Dutch and English.

It is not always usefull to reach the fifth crown: when you don't learn something new in a skill, take the next skill.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

I agree and will probably not bother to bring many of the basic skills up to level 5. However, I do plan to reach level 5 eventually for all the verb skills because I always need more practice! As for the rest, I'll use my own judgment.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/svrsheque

my concern actually is the reverse tree direction. the crown gain will presumably result in reducing the translation percentage of interest.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

I was concerned about that too, but so far it's been fine. Out of about 20 questions in the reverse course, I usually get around 10 or more write in the language I'm learning (Spanish at the moment) and another 10 or so seem to vary depending on the level. Recently, 15 out of 23 were write in Spanish.

At level 2, there don't seem to be any audio questions, which is fine for the reverse tree right?

At the higher levels, they do introduce more speaking and listening exercises if you have those features turned on. You can always choose to turn them off. In any case, it's still far more write in the target language than any of the regular trees at any level.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/svrsheque

thank you. the loss of listening exercises would certainly be welcome for the reverse user, unless they need those to keep the timed exercises alive.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dwduo

So far, with a mostly gold tree (of covered topics) and years here, I'm still trudging through Basics 1 (hundreds of points... and who cares?) and I'm being asked the same few questions over and over.

"He, she, it."

"Water and bread."

"Bread, water." ...um...

"A man drinks."

"A girl, a woman."

"He is a boy and I am a man."

It's pretty awful so far. When I first dove in, I expected that with so many lessons to pass, every sentence would be different, each a variation on a word or a topic to learn. Nope -- endless repetition of the same over and over. I can't tell whether SRS will be part of it anymore, or if once "passed" it's gold forever. I'm dreading moving forward, and really pretty confused, because Duo is generally much better than this.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

If it's boring, then why not skip it? Why are you doing Basics 1? I feel under no obligation to go over basics that I already know. If Duolingo decides to put me in Level 2 or 3 for basics, I see no reason to take those skills all the way up to level 5. Instead, I prefer to focus on the areas where I need more work such as all the verbs.

My understanding is that they do degrade but more slowly if you've done so many practices enough to get to level 5. None of mine have degilded yet, but I assume that they will eventually at some point.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MikeNolan6

The one constant I've seen on DuoLingo in 15 months is change. The Crowns system is the latest change, it won't be the last one.

I've bee kind of stuck in a rut for the last few months, repeating mostly the same skills in my French tree (around 35-40) and occasionally a lower one, but not much beyond the 3rd checkpoint.

Something new might be welcome, once I get used to it.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Izim_M
  • 1601

That's definitely true. Thankfully most changes are indeed improvements.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

Skill-specific timed practice workaround: delete the number at the end of the URL; type "practice".

But from crown level 3 you'll likely (accounts differ) get plenty of translation into the target language, so you probably wouldn't be looking to do timed practice immediately, anyway.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

If you're curious, here's what I'm getting at level 3 for my Spanish for English speakers course - Past tense skill

20 questions - 5 write in English, 7 write in Spanish, 4 Spanish multiple-choice and 4 Spanish-audio listening: type what you hear

18 questions - 7 write in English, 5 write in Spanish, 1 Spanish multiple-choice and 5 Spanish-audio listening: type what you hear

18 questions - 8 write in English, 5 write in Spanish, 1 Spanish multiple-choice and 4 Spanish-audio listening: type what you hear

17 questions - 8 write in English, 5 write in Spanish, 1 Spanish multiple-choice and 4 Spanish-audio listening: type what you hear

17 questions - 8 write in English, 4 write in Spanish, 0 Spanish multiple-choice and 4 Spanish-audio listening: type what you hear

Four to seven write in target language is an improvement in my opinion. From what I recall from the previous system (although I could go back to my older account and test it out), I was getting only 2 or 3 translate into the language you are learning.

Thanks for the tip about timed-practice, I'm not doing that at this point, but I may want to get back to that later. I could see some people wanting the timed practice sooner.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Noabji

I'm assuming that getting to level 25 would come first because most trees have ~ 90 skills. I've heard that to get from level 3 to 4 for crowns, you need to do 24 lessons. That is 240 XP, plus whatever you need to get to level five, (I'm assuming around 30 lessons), and the lessons before (probably around 20 total) combined (30+24+20=74 * 10xp=740 XP per skill),. Now, multiply that 740 XP by 90. 740 * 90 = 66,600 XP. You only need 30,000 XP to get to level 25. I might be off on how many times you need to practice a skill to get to the fifth crown level, but since the total XP is WAY above 30,000, I'm assuming level 25 would come first. Good luck with you languages!

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/louis.vang

I have the crown system since today: 1-2: 2 lessons 2-3: 8 lessons 3-4: 15 lessons 1-5: 20 lessons

total: 35 lessons for one skill. Your calculation would be (35+20)*90=4950 lessons or 49.500 points.

For the fist lessons you get 10 points for each lesson. For the large sentences lower in the tree, you become 20 points for each lesson.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lrtward

How many lessons you need to do to get from Crown level 1 to level 2 to level 3 etc. varies from skill set to skill set.

For example, right now in French from English my "Time" and "Infinitive" skills are unlocked with no crowns. "Time" requires 9 lessons to get to level 1 and "Infinitive" only requires 5.

Possess.2, Demonst 2, and Family are all at Crown level 1. Possess. 2 requires 2 lessons to get to level 2; Demonst. 2 requires 1 lesson to get to level 2, and Family requires 3 lessons to get to level 2.

Prepos 1 requires 2 lessons to get to level 3 and Numbers requires 6 lessons to get to level 3

Adject 2 requires 24 lessons to get to level 4 and Pronouns requires 9 lessons to get to level 4.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

It seems the pattern to obtain each level is (where "LC" is the number of constituent lessons in the skill)

  • level 1: LC
  • level 2: LC
  • level 3: 2*LC
  • level 4: 3*LC
  • level 5: 5*LC

Does anyone's experience not match this?

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rhabarberbarbara

That's exactly what I get as well. So it's 12*LC to get from 0 to 5. So for a course with 66 skills and 325 lessons (Swedish) it would take 3900 exercises to get everything from 0 to gold. Not counting bonus points on mobile this would bring you to 39000 XP and easily surpass level 25.

March 27, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Izim_M
  • 1601

Would this mean that I need to gain at least another 30.000 to 50.000 XP for each language to get all the crowns, including for those that I'm already level 25 in? Or will I already have a number of crowns for those languages?

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/louis.vang

For me: The first fiftheen skills were on the the second crown, a few on the third crown

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Izim_M
  • 1601

Alright, I suppose that's good. Doing some harder exercises on the languages I'm level 25 in is probably helpful.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rhabarberbarbara

For me: everything but the last 3-5 skills were on the second crown, the last few on the first.

Fun fact: this was true for all my trees no matter if I hadn't touched them in two years or had kept them gold for more than one year. Looking at the code at my extended profile page this is probably because my transfer was simple

"learning_levels_migration_experience":{"contexts":[],"treated":true,"destiny":"simple","condition":"simple","eligible":true}

I don't know how many different ways they did, but at least my friend's data said complex.

March 28, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OmegaGmaster

I feel this as well. As amazing as the feature seems, the way it's being rolled out is not at all. I do hope that once skill levels are rolled out to everyone, it's done right and in a way that isn't going to lead to riots. This meme sums up skill levels at their current state:

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lrtward

Out of curiosity, how would you roll it out? I agree there are riots, but I was thinking it's just because people hate change.

They did a beta test, then an announcement, then a roll-out.
What would you do differently?
This is a legit question, because we are about to roll out a big change at work and I want it to go smoothly. I'm keenly interested in "user buy-in" right now, and you seem to have good ideas.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EL5tEL

Lrtward: First, I want to thank you for all of your responses regarding the new system in the many discussions. I feel much better after reading your posts.

Not that your were looking for my opinion, but I think that testing and the Pre-launch announcement were great. What I would have done different, is provide more communication before the roll out.

I get the sense that people are upset because what they are experiencing with the skills level is different than what they expected. The prelaunch announcement didn't describe how your progress would translate and didn't talk about the timed practice not being available.

I do think that change is hard - but communication makes it easier. So again thank YOU for all you've been doing to communicate.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OmegaGmaster

To add to what you said, I've seen some complaints about progress essentially going from 100 to zero with the skill levels turning their gold skills to crown level 0. First of all, that should never happen. Depending on the skill size (i.e. number of lessons) having the skill complete should at least guarantee a crown level 1 or 2. The amount of strengthening that has been done on a skill previously should also help in determining the crown level of the skill. Beginner skills have most likely have had a lot of practice, both directly on the skill and indirectly in later skills, so it should be easy for those to get to crown level 5. As you go down though, it should get harder and harder.

Another idea I've seen here and support is adding bronze and silver skills. Getting to level 1-2, for example, could be bronze, and 3-4 could be silver. That way users can see that they indeed are making progress, rather than relying on a skill turning golden to tell them if they are.

To be honest, I really like the idea of skill levels, but I'm afraid to make the switch because I've seen plenty of complaints about skill levels turning their progress into barely anything.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

To add to what you said, I've seen some complaints about progress essentially going from 100 to zero with the skill levels turning their gold skills to crown level 0.

I haven't seen any comment it seemed like that had happened. I think people are complaining that it shows zero out of however many lessons for all the skills for the next crown level. However, they haven't been put at crown level zero. They're at level 1, 2, or 3. (I do wonder if anybody's been given 4 or 5 from the get-go.)

I agree that seeing that 0 figure would be disconcerting if you didn't understand what was going on. A bit more info to help get people oriented could have gone a long way.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

None of my skills that I've completed turned to skill level 0. All those I'd already done came in at crown level 1, 2, or 3.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lrtward

Thank you! You just made me very happy :)

I see your point and thank you for explaining it well. I was part of the beta test, and now that you say it I do recall us beta testers having tons of questions. Now it seems so obvious to me... but of course it's not. It's new, and more information - rather, better setting of expectations - is key. Great input, thanks.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Izim_M
  • 1601

Perhaps it would be good if there's some sort of banner on top of everyone's home screen that says "We are moving to our new Crown system to optimize your learning experience in X days!" and then a button "Find out more" that takes you to the announcement topic (cause not everyone visits the forums), and a button "Try it out now!" that lets you try it or update earlier, with the option to go back to the normal system for the remaining X days.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lrtward

Thanks - we're implementing something kind of like this at work. An announcement via email saying it's coming - but we don't have a "Find out More!" link and that's a great idea.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dlhgl

but I was thinking it's just because people hate change.

In addition to this I think there were high expectations after the first beta testers were mostly excited about the new crowns. And as usual this may increase the chance that people are disappointed about the change.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lrtward

Good point. Guilty! I love the crown system. I didn't at first, but now I'd hate hate hate to have to give it up.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PaulEres1

i haven't gotten the crown system yet, the scoring system of crowns vs strength levels doesn't seem to bother me, or the idea of progress resetting. however, what DOES bother me is the removal of timed practise. that is what i always use to practise. i enjoy the challenge of the timing. do you know if the developers gave any reason for removing that way of practise? if the crown system removes that i don't feel like i'd want to use duolingo anymore, because i find the infinite time practises not as fun, i enjoy the stress of being on a timer. and yes even with the crown system, timed 'overall' practise remains, but it seems like they are removing the option to review any particular lesson as a timed practise, which to me would take all of the fun out of duolingo.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HalJam
  • 1658
March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ycUvuSap

Giving the choice would require maintaining two different systems in the future. Depending on the details, it could be a lot of work.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HalJam
  • 1658
March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/scilling

In my view, a “try before you buy” option is helpful; allow people to temporarily try the big new change so that they can compare it to the current way of doing things. This allows for a period of adjustment, and if there is some “showstopper” in the new way that makes it intolerable, people can back out of the new change and continue to do things in the old familiar way. The “ratchet” method of not being able to revert from a new change, rather than the new method itself, is what people tend to hate; people hate being deprived of freedom of choice. Even if the old method is “frozen” and will no longer receive improvements or fixes, allow people to adopt the new method at their own speed.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

I got the "Upgrade now" button displayed as popup message on 20 March 2018 on the web portal, but I could hit the "X" and refuse migration.

I suggest you do the same until we will see in the next 6-12++ months a more "final product" from the BETA test.

This is especially true if you do reverse trees.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

Why do you recommend this for those of us doing the reverse trees? I opted in and so far, it's been fine for my English from Spanish tree. What do you see as the problem exactly?

I'm not going to try to change your mind. However, I find the reverse trees harder with the new skill levels/crowns because there are no audio exercises early on and I choose to use the keyboard to type my answers. It could be made easier if you used the tiles, but why?

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hermesianax

Interesting, so your experience with reverse trees is positive? Do you mean that it's more challenging in the early levels for the target language you are using as a base language in that tree?

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

I am very grateful that staff / programmers asked me if I want to test this new feature already and if I want to (only) opt-in manually.

This is so great!
Thank you!

At least they give ME a chance to decide to finish my two PT-EN and PT-DE reverse trees (strong focus on L1 writing in Portuguse) and focus only on some selective PT grammar skills for my forward EN-PT in the old way I know and used to work with.....


What I REALLY (only) want to do in 2019++ is for a completed course with a golden owl:

That crown level 5 is set PERMANENT and strenghten lessons use RANDOM (difficult / mixed) sentences from crown levels (3) 4-5.

I do not want to (re-)do (all) lessons one by one, especially from lower crown levels 1, 2 and 3 or make my skills in-complete (lessons), or locked (grey).
.
.
I finally want to see - ALL available - more difficult sentences, which were always hidden in translation exercises (only displayed for Android app tapping, web multiple choice, etc.).


Skill crown levels (incl. focus first on easier stuff and exercise challenges) may be useful for fresh language / course starters (or a very difficult language), but NOT if I am already practicing Portuguese for ~1,5 years and using Memrise, AnkiSRS, Mondly, uTalk, etc. in parallel.

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hermesianax

Skill crown levels (incl. focus first on easier stuff and exercise challenges) may be useful for fresh language / course starters (or a very difficult language), but NOT if I am already practicing Portuguese for ~1,5 years and using Memrise, AnkiSRS, Mondly, uTalk, etc. in parallel.

But Thomas, I don't think users like you were ever DL's target audience. Don't you think you have exhausted what this app has to offer?

March 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

My husband has said more or less the same to me recently in terms of "exhausted what this app has to offer." For me, the answer is no, I have not.

No, like Thomas, I'm not Duolingo's typical target audience. However, I'm able to find ways to make it work for me by doing mostly reverse trees and laddering. If we had reached the limit of what Duolingo can offer, don't you think that we would be astute enough to be aware of that? I do agree that I can't necessarily expect them to cater to more intermediate and advanced learners, but it would be nice. I like the stories.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hermesianax

I probably should have clarified that I did not mean that DL as a whole does not have anything to offer intermediate/advanced users anymore, I was suggesting that you eventually will outgrow the 'simple tree' (a language course from the language you know best, often English) and continuing to lvl 25 is often not necessary for all users.

I'm able to find ways to make it work for me by doing mostly reverse trees and laddering.

As do I. Yet reverse trees and laddering are not really advanced options DL has to offer, they are rather ways of using courses that are, like all courses, designed with new users in mind, but in a more sophisticated and challenging way.

The English-from-Portuguese tree, for example, was designed with Portuguese native speakers in mind who want to learn English, not intermediate/advanced learners of Portuguese who have already completed the Portuguese-from-English tree. These trees can still be useful for our kind of users even though DL has not designed them with us specifically in mind, and that's what I meant when I said that Thomas probably is not part of DL's target audience anymore.

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Hi Hermesianax,

I have another one:

Don't you think you have exhausted what this app has to offer?

I know I SHOULD strengthen those weaker and more difficult "grammar skills" I have finished October/November end of 2017.

For some I did already in 2018, for many others I did not.

So I may have seen several tenses just once or twice.
This is really NOT enough especially if you do not work through a grammar book in PARALLEL.

It is so sad to have to admit that I am too often too lazy to open those low-strength grammar skills and re-do all lessons, or at least strengthen them.
And once I had opened them in multiple registers, I can not push myself through and re-do the lessons within, dunno why :(

I could find either more important and weaker skills by filtering them with:

  • "Trim tree" user script
  • "DuoLingo skill strength viewer" user script
  • duolingo.eu/username here/progress URL

What do I do instead for my forward EN-PT course?

I quite often use the GLOBAL strengthen button with "timed practice" to re-strengthen golden skills from top to buttom to gain some XPs for my clubs.

And since there is no "from bottom to top" user setting for this global strengthen button, I am actually missing for the past 2-5 months at least 1/3 to 1/2 of my skills further down in my forward EN-PT tree :( :(

"DuoLingo skill strength viewer", when It was working before 20 March 2018, counted already too many "Dead words" (0 strength).

I could (should) still open ALL those more important grammar Portuguese skills (like past tenses, three Subjunctives) but I would have to commit myself to collect a lot of XPs per day or week, like at least 300-500XP.

I rarely hit more than 150 to 350XP / week for my forward tree.

And when it is night (22:00pm-01:00am) I can simply not find the nerves to especially focus on those "grammar skills" and re-do the lessons, as other users have suggested before.

Just want to "quickly" collect XPs from easier (vocabulary) skills for my club(s) at night...I do not want to fall back to 0XP while focusing on the reverse tree.


So to answer your question Hermesianax:

NO, currently I do not have the feeling, that I will have outgrown the DuoLingo web portal for the next 3-6 months with typing, more detailed "tips and notes" reviews (I "overread" once) and "grammar skill" practices.

Honestly, I am not too sure if I would even buy, read and work through book chapters of the Portuguese (user-created) course(s) I found on Memrise...
Buying but not reading is not the real solution either :-) .
.
The Mondly topics for example just focus on some tenses....not all DuoLingo grammar skills when they teach you some phrases or you do the conversation modules (two person dialogs).
But what do I know...I have not completed the Mondly tree....

I know: It's time to move on to my PT BR Podcast101 account...I have not even started there ;)

March 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PupilTommo

I had almost completed all the skills and was heading to Level 18. Now Duolingo has sent me back to Level 1! I fear I will leave Duolingo. I do not want to go over the very basic levels again. I fear I will give up. O me miserum!

April 7, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JulesF.

Hey Izim_m, are you still following this thread?

Do you use Discord by any chance? I would like to invite you to a special server where we discuss languages and other topics. You will recognize many famous Duolingoers there!

If you are interested, drop me a line.

April 7, 2019
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