https://www.duolingo.com/karint

Crowns FAQ

karint
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Hi everyone!

A few months ago, we told you about Skill Levels (now referred to as “Crown Levels” or “Crowns”) and how excited we were to bring them to everyone. Every new user has gotten Crowns for a while now. And as you probably noticed, we have started transitioning learners with older accounts to the new system, too.

Of course, with any change comes a lot of concern and confusion, especially with such a dedicated user base. With this latest small rollout, we were able to gather lots of feedback and questions from you! We not only want to address the main ones in this forum post, but we also plan to shoot out an email to everyone who switches into Crowns to make sure we reach all our learners.

So, here are a bunch of questions and concerns, and our attempts to address them. If we missed yours, let us know in the comments!


Crowns FAQ

What are Crowns?

Crowns are a new feature that we believe lets us teach better. Each skill you do has a “Crown Level” associated with it. When you level up a skill, you earn a Crown, and the types of exercises you see will get harder. You can choose to go deeper into skills and level them up or continue on to new skills to learn new content.

This is a total redesign of the skill tree that solves one of Duolingo’s biggest challenges: remaining fun for casual learners while still offering advanced content for serious learners. Casual learners can still go through the whole tree fairly easily, while more advanced learners can get a lot more depth by leveling up their skills and earning Crowns.

You can think of Crowns as adding a new dimension to the tree. Instead of just moving down the tree, you can now also move deeper into each skill. This allows us to give you more challenging exercises (like listening and typing in your learning language) when you're ready for it — and only if you want it.

We encourage you to check out the original post introducing Crowns for more details.

I lost all of my progress!

Don’t worry, you really didn’t. It may be surprising to find skills that were once gold are now colorful again, but all your lessons that were “completed” before are still completed. We also still track your strength for each word just like we used to.

We went one step further and actually used how many times you’ve seen the words in a skill and how many times you got those words right to determine whether to place you at Level 1, 2, or 3. Since levels get harder as you go up, we didn’t feel comfortable placing anyone at Level 4 or 5, since the old system didn’t give hard enough exercises to place into these levels. Of course, if you already know the language very well, this may not be the right level. But, it is still more challenging than what was offered before.

Will my progress decay over time?

There are no plans to make skill progress decay over time. Once you earn a crown, you get to keep it! This actually reduced a lot of confusion from learners who felt they lost progress when their skills decayed. We want our users to be able to see their knowledge growing over time with each lesson they do.

What about spaced repetition? How do I know what to practice next?

This is something we are actively working on. There’s a lot of choice with this new system, and though some learners love that choice, others prefer recommendations for what to do. We are gathering lots of data on current usage to try to make an intelligent system that suggests the right next steps for each learner. This will take some time, but it’s really important to us.

In the meantime the practice button is always there, which takes your weakest words into account when choosing what you should practice. Our community has also shared great suggestions for what works for them. Personally, I learn new content until I feel overwhelmed, then go back and level up skills to practice and get more comfortable with things.

Does the “practice” button do anything?

Practice works exactly as it did before, but it no longer has a visual effect on your tree. This means that while practice helps you review and strengthen words that need it, it does not level up skills or unlock new content by doing it. This was the case before Crowns as well.

We want to replace this with something more satisfying in the future.

Will we have the option to use the old system?

We want to be super transparent here: Crowns will go out to everyone. This change is necessary to improve how we teach and add more difficult content for those who want it. The gains we’ve seen are incredible. We understand that some of you will miss or prefer the old system at first, but we’re optimistic you will adapt to love this system too :)

The old system had several years of improvements and iterations. That’s why we’re so excited that this new system is doing even better. Just imagine all we can accomplish from this new starting point!

Who has Crowns now? When will I get them?

About half of all users are on Crowns. New users have had them for a while, and we gave around 10% of legacy accounts the option to switch into Crowns. Some users were also switched automatically, and metrics are looking great for this A/B test as well.

We will roll out Crowns to everyone in the next few weeks.

Can I test out of Levels? It takes a really long time to get to Level 5.

Not currently, but you don’t have to get to Level 5 right away! We in fact recommend you don’t get to Level 5 all in one go. Level 5 is there to show that you have practiced the words in that skill a ton and probably don’t need further practice on it for quite a while. It’s completely optional. We definitely think we can do a better job of encouraging you not to binge on one skill, though, since that can feel really repetitive. And of course we take the blame for motivating you to love and aim for gold skills!

We are considering options for users to prove their existing knowledge on skills so they can be placed at the right difficulty from the start. We also want to make it more satisfying to complete each level (and not necessarily get all the way to Level 5).

I miss being able to practice individual skills.

We didn’t remove skill practice; we rebranded it! With Crowns, we turned skill practice into more lessons. With the old system, you would complete a skill once then practice however much you wanted to. With Crowns, you still complete the skill once to be able to advance, but then you’re able to practice with increasing difficulty and get concrete progress and credit each time.

I miss being able to see words in each lesson.

We can consider bringing it back in some form, but right now we think investing in better ways to see and practice words makes more sense.

I miss my fluency score.

Despite our efforts, the fluency score wasn’t as accurate as we wanted it to be. It caused a lot of confusion, especially for learners who didn’t understand why it never reached 100%. We may revisit it later, but for now it was causing more harm than good.

I can’t pick what lesson I want to do anymore.

We want to give the right balance of choice and guidance, and we’re still tweaking that. So far, we haven’t been hearing complaints that content is too difficult; the feedback has been that difficulty is effortless and natural or that it’s too easy. Therefore, we aren’t concerned at this time that skills are advancing too quickly for learners.

My tree all looks the same now. I miss gold skills.

This is one of our own biggest criticisms of Crowns, too. We’re trying to figure out ways to display Crowns better so that people can be satisfied hitting each level, not just Level 5. There are a lot of ideas for how to do this, but it’s not easy to make a 5-tiered system that doesn’t clash with all the existing colors and doesn’t make things overly complex. We’re actively working on it!

You said Crowns did really well in A/B testing. What exactly did it do?

We saw gains across the board: learners using the app more, sticking around on Duolingo longer, completing more lessons, typing in their learning language more, and doing harder exercises. We’re working on a blog post to share some of these findings with you, so stay tuned!


Thank you all for being such a passionate community. We are happy to see both positive and negative feedback, because it shows how much everyone cares about this experience that is Duolingo. Please continue to help each other learn and grow, and we will keep doing our best to bring you the best possible language learning experience.

Happy learning!

8 months ago

1807 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/goosefield
goosefield
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The fact that skills no longer decay has been the biggest deterrent for me. Ever since the crowns update, I’ve felt less motivated to go back and review skills for this very reason (and because it takes an unreasonable amount of time and effort to strengthen basic skills). I don’t know about retention for other users, but for me it has been bad so far. Before the update, I would do at least 100 XP daily to strengthen my skills, but now I find myself just doing 10 XP to keep my streak alive. I can’t imagine how one could expect to keep users coming back once they get to level 5 on all skills if their progress did not decay. I hope you guys revisit your decision about skill decaying and I’d love to hear what others think about it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheHolyV

I agree.... I finished my German tree and now I feel like abandoning Duolingo all together since I need to put in 100xp to bring Phrases (the 4th class in the course) up from 2 to 3... Sorry but that type of lesson for me is super boring now and I am not looking forward to have to basically work again on the WHOLE tree. It feels like being in day 1 again, but so boring because I know most of it!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Miss_Pasko

I had not heard of impending changes to crown system, so I am very confused as I just got changed over today.

I am trying to amend my way of using Duolingo to match what is on offer. One problem for me is I like to use the app on our office iPad if I have a break at work. I normally just do revision at the office. If I do a new lesson, I like to repeat it at home on the web version so I can read the comments that people have made. I learn QUITE A LOT from the comments - seeing what mistakes others have made - hearing from more experienced users/native speakers of my target language - getting links to other sites.

If I can't repeat lessons, how will I access those comments!!!??

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/xapheus

I'm trying to figure out how much of a skill to do in one sitting. I don't think they intended to get a full crown level in one sitting. I plan on doing each skill lesson once or two runs through and then move to learn something else.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Stephen442646

I completely agree with goosefield on this. "Skill fade" is a real phenomenon, that the old system seems to accommodate. The new system seems to ignore to completely, which is fundamentally wrong. And, with the old gradient indicators, you could quickly and easily see specifically where you needed to go back and practice.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MariaKjell1

Yeah, I just got the crown update (hadn't heard anything about it before, I don't use the forums much). I was working on getting all skills golden, but that suddenly disappeared and the number of times I'd have to repeat every lesson now is just not motivating at all. Duolingo got boring... Well... At least it seems like level 5 is the maximum level? It wasn't even clear that there is a maximum level at first, neither did I know anything about lessons getting harder when I increased the level. At least it makes a little bit more sense now, I might give it a chance. Still feels like too much work reaching level 5 though, I don't want to do the basic lessons that many times, and I don't get any rewarding feeling at all from levelling up to another level. I think I'm gonna use other resources for learning German now. I had lost my streak anyway (due to not remembering Duolingo while on vacation) so everything just feels completely like starting over.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/c.zimmer

I cannot understand why they would get rid of the skill decaying, since your real-life skill and knowledge does decay if you do not continually practice. If I stop using Duolingo for months, do I just pick up from where I left off? I haven't spent much time with the new changes, but after using Duolingo regularly for about 5 years, I am suddenly less motivated to use it, which is incredibly unfortunate. I really loved Duolingo. I will still give it a chance and hope that it works out.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StevenRost2
StevenRost2Plus
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Please bring back the decay. I work on one language a month. At the start of the month, I work on all the "decayed" ones first, and then start new lessons after they are all gold. At the end of the month, I stop where I'm at and go to the next language and start again. I've finished two languages, and this crown level is fine for them. But for the ones I'm still learning, this has destroyed it. I don't know what to work on, and simply don't even bother. I'm just doing review now, and not learning anything new. I may discontinue my subscription, and go back to free, because this isn't something I want to pay for anymore.

What about implementing crowns only after one finishes all the lessons. That would make more sense. The old way makes much more sense to me when just starting out. Again, if this doesn't change by the next month, I'm discontinuing my subscription. This isn't worth it anymore.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CraftLass

Actually, I'm more annoyed about crowns in the language I'd completed than in my newer ones. I practice regularly in it and it's super-helpful to keep drilling as I venture into reading books, writing journals, listening to broadcasts, etc. in the language, but now? I just feel demoralized and bored trying to figure out what to practice, and I kind of want to scream from translating, "I am a boy," and the like dozens of times just to get basic lessons up to 5 when I've been translating that for a couple of years now. I also really miss "strengthen skills" and the way it would re-gold multiple skills sometimes, fabulous after you've done the whole tree.

My newer languages? I'm enjoying the more in-depth lessons, but that's only because I haven't practiced them thousands of times already. I still want decay in them, though.

I'd been wanting to upgrade to Plus, but now it's definitely not going to happen. Feel really bad for those of you who have it and are anywhere near as disappointed as I am.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mikki866847
mikki866847Plus
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StevenRost, I like your language-a-month system - thanks for the idea! I can't cancel my paid subscription - I paid for a whole year. I am sadly using Duolingo less since I was forced into crown system recently. I feel "lost" because I can't see the words in a lesson, and Practice doesn't tell me what lesson/words it gave me (in case I feel I need more of that lesson).

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CateDS
CateDS
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You could always try to ask for a pro rata refund... I would!

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ursulias
Ursulias
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They announced a refund - haven t checked my account yet. You should try. My subscription to DL Plus and the switch of my account to the crowns happened at the same time. I was deeply frustrated and demoralized. Additionally to the crowns I could NOT work offline on my mobile devices ( smartphone android and tablet iOS). My laptop did - once in a while - function offline, but did not let me change languages offline. My smartphone crashed and it was impossible for weeks to do DL on my mobile. BUT: there have been a couple of updates. My smartphone does DL again without crashing. Sometimes I can work offline AND the result has been synchronized and added to my DL account (before , all progress was lost when I went online again). And now the colors of the crown levels have been rearranged according to the level. Things seem to become better. I hope DL will reinstall the great function they abandoned with the switch to the crowns. If so, I will be happy to renew my subscription to DL.

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alkimeer
Alkimeer
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Hey Ursulias, where did you hear that they were gonna announce a refund from the crowns?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ursulias
Ursulias
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I just received the refund. The main feature (downloading units and working offline) did not work at all. So sad for DL, but this was unacceptable and it was not fixed for weeks. So I mailed my complaint to "support@duolingo.com". They answered immediately and very friendly.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/shramorama
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This is exactly how i felt. Lately my focus here has been all about getting enough XP to keep a streak.. and when i break it i take long leaves of grievance.. but i started using this site to learn languages, not play a game and only care about the points. The illusion that all progress has been lost and all levels remain never-ending is truly awful and i'm very overwhelmed and annoyed trying to 'catch up'... but i can't deny that this huge amount of repetition now enforced is actually a good thing. It hurts my brain and i don't want to struggle over and over again, but i'm LEARNING!! No longer repeating the well known lessons for XP, going back to the basics to start thinking again. The struggle is real, but the time and pain will be worth it :')

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fabriziom1
fabriziom1
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The crown system is great!

Skill decaying for me and for other users I know was extremely demotivating. Not everybody uses Duolingo everyday, and most people complement it often with other sources. So losing all the skills and having to repeat the basics 3000 times was just underwhelming. The great advantage of the crown system is that one can now work to advance the whole tree to 2nd or 3rd level, while still being able to do the keep track of the decaying skills with the "practice" button. And if you really want to have a visualization of the weak spots, you can always look at the "weak words" list!

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DaveNewhouse

WHat is your new approach to the tree? I am choosing to do it real slow so I can hammer it all into my litle head!! so first to level one then 2 etc... however I was recently traveling so went ahead on that skill for a bit.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dani120996

Look, I do not have the system for my original account so, because I was so interested in the new system and actually a bit hopeful about not having to repeat the same sentence every time I practiced a skill, I actually went and opened another account in order to check it out. Being able to use this new system I've got to say just one thing about it: it sucks. It sucks because it is tedious. It is ridiculous that i have to complete 9 lessons to get basic stuff up to the fourth crown (and you can say that I don't have to get it gold, but I tried to think like an advanced learner and get at least one medium skill up to the fourth crown, and upon reaching the third crown guess what? I had to do TEN lessons with the same content without any sort of hardening up whatsoever and they weren't even short quick lessons but actual ones with seventeen answers or more. Seriously, is this a joke? the sheer number of lessons one has to complete is not only discouraging but it is also insane. The only thing i kept thinking about while i was completing those lessons was all the thing I could better invest my time in rather than washing and repeating exercises. It would be actually nice if you added some new content (and I mean words) to each crown since you are adding so much workload to the actual course that ends up being so frustrating/unsatisfying.

Onto another thing that bothers me. Why, and I mean seriously, why did you take away the word lists of every lesson? what did they impede? They were very useful to keep track of the things one was learning and also sometimes I would just open up a skill and read all the lists to see which words I could remember easier. This way it is very unsatisfying and it grates on my nerves to not be able to know what I will be learning.

And don't get me started on the practices and no decaying skills. No decaying skills is really dumb, is like grabbing the whole foundation of Duo and hitting it with a hammer until there was nothing left of it. On the other hand I actually like to choose what I want to practice because sometimes the system would make me practice words that I remember all too well but would forget completely about reinforcing words that I did need to practice. This way I get no choice but to practice what the system wants. And for me this is a killing point. I like flexibility, I like being able to administer my learning myself and I like to know what I learn period. A system that doesn't give me that is a pointless waste of time for me.

Duolingo used to be nice when it started. It used to be a game that helped you to learn languages and you have been slowly but surely killing that with time. Immersion which was the coolest way to learn? Gone, Conjuction lists that helped a lot with tricky verbs and such? Gone, progress quiz? gone and now timed practice, fluency levels and word list for every lesson? gone. All Duolingo has been doing is taking away stuff that helped people learn and that's the reason why so many die-hard fans of it are leaving. You ask for feedback but you don't hear us out when we give it, so what the point of even asking for it?

Maybe it is time that we start voting with our feet as they say.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheHolyV

You are so right when you say " It is ridiculous that i have to complete 9 lessons to get basic stuff up to the fourth crown." I am looking at having to do 100xp just to get from crown 2 to 3 on the 4th lesson I ever did in German on DL. And that is just 1 lesson and 1 crown! That means that my completed tree would take YEARS to get to gold again with the crown system. But that time would not be well invested, because I am still not learning very much German after all, just uselessly doing over and over stuff (some of which is trivial now) which it's already well cemented in my head because I have already been at it for a year.

At this rate, for someone who is serious about speaking the language, DL will become useless before the tree and its crowns are complete: if it took you a year before to go from zero to a complete tree and roughly level 20, not it would take 3 or more years to get the tree complete and all crowns to 5, but actually you would not be learning anything MORE than before. And in 3 years you could invest that time a lot better in terms of language learning, because you really ought to move faster than the crown system if you actually ever want to speak the language. With the new system, in 3 years you still would only know very little but you would still be busy practicing ad nauseam some basic notions!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

That's how I am feeling too. I am bored with spending so much time doing the same thing over and over when it is already so incredibly simple. Surely there could be a "test out" feature or something?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Terry614373
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I totally agree with you. And why did they apply the “Health” wheel to everything, even lessons that had already been completed before this Crowns downgrade? Since my Spanish tree was previously all gold, I tried something out for grins. I went to the last skill and ran it up to a level 5 to see what it would do. It turned gold but didn’t effect any of the other skills. I have some very basic skills that are just level 1 because I tested out of everything that could be tested out of. Everybody wants to see a fully golden tree, but there’s no way I’m wasting my time getting to a level 5 on that basic stuff. I literally hate this new system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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I completely agree with you. Getting a gold crown next to your skill just isn't as appealing or visually distinctive as a fully gold skill. And I don't really see why they can't still do that. The first time you finish a skill it turns gold and you get a little coloured crown next to it with a 1 in it. When you reach crown level 2 it turns a different colour, and so on untill it reaches crown level 5 and the crown itself turns gold as well. Everybody wins, right?

And that gives a nice way to visually show skill decay too. First the colour of the crown starts to fade, then the colour of the skill starts to fade, the the crown goes completely grey, then the skill goes completely grey. That would work, right?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
Thomas.Heiss
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Good idea MasterYods!

I would keep the skill golden / non-golden colour when words decay and lose their strength - just like in the old system with the current SRS algorithm (which can be used 100% the same or improved in the future).

This has nothing to do with crown by itself.

Shouldn't L1 (L2/L3) crown levels - coming from L0 - already teach ALL words listed for lessons within a skill, even the exercises, challenges and sentences are easier on L1-L3 and not that difficult?

This was NOT always the case for the old system, where a few NEW words showed up on "strengthening".
But the implemented "skill gold" SRS vs word decay worked nevertheless....

If it is once implemented in this way, which I would prefer to learn (and review) NEW words, it would work with your suggestion.

If staff implements the "skill gold" SRS based on different words taught on different L1-L5 crown levels, then the latter would be much more difficult to implement.


Personally I would expect that you can choose for strengthen exercises (for a single skill or the global blue button) which crown level to strengthen (e.g L2, L3, more difficult L4/L5) or if you want to practice MIXED / random sentences from ALL of the L1-L5 crown levels.

I do not see a conflict with translation directions, exercise challenges or easy/basic vs longer/more difficult sentences if the code would uses these concepts.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tusiperu
tusiperu
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I'm pretty sure the only reason to do the Crown System is the high number of learners who finish the tree long before level 25. The only way to make people motivated to get there is to prevent them to acomplish gold so soon. I know I'm not so motivated.

I use a lot the words list for every lesson. I'm going to miss that. Fluency however I'm not: it isn't doing a good job. Courses like spanish I practice a lot I was almost the same level as italian I don't practice and I don't put that much effort.

Practice is not working well on getting words with less than 2 lines force being reinforce again. The only way I manage to reinforce words is redoing lessons (even the basics ones). So... Redoing basic levels? Not that big issue.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jwbards
jwbards
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Not buying it. I finished the Spanish and Swedish trees ages ago and was nearly done with the Russian. As the skills decayed I went back to keep my trees golden - typically a session or two each day. My plan was to start on the German tree once I finished the Russian one. I just spent an hour exploring the new crown system - back to "Soy una mujer", "en pojke", and "Это медик". What a waste of time. For 963 days I've been doing this every day - it'll take me longer than that to get back to where I was - and most of my crowns are at level three. Maybe level four is better - but it'll take me forever to get there. DL - CAN'T YOU PLEASE START US AT LEVEL FOUR IF OUR SKILLS WERE GOLDEN OR JUST NEEDED A TOUCH UP?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Exactly! Good point. I was nearly done with my tree and now to have to waste my time with basics is so boring!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alkimeer
Alkimeer
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I can pretty much agree with you. Just simply redoing the entire tree is just plain tedious with this new "crowns" update. I honestly find it a bit pointless and stupid, and there are no ups to it. It's basically just completing one skill... and doing it all over again three times! Like seriously, nine practice lessons?! I'd rather just stick with the decay thing and just go back to what Duolingo was a few days ago. It's basically a step in the wrong direction with this repetitive stuff. It's not good for me and many others simply because it's less motivating to disable your ability to review individual lessons and go over words you've learned and practice trying to get your skills golden again. It's not fun anymore It's unfair. I would honestly rather stick with the previous version than stick with this one.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Me too!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vlaus
vlaus
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This thread is so sluggish due to the sheer volume of complaints that it's taken me ten minutes to read some posts and then get back to the reply box!

Everything that is frustrating and upsetting about this system has already been said, so I won't repeat it all, but for people who have been working hard every day building their knowledge and practising their old skills, this is a massive kick in the guts and such an enormous step backwards that I am now Googling "Alternative to Duolingo". When I first started a couple of years ago, this was a great system for learning. The past couple of major changes have reduced its usefulness and my enjoyment/results.

Some have said that this system is probably much better for beginners. That may well be true, but it is definitely incredibly retrograde for older users.

A great pity, and I also find it incredibly disturbing to know that people who can afford to pay for a Plus account can avoid the "Health" horror. That's simply mercenary, and penalising those who take you at your word of being a free language learning site.

That really makes me sick to my guts, frankly. I don't want to support an organisation that has that kind of attitude.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wstockall
wstockallPlus
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I don't use Apple, but my understanding is that the "health" doesn't go away if you have a Plus account. Paying gets you access to offline lessons and gets rid of the ads, nothing more.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/fabriziom1
fabriziom1
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I don't have a pay account, by I feel that this system is much much better, especially for older users. Finally no need anymore to refresh over and over useless basic skills, and the possibility to advance them to a more challenging level!

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobCrownsSuck

Well said! I have had to go to level 5 because they announced "deeper learning" with new harder material. That's rubbish! All I have seen is a rehash of the content I had before, which whilst a drill rather than a challenge, at least made me think. Now I am making more mistakes, especially if I quit & repeat because I am bored by lack of challenge.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Solrac2791

Crowns 3, 4 and 5 of basic units should have a very limited amount of lessons. Just adding lessons to make it "long" is a waste of our time. Repetion and decay was the way of checking if we really remembered the stuff. The magic of Duolingo was to let one know when whatever one had learned was solid enough to continue incorporating words. That essential part has been lost.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alkimeer
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Here's really honest post about the new 'crowns' system: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/26862980

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JackRabbitEagan

This was helpful, but it didn't explain why so many of the skills don't actually get harder but just repeats old lessons as your crown increases.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
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The earlier skills do repeat a lot, but there's really not much you can do to make "I eat an apple" harder and more interesting. You have to work with present tense, short sentences and phrases, and limited vocabulary. However even those skills move from simple word bank exercises to "type what you hear" and "repeat what you hear" exercises - so while the content doesn't get very challenging, the presentation does, somewhat.

In the later exercises you actually get more difficult content that had been "retired" from the old format because it was "too hard" - learners repeatedly missed those exercises and statistics showed that they became discouraged. Retention and engagement suffered. In the new system, those sentences are brought out of retirement and given to us at the higher crown levels so the content actually does become more challenging.

Here's an example: in French, the adjective usually follows the noun. C'est un chapeau simple = It is a simple hat. But "simple" is a magical adjective. If I move it and place it in front of the noun, C'est un simple chapeau becomes "It is simply (merely) a hat."

This type of quirkiness is what makes language learning so rich, frustrating, rewarding, and alive. With the new crown system, casual learners can go through the tree to level one, and more serious learners with the time to invest can go through to level five if they like.

It sounds like they are watching how well the difficulty increase is working, also:

So far, we haven’t been hearing complaints that content is too difficult; the feedback has been that difficulty is effortless and natural or that it’s too easy.

I expect if they find that the difficulty increases are not significant enough they'll tweak that.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/speising
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i guess it simply wouldn't really have been necessary to add 5 CL to the basic lessions where, as you say, there isn't a lot you can do to increase difficulty.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wstockall
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In the case of the basic skills, I wonder how hard it would be to allow sentences from other completed skills that also demonstrate the more basic skills to be incorporated into higher crown levels. "I am a man" type statements, for example, can also be reinforced with a sentence like "I am a big man who likes to eat" that might show up in skills demonstrating adjective use or other types of sub-clauses.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Margolf

I agree that there's not much that could be done to make the very basic stuff more difficult - but they surely did not have to force everyone to repeat it when they've done it over and over and over and have been repeating it often enough all along to keep it golden. It just seems little effort was made to avoid putting people through a lot of repetition when it would have been very easy to avoid that

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/widle
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But you don't need to do it, right? Level 1 unlocks the next skills, if I understand it correctly.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

I agree. I am finding it so boring to have to go back to the beginning and do all these things that are really ridiculously easy.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Patty375219
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I agree there is not much to do for difficulty on the first levels, but maybe that is why it should not require 10 lessons of the almost exact same thing to level up a crown at the first ones. It does get really boring if you are down the tree.

I'd also like to suggest that the practice button could count as partial lessons for levelling up crowns, at least for the respective lessons that were exercised. For me, it is much more practical and enjoyable to practice past lessons using the Practice (both timed and un-timed) instead of going individually back on all of them.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/svrsheque

there's really not much you can do to make "I eat an apple" harder and more interesting.

nor can you make that linguistic gem actually make sense in most contexts, no matter how many crowns you put on it. wonder how many people's english is actually warped by this questionable, marginal-at-best use of the present simple, at least until they manage to unlearn what they learned.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Solrac2791

Another option is to make the number of lessons in those initial skills levels 4 and 5 much reduced in levels, so that with a bit quick reminder it is done. It is useless to have 12 lessons in the first skills if it is basically the same stuff again and again and again.

Also its a REAL PITY that Duolingo has not been capable yet of giving credit to words and phrases that are repeatedly used down the tree. So for example, if i have done "father" and "mother" a zillion times in a zillion other units, why keep them in initial levels as something to re-work? There is still a REAL issue with words from initial skills that are well used through the tree. I KNOW THEM! PROMISED! PLEASE FOCUS ON THE NEW ONES!

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobCrownsSuck

If that's true it's totally mad. I looked in words and some appear to be stuck, I have revised them but they stay looking weak. May be I accidentally tested out by catching that option on my phone and it removed them from spaced repetition as known; nothing I tried has changed their status.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Solrac2791

Initial skills could get harder by simply requiring the hardest form of exercise: write in the new language. Even simple can be challenging to write without a mistake, but it seems that level 5 still asks to translate into our native language. That is too easy, too boring, too discouraging.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lindakanga
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This is a period of adjustment for all of us. Including what is happening behind the scenes, in the incubator in content. There are also improvements, that have constantly gone on in maintaining courses, that are now changing tack to take advantage of these new developments where graduated and more difficult sentences are being added.
You have not lost any of the content you had previously. What it has opened up is we now have a whole new level of learning, that can be developed and released across all the courses.

As someone who is passionate about depth and breadth of learning, as well as engagement and interest for the learner, this is very exciting for me.

So - just like you, I am also watching this space (as well as engaged with improving it - as a volunteer) as content and presentation continues to be developed. ༠

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobCrownsSuck

If this is true, it shows a blatant disregard for paying customers! You rolled out an update to people like me, without anything to engage me, a high fluency learner who is not reliant on DL. I have had taken from me, the ability to repeat exercises to drill, instead I have to do huge number of boring lessons, which don't challenge me, with no way to go faster. All because of some luddites and the desire clearly shown by the info on Skills tree to aim at ONE segment of the user base. I am angry, because Crowns is wasting my time, I've paid for DL and I feel robbed, because the product I bought into has been destroyed by badly thought out, narrowly targeted changes, which undermine the whole point of using DL

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ElizabethKrispin

I have been studying for over 2 years and had turned two trees golden (English-German and German -English). I was getting bored with these German courses and was slowly beginning to learn Spanish. This change has given me the opportunity to learn much more of the German language (and to learn it more thoroughly). This is what I set out to learn in the first place. I had been doing pretty well on the German trees, and when they switched me over I was on mostly 3's on one and mostly 2's on the other. This change has made it possible for me to learn the German language more in depth and also made it much more interesting for me.

Thank you, and I am very sorry for those people who weren't in the same place as I was when the change happened.

It would have been very frustrating for me to be 90% there to making a tree all golden and then have all of my progress seemingly pulled out from under me!

Sortof like Charlie Brown with Lucy and the old football. Where she would pull it out from in front of him right when he was trying to kick. He always ended up flat on his back on the ground with the wind knocked out of him. :)

EK

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobCrownsSuck

Well I have scored masses of crowns in the German tree, as a past fluent German speaker who is revising, whilst learning Spanish as a new language. The new lessons aren't, it's all rehash and they've taken the challenging examples out of lower levels, meaning a boring slog through to level 4, to get back to where I was before this catostrophically stupid change. The level 5 skills have just made me angry, because of an insane amount of repetition, forced on me by an announcement promising "deeper learning" which in fact is NOTHING of the sort. I could repeat skills before, by choosing to redo them, they were MORE interesting than the new tree, as there was more vareity.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DodoJarmann
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I’m in the same situation with Swedish as you are with German. We need the test out option back for more advanced levels. So far Crowns seem fine for my new language, Spanish.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ontalor
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I do have one question. I depend a lot on SRS, so I'll still be using the Practice feature a lot. When we level up skills and it increases the difficulty of the exercises, when we then go to Practice, will the words that have higher skill levels unlocked require the more difficult exercises?

So essentially if I had the first half of the tree on level 5, and the second half on level 1, and went to do a Practice, it would give me easier exercises for the words I was weak on in the bottom of the tree than in the top?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
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A question I'd like answered too!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rogercchristie
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You lost me in the first line, Ontalor. What is SRS? And what is "the Practice feature"; isn't it all practice?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ontalor
Ontalor
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Spaced repetition software. Basically a smart algorithm for telling you when to review vocab words, so you see them less often as you remember them better.

I'm referring to the practice button on the right of your tree screen. Normally if you used that generic practice button, it would turn the skills you need to review gold again. With the new system, we don't know when we need to review words that we've already seen, making it harder to get them into your long term memory.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Solrac2791

I have a practice button but it takes me to the easiest words! Always word from the first ten lessons and im level 22 and fully gilded tree when converted... so a complete waste of time for me. Guess that if i spent a year doing only practice i would start to be offered difficult words again, but i have no idea how much it would take me so i dont bother.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIsDead

So my phone doesn't have an updated Duo Lingo app on it and still presents the old skills but today I did a general 'strengthen' exercise for German and I was confused because literally half the questions were "Die Straße".

And I mean all types of that question... Choos Der Die Das and type Straße, type what you hear in German Straße, tap the tiles to translate the words Straße, translate to English road etc etc etc.

Now I come to the site and see this Crown disaster... Sooooo is this the reason my exercises on my phone as well no longer make a lick of sense? I really hope this is not the case (please be a glitch instead) as I don't see how anyone could learn from this site anymore if its going to generate exercises like this.

Aditionally no clear decay means I might as well learn German on freerice com or make my own Ankhi deck just to get some sensible spaced repitition at my own skill level. The DuoLingo site now does not accurately tell me which areas of the language are in neglect nor does it seem to provide me with engaging exercises at my skill level.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/michaelsobsey55

I miss the preview feature from the old system. I saw the words which would be in the lesson and sometimes I used a French dictionary to define and practice pronunciation to prepare for the lesson. Now I have to jump right into the lesson with no idea what the words are. It is also okay, but I prefer the old preview and tips to no preview and no tips. I actually see no reason for its elimination. This said I love that I have all these new exercises to look forward to. I was getting concerned as I closed in on completing the tree that there would be no new lessons. When the crowns popped up one day I was very delighted to see them.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/pentaan
pentaan
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.... no tips .....

The grammar "Tips and notes" are still available in the desktop mode of www.duolingo.com
Picture: https://i.imgur.com/wWY1Fpf.png The light bulb takes you to the "Tips and Notes"

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TinaMorris4

How did I not see that light bulb before?!? It seems so obvious now. ETA: It is not available for all skills. I wanted to check something I was just assuming after completing Italian Conjuctions Level 1, but it is not there for that skill.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/flootzavut
flootzavutPlus
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Some of the skills don't have any notes to start with.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CateDS
CateDS
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Not overly helpful if, like me, the only reason one comes to the desktop mode is to submit a complaint or search the forums!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kenan820
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Agreed

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tiramisues
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I used it all the time too and made my flashcards from the wordlist before a lesson.

My workaround is making your own classroom then you can see the "curriculum" and have the words and tips and notes for all the skills in one place.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PotatoSanta
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I am glad Duolingo is trying new features and things but if they want to be more effective why don't they try to improve the quality of the courses themselves? Most are great especially the original ones. However, I sometimes get the feeling that some of the newer courses are rushed or neglected and that the preference has become quantity over quality. Some courses have no sound and it is starting to look like they never will, others are left with errors that never get fixed. The discussion area is full of feedback about what users do and don't like and what improvements could be made which could be useful constructing better courses in the future but this never seems to happen.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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You cannot allocate the resources that Duolingo has to any task. In order to work on a specific course, you need the specific qualifications (being fully proficient in the two languages involved, for example). This can be a problem in particular in languages that have few speakers.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PotatoSanta
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Swahili is in desperate need of work, according to Wikipedia there could be up to 100 million speakers at the very most, so I don't know what their excuse could be. There is still no sound and it really should not be out of beta. With constructed languages I get that there are few speakers but the Klingon contributors are still active and perfectly willing to do the recordings, yet they have to convince Duolingo to allow it. Chances are we will see more courses released without sound, which I find frustrating and less fun especially when you are constantly held back for answers that should be accepted. No sound and short trees that don't really teach much are no fun and in my opinion not sufficient.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
Heike333145Plus
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Swahili is in desperate need of work, according to Wikipedia there could be up to 100 million speakers at the very most, so I don't know what their excuse could be.

Sure, there may be many speakers of the language, but if they are not here, on Duolingo, and don't have the other qualifications required, and aren't willing to be contributors, this doesn't change a thing.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PotatoSanta
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In the end I think it is up to Duolingo to sort that out. If they were looking for people to help they should have been able to find some by now.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
Corinnebelle
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Most speakers of Swahili are probably in poverty and considering this a free site with volunteer course contributors, they may not have time to contribute to a course on Swahili.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lizsue
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See https://qz.com/921456/duolingo-launches-a-swahili-course-its-23rd-language/ about who got Swahili for English speakers into beta:

...The course was requested by the Peace Corps Tanzania program to help train Americans, and Peace Corps volunteers spent 18 months helping the company develop it...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/blueandnerdy
blueandnerdy
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They don't need Swahili speakers--they need native English speakers to make the course usable with correct spelling and grammar.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lizsue
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Here's how they found people to help for English for Ukrainian speakers, Ukrainian for English speakers, Swahili for English speakers, and Guarani for Spanish speakers: https://technical.ly/dc/2016/06/03/peace-corps-duolingo-language-courses/

If you're wondering why the United States Peace corps made a Guarani for Spanish speakers course, maybe it's because the enlistees they send to work for a few years in Paraguay need to learn Spanish anyway as well as Guarani so why not let them practice their Spanish while learning the other required language?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lizsue
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For some of the courses, Duolingo has a partnership with the U.S. Peace Corps, which has also been teaching languages since before Duolingo existed.

Swahili for English speakers is one of these courses.

Duolingo needs to get back in touch with the Peace Corps about Swahili, not just hope for applications from random volunteers

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/UweRo
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Yes the swahili is realy a mess. I haven't seen a message from duolingo, hey we need some native speakers. I like duolingo and the idea of free learning but in this case i think it's just neglience.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/giorgishen1

Yeah, but Japanese is pretty popular language overall. It's massively popular on duo, too, in spite of being beta. I think it's top 7th or something like that, but the tree is short and unfinished. I know it's in beta and all, but it's being in beta stage for months and it'll still not make the tree any longer. I appreciate volunteers work (Thank You), but Duo should take it more seriously

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HalJam
HalJam
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8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Terry614373
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I got the option, but the wording used for encouraging the selection to change was misleading. I want to switch back so badly, I could cry.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HalJam
HalJam
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8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIngTheThing
DuoIngTheThing
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HalJam - I didn't get an option. When I logged in today, DuoLingo was a totally new owl to me.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Danmoller
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Duolingo works with AB tests:

  • A group of users get the new features
  • Another group keep the old features

Then they measure internally which group is learning better, which group spends more time practicing, and which group is abandoning Duolingo more often.

Crowns was not different. They just gave someone the option to "participate" in the test "before a decision was taken".

Probably because this change was too big to just randomly push into old users without they knowing it.

Now they have the test results and they know Crowns really improved their metrics, they've decided that this new feature is a success (it passed the test), and instead of cancelling it (which is what happens with features with bad metrics) they are adopting it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HalJam
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8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/-.Andrew.-
-.Andrew.-
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Very nicely explained, Dan.

Concise and keeping anything extraneous out.
Thank you!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Multi0Lingual4
Multi0Lingual4
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Still don't like the fact that timed practice is not available until the fifth crown...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tranklements
Tranklements
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I have timed practice at every crown level. If you are using the web version of duolingo with Chrome, try the strengthen skills pro extension, https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/duolingo-strengthen-skill/ggooojmooaenngobdaacnpmonmdgfakl?hl=en

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lisa454630

Is it just me or is it not ridiculous that we, the people that support this app and keep it alive, have to find ways to make IT work for us? It was simple and it did work. In one foul move, all of a sudden we are all looking for hacks. It’s ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/thbeefos

While this information does clarify a lot about the new system, the removal of skills decaying is very concerning, as that's what I rely on to maintain my knowledge. It's not really necessary to reinvent the entire wheel, so to speak. I hope that this particular aspect will be reconsidered, as consistent practice is necessary when learning a language, and I worry that the removal of this feature will make it harder to learn efficiently as it becomes more about grinding levels rather than actually learning and maintaining the language skills.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lisaskier

Whilst "Crown" will be a great learning tool for someone just starting out with Duo, for those of us who have been here for some time it is VERY boring & repetitive.

It would have been so much better if , when forcing this change upon us, Duo could have implemented a different start point for those who had already achieved Level 25.

Repeating the basics is great & necessary, but not to this mind-numbing extent.

I am bored out of my mind!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AureliaUK
AureliaUK
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I've only had Crowns for 2 days and I'm already bored out of my tree(s) with the endless repetition. Its absolutely bloody soul-destroyingly tedious.

I can't see me sticking around much longer. Four years ago this site and its approach worked for me. Now it doesn't.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fitt3
Fitt3
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We can only hope for the best

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lisaskier

You are absolutely right :]

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bookrabbit
bookrabbit
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I am concerned that it will now be too difficult/time consuming to run through a tree to refresh my memory after not using it for a while. I used to quickly use the app to regild a tree to bring it all back to the forefront of my mind before then using the website to review more challenging material later in the tree. Then you neglected the kindle app to the point of uselessness so I did it by repeating lessons instead, which now won't be possible. I would like to be able to use timed practice for this but because the time is so short and I have arthritis and can't type fast enough with my one finger approach this doesn't work at all. I simply don't have time to answer more than one or two questions even when i don't make any typos.

I have a feeling that you have been testing many aspects of crowns on me without the crowns as the questions have been getting more difficult and the lessons contain many more of them. While I like this once I have brushed up on a language and am ready to progress it it is disheartening to have each lesson take so long that it becomes a chore when I am not ready for it. This is especially discouraging on a tree which hasn't had many alternatives added so you have to memorize the exact sometimes poorly phrased answer in order to get it right even when you understand perfectly well what the sentence means. A single lesson shouldn't take twenty minutes as it makes it harder to fit duolingo into available time. I have been having trouble staying awake during sessions sometimes!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheHolyV

I totally agree with this

I am concerned that it will now be too difficult/time consuming to run through a tree to refresh my memory

My completed tree looked almost all gold. All it would have needed to be all gold would have been 70-100xp at most. Now it seems to require several THOUSAND xps to be considered "complete" again. In essence, I have to put as much effort in it again as I have already put in to complete the course, but a lot of that time will be spent on lessons which are way too basic for me now. A massive, massive task but with no incentive to do it because I would be wasting time on trivial information!

Plus, honestly we all know that Duolingo can take you only until a certain point with learning a language. And that point is quite basic. I think the app was more honest in its previous version, when that was acknowledged by the amount of time you need to complete the tree and then you were supposed to reviewed it every now and then to keep everything gold... but for the rest you were rightfully on your own to bring yourself to the next step. Now they seem to think they can teach you WAY more and yet the lessons have remained the same... they just demand ten times the time it takes to complete the tree. This is NOT conducive to learn a language properly!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/daffodil2015
daffodil2015
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Particularly since the content does NOT become more difficult as you progress. I've turned my Crown 3 in Participle to a Crown 4 and in all six lessons I've seen at most six participles (dedicado, sentado, publicado, cocinado and I don't even remember the last two). Plus which, the lessons had errors in them. For instance "the neighbor is seated" does not accept "el vecino", it only accepts "la vecina".

It's not like the content has changed dramatically so as to warrant such time and effort being spent. Totally unhappy with being forced into Crowns - yes, in the short term I did spend more time on Duo because I was curious to see if indeed the lessons get more difficult as advertised, but I'm pretty sure I won't waste my time trying to get to Crown 5 in Basics. In the long run... hmmm, don't think I'll spend (waste) my time redoing the same lessons just to make them Crown 5 and perennial :D

*Later edit - there are about eight, not six participles, and the lessons in level 4 are exactly the same - EXACTLY the same as those in level 3. This is getting more ridiculous the more time I spend on it :( That's why they don't advise getting to level 5 in one go, because then you realize exactly just how few lessons there are and how they are repeated - i.e. no new content, no increased difficulty, just a trick to get people to spend more time redoing the same things over and over again. Really disappointed with this new forced feature.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/doctorwhoo
doctorwhoo
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I thought it was a problem with not so popular trees like Japanese for instance, but seeing that even in Spanish, the most advanced Duo course, the lessons don't really get more difficult, that's kinda saddening.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wstockall
wstockallPlus
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I don't really think Spanish is "the most advanced Duo course". There are some features that are available for Spanish that are not available in some other trees (stories, chat bots, for example), but the main language tree needs a lot of work. Apparently there is a new version being alpha tested, but it's not yet available to the masses.

I have gone through the French tree, the German tree and the Spanish tree. Both of the others are better than the Spanish one. The English for Spanish speakers tree was much better than the Spanish for English speakers.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HurOV7SG

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I liked being able to go back and strengthen certain skills. I haven't the time or the energy to go right back to having to complete lessons like 'I am a boy' when what I wanted was to move on to slightly more complicated language skills. I do appreciate that there is a limit to what Duolingo can do and that the fluency bar was pretty useless, but the rest of the system seemed to work well.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/carolin_o
carolin_o
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@bookrabbit, You make a really important point about the accessibility of the timed lessons. Tangentially, People who had to switch from one keyboard to another had a similar complaint, as did people who simply don't type so fast or accurately in any language. By the way, that's probably one major cause of the failure of longer sentences. Back to the real point: I haven't seen a forum at all regarding accessibility / (UD (user design, not UX - usability) and there should be one somewhere.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dlhgl
dlhglPlus
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In case you don't have the time to finish a lesson at once, maybe a workaround is to leave the app or browser window open and continue at a later time?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/the_faeldy
the_faeldy
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Just my 2 cents:

I have the feeling that you guys at duolingo either don't care about the negative impacts of your features on the learning process of people or that you draw the wrong conclusions from your A/B test numbers. (don't get me wrong, I have no idea, how your decision process looks like, but as an IT-guy myself, I know how this works). With the crown system I see the same situation repeating we had with the health-system. You guys did A/B it looked nice, people complained for serious reasons, it was rolled out, it was a mess and still is (Still have it on my iPhone). I don't want to say, that you don't know what you are doing, but at least you should consider taking the feedback seriously in your A/B Test results. Because let's be honest, "staying longer on the app/site" does not indicate that your feature i good, it could also say, that people spent more time, because it's too complicated. And now that you basically remove SRS (people won't use the review button that much, if it doesn't indicate visually, that there was something to review) duolingo becomes just a vocab trainer, where you are supposed to get stronger in skills, but they don't tell you anymore if you should revisit them. Nice feature, that you can become stronger in the skill, but please, don't remove the decay. How should I know, that I forgot words or grammar? That's what SRS is for and that's why it's so awesome. The thing about why I'm so angry with that is, that since I'm here on duolingo I saw lots of half-baked, half-mature and buggy features be rolled out for the benefit of the users and in most cases it didn't improve the learning process at all (like the health system,). On the other hand, features that are wanted and need (like the sentence discussion on iPhone, or tips and notes/the whole skill grammar section on mobile) are consequently ignored and die out. I know, that software has to evolve and that sometimes you do make mistakes and than you learn from it and re-iterate over it to make it better, both for the users and the company/developers. I'm missing the learning from mistakes here a bit and the "we hear you and we do something about it". And yes it's a platform for free and yes you are doing a great job. but still there is this bitter taste thinking about that I recommended duolingo to a lot of people around me, because it was not one of the crappy sites out there, that I really enjoyed mastering the massive Norwegian tree (takk til det norske teamet ❤️), that I could learn, what I wanted to, languages. And now the fun for me decays, because my learning experience suffers a bit from all this "benefits".

but enough of the rant, my coffee is ready. Please enjoy the nice easter-monday (which is a bank holiday in Germany, hooray!)

ps: and for the fluency: don't use an arbitrary percentage. what you could do: cluster the skills in categories of the CEFR, so that you get A1 after the first shortcut and A2 after the second and so on. At least that would give a shortcut a more meaningful function than just hopping over

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Deliciae
Deliciae
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As always:

Bare hyggelig! :)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sgt.Burden
Sgt.Burden
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Tusen takk til det norske teamet og særlig til deg for deres unendelig hjelpsomhet!

Now I see what you meant by the new crown system, when I asked you about it like two weeks ago :). But I have to admit, after the introduction to crowns, I'm seriously considering ditching the Norwegian course all together and dropping my 500+ day streak. The Norwegian tree is absolutely fantastic and entertaining. It was already extensive before with around 110 skills, but now with the crowns I'm looking at tedious work of probably many years to get everything back to golden again. Before mostly only the lower skills decayed and I felt I was able to keep up with the decay of lessons more or less, but with the crowns now implemented, repeating the very first basic lessons so many times strikes me as not very productive.

Maybe it's just the resistance to change, but before Duolingo was a fun game to play with plenty of incentive to keep everything golden and come back day by day, but suddenly all that seems gone and be replaced by a feeling of being overwhelmed and slightly frustrated. Many of the comments I've read so far tend to agree: for experienced users the crowns turned fun into tedious work.

Ironically, all the amazing work you've put into the Norwegian tree to make it so wonderfully extensive, now exacerbates the problem with the crown system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Deliciae
Deliciae
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Bare hyggelig! :)

The Crowns have been dropped on our head without a road-map or suggested way of progressing through them, so we each have to find something that works for us.

Personally, I think the most ineffective and soul-crushing thing one can do, is to go back to basics and start raising all the skills from 1 to 5 in one go. No spaced repetition, and more memorisation of whole sentences than actual learning. Unfortunately, that's what the new system seems to tempt a lot of people into doing.

A better approach would be to start at the skill where you feel the course starts giving you a challenge. For someone who was previously halfway through the tree, that might be after the first checkpoint, while for an advanced learner such as yourself that may be after the third or fourth checkpoint. Work your way up from that skill either by doing one crown level and then moving on, or by making up some rules for yourself. For example, you could say that you're not allowed to move on before you can pass the lessons without making any genuine Norwegian mistakes. Typos are fine, but if you mess up or misinterpret the Norwegian you have to keep working on that skill.

The lack of visual cohesiveness in the new system is an issue, and I understand that people miss having a golden tree, even though I never kept mine quite as shiny. However, this is one of the easiest things for Duo to fix, and one that would appease a lot of users, so if I were to wager a guess I'd say that it will make a return. All they need to do is decide upon a colour for each level, could be green -> blue -> bronze -> silver -> gold, for instance. In the meantime, why don't you draw up your own tree and colour it in as you progress? It's a powerful visual motivator.

Oh, and don't you dare quit on me before you hit level 25 - you're so close you should already be thinking about buying that bottle of champagne!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/the_faeldy
the_faeldy
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Well I hope they will grab this low hanging fruit and make it return. This is probably why I'm a bit emotional with it, it was more or less dropped and I have no real feeling how to progress in the new system without doing endless repetitions of skills. What I liked was, that I could just hit the button, and I could foster my knowledge in a broad way, remember stuff I missed f.eks. Now it seems so narrowed down, reduced to the point of earning crowns. I don't want to ditch duolingo completely, but the motivation to level up/redo the tree is now reduced to a real low flame with crowns. I'm curious if duo's product staff will keep it like it is or change some parts of it

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Deliciae
Deliciae
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Yes, I understand that, and I hope you find a way to make it work while we're waiting for improvements.

And if not, a Duo break doesn't have to be a bad thing - as long as you keep practising through other methods. If you stop practising Norwegian altogether though, I will not be pleased!

Having been around for a while, I can say that the only constant here is change, so I have no doubt this is but the first iteration of Crown Levels. Changes will be made, and hopefully for the better. :)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

Deliciae notes: "without a road-map or suggested way of progressing through them". When I got crowns on 19 March, that was my biggest question (among others), and I raised it here to ask how we transition to crowns: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26635736 I was disrupted for a couple of days, but then discovered https://duolingo.eu/GrahamWarr/progress/ so I'm back on track now, working on skills that I need to strengthen. I realize that there is a lot of repetition at the moment, which is putting people off, but I'm simply ignoring the more basic lessons. I suspect that this change to crowns was to introduce an improved framework future learning. I think we'll eventually see improved content and increasingly difficult lessons across all the languages (from what I've seen in discussions, perhaps that has already happened for French?). However, the initial release seems to have simply populated the advanced crowns with a duplication of lessons very similar to those in the lower levels. I'm going to be optimistic, but some formal communication on the road map to the future would help.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sgt.Burden
Sgt.Burden
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Som alltid: Takk for ditt raske og omfattende svar, Deliciae!

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. To not feel overhelmed by the vast amount of choices I have now by the system that has been dropped on our heads (instead of the very clear indication which selected few skills to keep golden before), I need to come up with my own system and rules regarding spaced and useful repetition.

Alas I'm not going to celebrate with champagne, as I don't like to drink any alcohol ;). Kanskje skulle jeg rangle med brunost i stedet :P?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Deliciae
Deliciae
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Bare hyggelig!

There are few people who care more about making the new system work than those actually tasked with teaching through it.

"Brunost" is a solid choice, especially on waffles, and I'd also recommend some "lefse" or "bløtkake".

Now excuse me while I raid the kitchen...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/the_faeldy
the_faeldy
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I will probably thank you again, it still affects my love for norwegian.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rogercchristie
rogercchristie
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Er ... what is SRS?

I looked it up but only found:
- Service Registry Service. SRS is a broker process that identifies and registers all printers on a network. This allows the printers to be easily accessed and managed, while reducing network traffic.

Surely that isn't what you meant.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/the_faeldy
the_faeldy
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It's spaced repetition software. It's the foundation of a lot of learning software. It's purpose is that you don't review each single word/phrase each day again and again. Instead it will organise the learned terms in kind of boxes/buckets and each time you answer correctly it will move the term in an "advanced box" and if you did a mistake, it will move the term one box back. The boxes itself are usually labeled like "in 5 minutes", "in 24h", "in one month" and so on. That allows you to increase the timespan between repetition (the space) from one round to another. At duolingo it was indicated by the skill decay, which was telling you that terms has to be reviewed and if you correctly finished the review, it didn't aks you to review the skill until let's say another week.

TL;DR: it's a system to learn terms based on correct/incorrect answers and times the review other than just learn the term each day (basic vocabulary trainer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ALLintolearning3
ALLintolearning3
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At least Memrise still uses it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/the_faeldy
the_faeldy
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Indeed it does. But that's why I loved duolingo, it was an SRS system like Memrise but with good content, notes and tips, etc. etc.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Agave9

Well, I'm sad. I got crowns today. I really have no clue how I'm going to continue to learn on Duolingo. I have been going very slow and steady. I liked to keep my tree golden and only then move on to something new. I wanted to understand things before I moved on. Without spaced repetition and skill decay I'm not sure how comfortable I'll be trying to move down the tree. And yes, I know, they say they're working on spaced repetition. However, I hold out no hope that what they come out with will work for me.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fitt3
Fitt3
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It's a sad day for non-beginners

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/-.Andrew.-
-.Andrew.-
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Truly...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Well said!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

Believe me, it's ❤❤❤❤ for beginners too....

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

There have been several comments today saying that spaced repetition and skill decay has gone, but it hasn't. It's just not so easily visible anymore. If you look at https://duolingo.eu/Agave9/progress/ it will show you your strength in each skill. Full strength skills will show as 100%, even if you don't have 5 Crowns in that skill. Having just completed my tree (Italian) when Crowns came in, I wasn't sure how to proceed. I was assigned 1 Crown in each skill. Having discovered duolingo.eu, I decided to use the skill strengths shown there to guide my future work. When a skill decays below 100%, I do a lesson or 2 in that skill, and it returns the strength to 100%. That way, I'm focusing my effort on skills on which I need to work, rather than spending time on skills that are already strong.
FWIW, since I first completed my tree, 13 skills near the top of the tree have never decayed, so I haven't spent any time on those.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lethe-DFD

That's really not useful if you're using the app at all though. It's not really useful to have decay if you're not able to easily view it... But in the short term, I do appreciate the tip.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/territech
territech
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I find this extremely helpful. I can quickly identify my weakest sections, click on the skill name to open a page to work on that section. When all are at 100%, then I can try to acquire more crowns and see if I find that useful. From now on, this page will be my starting point.

A lingot for you!

That link opens to the Spanish tree. How do I see the data for the other trees?

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/niahrya
niahrya
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I think it's depending on which language you have as the currently active one. e.g., I have Italian and Portuguese (for English speakers). When I have done some work on my Italian tree and open the link, it shows me data for the Italian language. If I switch to my Portuguese tree and do some work there, the link will display the related data of the Portuguese language.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/territech
territech
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You are correct, Niahrya. Thank you for the response.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HumaShaz
HumaShaz
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Thanks for the incredible tip. It was a life saver. Now, I have something to look forward to in Duolingo.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/A.Igor
A.Igor
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Thanks for the link, really helpful!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Agave9

Thanks

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rogercchristie
rogercchristie
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I don't understand what you are saying, GrahamWarr. What is the reference "If you look at https://duolingo.eu/Agave9/progress/ it will show you your strength in each skill." It seems to have no bearing on my activity in Spanish, so whose is this data? Do I have to modify the reference somehow to make it relate to my account?

OK, I see Agave9 is the person (up the page) that you were replying to. So when I substitute my own user name I get a similar table for my own Italian course. What about Spanish, French, and German?

This stuff is all entirely new to me --- and I have been following Duolingo courses for four years! What other useful stuff am I missing that DL seems to have been hiding from us?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Agave9

Whichever language you are currently on will be displayed on https://duolingo.eu/rogercchristie/progress/. Simply switch languages and refresh https://duolingo.eu/rogercchristie/progress/ to see your other languages' progress.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/speising
speising
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I understand that your metric for success in A/B tests is how long a user uses the service (=how many ads they see). But a more useful metric for us learners would be how well we remember the content, how well we speak the language.

All of the metrics you mentioned only mean the users did more work, which is basically the opposite of what we we want, unless all that work really pays off.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
Lrtward
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They do measure how well we remember the content. In fact, this is what is used in deciding whether we are at level 1, 2, or 3 when we get moved from the old system to the new system.

Once in the new system, our ratio of correct/incorrect responses plus time since last exposure is what determines what we see when we do timed practice.

How well we remember content is one of the key metrics (if not THE key metric) behind Duolingo. That, along with gamification, is what makes Duo so effective.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/carolin_o
carolin_o
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Uh, this seems nonsensical. How well we remember content is not used in deciding whether we are at level 1, 2 or 3 for at least one common set of circumstances. Languages I was already well-versed in before Duolingo came along were converted at level 2 even if I went back and did refreshers recently. Remember that lots of people test out of things because they have real deep knowledge of part of the basics -before- beginning the lessons. It appears to me that has not been credited in the shift; in fact, it's been penalized. Something is very off in your descriptions. I think statements like this that are so out of sync with outcomes in people's experience explain why some of the mods get a reputation of being salespeople.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DaireOBroi

Hear hear! Bring back test out!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
Lrtward
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Good point. Duolingo can only track how well we remember words in exercises we do on Duolingo. Duolingo has no knowledge of how well we know a language outside of the application. That's why a native English speaker could have only 8% English fluency under the old fluency meter - Duo can only measure what's done on Duo.

So if we test out or go through early lessons with zero mistakes, all that Duo knows is we've seen it once, no mistake. If they don't already do it, the developers could probably improve their algorithm by weighting test-out exposure more heavily than new lesson exposure.

I can see why mods sometimes come across as salespeople. We're pretty passionate about this project and that probably influences how we view things.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HalJam
HalJam
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8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/daffodil2015
daffodil2015
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I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with Lrtward. They do not measure how well we remember the content, or else I would have been in crown level 5 for most skills. I've had several hundred lessons without a mistake (unless you count those that I reported and eventually manage to get accepted - so it was the system's mistake, not mine). I've done all of them in timed practice, because that's how I learn best, when I'm challenging myself. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just saying that the system doesn't actually measure users' knowledge or recall accurately. I don't mind I was put in level 3, because I really don't care about hierarchy here, but I suspect that more competitive users will find this rather annoying.

As for gamification, it works when the game is interesting and/or challenging. This new system is neither. I am sure that I'm not going to endlessly repeat the same lessons just to get to level 5. And I know the lessons are the same, because I just tested the system tonight. So as far as I'm concerned, if Duo doesn't provide new content, the tree can stay colored - it's actually prettier this way.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CateDS
CateDS
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"They do measure how well we remember the content. In fact, this is what is used in deciding whether we are at level 1, 2, or 3 when we get moved from the old system to the new system."

So then - really? I have to go back to zero crowns, zero lessons in my VERY FIRST section, to re-learn "yes" and "no"??? Ummmmm no! I have submitted two reports to the help desk in the last week, saying I had lost all my lessons (before transitioning to crowns), and go no response at all... and now still!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/speising
speising
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so they use the data once for conversion, and then when you have everything up to CL5? and what about the time in between? you know, the things that are actually new, the crown levels? all those countless lessions from CL 2 or 3 up to 5 seem to be fixed, not dynamic.

i agree that the dynamic nature of the system is key in making DL effective, which is why it's sad to see they took that big step back when implementing the new system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zekecoma

You're finally getting rid of the stupid fluency meter? About time.

NOTE: I am not attacking, just really genuinely curious.

I don't really see the point of this feature to be honest. Just seems like a waste of effort, when you have the users who really don't care about language learning will continue to use the mobile and not get more crowns, while the serious ones will continue to use the desktop and get more crowns. In the end, they're really just going to use it the same way before the crowns came. Seems pretty pointless, if you think about it.

At the end of the day, the easier you make it, the less the end user is going to retained any information from Duolingo.

The mobile app is dumbed down with just multiple choice and putting the words in order. Multiple choice gives it away too easily because all you gotta do is look for the most obvious problem and get it right. Fridge magnets is easy to figure out due to the capitalisation of the beginning and the punctuation.

Last but not least, you removed the dual translation. I guess, this was planned to keep the user on the site longer, by forcing them to use the reverse tree? Without having the ability to do dual translation between base and target, you removed the ability to recall and actually think on using the language. Are you at least bringing this feature back when you get the full crown set?

I wish y'all would stop breaking what isn't broken. Every major update to the site seems to keep making it worse and worse.

Examples, mobile app is so dumbed down that it's too simple to benefit from it. You removed the dual translation. Now, what made the site better than the mobile, is now being replaced with crowns, and now you don't know when to improve on a specific skill using practice. You just gotta do it until you feel like not doing it for the day.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thebenoch

"I wish y'all would stop breaking what isn't broken. Every major update to the site seems to keep making it worse and worse."

Agreed 100%. With every ridiculous adjustment, I feel like they are daring me to quit using this program. I think they're angling to make a profit, and the language-learning bit is becoming more and more of a simple gimmick to get people in the door.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lexbroch

I so agree with this!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
Lrtward
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The mobile app is dumbed down with just multiple choice and putting the words in order.

Do you have your mic and speakers enabled? On my Android device, at the lower levels I get a lot of word bank and similarly easy exercises. By crown level 5, though, the multiple choice options are not as obvious, and I'm asked to type what I hear and repeat the phrase quite a bit. I also translate into the target language more at higher crown levels.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mereade
Mereade
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I agree with zekecoma, that the app is too dumbed down, I don't use it anymore despite it being seemingly more practical (using Duolingo just on the go and putting the learning time at home into more serious activities).

Listening and speaking exercises are a bad idea and no fix, as they remove the most positive aspect of the mobile app: being practical on the go. A mobile app is for the empty moments in a train, on a bus, while standing in a queue, or during a boring lecture. And those are all situations in which I definitely don't want to make noises with any app.

It is great to hear there should be more difficult exercises overall, and I'll need to have a look at the crown system first before giving any feedback (I am still in the old system), but the noise based exercises shouldn't be a central part of the higher levels.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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You can remove the listening and speaking excercises on the app. It's under profile settings, which you can access under clubs, for some reason.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mereade
Mereade
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OK, but then what is left in the levels 4 and 5, as Lrtward mentions the listening based exercises as the main content of the upper levels? Is there enough content even without that?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lizsue
lizsue
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Yes, I already turned off the listening and speaking exercises and turned off the "sound effects" option but the iOS app version still speaks the the Spanish sentence out loud for the typing and word bank exercises when it gives me a Spanish sentence to type into English (well, for Spanish for English speakers - it speaks the English out loud for English for Spanish speakers). How can I turn that sound off?

So far it's been impossible to completely mute the Duolingo app without completely muting the entire phone including the rings to let me know I have an incoming call (I'd really rather not have to switch back and forth between dialtones and vibrate just to use an app).

Fortunately, I can still go to duolingo.com on the web browser on my phone instead of using the app, but then I don't get any other app features.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/davidcwalls
davidcwalls
Mod
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In addition to MasterYods comments (turning off listening or speaking exercises permanently), there is a link on all listening and speaking exercises that lets you turn off that kind of exercise for an hour. I find this works nicely when I am on a train, but also lets me do those exercises when I'm in an appropriate environment.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hermesianax
Hermesianax
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What do you mean with "dual translation"? Isn't translation always dual, as you translate from one language to another? And I thought the idea behind the skill levels was to offer more translation to the target language, so isn't that exactly what you want?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zekecoma

Dual translation: for example Translation English sentence into German, and German sentence into English.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hermesianax
Hermesianax
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But that would mean there's a discrepancy between your experience and what DuoLingo has been claiming about more translation to the target language. This would simply not make any sense, as this has been a central part of the reason for DL to overhaul the system. So in your experience, there isn't any translation into the target language, am I correct in understanding that?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/daffodil2015
daffodil2015
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@Hermesianax - So I just "reached the maximum level" in participles in Spanish (from CL3) - the lessons are exactly the same for both CL3 and CL4. Same participles (about eight of them), same phrases. No new content, very little translation in the target language. Duo's claims are not standing up to scrutiny, unfortunately.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Klgregonis
Klgregonis
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The translation to or from the target language seems to depend on the language being learned. I'm working on Welsh now, and it seems to be really well balanced. I always have a fair number of translations to the target language. And from the language is important, to insure you understand the target language.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
Corinnebelle
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What's dual translation? What will we lose with crowns?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ding1dong123

We wont, it's just in higher skill levels.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zekecoma

Dual translation: for example Translation English sentence into German, and German sentence into English.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dasi_
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Have to agree. This is everything I wanted to say and more. Using mobile is practically useless now and that’s the most annoying part of it. Practice on the site has always been better but mobile was useful however now use my iPad to go to the full site and don’t even bother with the app. Gets annoying with the iPad asking would I rather open the app...No iPad. No I would not.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SverkerJanson

Wow. This was a huge and disappointing setback. I do not under any circumstances want to get into mindless grinding on old skills, which clearly does not take into account my current level: "un hombre, una mujer" - give me a break. I have been practicing Spanish daily for a year and a half. Maintaining the trees golden has continued to support my learning while graduating to other material and conversation. The motivational signal of having skills that need to be regilded has been invaluable. Also, in my parallel more leisurely learning of Chinese, with a new lesson only here and there, the regilding of skills has been a daily positive feedback, helping reinforce the sense of consolidation and progress, even when learning at a slower space.. In both cases, regilding has been just the right amount of daily work. I DON'T want to have to think about where to practice or how much. This is what SRS is for. I DON'T want to have to do a large number of mindless repetitions for a skill to get a positive feedback signal. The regilding was perfect. I guess there is no going back for you, but you have a steep uphill now to ensure to regain my trust and keep me as a paying user. My advice: Focus on the Practice button and make sure that it can drive all progress in an SRS manner after having taken a lesson for the first time. Make it introduce more advanced material automatically, as seems appropriate. Perhaps Duolingo can get out of this trough of despair and be good again. Perhaps better. Please read this.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kimiboru

My thoughts exactly. I really liked using the practice feature and the decaying to go back to topics from time and again, especially when I get some words which I don't remember. But now if everything stays static and the practice button has no visible effect, then what's the point? (At least that's how I understand the new system.)

I've been doing the German tree for years, and actually it has been a bit of a hassle as I get most of the stuff correct anyway. But preventing skills from decaying and getting back to old words felt like useful. Why would I want to keep practising German now? I will just focus on Chinese or something daily and only do new topics, plus one or two German practices in a week. And I don't like the sound of that. Sure, I could decide to just practice more by default, because I want to better my language skills, bla, bla. But then I would just grab a language book and/or use memrise. Where's the game in that?

I still love you Duo. But please motivate me to practice more German! Pretty please!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Klastiron
Klastiron
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I miss being able to see words in each lesson.

We can consider bringing it back in some form, but right now we think investing in better ways to see and practice words makes more sense.

Ouch, that will be the main thing that I will dislike about the change. Before I begin each new lesson, I write down the words from the new section and look them up in the dictionary. I then write the gender if the word is a noun, and also write the plural form of the noun. I then write the translation(s) of the word next to that. It's how I've been using Duolingo for over the past 4 years.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ken372110

Me too, not being able to revisit the word list is very very bad.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sparkleimp

I haven't been using Duolingo for very long at all, but yeah, that does seem like a very foolish change on behalf of Duolingo's part. I hope that option comes back some time.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Marninger
Marninger
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I have been a big fan of D.L. for several years, primarily using the desktop interface to study Italian, - but this new greatly improved version has made me dispare.

I understand that you are only trying to improve and make D.L. more effective and fun. And I do not miss the skill level, - it really was pretty useless anyhow. I can also understand and sympathise with that you have hidden the "Tips & tricks" behind a symbol, - to make the interface less cluttered .

I also think Crown Levels as such is a very good Idea, - but why force them on users? And why take away the possibility for users to go back and repeat lessons until they themselves feel they are ready to try another crown level? I think this is a very contra productive change.

But then again perhaps it is just me, - I am old and slow and I do need to repeat each lesson several times to make them stick. But as D.L. is working now at least for me it is very much harder to improve my language skills.

In fact it is so hard I started to look for other ways to do it . . .

But I like D.L. and therefore suggest:

  1. You reintroduce the possibility for users to go back and repeat lessons, - at least on ther current Crown Level

  2. You introduce the the possibility for user themselves to decide when to try for a new crown level.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hermesianax
Hermesianax
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but why force them on users? And why take away the possibility for users to go back and repeat lessons until they themselves feel they are ready to try another crown level?

I think because DL wants to motivate users to actually move forward in learning a language. Repeating basics 1 ten times is not progress.

Please do not take this as disrespect and I can understand that your old age might make learning a language a bit slower, but don't you think you're also underestimating your own abilities? The impression I get is that DL wants to encourage people to push their limits.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
Thomas.Heiss
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Repeating basics 1 ten times is not progress.

Yes, this may be true for basics (at least when you practiced a language for 1-1,5 years), but not for other skills, e.g more difficult grammar skills / tenses in the 2nd half / last quarter in your tree.


Repeating:

You IMHO need to have a 3rd party flashcard spaced repetition SR application like Memrise, AnkiSRS, SuperMemo,... anyways:

  • SR software never had the aim to repeat multiple times in a short time-line the older stuff which you already know and (actively) learned a longer time before.

  • It's focus was to repeat words (phrases/sentences) BEFORE you might have forgotten them according to your "forgetting curve".

  • Or to revisit words / NEWLY learned content you were exposed just 4h / 12h / 1d / 6d (Memrise) / 1d++ (AnkiSRS) before in short-term.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/savemyscript

I definitely miss the ability to choose the lessons I want, and to test out of skills. I'd completed my French tree, and then new lessons got added, and it's really annoying that crowns won't let me test out of things I know.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fexomat
Fexomat
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I thought the crowns update sounded good until I just received the update and can no longer test out of individual lessons. Now lessons that I basically know beforehand are really annoying and take too much time

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SanDigital
SanDigital
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I miss the test out the most. For Japanese, it's all new to me, so I don't notice it. But, in French, I'm at a more advanced level and the test out feature was a perfect way to practice without the tedium or redoing every basic detail

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Exactly! I think that this is the worst problem! By being able to test out you could quickly move through the stuff that was easy for you! Now I am bored by having to complete so much boring content!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/virtualgems

Duolingo French: I have been on the new system for about 5-6 days. I thought you were going to make things better. Instead, I spent the weekend going through the levels for the first Button, "Basics". There are 10 "testing chapters" within each level. Unfortunately, they do not get progressively more difficult and they do not include additional material. It is the same material over and over and over again. 10 x 5 = 50 times. I am bored out of my mind. All I have now is the number of crowns. I miss the fluency level. That at least had SOME meaning, and inspired me to work harder. BTW, I am not a newbie. I had about 270 streak days before I went to France, and now have another 109. The reason that people are spending more time in Duolingo is that they are desperate to get back to where they were before your took all the evidence of our progress away from us. I spent the weekend doing the same mind numbingly boring lessons over and over and over. I finally gave it up on level 4 x 3-4 times through, and still have not a single "Gold" button. Although I spent a lot more time in Duolingo since you introduced the crown system, I can assure that I am fed up and have basically learned nothing since the switch over. Fix this and do it now. I will be doing everything in my power to get back to the original system. I want my fluency level back and I want to be able to see real indicators of my progress. If I can't get back to the original system, I will find another language program.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bahalam
Bahalam
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They don't have anything new to offer and they expect us to go through the old things over and over.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheoDuke

Hello, my duolingo was recently updated and I went from having a fully gold tree to now the 'basics' skill among other simple skills now showing 0/2 lessons completed. This has resulted in me spending time uselessly completing skills when I am not benefitting at all. Is this an intended part of the new update?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lisaskier

Me too, it's really frustrating isn't it?
I am not a fan of needless updates that ruin previously perfect apps/systems etc.

:[

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/coto.i
coto.i
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Are there conjugation tables inside the lessons?

With the launch of the Crowns, I understand that we are forced to start our trees more or less from the beginning. What a better moment to bring the conjugation tables back into the lessons? That is bringing them right where we need them, and when we need them - and by this I mean not after tens of seconds or maybe minutes of searching through the Words tab or elsewhere. This was a great feature, and many users appreciated it. More details here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/25601938.

So, as we are to repeat even the most basic stuff, what a better thing to do than to use the occasion to fix the conjugation patterns into the memory?

Please bring back the CONJUGATE button when hovering over the verbs! Thank you!

And thank you for all your great work! I don't have the Crowns yet, but my intuition tells me that I'll like it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
Thomas.Heiss
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www.lingvist.com has a pretty cool feature for both the web portal + Android app where you can view the conjunction tables and several grammar explanations / tips in a 2nd "panel hint dialog" which auto-scrolls in from the bottom of the screen.

You can click on an arrow of the dialog (top right corner) and then it will fade out to the bottom of the screen and hide.

In the middle screen is the "translation panel" with the sentence in the target language and the "fill in the blank" space.

I pretty much liked the DuoLIngo "tips and notes" on my EN-PT tree on the web portal, and I also found the conjunction tables from the old Scala 2016 web portal useful.

But somehow I am definitely missing a cool addon hint / text explanation panel which fades in and out from the bottom of the screen....or where you can press the KEY-UP hotkey.

Sorry, I am not an English native speaker.
I can hardly explain in EN how cool Lingvist's feature actually is....you have to see it!

I definitely would like to have BOTH on Duo.
Please don't remove the longer "tips and notes" and tables from the skills!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/coto.i
coto.i
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I finished the French course on Lingvist when it was still free. I liked it a lot. They only show the conjugation tables if you fail the verb. Otherwise not. This is what I don't like because failing on purpose to see the tables will influence the SRS, just like failing for real.

On Duo we had the option to view the tables anytime during the exercises. It was very well thought!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
Thomas.Heiss
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Hi Coto.i,

Quote: I finished the French course on Lingvist when it was still free. I liked it a lot. They only show the conjugation tables if you fail the verb. Otherwise not. This is what I don't like because failing on purpose to see the tables will influence the SRS, just like failing for real.

The good thing is, that the Lingvist French has ~5000 words.
Lingvist Spanish has only ~3800 right now, until they are adding the rest of the words in bulks (I learned 1000 Spanish words in 11 days and 20 hours with my "end of 2017 year challenge").
I liked Lingvist's superb crystal clear Spanish audio compared to DuoLingo TTS.
It is very sad that they did this 3000 words cut for "Lingvist Free" in 2018; they seem to completely ignore my thread in their forum :(

Just to let you know:

  • I received an e-mail from Lingvist asking about a detail feedback in a web form https://lingvist.typeform.com/to/fXp1A9 (12 questions) as they found me on their forum. Did you too?

  • I have added your concern about the Lingvist tip / grammar table and requested, that we can always blend it in and out with hardware hotkeys, even before giving an answer or afterwards to review the question before.

  • I tried to explain in the feedback form https://lingvist.typeform.com/to/fXp1A9 what you told me above. I had re-tested your issue, can confirm it and hope we will see an improvement over time.

  • The good thing about Lingvist is IMHO that their developers are hanging around the forums and it is easier to get in direct contact with them. You get instant feeback most of the time. So there is a little hope :-)

  • With my 2017 Spanish challenge I was not able to read those tips/grammar notes in more detail anyways, because I was constantly fighting against the clock and the quick refill (even after short break of 45-90 minutes) of my "repeat practice stack", just to push their system and get over the 20/50 NEW (goal 100-150 words/day) words limit. Quite hard to do so if you learn a language from scratch.

On Duo we had the option to view the tables anytime during the exercises. It was very well thought!

Reminds me somehow about my Mondly tree for Portuguese (BR) where I can see those conjugation tables incl. multiple tenses :-)

Definitely very helpful!
I hope they bring them back to DuoLingo. But there are so many things todo / to fix with higher priority than this....

I am doing Mondly and my two DuoLingo PT-DE and PT-EN reverse trees right now in parallel.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/victorsb118

I would like to say that this change just throw away all my motivation to continue with duolingo, all the method that we applied until know is completely messed up. I have to start the course from the very beginning after a year of hard work. What is the point?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

I feel the same!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/graham891494

What have you just done to my beloved favourite app? I had a 122 day streak and was well advanced (65%) in French, and all of a sudden all my progress has vanished. All the visual psychological satisfaction I got from seeing lessons go gold and my % top up - gone. Just like that, no options, no ask - just gone. The new interface looks horrible, it's confusing and too busy. But more importantly I have no visual cues of progress to drive my learning.

Sorry, but statements like "Oh we're thinking about how to do that again" just mean that you haven't thought through how your app is used.or done any user research or proper UX design before you made some arbitrary change that nobody was asking for.

I can't believe I gave you guys money for a lifetime subscription, thinking I'd found my perfect app. Can I have a refund please? You've abused my custom and trust.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

Man, I would be PISSED if I’d paid for the app

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bahalam
Bahalam
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Actually I have paid with TIME!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIngTheThing
DuoIngTheThing
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sedlacek_m - Are you Swedish? I'm asking because you seem to want to learn Spanish, and I definitely want to learn Swedish, and you look kind of Swedish and Spanish is my native tongue.

I wish DuoLingo had an option where it could pair you up with a native-speaker of the language you want to learn, and you provide them the same guidance for the language they want to learn if it was also your native tongue.

I really just started with the Swedish course, but the pronunciation is not very intuitive, at least not for a non-native speaker.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

That would be a cool feature! I’m not Swedish, but you’re not too far off - I’m Danish!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIngTheThing
DuoIngTheThing
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sedlacke_m - At least I was close.

Does DuoLingo offer Danish? To my surprise it does. Umm... I might have to change that language goal of mine then. ;P

I will admit to you that I chose Swedish after flipping a coin. Heads was Swedish, tails was Dutch, but let me do a test trial with Danish. I've always had the desire of learning a Northern language anyway.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/graham891494

Also - no help, no guidance on what it all means. Just "hey, here's crowns, get on with it". Any change where I have to go Googling to find out what on earth it's about is a badly managed and implemented change.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIngTheThing
DuoIngTheThing
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graham891494 - How much was the lifetime subscription? Not that I would ever pay for an app with some many errors, but yet I'm still curious.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/graham891494

£49.99. Might have been annual rather than lifetime. No ads, and you can work on lessons offline which I need.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kenmerk
kenmerk
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I've cancelled my annual subscription (so it won't renew anymore) and if you're dissatisfied with the dreadful new version I'd recommend you do the same.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIngTheThing
DuoIngTheThing
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graham891494 - Gotcha! I take it back, maybe if I had to pay just once in a lifetime to have all the lessons readily accessible for when I'm on the go, I probably would commit. But considering that I tend to learn more from the "discuss" section and the comments people make within it, which kind of requires me using the website version while being online on my computer, this probably isn't such a great deal for me after all.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Pete561205
Pete561205
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I totally sympathise - I just completed a 365 day streak today but won't be using the app again as long as the stupid crown system remains.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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Thanks for the information. I get the reasoning behind the update to the crowns system, and in general is works really well. But although I know that practice is important to learn a language, it was my decaying golden tree that motivated me to actually practice, and we've lost this. And since the general practice button doesn't have any effect on the tree anymore that is not exately motivating either.

Also there really needs to be some kind of summary showing the words / topic covered by a skill so you can make in informed decision on what you're spending your time working on.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/aanaaaa
aanaaaa
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So, I will probrably leave Duolingo, it does not make sense to me without timed practice, no way to me to get level 5 starting from level 3 in all my trees, look at my numbers, I should go straight to level 5 in most of my trees. It is not fair!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bahalam
Bahalam
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you should

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Exactly!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kenmerk
kenmerk
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You won't be alone. I'm sorry that this has happened. It's stupid. I'm leaving too.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bahalam
Bahalam
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I'm not satisfied with the progress loss. It's been nearly 5 years since I started the Spanish tree. I have finished the tree from the start to end lesson by lesson 2 times. Then 2 reviews for all the skills. I have had all the skills Golden for months and months. I've passed lvl. 25. How is this possible? I was going to put my focus on other languages. Not facing with the sameeeee content again and again and again (Cause I know it takes a looonggg time to get to golden state once more due to the stupid ascending number of lessons each CR lvl.) This is not fair evaluation. There aren't any harder question Duolingo can throw at me in Spanish seriously. Not before a major database update. I've had it all. I tried to go the path to level 4 but the questions were so easy. I must be level 5 in most and 4 in some. Please fix this :( You can't state that a student is level 3 in a skill, while he has answered all the questions and there aren't any new or harder ones. . EDIT: I fixed. I switched into the old version. But if this is really going to be an obligation for everyone, please make it just. GOOD THING: The only good thing happened here is the non-decaying skills. I had to refresh the lesson that said I am a man. You are a boy. once a month! We don't need this. Keep the algorithm that detects forgotten words but improve it. Keep the strengthening thing. Anyone who honestly wants to actually ''Learn" a language, will pay a visit to it, every day. . 2nd EDIT: Soon you can't even do that senseless repetition. Health is being graduated from A/B testing and will join the party to make that absolutely IMPOSSIBLE. . 3rd EDIT: Now it is an obligation. What a failure... What a disaster... Unbelievably discouraging system. An unending agonising bombardment with a lot of easy, silly, repetitive questions, soon to be accompanied with Health. I'm close to lose all my motivation regarding this platform, unless they take action and fix this madness. Do it if you don't wanna see some your most loyal users gone... We should HAVE the option and freedom to choose the system we desire. Give us that and be our favourite learning app once again.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CourtnyLR

One thing I have noticed is that there seems to be a lot of die-hard perfectionists on here (and yes, I am one of them). May I respectfully suggest that if you have gone through the tree twice and don't feel you are learning anything doing more lessons with the crown version, then simply don't. Be satisfied that you finished the tree and move on to something else.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bahalam
Bahalam
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But I would go there for reviews every once in a while and I see my colourful tree, what was golden once. Come on! They have made an update which comes with various problems (In fact it was an unexpected disaster). We are here to give our feedback and then live in hope. "Ignore the update" is not a logical answer but a last option. Maybe not even that...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheHolyV

Wow, I was forced to update to crows today and I can say that I just HATE it. Sorry folks, but it does make me not want to use Duolingo anymore. You cannot just groom me for 175 days straight (my longest run to date) and without ANY warning, turn my almost entirely gold tree (I was so close to that all tree gold star) and essentially make me restart from the beginning... It's not conducive to retaining people like me who have already learned all that Duolingo could teach and are now just there to make sure that knowledge is kept fresh. Overall the switch was REALLY poorly managed: it detracts from the learning paths people were already on, to maybe favour new customers, but that is poor towards your existing loyal followers... I spare you the litany of my work experience in IT to make my point stronger. Suffice to say that switching to crowns was a really awful experience.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

AGREED! Before I was motivated to learn, now I'm not - and even if I was, there are so many issues and bugs with the news setup that I'd immediately get annoyed and drop it. I'm thinking DL are going to lose a lot of users with this move..

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/solipsism5

Very true. This can not have gone through any serious A/B testing. If it did the data was totally misinterpreted. I imagine someone thought they were going to keep people longer, watching their ads, but they are sacrificing all their loyal subscribers who've spent hundreds of days completing courses. I can't imagine they've made a good financial decision here. Even new users are not going to stay on here because they've made the game boring. I'm probably going elsewhere. I've never seen a company totally implode like this. Yes, people make changes to apps, but do they totally get rid of all the best features? In one blow they got rid of timed repitition (decay), vocabulary lists, and timed practice. I didn't like the fluency meter but at least it made some people feel good about the progress they were making. What the heck is Duo doing? I'm finding it hard to imagine what else they could have done to make things worse - perhaps get rid of daily streaks, and the lingot store? I'm sure someone is working on it right now. This is very disappointing. I hope they can make a come back but am very skeptical.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rogercchristie
rogercchristie
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I guess the next feature to go will be the Discussions --- all because we aren't saying what the management team want to hear and buffing up their egos (in my opinion).

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Larkspire
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Do I read correctly that I'll now have to jump through at least two non-test-out-able hoops for every single skill on the German tree just to get exercises which are actually an appropriate "difficulty" for me (writing in my target language) again? My engagement with German on Duo - outside of Stories - has been lagging because these exercises were already too few and far between, whereas Duo had previously been a good "support"/side activity even though I've moved on to other sources for the primary source of my German learning. Combined with Mango's thus far superior structure to its Spanish course, having to do even more "Pick the translation for 'Mother': (two adjectives, a verb, and Mutter)" to "prove" I know how to use it in a sentence will be the end of my Duo use, I think.

edit: Turns out it's 12 to 24 hoops per skill! That's it for my German on Duo then, and I'm having very strong second thoughts about Spanish.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/aanaaaa
aanaaaa
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I have another account , so I was with 1 crown and had to make the lesson 6 times to get my second crown and then to complete 3 crowns I have to do it 9 times :D :D , no way, I will not do it!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/provolik
provolik
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You wanna improve the system for a better teaching and that's okay. But for me it's like I was at high school and coming back to children class: I have to redo all those boring levels writing 'a boy', 'a girl', 'I am a boy', 'she is a girl', for nine times for a level. After reaching level 5 in 'I am a boy', I will have to reach level 5 in 'The duck is white', and after that another level 5 in 'the pen is on the table'. I don't want to downgrade, but at least a better upgrade.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/knullarfra

Well said!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hubinou
Hubinou
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A few months ago, I suggested a new way to measure progress.

Duolingo already has several tools for measuring our progression when we are learning a language :

  • number of XP
  • level (related to number of XP)
  • skills (golden or not)
  • fluency % for some languages and now, crowns

However, it lacks a single metric ranging from 0% when we start a completely new tree to 100% when we finish the tree and it is all golden.

Of course, a single ratio could make it :

measure = [nbr of skills completed] / [total nbr of skills]

But since all skills do not contain the same number of lessons, this measure would be biased. So, let's change the measure :

measure = [Nbr of lessons completed] / [total nbr of lessons in all skills]

But skills already accomplished fade with time and get a ponderation decreasing from 5/5 when freshly finished to 0/5 when forgotten. So, what I suggest as measure is :

measure = { Sum ( [Nbr of lessons in skills completed] x [ponderation of the skill] ) + [Nbr lessons completed in uncompleted skills] } / [total nbr of lessons in all skills]

Let's give a little example for illustration purpose. Imagine a language with 5 skills, and the situation of the learner :

  • skill 1 : 3 lessons, all finished, ponderation 5/5 => 3 * 5/5 = 3 pt
  • skill 2 : 5 lessons, all finished, ponderation 3/5 => 5 * 3/5 = 3 pt
  • skill 3 : 3 lessons, all finished, ponderation 4/5 => 3 * 4/5 = 2.4 pt
  • skill 4 : 4 lessons, 1 finished, 3 to do => 1 pt
  • skill 5 : 5 lessons, still to be done => 0 pt

Measure :

  • Total accomplished : 9.4 pt
  • Maximum : 20 pt
  • Measure : 9.4 / 20 = 47%

This would indeed start at 0% when starting a completely new tree to 100% when the tree is finished and all golden.

It will also decay with time if the tree is abandonned and it will put the emphasis on keeping the skills with many lessons golden.

What do you think about it ?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
Corinnebelle
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It would be nice to have system that showed how much you actually knew, compared to how many points you have earnt. You can know something well and finish fast or not know it and take a long time and you will have less XP when you knew it well than when you had to learn it. Xp is your level of hard work, it does not reflect your knowledge.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Izim_M
Izim_M
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This seems to be a mix of fluency and the visual representation of your tree in the old system. Fluency probably works similarly but takes much more into account, while the visual representation of the tree would show you how many skills you've completed and how high your strength in each of them is.

I suppose this method would be good, as it allows people to know why they're not at 100% and what they should do to reach it (unlike fluency, which seems to be the reason why they'll remove fluency). On the other hand it sort of converts the visual representation we used to have in the old system to a single number. This could be good cause as the OP mentioned, the quick visual interpretation of your tree to see how well you're doing might be gone in the new system.

I don't understand one thing though. You said the percentage would decay over time if you don't practise, but how would that work? The OP said that once you get your crowns, you never lose them, right?

If this means the percentage would never decay, perhaps this wouldn't be motivating enough for people to continue learning once they've reached 100%. But then again, that might happen either way if they reached all crowns, it just shouldn't have to be pointed out like that that they practically completed Duolingo.

Either way I wouldn't use this to replace the level system which goes up to 25, people (including me) are too attached to that. It may be a nice addition though.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/flootzavut
flootzavutPlus
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I've often thought that a more tree-specific version of the fluency meter would be great, and this seems like it would work well.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FsqBrDe
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This is how I feel with Crowns System:

Me: Wow, this is a complicated structure. Let me practice it again before I go to the next one.

Duo: No. Move on.

Me: ... but I like to repeat what I just read to try to understand how this structure works.

Duo: MOVE. ON. Or use another source that is not Duolingo.

And so I move on, not because I feel confident, but because I have no option, if I ever want to practice the structure again in the future.

I'm frustrated for not being able to use my own pace to learn, to repeat the exercise I'm in doubt, and review what I saw before learning something new, just like I could do with a book.

I wonder if I ever have to take a break in the middle of a skill, and when I decide to go back after a month, I will have to learn other new stuff before I can catch up with what I had read before. This could be quite inconvenient.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Archy864245

Everyone uses duolingo to learn in a way that suits them and a forced change like this disrupts that. I personally have been working my way through a section of the skill tree and then going back to make everything gold once I'm done. When all is gold i allow myself to start the next section of the tree. This change has completely uprooted my style of learning and the removal of gold skills has removed my base for knowing when I am ready to start the next section. The crown level is arbitrary and means nothing as there is no scale for what a good amount of crowns to have is and so there is no feeling of progression. And after all this the changes are being forced onto us with no option to revert back to the better system which destroyed all motivation I had for using your service.

Also your site doesn't have an easy to find contact email to give feedback so we're forced to post on public forums where peoples opinions can be buried and never get the response from DuoLingo they want. Pretty unhappy to say the least.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bernardo592458

Totally agree on all points. The practice mode seems to be randomly selected lessons. Not good for my routine either. They are most likely trying to increase the paid membership numbers.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SkeletalRoses
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Yeah, no, you guys really screwed the pooch on this one.

Nothing about this change is an upgrade. The higher crown levels would have been a cool feature if they actually offered new, more advanced content for more serious learners---I'd have been all over that---but they don't. There's no additional content; just more repetition. Some people benefit from that level of repetition, but they could choose to do that themselves by repeating lessons as needed. For those of us who don't need as much repetition, the run-throughs are tedious, boring, and feel like a serious dumbing-down. Fluency was wildly inaccurate but it wasn't hindering anything. We're not losing anything with it gone, but just getting rid of a neutral feature doesn't count as an upgrade.

Everything else about this is an unequivocal downgrade. The crown system as it exists is demotivating. I'm personally particularly teed off by the loss of the decay and review recommendations. Like, I'm baffled as to why you thought that was a good idea. You actually seem to acknowledge that it's not, but you...did it anyway? Because...?

Honestly, that seems to be a running theme with this new system. You're preemptively trying to defend all these issues with it, because you know they're issues and people will have problems with them, but you rolled this all out anyway. Foisting a system that you know is broken on people who had no idea it was coming (hi!). At best, the update wasn't ready. At worst, it's just bad across the board.

The system you had going was great. I don't exactly want to say "leave well enough alone," because we don't want you to stagnate and continued improvements are good (such as the recent update to the French tree), but maybe you should survey your base and find out what kinds of changes we want. And which ones we don't.

Please put the old system back. At the very least, let us opt out of this update and don't roll it out again until you've polished it and made something that's not. F***ing. Broken.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kenmerk
kenmerk
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Outstandingly written and I completely agree.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luke.Crowe

Hello,

So I have now used this new crown system and my concerns are confirmed. This is not about us learning language, this is about Duolingo and their business model. This whole change was clearly designed, as stated by Karint in a previous post about Crowns "Students are doing more sessions, sticking around for longer, and doing harder types of exercises" - this was not about language - this is about keeping eyeballs in the system longer so more ads can be put in front of them - why else would practice sessions no longer build skills - practice restored health, and levelled up - now they want to take that incentive away, so you are more likely to watch an add to restore health - cha-ching Duolingo bank account!!!

So there is no doubt some benefit to Crowns - but there is clear motive in the design changes that prove that duolingo no longer cares about users, like facebook, it has a sole purpose to monetise the user base.

Issues I see:

1) Also, WHERE are the Bots?!?! Why did this feature have to go? One of the issues with Duolingo is that it is not spoken language skills - and that is NOT learning a language. The bots were at least an attempt to encourage you to use spoken language skills - and in a simulated "flowing discussion" that also encouraged you to use your knowledge as it developed to add additional words and phrases you may know - unlike the "speak these words" function in the lessons - which are "parrot" learning - just repeating what you have heard/read exactly - that isn't an owl (knowledge) that is quite literally a dumb parrot that has no knowledge of the language - just mimicking the sounds. The bots allowed you to apply knowledge beyond just repeating back sounds.

Call me a cynic - but based on recent behaviour - no doubt the bot feature will become a "paid" feature in the future - either through gems/lingots (meaning you need to watch ads galore to earn enough to use the feature - or buy the lingots/gems outright) or only on DuoLingo Pro subscription

2) The lack of decay function is against ALL principles of learning - especially language learning. It is well established that we need to continue use knowledge to retain and master it. Hell, Duolingo literally told us that when it would "decay" a skill and ask us to practice again - brains aren't perfect. I have just levelled up to a 5 crown in Basics 1 of Spanish - firstly it was not that more difficult - just so repetitive - AND it did not even insist on getting "accents" on letter correct, or even only letting you get the 5 crown level when you go 100% - with no errors in the first attempt of each question. That means I know I have not obtained anywhere NEAR mastery of even these basics, yet I now have NOW opportunity to go back and practice. In fact there is one aspect I know I am struggling with and without the ability to go back to a specific lesson to practice - or see the words in advance, this is now useless.

3) You cannot go back to a specific lesson or see the words of the lesson in advance. This is a massive step backwards. Why is a more important question? In what way did the move to Crowns REQUIRE these changes? As I mentioned, the crown system itself is not an issue it is actually the implementation that Duolingo has made - which is why I feel this is more about money. You could have moved to a Crown system AND still let people see the relevant words before each lesson - Why do you need to remove them? You could also have the crown system AND allow people to go back to a specific lesson and practice - again all technically possible, yet removed - so you are more likely to run out of health and have to watch ads.

4) I spent gems/lingots on the "idioms" and "flirting" bonus skills - these are no missing from the app - WHY? Again, why the need to remove these features (like bots, ability to return to lessons, seeing the word list, the bonus skills), to do the Crown system?

I do not care that my tree is not gold - of course it was slightly demotivating at first, but I am intelligent enough to be motivated by the fact that for every skill I have a "1" or more, then essentially that is the new "gold tree". It took me a few minutes to get over that.

So all up - and I really hope SOMEONE from Duolingo reads this (@karint at least) - The issue is NOT Crowns per se - it is the way you have done them.

You could have got ALL the benefits you mention - more time in app, more sessions - more ad revenue for Duolingo - WITHOUT taking away useful features and value for users. This is what is clearly generating some of the most consistent and vehement HATE towards Duolingo I have ever seen. You have made this change for your benefit - OK - fair call, you provide a service to us, you deserve to make some coin for it, BUT you could have done that for you, without TAKING value away from your user base!!!!

Keep crowns - make us spend more time doing sessions for longer - for your benefit. but put back:

1) Decay 2) Bots 3) Ability to see the word lists for each lesson 4) Ability to go back to specific lessons 5) Bonus skills back in app (though they weren't that great - or worth the gems/lingots - so not a big issue)

You would eliminate 80% of the hate generated from this change overnight with addressing #1 and # 4. The people complaining about their "golden tree" are just not yet seeing the fact that a skill with a single crown is the same as a "gold" skill - whatever!!

Finally, to let you know. My family, friends and colleagues at work would joke about how much of a PROMOTOR of Duolingo I have been. I would tell anyone about it, how good it was, and why they should join. I got my brother to get my 2 nieces and nephew to start learning 2nd languages using your service. I even started the team I manage at work on using the service as a team bonding exercise.

I have to say, based on the issues I raised above, I would NOT recommend Duolingo to anyone at all right now, even new language learners. It is clear you have lost sight of finding the right balance between your users needs and your needs to make money, and I would not want to lose my reputation recommending your service to someone, as you may destroy the service even more in your desperation to make money.

Again, I have no issue with you making money, just don't remove value from your system for your current users that have put you in a position to be able to make that money from advertisers.

Cheers,

Luke

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joanna104313

With the crown system I can't go back into a lesson to practice it. There is no way I can pick up the content from a lesson in a single go. In some cases I now have to go through several lessons repeatedly to practice the same sentences. I am getting more confused and will probably end up leaving this system. I was really enjoying this and for the first time in years I have actually been able to learn some of a new language. I am very disheartened.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Wesley275034

I was a paying customer, but this update is psychologically devastating to my enjoyment of language learning. I went from having most of my tree complete and golden, to everything incomplete. If I were still interested in this app, I would have to practice simple words like "boy" and "apple" hundreds of times to reclaim the achievement that was taken from me. I have a ~500 day streak, but truly am struggling to force myself to use the new system to maintain it.

Beyond that, this system is a huge step backward for actual language learning. You clearly know that given the preemptive defenses in the post above: "We'll figure out a way to work spaced repetition in later!" "We agree it's impossible to figure out what you need to practice - we'll see if we can do something about that one day!" "We don't have decaying skills, because humans are automatons with perfect recall who never forget anything!" "We know change is tough, but you'll get used to all the ways that this is objectively worse for learning!"

Duolingo - please take a beat, read through these comments, read through the post above where you're pre-defending what you know is a broken system, and LISTEN TO YOUR USERS. Give folks an option to revert to the old system or fix the myriad obvious problems with the new system (especially the stripping of completion from all users, the lack of decaying skills, and the lack of spaced repetition). If you mess this up, you will absolutely lose members of your "great community" of ad-watchers and paying users that keep Duolingo afloat and language learning free for all.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

I absolutely agree!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Rushiil_R
Rushiil_R
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The one regular thing I had in life was dedicating a certain amount of time everyday ,to keep all my language trees golden. It got to the point of an obsessive addiction . Now, that they've taken that away from me , I have nothing else to fill the vacuum left behind. There's no incentive for me to keep working . I've nothing to work towards. I have to start all over again with the same basic words and sentences. It's a huge waste of time and you get nothing out of it . You took a perfect thing and somehow made it into the abomination it is now. Did you really want to improve the learning experience or there's an inside ploy to make people stop using Duolingo . If the latter is the case , then you've done quite a good job. I quit .

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tranklements
Tranklements
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Thank you very much, Karin, for writing responses to the many questions that had been collecting during the past few weeks. Lack of communication about the change was leading to some unexpected behaviours, such as people working out how to switch back to non-crowns, creating new accounts just to see crowns for themselves, and losing motivation because details of how the transition would be implemented and affect progress were not available. Keeping users well-informed about changes makes them feel valued!

If the completion of crown level 1 is equivalent to the former change from color to gold, then why not leave that transition in place from color to gold at level 1. Your casual learners have the satisfaction of of working through the tree and seeing a visible sign of completion and your hard-working more serious users who have been keeping their trees gilded would not be disappointed by the apparent set-back in status or bored by the repetition required for reaching level 5 in search of gold.

Or perhaps has level 1 become simpler than what was previously required to complete a skill?

Good riddance to the fluency score which was meaningless.

Agreed, no one is reporting the crown levels are too difficult.

Thank you for welcoming feedback both negative and positive and for demonstrating that you read carefully and take into consideration comments on the discussion board.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TinaMorris4

I wouldn't mind that at all. The outer ring around each skill could be a level-progress like it is now, but maybe they could turn the circle for the crowned task gold and perhaps address the Spaced Repetition issue by showing the gold circle like a tank that sometimes needs to be refilled so you can visually see when a skill needs a top-off.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/daffodil2015
daffodil2015
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Can I report that the crown levels are too easy? :p Not to mention tedious, way too repetitive and pointless.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AronFridrik

I want my totally golden tree back :(

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KatMilliman

I hate crowns. I wish there was an option where I could go back to the old system. But I guess from the sound of it, I'm stuck with crowns. I don't feel like I'm making any progress and I have become very disheartened. At least with the older system it was way easier to see my progress. I know it's being worked on. So I hope it gets better. Till then, C'est la vie.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Isabcomment
IsabcommentPlus
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I really hate it. The lower levels are boring and repetitious. Toally unncessary busy work. Wish I could turn them off crowns. I may give up Duo lingo because of it, and now wish i had never gotten a plus membership.

In addition, I find it really annoying that you lose health if you make a mistake in the crown level basic reviews. There doesnt seem to be a way to gain health in a penalty free review.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/elmanisero777
elmanisero777
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I really dislike the new crown system. Not because of the crowns, but more because of how the practice does not change the crown level. I was nearly 100% gold for the entire chinese tree, and now everything is at levels 2 or 3, with some level 1 sprinkled in. I would be completely fine with this if I could practice my way through it all, but instead I have to do the insanely tedious re-hashing of the tree. So instead of practicing complex sentence structures, I'm back at the very beginning practicing "hello" and "goodbye". Very frustrating as I have to decide whether I should abandon getting level 5 for all skills or just keep practicing as I had been. Hopefully you can revisit this in the future soon.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sh.rodz

SERIOUSLY, there needs to be a way to test out of those baby skills, I can't believe how many times I have to translate "He is a boy" just to get a golden (or level 5, whatever they call it) Basics 1 level.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Yes please fix this. It's so boring and pointless!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Stusstrupp
Stusstrupp
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Yesterday, I received the "crown" changes. While the "fluency" metric before the change sounded awkward, it never hurt much. Now, I find the following:

  • Accounting for loss of practice by decay: gone.
  • Thus, spaced repetition: gone.
  • If you start a language where you already have some knowledge: no testing out any more, so no fast reaching of your actual skill level.
  • Lesson words list: gone

If this was tested "successfully", I very much question the test method.

Yesterday, unsubscribed my from Plus.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LICA98
LICA98
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I still don't understand what happens once you've got level 5 on all skills though if they never decay? do you just have to abandon the tree? - -

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
Lrtward
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Once you've got to level 5 on all skills I'm not sure you could stomach much more of Duolingo. Level 5 takes a LOT of repetition. I think by level 5 through the entire tree and you'd be ready to move on to something new - a reverse tree, a new language, reading books, watching movies...

Of course there is always timed practice, which adds the challenge of speed plus spaced repetition (showing you your weakest words). So that's still an option.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheHolyV

Ok, good to know... I am ready to leave DL now in that case.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hermesianax
Hermesianax
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Any estimation how much lessons a full tree in the new crown system has and thus how much experience it would provide?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

So far as I can see, if there are N lessons in a Skill to get to 1 Crown, then there are subsequently N, 2N, 3N and 5N lessons to get to each successive Crown up to 5 Crowns. I haven't found a Skill any different to this yet. So in my case (Italian), I did 405 lessons to get 1 Crown in each Skill, so I will have to do 4860 lessons to get 5 Crowns in all 66 Skills. So that would be 48,600 XP.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Larkspire
Larkspire
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Getting to Level 2 on all skills up to the first checkpoint of the Spanish tree is getting to be about all I can stomach. I know the FAQ says that "casual" learners can ignore crowns, but I don't think I'm less dedicated for not wanting to repeat "su madre" for half of the 8 sentences per lesson x 6 lessons per crown level x 4 levels to go through = 96 times. Maybe if the lesson content wasn't so repetitive it'd be bearable, but with things as they are currently...

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dwduo
dwduo
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Great post, karint, thanks. It helps to know Duo's intentions, even if just to allow myself off the hook for trying obsessively for full gold right off the bat. The "extra dimension" thing is a good idea.

I must express however the importance of decay and SRS. SRS is obvious for learning, and it sounds like you're not tossing it out. But decay remains a motivator. Once the tree is full gold, motivation will go right off the cliff (for me, at least) if it stays that way forever. It's like playing an open ended sandbox game with no point -- good as it might be at first, eventually it gets old and you leave it behind.

One suggestion might be: rather than take away the levels or the gold, mark the node in some other way as "needing attention" (increasingly with neglect). A tarnishing medal? Cracked gold?

To my surprise, I do like the idea of 'spreading out' across the tree afterall, and I can see the logic in it. The repetition gets pretty old, unfortunately. Additional sentence structures are always a good thing.

Thanks for the info.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TheHolyV

I agree: if the tree is full gold and it stays that way, where is the motivation? Essentially, as duolingo is learning by gamification, you have completed the game, and as with any videogames, you would abandon it and take up something else...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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Agreed. The decaying skills are motivation to work on things that need work.
And tarnishing, cracking gold is quite a good visual metaphor.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jenna85920

I hate the new system just because I had no time to do dutch for a while and then I came back to it and so I was reviewing each one, one topic at a time and so now I can't do it as a refresher because the health mechanic is now a part of the reviewing. I want some way to disable the health in the reviewing or just make a focused review thing.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/none4

I absolutely hate the changes you have made. Especially the fact that there was no option (take it or leave it). I absolutely hate the fact of being unable to see the words in my lessons and that I cannot choose which lesson to repeat at the particular time. Visually and mentally it is so non-transparent and dissuading. So dull. Yes, I miss my golden skills and fluency score too (no matter how inaccurate it actually was). The new concept ruined my motivation entirely and even made me feel depressed.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ciliolindemberg
ciliolindemberg
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I am not sure my comment is going to be as seen as the ones right below this topic, but perhaps I have a good point here...

You see, by reading some of these comments, what I noticed is something I'm used to see in my classrooms (I'm an English teacher). I see and understand everyone has his/her own way of learning a language. Some activities/methods work with some students, and others just don't. It's a fact. What can I do? I need to switch methods to reach all students. That's what I need to do.

So, considering the comments, I've seen that some users (like me) actually like and are motivated with the fluency option, whereas others don't like it or feel bad to see it's behaving inaccurately as to their level. So, I was wondering, why don't you turn Duolingo into the website/app every user has always wanted? I mean, why don't you show us your options/buttons/resources, all of them, and then let us decide which of them we want to see in our own accounts/apps? If we could choose what stay or what is out of our accounts, a possible solution could be found so that everyone here could feel satisfied...

It's a suggestion... What do you think? :)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AureliaUK
AureliaUK
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The more advanced users have been asking for this flexible, pick-and-mix approach for at least 2 years so users can tailor the course to their own personal learning style. Yet every change has been to remove any remaining flexibility in how the user interacts with the course.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Good idea!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/prophecyte
prophecyte
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Can't you at least make it optional? Please? I'm honestly crying and I'm not even exaggerating; Duolingo used to be my favourite app for languages but now it feels like everything I liked about it has been scrapped. I know our progress hasn't been deleted, but it certainly feels like it. I'd at least like an option to turn off the crowns system because I hate it so much.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vascotuga251

> learners using the app more

I only use the app when my PC is off or when I have significant knowledge of the language that I don't need to see the tips & notes.
The crown system won't do any better for me in that regard. If you guys want to increase the usage of the app then add "tips & notes".

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/E.T.Gregor
E.T.Gregor
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Follow-up question to that: is Duolingo interested in actively moving users from the desktop website to the app? Why?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bill147479
Bill147479
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To get more revenue through Health and ad impressions? That's why I use a VPN adblocker so that this trick wouldn't work on me.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Callie69107
Callie69107
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It's had totally the opposite effect for me. I prefer the app as I usually use an iPad but I have had to switch to the web version because I've got no health. (I'm finding all the boring repetition is meaning lots of typos.) I also really liked the bot feature - particularly the speaking option.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

I just reset my entire progress in order to try the crown system from scratch. As I begun the basics 1 badge, I also leveled up in Phrases and Basics 2 - how come?? I thought I understood the new system after reading about it, but some things aren’t adding up to me.. Additionally, I’m missing the sense of accomplishment by going though each badge. Like being able to look at the different words and steps in each badge and once you were done there, you could easily see that you’d completed that particular badge. Now it seems a bit wishywashy with the crowns changing numbers randomly, and not being able to have a better look at how many steps/what steps you have yet to do in each skill. I’m not sure I’m wording myself correctly, but hopefully this makes sense to somebody else too?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/carolin_o
carolin_o
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Under the old system (or maybe I had a B in an A/B test), if an early lesson had some overlap with another lesson (for instance, if you had to succeed in naming colors in order to succeed in the lesson about, e.g., food) you would get 1 pt of credit in the second lesson. It seems that that same feature

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/virtualgems

I was able to ditch the new Crowns and go back to the original Duolingo. If you force the rollout of the Crowns on everyone, I will be leaving for another program. I have loved Duolingo until now, and I would hate to leave, but I hate, loathe, and detest the Crowns. Using it for 5-6 days was miserable. Yes, I spent longer than I wanted to, but I discovered that you are only forcing us to do the same lessons over and over and over and over - 5 times! I learned absolutely nothing. Please give us a choice. I will not do the Crowns version.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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You don't HAVE to go to crown level 5, you can just carry on to the next skill if you want. That's the whole point.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tawarochir
Tawarochir
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Please let us turn the crowns feature off until you've actually finalized the feature! It's really frustrating that you've forced this feature I strongly dislike onto me without my consent. It's missing lots of useful features, gives me no incentive to practice daily, and overall adds nothing for me right now.

I recognize that this feature presents good opportunities for learning, and I agree that it's a good idea--but please, don't force us to use a half-baked system like this!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Posmond

This is such rubbish! Nobody asked me if I wanted these changes. I am out of here!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AllisonMac15

I really want the "test out" option back. I practice Spanish a lot in my real life, with Spanish speaking family members, tv shows and podcasts. I like duolingo because I can build more technical grammar skills, but I often find that I am stuck trudging through lessons for stuff I already know. It's not challenging at all. I want to progress as fast on duolingo as I do in real life.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fexomat
Fexomat
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I agree, now some lessons seem like a real waste of time whereas before one could simply test out of individual lessons.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PeelOfShame
PeelOfShame
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I would love it too. I think, at the very least, some easier way to do multiple lessons in a go rather than having to jump back out to the main tree and click back into lessons would be nice...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

I agree with you!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

Try access on a PC. Test out came to my computer but not my tablet over the weekend. I was at level 5 and 4 on all skills after only a few hours.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

Is this on www.duolingo.com or www.duome.eu? I can only see it on the latter.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

Hi Graham. For me the test-out ability is on duolingo.com I rarely use the duome version. When I click on a skill on a skill, an icon of a key appears. Click on that. When I had mostly level 3s there was also the light bulb icon in the same box, but now it seems gone. I wish navigating this system was less self-exploratory trial and error. It seems roll out of features is not universal.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

Scratch that. It's just appeared today on www.duolingo.com for me.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AdamDurok

What a terrible update! Now I can not repeat lessons I want. I really don't care about all the meters, xp, streak, I just know exactly what lesson I want to repeat. Now I can't!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ThisOldSpouse

I am disappointed that I do not have the option to go back and review individual lessons within a chapter. I need to be able to take a group of new words and practice them several times to get them in long term memory before moving on to the next lesson. At least I have not been able to see how to review and practice a specific lesson before moving on to the next one. Am I missing something??

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/none4

I have the same problem. And I'm utterly disappointed too.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnirbanDut3

Exactly. This is the biggest disappointment with the new version. Before moving to a new chapter I always prefer to review past lessons individually to memorize words by practicing them again and again. Now with the new version Duolingo is providing harder task to review a chapter rather than the good old lessons!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

I’m with you on that! And I’m not sure if it’s a bug or not, but my app skips actually teaching a bunch of words - they’re just thrown out there randomly with no translation

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BrianEllio16
BrianEllio16
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same

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mikeb102
mikeb102
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If you click on any skill circle and then the lightbulb in the bubble below it you can still go through all the lesson notes/tips. While you can't hit an individual lesson pack I've noticed it does run through the full gamut of topics so you haven't lost it. I agree it's a big switch though and I'm not sold on the approach either (yet).

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Xerofax
Xerofax
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Quite simply, I want the satisfaction of having my skills gold back. And getting level 2 in all my gold skills does not cut it, while repeating skills I already know for ever is a chore, nothing that is motivating. For repeating stuff we have a practice button, and it works quite well. You simply have, on the emotional level of learning and motivation, stolen from me.

The gold stars may have just been flimsy paper gold stars like the ones used be elementary school teachers, by another name, but having 1 of those being the maximum, then introducing a new system and not giving everyone who already "maxed" out the new maximum is simply watering down or stealing the feeling of progress people made in the past. It might not hit people who start today, but for everyone who already has done more than 5 lessons, it's simply being sent back to first grade, with no reason given and no way to climb back to the grade you belong to besides crawling through the whole year at normal pace. This is neither logical nor fair for any users who started before crowns where a thing.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ava12556

I agree with you. This whole crown thing just makes me want to delete the app and find another app that doesn't regress my progress. It's ridiculous. I am not recommending this app.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DodoJarmann
DodoJarmann
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To me Crowns seems counterproductive. When going back and repeating alredy learned stuff which is too basic, you get bored with the endless repetition and start making mistakes you wouldn’t normally make. Bringing back the test out function would be wise.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nyarlath

The problem with the new system is that it does not tell me where my weak spots are and which topic I should practice for maximal profit. The number of training is very weakly correlated with the proficiency (which actually do decay), making the crown level meaningless for learning, and even if we in fact would happen to train more, we are likely to learn less because of the higher frequency of sub-optimally-spaced repetition.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vivifie2

I really hate this new system. It goes too slowly and gives the learner much too little control. It would be great for those who are starting a new language, but it is deadly for faux beginners. The program has no way to know what are typos or errors due to lapsed attention. There should be some way for the learner to level up in a skill . The program can send them backwards again if there are too many errors. Please, either give the alternative to go back to the old system or create a means for learners to control the levels.. I don't know if I can stick with this snail pace. True the learning would be really reinforced, but the time it takes to get anywhere is ridiculous. Explicit grammar lessons would be much more useful.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jumi212
Jumi212
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I want to cry! I started my practice session today at level 20 and with most sujects gold. Halway though DL changed me to the crowns system and every subject reverted to either no crowns or a few at 1 or 2 crowns. Even ‘basics 1’ went back to one crown, I just spent over half an hour just repeating - I am a man, I am a boy, I am a girl, I am a woman to get to 5 crowns on basics 1. Nothing else - just repeating these same sentences over and over and over ......... So boring and not teaching me anything at all. Surely someone who is at level 20 and had most subjects ‘gold’ should be assumed to have five crowns at such a basic level. I feel very demoralised that I more or less have to start from scratch as a beginner and have no way now to tell how I am genuinely progressing. Also, when I reached level 21 I didn’t get any lingots - how do I earn lingots now? Just off to dive into a large G&T to dull the pain.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/elmanisero777
elmanisero777
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Completely agree. Practiced saying hello and goodbye in Chinese for an hour yesterday just to reach level 5 crown. Also in the meantime, have a lingot on me ;)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnnaBalint2

Nyihao fellow language learner :D Imagine spending another hour on learning how to order a beer in mandarin (make sure to order the cold beer in China though as they serve hot ones too ;). Maybe we should save our time from Duolingo and go out and travel instead. here have two lingots though ;) I won't be needing them much anymore anyways

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/elmanisero777
elmanisero777
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我已经去过中国,多邻国很帮助我。 我在中国点了很多啤酒 :D 但是现在我在多邻国练习“你好”....

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/niahrya
niahrya
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I'm also missing the way to get Lingots through leveling up - how am I supposed to "buy" the extra lessons which can be bought with Lingots if I am not able to receive them anymore? - very disappointing. At least, I kept my 28 Lingots, but that's not even enough to buy the next bonus content. ;-/

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HumaShaz
HumaShaz
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I have been using Duolingo for more than a year and a half and I was absolutely in love with it until this entire "Crowns" update came along. I personally don't like it one bit. First they updated my French tree for which I am very grateful (I really am), then they gave me "Crowns". Since then, I have been confused, angry, upset and heartbroken. I personally don't care about the fluency meter because it really doesn't reflect my actual French speaking ability but is more of an indication of where I stand in Duolingo's course. But what I do care about was my ability to choose between practicing individual lessons of a skill and an entire skill. I no longer have an idea as to what new words I am going to learn in any given lesson. I don't know about other people but before it was like an incentive for me to stare at the word list of each lesson and trying to figure out their meanings based on my knowledge. Now, I have lost that fun (sic). Again, why don't the skills decay over time. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as to why this particular feature was overlooked. I very much favour it since it keeps reminding me that I need to revise my earlier lessons from time to time. It has also helped with improving my vocabulary. I know that team Duolingo has put in a lot of effort in all this except it was not what most of us, Duolingo users, wanted. I pray for a better tomorrow when team Duolingo is able to strike a proper balance between what we actually want and this entire chaos that has been let loose on Duolingo under the assumption of improving our language learning capability.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Soolrak
Soolrak
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I'm not a big fan of Crowns, but I think we need to adapt to it, and if Duolingo says it's for our own benefit, I believe them and support them. I am loyal to you, green owl.

Thanks for all, Duo.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
Thomas.Heiss
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but I think we need to adapt to it

Hi Soolrak,

Why do we "need" to adapt it right now?

Because investors, "business developers" and programmers have finally decided to roll out the "Skill crown level" (BETA) code as it is right now?

Don't you think it would be better to incorporate all user feedback (negative, concrete suggestions, change requests, etc.) and find a way in the next ~6-12 months to enhance and improve the current BETA code to it fits more (especially long-term) users before FORCING an update instead of opt-in / opt-out?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Charles215113

Right on the money. We don't need to adapt to ❤❤❤❤. We will adapt if we feel like it, when we're ready and not before. Better go polish your jackboots soolrak, the Führer will want you on parade soon!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Springjade

It would be great if you reinstate progress tests.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sh.rodz

Wait, these crowns are absurd... Why do I have to pass 9 exercises to get a crown at the basic level???? I lived in Italy for six months and can conjugate in the subjunctive, for fish's sake! I have to translate "I am a girl" 50 times to have a golden tree when I'm in level 17????? Honestly, this is so discouraging as an advanced learner of a language.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/edbonjokian

Ach du heilige scheiße.

After a long time away from Duolingo, over the past month I have been steadily working through all of the lessons I had previously completed and turning them gold, and I was almost back to where I had left off previously. Tonight I logged on and realised I had a couple lessons that needed strengthening, I completed one and then the carpet was ripped out from under me. Crowns? What happened to all my progress, unceremoniously knocked back to beginner, not in reality, but now I feel like I have to get everything back to a high level. Get the "crowns" maxed out.

I think to myself, be patient, use this as an opportunity to solidify the basics, and improve on dative and accusative cases. So I try the basics lesson to see what the new look is all about. Translate man to German. "Okay, Mann." Then woman. "Frau." Now water. "Wait where are the articles? You want me to review these basics to level up crowns, but you are not even going to challenge my knowledge of articles in a language that demands you memorise the article with the noun? That was getting to level 3 of basics, which then just repeated the same words.

Skip ahead? But where? I now have to pick through the different lessons to find where I fit, where my skills and knowledge are weak. I am not pleased. My learning is disrupted, my love of this app is crushed, and I am finding it hard to continue with Duo.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/garciaefremov
garciaefremov
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"This is a total redesign of the skill tree that solves one of Duolingo’s biggest challenges: remaining fun for casual learners while still offering advanced content for serious learners."

That is pretty good gaslighting. Here is an excerpt from a book subtitled "The Future of Education". The antecedent for "he" in this passage is Luis von Ahn.

"He devised it in a startup that he launched in 2012 called Duolingo. The site and smartphone app help people learn foreign languages— something he can empathize with, having learned English as a young child in Guatemala. "But the instruction happens in a very clever way. The company has people translate texts in small phrases at a time, or evaluate and fix other people's translations."

I did not understand why the immersion "feature" was eliminated, because it was half of the founding goal. Now I do understand - Duolingo has pivoted. The twofer originally conceived by Dr. von Ahn, 1) help people learn foreign languages and 2) translate texts (which was where the money was supposed to come from) is now a different twofer: 1) show ads/get paid, and 2) get paid not to.

Anyway, since you are now a game company, you might consider that from a gaming perspective, I was working on both long-term and short-term quests which are now unachievable, and your new game does not even have a character class that I like. I came here to perform unpaid translation work, but turns out you only like me for my ad revenue. Sad trombone dot com.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/garciaefremov
garciaefremov
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Two days later, final update: I haven't practiced since doing exactly one lesson on the first day I got crowns. Since then, I've let my 86-day streak die. I am leaving Duolingo and I regret nothing. My final score is 39,978 XP, 1045 lingots, with seven owls earned. An additional seven owls were abandoned incomplete.

This is Felicia, signing off.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIngTheThing
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Instead of a pointless crown system, why didn't they just add newer material and/or polish the courses, either by correcting all the mistakes and missing translations within them or adding more vocabulary. There's a ton of ways these courses can be improved. I personally thought the DuoLingo team was more creative than this.

To me this is similar to when political parties supposedly change, which they usually accomplish by updating their logo, in order to fool voters think that they changed their ways or are no longer all about corruption, but when in reality we all know nothing changed. Why? Well after having to do 36 lessons of a particular lesson just to obtain "Crown Level 5", I realized there wasn't any difficulty progression, unless you consider tedious repetition as such. Basically, it's just the same old same old sentences arranged differently. No such challenge whatsoever. So I guess, the only thing that really changed within the app was the presentation or the way it was wrapped.

It makes sense why they don't encourage one to do all five crown levels at once, because then it would be clearer that there wasn't any improvement at all.

*When I come to think about it, why not enable DuoLingo to help learners obtain an intermediate level language proficiency instead of a meager beginner level? Anybody reaching level 25 on any given language course on this platform here has probably noticed this.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tlaguz
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It's actually amazing how Duolingo manages to get worse with every update. Adding more unnecessary and not user-friendly stuff instead of fixing existing bugs, nice. No option to review the part of the lesson that the learner needs at the moment or see the list of words? Seriously? You say you "consider" bringing it back but I don't understand how you've managed to get an idea that getting rid of this would be a great addition to the course. Surely no one is going to bring back the old system because it doesn't work like this. And no, I won't give this "crown" system a chance and won't try to adjust to it. I rarely comment on anything at all but this site has been a part of my daily routine for years and I'm very disappointed now. I hope you'll listen to the suggestions made by other Duolingo users and improve this new system so that they'll stay on this site. But I'm choosing to just buy a textbook/app/course at some better place instead of wasting my time here.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ViticellaV
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Here's a suggestion: Instead of trying to fix a system that's already running smoothly, why not try to fix the things that aren't? Duolingo has been rolling out upgrade after upgrade, and they come with errors and downsides that don't seem to get fixed. Like the hints covering the box your typing in or the unclear male voice in German. If you try to 'fix' something that's already working, you're going to meet a lot of resistance. Personally, I find the 'crown' system a minor nightmare. Usually I practice just until my German tree's golden, strengthen a skill or two in Russian, and then some other languages. Now I can't tell which ones need to be strengthened at all.

But if this has to be a thing, why don't you give the users the choice as to whether or not they use the crown system? For some who find re-strengthening skills daily frustrating, it might be a major improvement, but for others, like me, it's a bummer. Letting us decide seems like a logical option.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Spacegrrrl42

Terrible update. Awful. I keep running out of health, practicing doesn't "reward" you anymore, and if I see "I am a girl. I am a boy" one more time I'm going to scream. Why am I doing kindergarten level practice when I was almost finished completing the entire board? I'm outtie.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Philip_Sloper

I can't think of a single positive thing to say about the changes to "crowns". Doing all the basic stuff again is incredibly boring, and I am making mistakes because of sheer boredom! What is the point of it? I want to learn more Italian not repeatedly go over and over again stuff that I know already. It's not revision, it is turgid and boring. 0 out of 10 for the changes, Duolingo.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bahalam
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Yes it sounded like a nice addition to some. Now more people are finding out that it's just an utter disappointment. Every user who needs that mental satisfaction of seeing their tree golden, will be desperately refreshing simple sentences such as "I am a fly", "He is a snake" for lifetime, hoping that there are harder questions to come. There are NOT! This not what they deserve. They have spent the most valuable thing they had. Their TIME! Some have even donated and paid for subscription. This is not how you guys repay us. You wanna test out your ideas and see how people complain? Okay, do it. But the crown system is not in a condition to be made compulsory. Please just hear us out and include an option to Enable/Disable this. Give us the right and freedom to choose the system we enjoy. Isn't that the most effective parameter of learning? This used be the app I really loved spending time with. At least stop that nonsense with the ascending number of lessons for each crown level. Not need to mention that Health is being graduated from A/B testing and will soon join the party to make this repetition literally IMPOSSIBLE. Take action, otherwise many of your loyal users will have to kiss this app Goodbye. If you really intended to elevate our motivation, I can assure you that it is the exact thing we have lost now completely. Prevent that if you should....

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vivifie2

I may be unique, but I just want to learn the language. I don't care about Lingots or any external motivators. I thought I had extreme patience for exercises that would be boring to others, but this "Crowns" roll out has exceeded my limits. So far, I have seen no increase in difficulty -- just endless iterations of : I am a woman and you are a man. How many hours of this would I have to go through to get the the level I was practicing before this unwelcome change appeared. (I had completed the tree and gone back often to refresh and relearn.) Is there no way to offer the old system to those who want to stick with it? PLEASE!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Me too! PLEASE bring back the old system!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/grootgroot

Maybe you have a good point: there are many people with different levels, way of learning etcetera. What Duolingo is doing: to make is equal for every type of learner: skilled, way of learning, how much you want to repeat is and what et cetera. If you want to repeat, now it is not possible, only how DL describes it so you see many exercises so very simple and a lot of repetition in it. I can imagine that an it professional who works on it is very proud of the results. Maybe there is also a need for professional help about programming, way people learn, how you can make the program more adaptive, and so on. There is a bottom of knowledge under Duolingo about learning but however not understood by everyone. So more emphasis on how people learn will be a good idea

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mac244295
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Is anyone else finding that the mindless repetition of simple words or phrases, particularly in the basic levels, is causing them to lose concentration and make simple translation errors. Duo, I know what Oui means in French, mulher,menina and menino in Portuguese etc etc and these and similar words are never likely to fall from the memory.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/buck72
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Thank you for your detailed explanation. After reading many of the recent comments, I was becoming a bit apprehensive about converting to the new crown levels, but now am looking forward to it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hughcparker
hughcparker
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I'm really pleased and relieved to find out that the practice button is still going to be around. I rely on Duolingo scheduling my revision so I don't have to :)

Thanks for the re-assurance.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gabetrav

If anyone has any idea where this button is, I’d appreciate it. The screen shots in the Apple App Store don’t match the actual app.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/pentaan
pentaan
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Practice instead of doing a lesson:
Tap the blue button with the white dumbell
(in the Android App: at the bottom of the screen, in the right corner)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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Dear Karint,

We will roll out Crowns to EVERYONE in the next few weeks.

But now I will definitely hit my head against the wall!

Is there a way to turn off crowns?: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26651173

Multiple users have created multiple threads like this that they want to ROLLBACK and disable crowns.
Your team is clearly not listening to their userbase!
If you FORCE users into using it, you might lose users!

Q: Why do you want to even close the workaround to DISABLE crowns for those users, who 1000% do not want it right now???


Reverse trees and laddering in the new crown system: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26710993

Not ANY of the specific reverse tree questions have been picked and answered by your team in this FAQ thread! :(

Crown System Improvement?: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26650780

This thread contains a lot of other quotes from threads which have linked into to have a "central place".

Luis has responded to this thread - so your CEO must already be aware of all of my thoughts and fears from other users about reverse trees, if he is still subscribed to this thread??!?

Not any of my 2+ code user setting suggestions have been picked up by your development team!! Why?

Would you please confirm?!

Would you please answer those specific questions about reverse trees in a 2nd Crowns reverse and laddering FAQ thread?

Thank you for taking your time.


Is there any option to opt-out from this FORCED rollout in 2018 and Q1/2019 (maybe Q2/2019)?

I really want to first finish my two PT-DE and PT-EN reverse trees on the "old Duo strenghten system" for at least the next 9-12 months.

I told your team by giving feedback in multiple "crown threads" that I am very thankful, that you gave me the opt-in option with the "Upgrade now" button you gave 10% of your users as explained by you above.

I really do not want to be FORCED now into this IMHO "more half-baked BETA" Crown level code right now with ZERO user advanced customization abilities, which will surely (>85-90% or greater) corrupt my reverse trees!

Shall I close my eyes and just let it happen?
Shall I abandon DuoLingo and move to something else?
.
.
I have ZERO interests to go from Crown level 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 step by step, just to maybe finally get some longer and much more difficult (Portuguese) sentences for L4/L5 (we both know this will probably not happen as it will be switched?!)!!!

And even this will be 100% wrong for L4+L5 as your NEW crown system will simply replace L1 Portuguese translations (my goal!) with L2 German or English translations (the target language for the PT-DE or PT-EN tree).
.
.
The reverse tree could currently even be further optimized, by turning OFF all different target exercise challenges (e.g fill in the blank, select from 3-6 options, etc.) and replace ALL OF these additional "challenges" you introduced in 2017 and 2018 by only one strict typing or multiple-choice challenge on the web portal into the L1 Portuguese (to be practiced) language.
.
.
I am a long-term (Java) developer myself.
I know how easily it SHOULD BE to just add 2-3 more (advanced, difficulty, etc.) user settings for EACH tree.
This won't take your team probably more than 3-5 days to develop and test.
Let's say 10-20 work days including QS and detail ALPHA tests.
Within a 3 months period you could have users apply for these "reverse tree enhancement" tests and get ton's of useful feedback to sort out bugs!!!

Is your Scala backend code really that inflexibel to be enhanced BEFORE a forced mass-rollout to ALL users???

By not listening, your team is really going to make all "long-term advanced DuoLingo members" pretty mad!

Look at the SHOF www.duolingo.eu site.

You might lose all of them!

Do you really think that anybody of this target userbase is interested to go from Crown levels L0 to L1 to L2,... sequentially for a reverse or laddering tree to focus on only the too easy basic stuff if they have already been practicing their target languages for 1 to 1,5 years AND finished their forward tree(s) (golden owl)???

Ich und viele andere würden so darauf hoffen dass Ihr Eure Meinung ändert!

Viele Grüße / Best regards from Germany

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Terry614373
Terry614373Plus
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I went to level 5 on the very last skill in the Spanish course. There was no increase in difficulty in any of the levels. They were all the same dialogs. I’m not happy that I won’t have a completely Golden Spanish tree anymore. I tested out of every level I was allowed to test out of. I only completed the last 7-8 skills. So, now all of my basic skills are at crown level 1-3, with the majority being at level 1. Everybody lives to see a solid gold tree, but do you think for one minute that I’m going back and doing basics 30 times each to get them all back to gold? This is really frustrating.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hermesianax
Hermesianax
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Thomas, the test-out for multiple skills will still be there, right? For laddering trees, that should be about enough, I think. I can imagine it might not get you far enough in reverse trees, but let's be honest, they have always been a kind of artificial way of getting more translation into the target language. And that is supposed to be solved now with this system by reaching lvl 4-5.

I don't know, I still haven't received the update yet. But equally I don't think you have already reached that many lvl 5's yet to properly judge this.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dlhgl
dlhglPlus
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getting more translation into the target language

I have some golden skills now on my Polish tree and for crown level 5 there were definitely more translations into the target language than the other way round. There were even several lesson where I only had to answer in the target language. That's great and a good way to improve my Polish knowledge.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hermesianax
Hermesianax
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That's absolutely awesome to hear! I hope it won't be too much of a pain to get multiple skills to level 5 in order to actually profit from those more advanced exercises.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
Thomas.Heiss
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Hi Hermesianax,

the test-out for multiple skills will still be there, right? For laddering trees, that should be about enough, I think I can imagine it might not get you far enough in reverse trees

Well, Matfran had described this in 2017 in another thread (sorry, I have no link, would love to re-read it for myself!) in more detail from his experience:

  • Test-outs won't show you all words / all available sentences.
  • And your max. seen (learned) words count is definitely effected if you would do this.

I could see it with my DE-EN and EN-DE trees where I used the "Placement test" and "Checkpoint test outs" and "Skill test out".

As my PT-DE reverse tree teaches so many NEW vocabularies, I will definitely use the normal lesson-by-lesson and skill-by-skill sequential concept.

Not a single "test out"!!
I really want to see ALL available sentences and vocabulary!

they have always been a kind of artificial way of getting more translation into the target language. And that is supposed to be solved now with this system by reaching lvl 4-5.

No, this will not address different course content and more complex (native) Portuguese material, e.g "the jumping Subjunctive" out of nowhere, Portuguese sentences of more difficulty within the PT-DE and PT-EN reverse trees.

A reverse tree is not an 1:1 exact clone of a forward tree.
Content and sentences will vary to an extent!

I can even see this at my PT-DE 36,1% tree progress mark.
.
.
I quoted georgeoftruth and jzsuzsi from other threads (with links) and tried to describe here in more detail what I mean: "Crown system improvement" https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26650780$comment_id=26713564

AFAIU the same has been e.g said for the Spanish-English reverse tree (before the EN-SP bigger tree update from ALPHA test) in other threads, that this tree explores different content and many learners liked it / benefited from it - including the "jumping Subjunctive" across several skills "out of nowhere"?!?

And that is supposed to be solved now with this system by reaching lvl 4-5.

Honestly, I have no idea.
Other learners have said, that content (sentence) difficulty has not changed for them that much reaching higher crown levels.

This could be course specific, how many longer and more complex sentences (more difficult rated by the system) are in the course database, but have been put back for a while because of many users dropping out.

I don't know, I still haven't received the update yet. But equally I don't think you have already reached that many lvl 5's yet to properly judge this.

I posted it in another thread, that the SHOF "Practice (Skill strengthen)" button gave me some sentences on crown level L2, where the "sentence" discussion have been last updated (2) 3 or 4 years ago.
This was the case for English-Portuguese (from English).

It has been said by others, that older sentences (hidden) have been re-activated.
I don't know on what dedicated crown levels this might happen.

I somehow still believe that the hidden "Skill strengthen" button might ignore crown levels L2-L5, as it was not adjusted (re-programmed) for crowns?!?
.
.
I do not believe that I will reach crown levels L4-5 in 2018 for my EN-PT tree for a single skill in the second half / last quarter of my tree! :-)

[Crown conversion BUG] Not a single L3 skill; 39 golden skills wrongly migrated to L2 for my 1,5 years tree with "simple" conversion: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26853820

Their crown conversion "simple" rule put me into crown L2 for most of my skills, very few (not practiced heavily since I finished my tree 11/2017) have been L1.
Not a single L3 crown skill! :-(

So this will take time (2019++) as I will focus first for the next 3-6 months on re-strengthening (100%) single skills.
Maybe for a few "Grammar skills" I will do lessons to move from L2 to L3.

But I definitely think that crowns L4 + L5 in my EN-PT tree won't give me exactly the same skill / sentence content which I will see for the PT-DE and PT-EN reverse trees (teaching a native PT speaker German or English) even on a L0/L1 crown level.

Viele Grüße / Best regards

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RandoLukk
RandoLukk
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But why do we have to use health all the time now. In the old version, if you completed a skill, you could redo the same skill without the fear of losing health. If there are more health lessons, why not make the health regenerate for a smaller time?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Niggle2
Niggle2
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I agree 100%. I have generally done about ten to fifteen sessions each day and I was able to maintain my ‘health’ by practicing old skills to make up for health lost in new skills. Now that health is lost in every skill I can no longer do the amount of practice I used to do. How is that meant to help me learn?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FowlLanguage

I think you can still practice from the health tab to refill your health.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RandoLukk
RandoLukk
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Also, the health is only in iOS devices. But for some reason, Hungarian, Korean and Japanese do not use health in iOS devices.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/-.Andrew.-
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Probably because they're newer trees, I bet.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Terry614373
Terry614373Plus
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And why does the health decrease in one language affect all of your languages? There should be a separate “Health” wheel for every language you’re taking!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/-.Andrew.-
-.Andrew.-
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Wait, you guys still have health system?
I thought that was eliminated long ago.

I feel really bad for you guys then... : (

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FowlLanguage

I definitely still have it on my iPhone.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Yoreni4

"We’re trying to figure out ways to display Crowns better so that people can be satisfied hitting each level, not just Level 5."

I Have an idea maybe instead of gold only equals lvl 5 maybe make ot that lvl 4 goes silver and lvl 3 goes bronze

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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I like this, but levels 1 and 2 need something as well. Maybe just going all blue for level one and all red for level two, and then the red flows well into bronze for level 3. ?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Yoreni4

idk having colours for lvl 1 and 2 cos maybe if the differnt colours started at 3 then people might get more movavation to get lvl 3 we could have a colour for lvl 2 but i think lvl 1 should just be normal colour

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/WillDukes3
WillDukes3
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I think the gold/silver/bronze idea is by far the best for how to do colors - I really hope they do this. As a small variation, you could use bronze for level 1, silver for level 2, and gold for level 3, and then add something extra as visual indicators of levels 4 and 5 - like a laurel wreath, or stars, or a crown.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dinnernugget
dinnernugget
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Sorry for being late to the party, but if you're at Crown Level 5 in a certain skill, do you have any incentive to ever practice that skill again?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bahalam
Bahalam
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Yes. I was here to "LEARN". Of course if I someday feel that my knowledge about a certain skill is fading. I'll refresh it. Or I'll do a few general refreshes just as review. And we are not going to leave the app, if they give us what we deserve for our hard work. We're going to learn other languages and keep recommending this to anyone. In fact, I made the Spanish Tree golden. I was going to finish German Tree too. However if I see that I am NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO SEE GOLD again, in that case I might lose my persistency (Streak) and never be motivated to restart, especially if I know in order to achieve that I'm gonna come here and answer the same stupid questions about a very easy subject again and again and again. Just think about I am a turtle, You are an apple. You have to do this tens of times!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/coto.i
coto.i
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No more 404 please!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Harpissima
Harpissima
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Screw crowns, such utter BS!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/beatricejane

This is going backwards over well practised ground just to get to where I was before. Not an improvement

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NebraskaJonnes

Ugh, I hate the new system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Charles215113

Welcome to the club. You join an ever growing population of users who think Duolingo now sucks. For what it's worth, I'm right with ya.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/E.T.Gregor
E.T.Gregor
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"Since levels get harder as you go up, we didn’t feel comfortable placing anyone at Level 4 or 5, since the old system didn’t give hard enough exercises to place into these levels." - I thought that meant that things actually got more difficult! But I'm getting the exact same sentences as before! I've just powered through one of the smaller skills in the Swedish tree to see what there was at level 5 and I haven't seen a single sentence even at level 5 that I didn't know before! And since I did most of my learning on the computer, I don't even get them in a harder format. Actually, since there's no time limit anymore, this got EASIER. I'm a little disappointed right now...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wstockall
wstockallPlus
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If you "powered through" to level 5, you have the timed practice available on at least that one skill. It shows again once you have the skill to level 5, but currently not before. Hm. I haven't checked to see if it shows up on a general "strengthen" practice. Maybe I'll try that later tonight.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Voivode1456
Voivode1456
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So far I HATE everything about the new system! Perhaps you should have started out by shooting out that email because I did not know this was coming at all! I follow a very specific study regimen that is not compatible with the new system at all. So I am essentially stuck starting over! Feeling pretty pissed at the moment!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alkimeer
Alkimeer
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Ik ook.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/michelle959893

I have a 696 day streak in Russian, and no, I don't want to have to do the Alphabet lesson 15 times (along with all the others that are ingrained in my memory) again. I was a plus subscriber. Just cancelled my subscription.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnnaMosbyColeman
AnnaMosbyColeman
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Unfortunately the crown system is boring. That my most fluent language, French, was reduced to a very basic level is completely discouraging -- especially since the basic level learning exercises are designed for brand new language learners. After a 783 day streak, and using the crown system for two days, I am thinking of quitting Duolingo. I loved Duolingo. Do other longtime users have a similar feeling?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/YarkoRab
YarkoRab
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Unfortunately many of us have similar feelings. When I see I have to go over my 25th level Italian fromthe beginning makes me feel sick, really. Sono un ragazzo, Lei beve l'acqua - I was there a long time ago. I think some way to level up quickly would be a very welcome addition. I strongly believe that having seen all negative comments they are goingto make some changes, to our mutal satisfaction.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Yes, I totally feel the same way!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kenmerk
kenmerk
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Yup. I'm totally done with it. It's vandalization.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gamekkeut

Thanks for the rundown of common concerns!

I don’t have experience with the crown system yet (not sure if it’s available for beta languages, but Korean remains in the old system), but I’ve been pretty interested in the response since the switch began. I’m actually fairly excited to see Duolingo take into account the cries for more complex structures, just so that those of us who are more advanced will want to stick around longer.

If y’all can figure out a way to give us a visual as aesthetically satisfying as a golden tree, you’ll hit a home run!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
Lrtward
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It is available for beta languages. When I got crowns, it affected ALL my languages, the ones I'm learning from English, from other languages, and Czech which is in beta.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gamekkeut

Thanks!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Stardust103158

Since fluency has had so many flaws in the past and some people just flat-out don't want it, perhaps a better indicator that would be far more relevant would be an indicator that showed at what language learning level a person was: A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3, etc.That is actually how a person learning a new language is able to gauge their mastery and would more relevant to us. I realize this would taken some programming and be down the road, but it is a thought for the future.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mereade
Mereade
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While this idea is in general not bad, there are two catches. First of all, there are no A3 and B3 levels (and Duo goes to B1 at most and probably not in all the trees). Secondly, these CEFR levels may not fit the Duolingo course exactly, as each tree has been made by a different team and may have chosen a bit different way to order things from the order in most coursebooks these days. That is not a bad thing, not at all, it just may be different for the cefr level assignation.

Also, these levels might lead people to wrong assumptions about their level, just like fluency did. To actually get to the level, you need much more practice and I am afraid Duo is gonna be too superficial even after this change. But who knows, perhaps the Crowns will make the exercises complex and hard enough to really cover at least the low levels in enough detail. And Duo would still be giving us just the part of the theoretical base for the level, so it would be a mistake to consider oneself really an A2 or B1 just with Duolingo.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
Thomas.Heiss
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would be an indicator that showed at what language learning level a person was: A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3, etc

A3 and B3 are not available in CEFR.

Although most classroom courses sub-divide between B1.1, B1.2, B2.1, B2.2, A2.1, A2.2, etc.

CEFR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

ILR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale
http://www.govtilr.org/skills/ILRscale2.htm

Common European Framework: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

FSI e.g lists languages within a difficulty table (how many class hours) to reach "Speaking 3: General Professional Proficiency in Speaking (S3)" and "Reading 3: General Professional Proficiency in Reading (R3)" levels:
Voxy coloured chart: https://voxy.com/blog/2011/03/hardest-languages-infographic/
Table list: http://multilingualbooks.com/languagedifficulty.html

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bill147479
Bill147479
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I used to be quite optimistic about the Crowns update because I'd like to see harder exercises, but now I have it I realised what it's actually for. DL wants you to study more/redo lessons and use up health, which you can't spend on revising skills on the old system. Once it runs out, the harder lessons are no use of you educationally because you're locked out of the app for 5 hours. It's just a possibility, I would like it if the health bars recharge sooner or DL be more transparent about this. IMHO, the fluency meter is misleading and should be replaced by more useful metrics.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Terry614373
Terry614373Plus
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Do you realize we have to computer each skill level 100 times each before it turns gold? Do you realize that skill levels that people tested out of because they already knew that part, are at level 1? Do you realize this app is now very boring for me? Is anybody from Duolingo even reading these posts?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/krejd
krejd
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I just got the crowns update myself.

I miss being able to see words in each lesson.

We can consider bringing it back in some form, but right now we think investing in better ways to see and practice words makes more sense.

This should really be a priority. If I can't see the words I learned in a particular section of the course - because you think it's better for me and you give me no other choice - it means it's a bad system really.

Also, this way I have no idea what I'm gonna learn in my next lesson (because there is no list of words for that section whatsoever). It's a bad design for sure.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Andrea907531

I always did a new lesson twice. Now I have to wait with the repetition until I have done a whole circle of lessons. That's to much new input, before I can start to repeat it! I think I now have to write down each new lesson in an exercise book while I'm doing it, to be able to repeat it later. That's really less fun.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

I'm sorry to be repetitive, but some of the problems with the new system are being repeated, and the following will solve some of them: https://duolingo.eu/Andrea907531/progress/ As well as showing you the current Strength of each Skill (they do decay with time), if you click on a Skill there, it presents the lessons in the old format, along with word lists and the ability to Redo a lesson.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/none4

Useful info, thanks! BUT, you can redo ONLY the first lesson and all the others are LOCKED!!! How foolish is that! Even though I have already completed them once before.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ALLintolearning3
ALLintolearning3
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No, the content of all the lessons in the skill are there, but you have to click on the same button over and over to get to them all.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kalirush
kalirush
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I'm pretty confused here- it says in this FAQ that all our completed lessons are still completed. But in fact, not a single one of my lessons is listed as complete- forex on the first lesson I have 3 crowns but the lessons are 0/6. If I have to go back and retake every single lesson from the start of the tree (with no option to test out), I'm going to be extremely frustrated. Is that really the deal?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Margolf

that is exactly what it looks like for me -- whole tree was gold - it reset everything to 1 or 2 crowns.......and in order to do anything starts me with the basic basic basic ........I want to poke my eyes out about now.......no fun AT ALL......

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/widle
widle
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The 0/6 means your progress from level 3 to 4, not from zero.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kalirush
kalirush
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I see. So in fact, in order to get the tree gold, I have to do the entire tree five times? That's... a waste of ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ time. Unless they really have more advanced material, which a preliminary investigation of my tree indicates they do not.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CarynJoy
CarynJoy
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I miss seeing the words. I also miss being able to redo a lesson. It helps me to be able to go back over a lesson, learning a few words at a time, rather than having to do them all at once and then it getting harder before I'm ready. I guess I could use the review and copy the exercises, but that's more work. Maybe a repeat previous lesson option or a category word bank page?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Panda.Dani
Panda.Dani
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This is just me and my strange personality

When my changed to the crowns today it drove me CRAZY to see crowns that had different numbers all over the place. I want mine to be at level 5 before I move forward so I had to start my whole tree over, I'm bummed that I'm like this but it just drove me crazy.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

Definitely not just you! It’s driving me crazy too... Honestly if DL don’t get their sheet cake together soon, I’m gone

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KirkNichol

I like that lessons seemingly have greater depth, but I find it frustrating how I can't re-take the previous lesson. I prefer to learn only a few words at a time, and find it very difficult if the only way to review words I've just been exposed to is to learn new words or increase the difficulty of the lesson.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Contrapunctus_

I really miss the word list in each section!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KellyShand
KellyShand
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Please bring back the visual of the lessons and the option to choose them. I dislike not being able to pick and choose my own lessons in a specific area. If I need to repeat a lesson for better clarity you have taken that option away from me, and your users.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/artworkings

What the **** have you done???? I hate it! I was full skill on each level now I am almost back at the begining! Restore it or at least give us the option!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jessaboehner

When my system updated to crowns, the option for chatting with bots disappeared. Is it possible to get that back? It was one of my favorite ways to practice!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HelpfulDuo
HelpfulDuo
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Hi jessaboehner! Bots was removed temporarily from the iOS app, and they are coming back in a more integrated way. They are not gone forever! Please keep in mind that that change is unrelated to Crowns.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

Yay! That is wonderful news! The bots are a favorite for me!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/elmanisero777
elmanisero777
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Are they going to be available to other forms of Duolingo soon?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Juliane339717
Juliane339717
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Great to hear they´ll be back - I love them

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnnaBalint2

Dear Duolingo Team,

I have been on duolingo for a few years now and would first of all like to thank you for the years of happy Portuguese learning I have had so far. I have always appreciated the fact that I can up my Portuguese vocabulary and actually revisit the items that I genuinely "forgot". One year ago you introduced the advertisements, which was annoying but bearable as I understand that you have to make money somehow. But what you did now is not user -centric at all! Maybe it will give you a temporary boost in profits due to the sheer amount of adverts one has to watch to make any language learning progress at all. (That is if not all your users will wake-up and find a better platform out there within the next few hours.)

I tested this crown system on the simple Tu/voce item in Portuguese, and guess what? After I did an entire lesson of Portuguese baby level (which I was able to test-out of even when I started learning with you guys), I then levelled up to crown two. Within crown 2, I had to do the exact same lesson twice (same same lesson as in crown level 1!) to level up to crown 3, and guess what, then the exact same lesson was waiting for me there again thrice to be able to level up to crown 4. If you gave me this exercise even as a 7 year old at school I wouldn't do it, and here you go playing with your millions of dedicated adult users who are looking at you for a source of genuine learning. And you want to lose all their trust?

This example as seen on the short tu/voce lesson is ridiculous, it has nothing to do with language learning but is just a way for us to watch more adverts on your platform.

For all users looking for effective alternatives to spend the majority of their learning on I can recommend mangolanguages. I am definitely going back to them as my primary source of language learning after I have now been let down by you guys. Hope that you can still change your new income/advert attitude in the future.

Best regards and also good luck to all you learners out there, Lumbymon

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kangaroolotty

thanks for the tip - I shall try mangolanguages! I am also feeling like l'll be leaving duolingo asap unless they sort this out. shame as it was really effective.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Elliot2560
Elliot2560
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I think you guys probably interpreted the "time spent on website/app" metric wrong on this one. People who are set back by the crown feature are desperately trying to get back their original golden tree, and that requires so many more mind numbing practices now, so they spend more time on the website. That is by no means a good thing, and shouldn't be taken as indication that the crown feature is good.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vivifie2

Exactly. I am about to give up. Repeating the same thing over and over , I started trying to get past it , but now am getting ready to give up.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/guineagirl96
guineagirl96
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I couldn't agree more. I can't believe they would use time spent on the app as an indicator of the crowns being good.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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Agreed. People are scrambling now, but that's not an indication of a long term metric.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/nettsooon

I think the new Crown system doesn't give any good overview of what i should practice on next. This Crown system has been in the app since I started using it, but I always preferred using the desktop version as keeping all my skills golden was more of a motivation.

I've studied French for years, and when i started using Duolingo a few months ago I got tested out of a lot of basic skills. This new Crown system has now placed me on level 1 on all of these basic skills. It's quite insulting! I just spent 1 h repeating "i am a girl", "a woman eats an apple, "a man" to see what level 5 is like. I saw minimal change in difficulty, only dull repetition. I have mastered the basic skills, but the tree doesn't reflect that anymore.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristineB623986

OMG. After spending many hours the last few days trying to catch up on the skills I already had before they were obliterated I now find I will have to complete 30 lessons to gain Level 5 on this silly new system for French foods which I have known for 40 years. I and most other more advanced learners do not have this sort of time to waste! As my German and Spanish knowledge is more basic the new system might work but for those of us who just want to improve language we already know it is frankly ridiculous. PLEASE PLEASE sort it out.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/YarkoRab
YarkoRab
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It is so dissatisfying to find out that your practice button doesn't have any influence on regilding the circles! I'm sick of repeating for the hundreth time: I'm a boy, I eat bread etc. Really! I've done the tree, reached the 25th level, practised much beyond that and what do I get? Come back and do the basics, wow!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wandacleo

I decided to start at the top and try to work my way back through the crowns since I was almost done with the program. This is what I've found. All these myriad tests do not increase in difficulty--they simply recycle the same things over and over again. How many times do you think it takes to figure out that éléphant in French means elephant in English? If the tests are not going to add new information--and so far, there seems to be no explanations or practice, just questions--what is the point?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vivifie2

I agree - after the 40th: I am a girl, you are a boy.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hyacinth3704

I guess what I'm not understanding is why so much development effort and resourcing was put into creating this new system that is disrupting your whole user base rather than addressing where things were missing that users have actively been requesting for ages - access to Tips and Notes from mobile apps for example, and overall consistency of features between platforms.

And I don't understand why the new system abandons features that actively helped people to learn, like the word lists. The OP says they might consider bringing them back someday, but does not give any reasoning why they were dropped. If it's a question of technical issues (more content making it more complex to generate the lists?) then just say so. But just being like "we get that you liked it but we just took it away, sorry" is baffling to me. I get that you believe the new system will get people to use the app more, but are they still learning as effectively as they did before? While I'm not an expert in applied linguistics I have done some intro-level study of the principles, and very little about this change makes any sense to me either from a user-retention standpoint or a language-learning standpoint.

I sincerely hope to be proven wrong as I start really using the new crown levels. I'm going to give them an honest try. But...as it is, the way I'm feeling now, I'll probably wind up cancelling my plus subscription and looking more closely at what other sites and apps have to offer.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wdtpw
wdtpw
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Why would you get rid of spaced repetition, when it's a scientifically proven way of learning a language?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition

Giving out reminders to carry out exercises before they are forgotten was Duolingo's killer feature.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DuoIsDead

Yes it seems so wierd they have all these effective, proven and well implemented tools already out there and just get rid of them, not even behind a paywall but just straight up gut it... To me this feels a lot like the (oversimplification) you hear about pharma industry "Finding a cure doesn't make any money, selling drugs does". To me this update seems more focussed on having people spend more time on the site despite actually learning stuff. They want to get more add impressions, more fake 'achievements' to keep you invested and not actually have you learn the language to a point where you might no longer want to use the site.

I get that there is the Hawthorne effect might skew A/B tests with existing users or that users were simply obssesive trying to 'reflect' their original skill level with the new crowns thereby skewing the percieved effictiveness. But it seems so much logical thought was thrown out the window by just replacing the old system, they could have integrated crowns into the existing decay, slowly rolled it out for skills as better gradual difficulty material became available. Instead they got rid of a ton of essential learning features and turned all the skill levels in a grind of repetitive or identical exercises disjunct from their users skill level in a vast amount of skills for a vast amount of languages.

I think this system might be OK for a new product/new users but its incredibly disruptive to people who already rely on DuoLingo as a tool to learn. If I just want to be entertained by language instead of focussing on learning it I could just watch subtitled documentaries, movies or cartoons in those languages and actually learn something about their culture as well as the language while primarily having fun. DuoLingo's gamification is nice till a certain extent to keep you that little bit more invested but if it starts losing its primary learning focus it loses its raison d'etre.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fitt3
Fitt3
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Not being able to pick an exact exercise really bugs me :((((((((

But I guess it's good for someone who is just starting to learn a language

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
Corinnebelle
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What about gold, platinum and diamond for your levels of decay once you get to level 5 with crowns?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Effie36

First of all, I want to thank you for all the hard work and the thought you've put into updating duolingo. All the changes and the new additions seem promising, and I am looking forward to making the most out of them. However, please bring back the option to redo lessons. While practising is essential to learning and remembering words, sometimes I need to quickly redo a lesson before I practice it. Another thing is that the practice shows words from all the lessons, so if I want to work on a set of words from a specific lesson, I can't simply go back to that lesson and review those words like I used to, now I have to practice and practice hoping to randomly come across those words. (It's actually a good thing, but still, it's annoying...) And like others have commented before me, a list of words before each lesson (besides the tips) would be great, they were really helpful. So again, I am all for the new Crown system, it's awesome, and I think it would be even more awesome if you add those things that to me were very helpful to learning new languages.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Froosje
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I don't like it at all. I used to try and keep all my trees yellow. I could see in one glance what needed extra attention. Now I am totally lost.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JamieBamie05

The gold that you got after you strengthened a lesson was rewarding. It got me motivated to keep moving on to the next lesson, instead, now I feel like I need to keep practicing that one lesson until I made it to the last crown level, and then I don't feel very rewarded when I finally do get the gold. It's very aggravating! Also since the gold doesn't decay after you get it, it feels like I don't have to keep practicing that lesson. Before we were able to practice a lesson, get the gold, and the next couple of days or so the lesson would be colorful again, and I would strengthen it again. It helped me remember all the words that I learned before, and helped me remember that I still had to practice all the lessons, that I've completed, that way I don't forget anything that I've learned in the previous lesson.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

100% with you on that. I’m definitely not learning anything atm....

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MartiniqueAsha

Ok I don't care how nicely you try to word it, I have lost ALL of my progress. Imagine working for months to complete a tree and have it completely gold only to have it all destroyed in the blink of an eye. This is beyond effed up not everyone is looking to move to France and converse with the locals. This change is so disheartening. I was almost there and then you moved the finish line. Its like a kick in the teeth.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/shay307954

Is there any way to get the old system back? This new system is really destroying my progress. I used to be able to revisit lessons and go over them until I really understood the lesson. I'm on prepositions at the moment and I'm just being asked to translate things I don't have a clue about. Its infuriating

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sedlacek_m

YES! Thank you! I’m in the exact same place! It’s infuriating that something that’s supposed to be teaching oh a language in a “fun” manner is now hard, pointless work that results in zero actual learning...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tusiperu
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I thought I was going to feel motivated with the change. But now that I have it, i'm not. It's like I'm doing paperwork dayly to clean the table and one day my boss tells me that I have to clean all the paperwork in the basement. Yeah, no one is asking to do it all in one day, but I really feel overwhelmed.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kangaroolotty

so have you worked it out from the over 500 comments that people do not like this? Please reintroduce being able to test out on skills for a start.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Paris-Syngelakis

about levelling up: in some skills such as ABC in Greek for example I'm already that good that I'd like to test out to directly go to level 5. Unfortunately that is impossible. I want the test out button back!

I'd also like to have the ability to see the vocabulary list of a whole skill. But in the Greek course there are no vocabulary lists at all!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Adrenallen

This crowns thing is annoying and I don't feel like I'm making progress anymore. It would be nice to be able to switch to the version that you personally find more engaging.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JavierAdor

Can the decay be an optional thing? I personally found it really useful in keeping me coming back to the app when i finished my tree. I would pop in my head and see my beautiful golden tree was no longer gold, then immediately feel the need to go back and fix it. This became an enjoyable daily habit that I would be sad to see leave. I understand it may be confusing for new players but by having it optional, those players who have already finished their tree and want to keep practicing will have a mental incentive to do so. Gold keeps us coming back once we have seen it all. It has made my time on duolingo so enjoyable to watch as my little tree returned to it'ts golden state.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnnaMayBates
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I was curious about this new system for days and then I got it this morning... and yeah, I'm disappointed. I have been maintaining my golden Spanish tree, so I was hoping that at least some of my skills would be converted to crown level 5... and nope. I even used to practice skills that were still gold just because I felt like I needed it. But I don't get to make that choice anymore unless I make all the skills gold again, i.e. get to crown level 5 on each.

Basically, the crowns are the lessons presented differently... however that only works if there is enough content, i.e. enough lessons per skill. For early skills like Basics, if the skill was golden at the time of the system change, they ought to have been automatically level 5 with the option to practice. No new lesson was added to them. I know I could just ignore them and do the skills I feel I need but, I need my tree glided again or it's gonna bother me. And still, I have to repeat the same phrases over and over again to get to the actual "practice" of a skill...

I'm an iOS user, so I still have that horrible Health system on the app that locks me out if I make 5 mistakes (often typos) in a new lesson. Thus, I've been using the desktop for new lessons in my other languages and then just do practice on the app. Now trying to get crown level 5s, I have use the desktop to avoid the Health system in trees I've already originally completed, as is still treating Levels 2-5 as new lessons (when they definitely are NOT in the early skills; I cannot attest for the latter, but I'm sure with some languages with less developed trees, it's just more repetition) and not practice even on the first skill sets.

This might work for the casual user, and I can see that skills not decaying being nice for my completionist side (although it's gonna take a long time and be to repetitive), but I also know it's not good for SRS and my daily motivation and general language upkeep.

(and please get rid of the health system. I was hoping it would be gone at this point and yet...)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FarukAkbar

The most important thing for learning a language is practicing and reviewing. With this new system, I am no longer able to know which skills I need to practice, Now I have to robustly practice every single skill without knowing do I really need to practice which. This is a complete failure for practicing and reviewing.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/szabeszg

@Duolingo team: So you rolled out a half baked system? How stupid is that?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/applefoodie
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I have to say my biggest disappointment with the changes is the loss of the word lists. In the past, it was very handy for me to look at the individual lessons within a particular skill and break down the vocabulary lists into manageable chunks. It was also how I created vocabulary lists for me to jot down onto flash cards or other memorization aids. And I could also glance through the word lists and quickly figure out which words I needed to practice more. But all of that is gone, and there's no easy way for me to see which new vocabulary words are presented in each lesson. This is going to make vocabulary building much more difficult.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dgivney

I also want to be super transparent here: Crowns feature sucks.

You didn't give me enough information before forcing this on me and the feature is so half-baked it should not have been released. This rollout was careless and may be see me go elsewhere.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lottie721595

Also, why has my tree suddenly been filled with exercises I was doing a year ago and are so simple it's infuriating. If after a year you don't think I have progressed more than translating 'The men are calm' this is pointless. I was almost at level 23!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AngeCI
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I think some basic skills can immediately go to level 4 or 5 if you go far enough. No one would want to practice the basics for more than 40 times without any variations. Also, there should be a "test out" option.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bill147479
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I don't need to do basics 50 times to get to level 5. They better hurry up with that test out option.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/samsamc1

I actually really like the idea of the Crown system. I think it's awesome that the lessons increase in difficulty the more you repeat a certain skill.

However, I think there are some major issues with the update which are really putting me off continuing with this app:

1) Skills no longer decay. Previously, I would practice any skills which had lost their gold status before learning new content. This was great for guiding me to practice the words which I had not practiced in a long time, helping to reinforce them in my memory. Now I have no way of seeing which skills I ought to re-do.

2) The strengthen lessons (the Dumbell icon) feel useless now. Although they will allow me to practice words which I am weak on, these lessons do not count towards advancing crown levels for particular skills. (Compare this to the previous way in which completing Dumbell lessons would re-gild skills which had lost their gold status, allowing me to visualise my progress.)

3) The number of repetitions required to reach Crown Levels 4 or 5 and access the more difficult exercises is ridiculous. It is tedious and repetitive to have to do 20 or even 30 lessons of the same skill just to level it up so I can access the more difficult questions. There should either be fewer lessons required to level up, or a "test out" feature which allows you to automatically level up based on your proficiency in that skill.

4) The word previews for each lesson are gone. I used to use these to teach myself the definitions and genders of the new nouns I would be learning before jumping into the lessons. Now I can no longer do this. Also, sometimes I want to practice a particular word, but now I cannot find the specific lesson containing that word.

5) I personally do not care too much about the aesthetics of having my entire language tree turn gold. However, I know for a lot of people that this was a huge motivator for them to keep practicing, so I can understand their disappointment. I can also see why veteran players are upset, given that they have invested a lot of time into gilding all of their skills but have now lost it all.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/trilby16

" I think it's awesome that the lessons increase in difficulty" But actually, they don't!

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/-.Andrew.-
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Yes, we already know that.

All they do is that as you increase your crown level in a skill, you have to complete more and more translations/lessons.

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/plesio_saurus

I hate this

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Libertydoc
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Boring! I started with crowns in the basic level today. "I am a boy, you are a girl, I am a man, you are a woman. Yes I am a boy. No I am a boy. You are a girl and I am a boy, ...etc. over and over and over. No way will I ever go back to level that up and get another crown. We'll see what the future offers. My first take is I'm disappointed as I was asked if I would like to try something and find I now can't get rid of it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AmalieB39
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Like many other users who didn't choose to switch to the Crown system, I was involuntarily switched yesterday. Some aspects look promising; but removing Timed Practice until Level 5 has been reached is counterproductive, since it takes an unbelievable amount of work to move through the levels. Timed Practice shouldn't be a reward. It should remain an option for all users at any level in any skill.

I was also puzzled to find that the earlier skills were all set at one crown on my tree, while the later skills which I haven't mastered as well have two crowns. I do peek frequently, before submitting an answer, so I can learn all the suggested translations for a word better; maybe that's why my crown level is so low. But it's a learning method that works well for me.

I agree with many others. I appreciate Duolingo and all the effort that goes into providing it, but I wish the company used verbal feedback from users rather than "metrics" to make changes. Metrics don't explain why users do certain things.

I don't like losing options that help me to learn better. It feels like I'm being penalized for not learning well in what Duolingo considers the "right" way.

Feeling frustrated...and I really don't like complaining about a free resource. Trying to be positive about the changes and hoping that the crown system will be improved so that learning really is optimized.

EDIT after looking at my tree this morning: now all skills have only one crown, except for the one skill I focused on yesterday, which now has three crowns. Three crowns for one day's work?!!! Duolingo, do you really think I'm going to retain that learning, long-term? And why did skills with two crowns yesterday drop to one today? Definitely confused about this new system! Hope there are just glitches that will be straightened out soon. My motivation to WANT to do Duolingo has plummeted.

EDIT #2 Now I understand why people are frustrated that they can't select particular lessons to review in past skills. We're now stuck with progressing via lessons straight through to five crowns, whether we've learned the simpler material or not; some (or maybe lots) of us need to be able to review weak areas often and not be pushed to move forward relentlessly.

No more Duolingo practice today for me. I need an attitude adjustment before I try to continue. Right now, I'm too frustrated.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AmalieB39
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After almost a week on the Crown system and many, many hours wasted trying to figure out how to best use it by scouring the forums, I can now continue learning in Duolingo.

But why doesn't Duolingo just provide the timed practice at all levels as previously, rather than users having to access it before Crown Level 5 by changing the URL and going to another page? At least I was pleasantly surprised that Duo still credits the XPs earned in doing timed practice.

I just discovered official Duo Tiny Cards decks for skills. Kudos for that! Now I can review vocabulary (although I'm finding a few errors in the cards, which will hopefully be corrected soon). I hated trying to make my own decks and had given up on Tiny Cards. It would be great if a Tiny Cards tab could be added to the regular Duolingo website, for easier access.

So - I'm sure the Crown system was implemented for good reasons. I just wish those reasons were evident now and of benefit to long-time users. Having to work around the system to do what I need to, in order to learn, is frustrating, when the options used to be so easily accessible.

Still disgruntled, but at least I don't have to leave Duolingo - which has, until the changes that caused readability issues and the new Crown system confusion, been a fabulous learning tool. Hoping to see improvements very soon.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/markg76

You know when a design change process has gone bad, when people start doing javascript hacks to reverse your changes or when they resort to unofficial sites (duolingo.eu) to work around your design choices.

I have yet to understand why Duolingo is killing spaced repetition when it has been a core feature since the start and a common method for learning. The FAQ answer of "we are going to find a way to do it" is simply inexcusable. It would be extremely easy to offer both methods, old decaying tree and the new one, especially on the desktop where there are no space layout issues. The fact that an option is not given is only showing that there is no "solution" that is coming soon.

For people looking for a work around, you can a) go to your profile at duolingo.eu , for example https://duolingo.eu/markg76/progress/ to see which skills need strengthening b) click on the name of the skill, for example https://www.duolingo.com/skill/fr/Economics c) add "practice" at the end of the address like this https://www.duolingo.com/skill/fr/Economics/practice This also gives access to timed practice!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lisa454630

Mark you’re an absolute god send! Thank you so much for your post. I have a iPhone and was screwed! As much as I’d prefer the app to revert back to normal, I’ll happily take your way. Thank you again Mark, really appreciate your work.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hhisa
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Undecaying skills make no sense. Thatʼs not how memory works. “Learning” is not really the hard part. Remembering is.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MzMolly65

Happy Learning my backside!! I am being pushed right back to the beginning as if I am a brand new member. You don't take a student from grade 4 or 5 and put them back to kindergarten. That's just asking for people to quit. I am more frustrated and disheartened now than I ever have been during my lessons. BOO THIS!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VeasaurusRex

The Crowns upgrade is terrible. It actually makes me NOT want to learn anymore - so if that was your goal, way to go Duolingo. I’m a premium subscriber who used to be fluent in French and was refreshing my skills, and no way would I prefer this system over your old one. I bought the old app, not this crappy new one. Wishing I could get a refund.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Charles215113

If you want to get a refund, ask for one. There are other subscribers here in the same situation and they are asking for refunds too! Maybe the best way to influence their opinion is to hit them in the pocket...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/8ung3st

Spaced repetition was a big reason I loved duolingo. Skill decay represented an accurate model of how language learning actually works. Instead of keeping this core strength you have A/B tested your way to giving the people what they want: The illusion of learning, the comfortable feeling that they will never lose what they once learned.

It might get you results in the short term, but I think you might lose out long term as people start realizing that duolingo has become a less effective tool for acquiring actual language proficiency.

I'm very sad that you did this.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nyarlath

Totally agree. I sincerely wonder how could the A/B testers have given any positive feedback to such a degraded system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BobbySweetkitty

PLEASE GIVE US THE OPTION TO SWITCH BACK.

This is such a disheartening disaster of a move. The way Duolingo was helped me to learn italian and speak it. on days that are busy, I just went to Duolingo and did the ones that needing upkeep. Now I’ve got to answer ‘the boy eats an apple’ 45 times before that skill is off the plate? I totally hate this crown system..

PLEASE GIVE US THE OPTION TO SWITCH BACK.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

I feel I may be paradoxically rewarding the new crown business model. Since crowns appeared yesterday I have spent more time on the site...wrong message... Not because I like it but because I am trying to bring the balance of my Italian up to level 3. I feel cheated on my French. They were all 3s but I have over 56500 XP French points {level 25} and only 26000+ Italian points {just shy of level 25}. The upshot is I am repeating lesson after lesson of the same old stuff. When I do strengthening with time practice, I can't notice any crowns advancing. I can't quite make sense of it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/trilby16

I did that too. I wanted to see if there really were more challenging material as you level up. There is not! I actually did almost 500 XP in one day. Duo: it is not because I was liking the new Crowns, I did it because hate it.

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ngarrang
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The new idea seems interesting, but half-baked. Do you seriously expect someone that has completed a language tree and has kept it completed for a year or more to go back to the very skill and repeat 'I am a boy, you are a girl' a million times to get it to five crowns? That is NOT learning, that is stupidity. When you folks assigned the initial crown levels, there really needed to be a lot more forethought about the level of the skill lesson itself and how long the lesson has been completed.

My Spanish skill is already at level 25, so XP is of little concern to me at this point. I will still do three to five lessons a day as a warm-up before diving into El Pais and YouTube videos, but I will be ignoring this silly crown system. I have zero interest in repeating "La nina come una manzana" enough times to get the first Spanish skill to 5 crowns.

Goodbye to the fluency meter, though.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sleightlysubtle

Please add me to the list of Crown-haters.

It's always a mistake to introduce a major change, call it an improvement, and not give users a choice.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ngarrang
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The fanbois will simply say that it is a free product, so take what you get. Despite the fact that this update is stupid and ineffective. Ooooh! I can be level 5 at saying, "Yo soy una manzana"! Yippee. Stupid update is stupid. This beats the change in Dutch voices that went from one that could be clearly heard to one where the male speaker sounded he was chewing on gravel.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/nanode

I am severely disappointed with this update.

I bought plus (for a full year) around a few weeks ago, and I've been loving the old progression system in the JP course. This new system is god awful, and legitimately made me disinterested in learning the language, at least on your platform.

You may have my $90, but you aren't getting any more money or ad revenue from me until you at least give us an option to revert back.

For now, I'm going to use Memrise, and I suggest everyone else does too. Vote with your wallets.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/rredfearn32

"There are no plans to make skill progress decay over time. Once you earn a crown, you get to keep it! This actually reduced a lot of confusion from learners who felt they lost progress when their skills decayed."

^ This is my biggest problems with the crowns update. Your knowledge DOES decay over time, that's the whole point of spaced repetition! I know some users studying courses that teach alphabets/etc are being made to redo beginner lessons all the time, but the German course doesn't do that. Isn't that just a problem with the individual courses, not the DL system?

Imo, crowns does not reflect how memory works. If you spend a few hours maxing out a unit, you are not going to remember it forever - well, I'm not going to at least. But without the decay, how do we know when we should go back and review things?

And I know I can manually review lessons, and see which individual words are decayed, but that's vastly inferior to DLs previous system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/katiusha17
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Just a bit more feedback - I have been using Duolingo for over a year now, Dutch and German, and am very grateful for the wonderful learning opportunity. However, after a few days of ploughing through the new Crowns system, I have to say that I am frustrated and bored and am not sure I will be able to continue.

The new system seems VERY "low data rate", tedious and just not fun anymore. It takes way too long to get to another crown level, the exercises are now extremely dumbed down and repetitive; I have no feeling of gaining in either actual skills or in "brownie points". Now it takes a tremendous effort, 200-300 XP worth of mindless exercises to even get back to slightly more challenging exercises. Even still, there doesn't seem to be very much difference between a 2-Crown and a 3-Crown exercise set, most of the sentences repeat practically verbatim between the levels. For those sections where mysteriously I was placed at level 0 (even though I made the whole tree golden a few months ago), I just can't imagine going through an infinite number of four and five word sentences just to get back to something mildly challenging (compared to the ones I had just a couple of weeks ago.)

Sorry for the long whine - just so disappointed;(

Some concrete suggestions: 1.) Allow a Test Out or Review Progress Test that would recalibrate your crown level for all exercises. This could be metered out so you could only do it once a month, for example, or you could be asked to pay lingots for it.

Though I'm sure the automatic placement process that exhaustively reviewed every exercise you ever did to convert you to crowns was thorough, it can't take into account all the times you flew sloppily through exercises, typed in English instead of Dutch, or had actual stupid typos.. It is definitely not doing a great job of measuring how challenging your new levels are.

2.) Allow a user to go ahead and try out the most difficult level of exercises (Crown 5) even if they have not progressed stepwise to that level yet.

  1. Don't re-use so many sentences between exercises, especially between crown levels.
8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Yanina912107

The biggest downside of the crowns system is that they make the learning process boring, boring, boring. There are only so many times you can type the same thing over and over again before you give up and quit.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LaurianaB
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Thank you all for the work put in to bring about this improvement!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Victor_Donjuan

I have one recommendation and one question. R: I really suggest that with the new system you should unlock the maximum level of 25. It seems that the new system gives a ton of exp points. I'm a new user and got right away the crown system on the Android app (22 days according to my streak and I'm already level 18). I don't think it will take much time to me to get level 25 in the next week, which seems different for users without the new system I think. Q: Why I have the crown system on my android phone but the old system in the web version? Is this a bug or is normal?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
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Yes, it seems that would be important to do. It might make older users happy to see they have somewhere to go level wise.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Izim_M
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Could you describe how much XP you gain in the Crown system? In the old system you'd get about 1 XP for a correctly answered question (if you did timed practice), how does that work now?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Victor_Donjuan

I wasn't referring to the timed practice though. In the old system you get 15xp each time you complete a NEW lesson (if you make no mistakes), however there were very few new lessons available. In the crown system, you get 50-80 new lessons per skill (though some exercises are repeated as someone above noted). Which means with all these new lessons available you also earn a lot of xp.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mereade
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I am looking forward to trying the crowns out, it looks like the new systems might be fixing some of the issues with Duolingo. But only if the levels 4 and 5 are really harder, if there is more practice involved. But I am curious, whether it will be possible to test out of the course more easily, for the advanced learners? I have a few courses open for languages I am already advanced in (some out of curiousity, or to know what to recommend my friends. one of the courses is my native language) and it takes ages to test out and get to either the end (so that I don't look like I don't know my native language) or to finally get to the interesting stuff.

So, is there a less time consuming testing out option than three or four group tests and then testing out of each skill individually? Or a fast way to test right into the level 4 or 5, even though noone was placed there just based on the results under the previous system?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/trilby16

Funny thing-- there really is no level 5. You finish level 4 and then you are at level 5 but there are no exercises to it. It's just, you finished level 4!

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Miss_Pasko

It is like a baby - we count the first year as 0 (zero), then when it reaches the first birthday, it turns 1 (one). So when one turns 50, you have actually finished 50 years.

And crowns is the same - one works through level 1 (showing purple and zero) and then receives the blue and number 1 at the end.

But centuries work the opposite - there was no Year Zero, so the first century ended at the end of Year 100, and the first day of the 21st century was 1 January 2001!

;-)

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
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When you start you a language, you should do a placement test. Hopefully that will help.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mereade
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Of course I knew of this obvious thing, I was asking because this miraculous solution doesn't solve what I am asking about at all:

1.the placement test still doesn't lead to the whole tree (I tried with my native language), so I am curious how it will deal with the levels. Will it put people even to levels 4 and 5? As was said in this thread, there are many learners who have very good knowledge of some chapters before starting and little of others and the placement test isn't sensitive enough to detect that.

2.It still doesn't solve the main issue: there is not test out of the end or at least of half the last bunch of skills. And other than that, testing out of skills individually takes a long time. I think the ideal would be an option to manually choose which skills I want to try to test out of.

3.testing out of stuff through whichever path, will it lead to any level or just the low ones?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ALLintolearning3
ALLintolearning3
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Sorry! There is no testing out during the crown system. Yes, I am disappointed with that also. You cannot test out of each skill set of lessons.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PurpleJane

I am frustrated with this too!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Klgregonis
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I'm anxiously tapping my fingers until I get the crowns. Not so much for the new way of encouraging my learning, I've been through a couple of iterations already, but for the more difficult sentences. I will miss the decay feature, since I use that to determine what I need to practice and find it quite helpful, but it seems like you're looking for a way to incorporate something similar, eventually. Love this program, hope Luis and the team can continue to keep it free.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Notknowy
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The topic was somehow tackled on by previous comments, but there were a little menus with tips for each of the skills. And I know that those are now accessed by the bulb button, but there are some which do not have them. It is most probably due to a lack of said tips, but still each lesson had boxes, which showed what new words were to be learnt in the lesson, it was quite a help to prepare for the lesson vocabulary beforehand. And since not only those skills which lacked tips had them, it's now quite a inconvenience for me. It would help if you made a mini-dictionairy at the end of each tips for a skill by extracting those words from the, now not available, boxes.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tiramisues
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I miss the same vocab list. To still access it I made my own classroom under https://schools.duolingo.com/ Once you made a classroom you can find the words for each lesson under "curriculum".

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Notknowy
Notknowy
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Nice, though it would probably be patched in the near future, so it's best to inform staff about inconvenience rather than be satisfied with temporal fixes.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/karolineczka...

Can I still test out of one skill somehow? That sometimes helps, eg. testing out of "Numbers" because I learnt them earlier...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LilliBeeley

My main issue with this update is that although they say you don’t loose progress through the update I have definitely lost progress and this is mainly because the layout of the levels has changed. This is annoying because although I like the idea of the crowns and I do believe that they are a good thing the fact that my app was just updated and I received no email to say my app was getting an update or any notice of this definitely feels like my usage of the app has been effected as I had not heard anything about the fact that the update was happening because it feels like this new update makes you loose lives more quickly which means you have to practice to gain them back but now the practice has no effect on your progress on the levels so it feels like a waste of time doing the practice when it is extremely necessary if you want to practice at all!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Machyc

I really loved the orange coloring of skill when I finnished one. After that, I was waiting when it go off orange coloring and makes me do "STRENGHTEN". Now I have to wait to skill level 5 and it is very unmotivating. There are so much lessons and practising that I cannot choose between them what should I pick and practice! My suggest: Give it back but with crowns! After finnish level 1 it should go orange and in some time it should go orange off and it should makes me STRENGHTEN. And with this STRENGHTEN i can reach to level 5. This would be very motivating for me. Please, consider it!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TrapperJohnG

I really enjoy using Duolingo, however... Two major criticisms with the new system: -I can find no way to regain health by reviewing former lessons. -Although I do my required number of lessons, I do not receive XP for them. I will finish a lesson to find that the XP meter has returned to zero. I have to keep buying Streak Freezes in order to preserve my long streak. Both of these are very frustrating and may cause me to ultimately quit using this app.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/XavierPool1

A display of the words learned in each lesson would be super helpful. I practice writing them and now I don't know where certain words are!? The system might only give you words that it thinks you "need" to practice but what if I want to practice certain words, its similar to pot luck now.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChrisBramh

I've just discovered that I've been migrated to Crowns. Even after reading the above explanation, I have no idea how to use it or where to start with the next lesson. That, combined with the endless repeats of the same ads (even after I use the options to flag them as "not interested" or "seen multiple times") has finally persuaded me to leave Duolingo after over 1000 days of usage. Congratulations Duolingo, you just lost a client and I will no longer suggest it as a usable tool for learning languages.

With that goodbye and good riddance!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kangaroolotty

where is the test out option? I have been using it to revise languages I learned extensively at school, and I simply don't need to plough through all the exercises for all modules, so making me do so will just make me abandon duolingo for that purpose. the more general issue is why start messing around with something that isn't broken.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mr.Luster

So this seams realy nice but for someone who started learnign japanese here befor 2 weeks and it is still on Hiragana this is kinda realy bad before I could easy repeat leason with characters that i still don't remember and now i need to go trough all of them just to come to get to those 2-3 i can't remember in that leason :(

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MasterYods
MasterYods
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I agree. We really need to be able to repeat the lesson with the Hiragana you just learnt, otherwise it just piles on and I can't remember anything.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Juan922528

What worries me about this post is that pointing out that you are aware of serious problems with the new system is not the same as actually addressing those problems. What we have right now is a very flawed and vastly inferior system to what had been in place. You can de-facto remove spaced repetition from Duolingo, but you cannot remove the parts of our brains that are wired to learn from spaced repetition, and you cannot insert something into our brains that will make us remember without needing spaced repetition. The crowns system is a rough idea, creating more problems and not solving any old ones in the process. It should be in testing, not rolled out to users. I will be uninstalling the app and simply using Anki from now on, as the app is no longer an effective use of time for me.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Spacegrrrl42

Thanks for the heads up on a different software. I got this Crowns nonsense today & it's super frustrating. Think I'm going to uninstall.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HayloHusky

"I can’t pick what lesson I want to do anymore. We want to give the right balance of choice and guidance, and we’re still tweaking that. So far, we haven’t been hearing complaints that content is too difficult; the feedback has been that difficulty is effortless and natural or that it’s too easy. Therefore, we aren’t concerned at this time that skills are advancing too quickly for learners."

This is the one thing I valued, and it's been taken away and it "isn't a concern"? The one thing I valued was being able to individually do sections of each lesson, rather than be forced to move on when I'd completed a part of it. I'm in no way a fast learner, nor experienced in the language I'm learning. And when you're new, taking it slow can be very beneficial in retaining memory... But it seems that since I can't go and practice individual words and skills in the form of parts of lessons, I'm forced to move at a faster, more complicated pace which is way out both my skill level and comfort level... Why not just give people a choice regardless of whether you think its "guidance"?

This is actually distressing me to the point of tears. I feel as if I can't move on now because of this crown business blocking my progress. :( All I want is to be able to go back and cement my learning before I move on to something new. But you've taken that away, and there appears to be no concern about that.

Please allow me to choose skills and lessons and go back to them once I'd completed them... That's all I ask.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Leastbest

I’ve stopped using Duolingo. The crowns make no sense to me. Soon I’ll be deleting the app. It was nice while it lasted. Thanks. It got me partially there.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KomaGawa

I am a big promoter of duolingo to my colleagues and students in Japan. I just wish I had found you guys when I was on fire to study Russian....now I am plodding along studying french for a trip to Africa this summer. I am actually a poor student at learning languages, and I don't particularly like doing this, but for some reason that is what I am spending a lot of my free time doing. I did feel a sense of accomplishment in the old system, So looking at my position in the new one, I am disoriented. I am not sure if I am still progressing or just treading water.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/chrichrichi
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Duolingo Team - pls read your own FAQ - beyond the first paragraph you only write what the new system cannot do any more and all you say: we understand you miss this, unfortunately this is not possible or we might bring some of it back or not.

The only positive thing you say: with this system you can introduce more difficult lessons for advanced users - guess what: I used this app for month and have an entire tree finished - now I do lessons I get much simpler tasks as this system does not reflect which words I am not good at - sometimes I get even total basics.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DanyDin
DanyDin
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just put back the good old version, please!!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dempsas

Okkay so I just got Crowns... I'm all for more content but I don't see how having me revisit German basics and pretty much everything above the final checkpoint is going to help me progress any more than the standard practice. I was extremely proud of my full gold german tree maintained by now a 500 day streak and you've taken that from me. :(

I'm the kind of user the more difficult content is aimed at but now I feel I have to go and get the rest of the dam crowns back up the tree now.... RIP gold tree... its been a good streak.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lisa454630

There’s nothing exciting about the crowns, it’s utter crap and worse that you don’t give people a choice! If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/John27805

Your FAQ for "I lost all of my progress!" says:-

"Don’t worry, you really didn’t. It may be surprising to find skills that were once gold are now colorful again, but all your lessons that were “completed” before are still completed.

This is not what I see in practice. There are lessons that were completed (even recently completed) and strengthened that are now showing as Level 0 Completed 0.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vliegs
vliegsPlus
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Like 99% of commenters around the Internet, I strongly dislike the new Crowns Feature. But DuoLingo's biggest implementation disaster was limiting the starting level to 3 when switching to Crowns. If there was more advanced content for all subjects it might be ok. There is not. For users, who have been studying a language for years, completed and maintained golden trees multiple times through previous DuoLingo "resets", having to click through, type out or listen to "I ............. am .............. a .............. man" hundreds of times to get beginner level subjects back up to 5 is ridiculous and hugely demotivating. It also introduces bad data into the system. While trying to get through these "lessons" as quickly possible, people are highly likely to make unforced errors. Leaving the Crowns at 3 doesn't reflect the user's DuoLingo progress in the language.

I don't like the Crowns Feature in languages I have less skill in, but in those at least the Crown Levels are a decent reflection of my progress. For languages I've been studying in DuoLingo for years, and now have been set back to 3 in basic subjects it is illogical and extremely frustrating. And as many have mentioned, will probably make many users with multi-year streaks give up on DuoLingo altogether.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nipredil

You really should put test out back... loads of us use duolingo to freshen up an old language. I used to know everything duolingo teaches in spanish. I started learning again here, because I tried reading harry potter in spanish and while I understood most, I was mixing up the tenses. So I definitely won't go through 10 lessons of the spanish "present perfect" and wouldn't have even started if I had to go from the beginning. Testing topics 1 by 1 was a nice option to be faster than those who study spanish as a new language. I don't even understand why would you take that option out. It was an option that doesn't even hurt those who don't want to use it, but hurts those who can be faster. So thanks for changing for this system, now I don't know how will I get back my knowledge of the use of spanish tenses. And special thanks that you made the change without a warning, in the middle of my daily practice. Kinda feels like if you gave me a puppy and come back to kill it two weeks later.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/M.King-Rex

WOW!
I get to do REDO Lesson after Lesson typing easy boring stuff like "I am a woman" and "I am a boy" because the new system of Crowns chose to take away all my golden skills and institute the Crown Level. So 80 skills that I have so far are now all 1's, 2's, or 3's. I can spend weeks and weeks redoing before I ever learn a new brand new skill! Just Fantastic! Not like I have a job or other responsibilities as well as study.
If you do not understand the foreign language of these comments - It is called Sarcasm!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/seeker24418

I have been using duolingo for 4 years now. We had our ups and downs, but lately I was feeling thrilled with the updates. They have finally added some new content to the french tree and I was doing the exercises eagerly waiting to see the new words and get my tree golden. It takes a really long time and a lot of repetition, but I was going with it. But this new update with crowns is just horrible and completely demotivational. I could not believe it happened! I have downloaded the previous version of the app to go back to the old system.I don't know how long that will last and if there will be any problems with the app without the updates. However, with this new crowns system I just don't see myself using the app. I will probably switch to other apps on Android if the creators will not at least allow the users an option to choose the system. Maybe this new system is good for new users but for people like me who have been using Duo for years it's just incredibly frustrating.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/esalesky
esalesky
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You say during testing people were "using the app more, sticking around on Duolingo longer, completing more lessons, typing in their learning language more, and doing harder exercises."

Most of those could be artifacts of the new system and not positive changes: people are practicing old lessons to get crowns and re-gild skills, which now takes more time, so they're on the app more but it's not productive time. I know this is true for me.

Skeptical, but looking forward to the blog post.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/WolkZayets
WolkZayets
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I really hate the new Crown system, for the reasons you have described.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ColinLaticuf

Add me to the list of people not happy with Crowns. I've been re-learning French for over two years. Now I have to go back and do fifty lessons of mind-numbing basics like "Je suis un homme" to fill in numbers on crown icons.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/blobfish201

I don't like the crowns. Just yesterday I was able to pick what I wanted to learn, but now I'm put right into practice, even though I don't know what I'm supposed to click. GG Duolingo. Welp... Bye.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ali.8all

Hello Duolingo Team,

With the new 5 tiered crown level system, would Duolingo consider having each crown level be a separate colored circle on the tree? Gray= Not started, Green=1 Crown.....,...,..,... Gold= 5 Crowns? This way it would be easier to quickly look at which skills were weaker, and then the "all-gold" tree would still be achievable once level 5 was reached for each skill.

I would love to see the work we do in "practice" (with the little barbell) have some type of positive effect on our crown levels. I like to use this feature as it directs me to what I need to practice. But I'd love to see it count towards leveling up a crown. Please consider the practice as a lesson, or portion of a lesson for each skill.

Thanks for reading and considering my suggestions!

Ali

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/nicpero

Not a fan of the new format. I had just worked my way through the tree before you changed it. I am finding the new exercises incredibly repetitive. REALLY. IT. IS. NOT. NECESSARY. TO. ASK. THE. EXACT. SAME. QUESTIONS. OVER. AND. OVER. AND. OVER. AGAIN!!! What a waste of time!!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HannahR313

I had crowns on my phone since February, and used that before switching to the site. I HATED constantly answer the same question as, surprise, it didn't teach me anything! It would be fine if it were a complicated sentence, but not sure what saying "oil and water" over and over is going to do for me!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/1Talmidah

Sorry if someone else has already asked/commented about this - I haven't scrolled through all 900 comments, but what I have scrolled through seems to mainly be about the fluency meter, which I have never seen in the language I'm studying.

Anyway, what I'm finding troublesome is the fact that we're supposed to be able to go "deeper" into a particular unit if we want, but I went through 12 lessons (or whatever they're called) to move from level 3 to level 4 and then through another 10 lessons (out of 20) and haven't learned anything new at all! It's all just the same few extremely simple sentences, with the same few words I learned before the crowns. How much further do I have to go before it gets deeper? Or do I misunderstand what "deeper" means??

Perhaps, what you've seen as people sticking around longer and doing more lessons isn't because they like the crowns so much and are benefitting from it, but because they keep hoping that "maybe after this I'll finally get to something new"...but they don't. It's definitely much easier and faster to get through 50-100 xp "wading" through busy work than it is to complete a regular practice session or new lesson.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/vivifie2

Exactly. I keep hoping something new will appear. I've tried skipping around the tree. I've tried going deeper into a segment. If there really is something new at the end of all this it would take the patience of a saint to get to it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ALLintolearning3
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I believe on the easy lessons that it is the way the sentence is presented that gets more “Difficult”. Boy, a boy, the boy, a boy and a girl, a boy and a girl eat, SO one word to phrases, to sentences. Pictures with words, Multiple choice or tiles, to type it yourself, listen to new language and type in that language..... All things we already had, but now the types of learning are given from easiest to hardest rather than completely randomly. Later there may be some new vocabulary.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/1Talmidah

Thanks for the insight - I hope you're right.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JamesPeppersalt

I don't think taking away the ability to click on a lesson and see what will be covered in it was a wise choice. They gave a lot of important information to help people grasp the content. Whenever I studied Swahili I would read the words I'd be learning and the description of the lesson, and without that, I feel less prepared going into lessons.

That being said, I didn't like that we can't test out of lessons anymore; I take this in conjunction with my Spanish and French classes/lessons, and it's tedious to have to completely cover lessons on something I already know. If I want to practice it, I will practice it. I understand that it's meant to reinforce the content, but I'm not a child who needs to be reminded to eat my vegetables (or in this case, study my Spanish). It feels as if we're not trusted to be able to complete lessons on our own, and it is frustrating to have this amount of control taken away from us, especially since we cannot opt out of the Crowns system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Leastbest

Horrible. I am a man over and over. I know apple. Over and over.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Petrushak

I realy miss the possibility to re-visit the sublessons. As if there is a lesson which originally had, let's say - 9 sublessons (verbs etc.) I would do this lesson for maybe a week. I would learn a new sublessons a day and revisit the one I've done the previous day + do some general revision. The next day, I will write down on a paper the words I still haven't remembered, ad some examples etc. Slow and steady as I am unable to memorise a big amount of words from the whole lesson in one go. Now that I don't have the option to revisit what I've done yesterday, it sucks. If it takes me a week to get back to a word I've "learned", I am never going to learn it. Not being able to pick the particular lesson is not about how difficult it is (as was explained in FAQ, that answer was completely off). It's about being able to choose your own way, your own pace of learning and it gave you an opportunity to re-visit things you've forgotten. This step took away the learners ability to decide for themselve, now they just have to follow the robot. If this feature stays "switched off" permanently, Duolingo would probably stop being the right tool for me very soon, which I feel very sorry about as I am a long-time user. It's not that interactive and playfull, but good old text book doesn't hide the previous lessons away from me...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hanna958948

I find duolingo now less stimulating: 20 times "la donna beve l'acqua" is, even if you are a beginner, not very challenging. I was at level 25 of Italian, but really, I got bored of it now Please give me back the old Duolingo......

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BobbySweetkitty

Where is the official response to all this? And why do you completely swap out a functional system that people have been relying on for years with staments like, “this is one of our biggest criticisms” of the new system we’re forcing you into. What’s the point of putting out a flawed system that demoralizes a massive portion of your user base? And what’s the point of all this radio silence ? People are upset here. Make an official response already.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Miss_Pasko

I notice a fair few comments by users who have no streak flame - indicating they have left the site. I have been paying out lingots and likes to as many of the messages on this discussion thread as I can to show my support - time I should be spending doing lessons, of course.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MarkBaker7
MarkBaker7
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OK, I read over the FAQs, but I still think this was a bad decision Duolingo. It seems that what you forgot in making the change was how people motivate themselves to learn. They need to feel they are accomplishing something along the way, and by removing the gold, you took that away. It is also ridiculous to have so many exercises for the most basic skills. Why would an experienced language user want to go back and practice "I am a girl" 20 more times? What is to be learned from doing that? And for my children, you removed their few completed accomplishments, making them feel like they have to start all over again. Sorry, but it was bad decision, which has only encouraged me to try other language software (I currently have a 498 streak with duolingo, but I may not even bother with getting to 500 now). Just a terrible decision. Maybe you all need a serious re-think?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TomHarte
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Could be worse: Duolingo's grossly incompetent roll-out of crowns has had two effects on my account:

1) all recollection of completed lessons has vanished — and I had completed everything for my favourite language — though the entire lesson list remains open to me, I've apparently completed zero of them;

2) practice no longer works. Or, rather, it shows me a bunch of questions, I answer, it tells me I got 10 points. It then immediately forgets. I had an almost 900-day streak. I now have a zero day streak because the server simply declined to record any of my practices for a week or more, before I figured out what was going on.

That they have paying customers nowadays but still apparently can't handle even the most trivial of database migrations doesn't bode well.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/territech
territech
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Tom, it must be incredibly demoralizing to lose a 900-day streak due to a technical problem. My sincere condolences.

I did not lose my streak during the transition, and the practice button at the bottom of the page clearly updates (and retains) my XP. There must be a problem with your particular account. By any chance did you change time zones, or did your WIFI change time zones? If you finished after midnight in your original time zone where you first created your account, that might cause your work to not count for that day and restart your streak. Also, to avoid losing a streak due to Internet issues, I always keep a streak freeze in effect.

Maybe they can help you if you report a technical problem here: https://support.duolingo.com/hc/en-us/articles/204728264-How-do-I-report-a-bug

I sure wish you better luck next time.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ziolkowski420
ziolkowski420
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Well, I bought a freeze recently. On my mobile. Didn't work. Somehow the system didn't equip me.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tar2014
tar2014
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Repeating an exercise as many times as i like should be possible like before. This is essential.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BlakeCH77
BlakeCH77
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Well, I really can't use DuoLingo any more...I was going through the languages I know somewhat, finding places where I'm weak and strengthening those areas. It was working really well. Now I can't make further progress through the tree unless I perform endless repetitions of basic material that I already know. I don't have time to do this, and I can no longer test out of familiar material. The new system may be great if you are just beginning a language, but as many, many people have pointed out, it is deadly if you already have some skill. I'll revisit DuoLingo later and see if you guys have worked out a system that's useful for everyone.

I might still use it for Chinese -- that was the language I was coming in on the ground floor.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/juldee
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"[...] learners using the app more, sticking around on Duolingo longer, completing more lessons, [...]"

maybe that's because they were trying to get back to their learning level by doing a lot of the boring basic repetitions which the crown system seems to force?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KellyShand
KellyShand
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exactly!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/juldee
juldee
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yep. since the crowns i spent more time while learning less.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MaxineSamphire

Sorry, but I hate this new system. I'm at level 20 in Spanish, I have invested in duolingo plus, and I was perfectly satisfied with the way things were working--now I don't know where I am in my lessons, and I don't seem to get anywhere. I am so disappointed.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ResonantFlux

The old system allowed users both the choice, but also feedback of what lessons are 'fresh', and recently practiced. You keep saying how you've given users more choice, but there's no feedback, the number on the crown solves a 'problem' you introduced, and just causes another.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Iv4etooo

This "crowns" thing is annoying. Making me redo simple exercises 100 times only demotivates me. The number of crowns means completely nothing to me. I was so motivated lately to make the tree all golden and now I think I want more to leave the app and do something else. Trying to make a gold skill make me angry and nervous now. Also, it would be nice to see some percentage as it was before, no matter how accurate. I feel like what I was gained has all gone.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/IverNoir
IverNoir
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Where is that giant thread "PLEASE give us the option to opt-out of crowns" that was upvoted like 400 times? It was here yesterday and now I can't seem to find it anywhere at all. Deleted by "bosses" maybe? I'm eagerly waiting for the answer of mentioned "bosses" about changes to this heretic Crown system though, my subscription - as my friends' - depends on it...

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
Corinnebelle
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In the old system, strengthen skills will golden your tree as you work through it. You can level up with it too. I don't understand why you can't when you can earn XP with it unless that changes. The new system doesn't do that tho?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zekecoma

Probably because they didn't think it through when coming up with the new system.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ALLintolearning3
ALLintolearning3
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Crown levels are different from user xp levels. You can go through the tree and bring every skill up to level 1. Then you go through the tree and bring every skill up to level 2. There are 5 Crown levels. When you complete level 5, then you can have your timed practice back and your skills will all be gold. Unfortunately, you must do each skill so very many times so it is much more than doing the tree 5 times. I bet we were already doing those skills at least as many times over the years, but looking at all those ungilded skills many feel overwhelmed.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/szabeszg

"Crown level" is just a dead simple counter, counting how many times one has gone through the very same "skill". Now they want us to re-do each skill so many times just to get back the timed practice feature that the whole thing has become pointless and boring. Also, spaced repetition is basically gone. They have not yet removed it but you either have to use and old app version on Android/iOS or check your progress here: https://duolingo.eu/[yourusername]/progress/ This situation is ridiculous! Shame on you Duolingo!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lisa454630

Shame indeed! Ultimately, it’s a gimmick to make you spend money to progress further. It’s an absolute disgrace! I honestly really enjoyed learning as I pleased, to go back over the lessons I needed to to make sure I memorised enough to feel confident enough to progress further. I’m so annoyed that freedom was a given then it was taken in an instant with no warning. What the ❤❤❤❤!?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/speising
speising
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i just worked on spanish subjunctive past skill, completing level 3 and doing some lessions of level 4. between the 8 lessions i completed, there were 76 distinct sentences (but in both directions, so really only 38), and that despite having 20 sentences per lession. and i didn't notice any change from lvl 3 to 4.

so, those "lessions" are really more like practice sessions, without adding anything more challenging, and without regard to my proven skills, like the old practice was at least supposed to work.

instead of adding ever more lessions of the same old stuff in new levels, how about having fewer lessions but with actual new stuff? ideally combined with a practice button which draws from all previous levels and respects my stengths and weaknesses.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Corinnebelle
Corinnebelle
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Those are lessons, not lessions.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/otsogutxi
otsogutxi
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Overall, I think the crowns system will definitely be more motivating than the strengthening system, and it seems to offer something for every learner, but one thing I need to have is the ability to see what words are in each lesson.

When I make Memrise courses, I need to know what words are in each skill, so I know I have covered every word. I'd never use the Duolingo Tinycards courses, as they don't even have half the words.

(Let's hope Wayback Machine works for Duolingo)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/pentaan
pentaan
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https://support.duolingo.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002602006-What-can-I-do-with-Duolingo-for-Schools-

Explore Course: Enter your classroom and select “Curriculum” on the sidebar on the left. You will be able to explore lists of words .....

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/otsogutxi
otsogutxi
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Good to know, but I still wish there was a solution for non-classroom learners too. I suppose the feature is still in its early stage so we'll have to wait and see.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

You can get at the word lists for the lessons by clicking on the skills here: https://duolingo.eu/otsogutxi/progress/

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sam942504

Make a way that people can get rid of the update or watch Duo plummet like snapchat did with terrible updates. Strength bars worked and if it isn't broke don't fix it

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Terry614373
Terry614373Plus
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I want the last software version back. Crowns material is too too boring. It’s forcing me to go over really basic stuff I already know. It has become a waste of my time.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Shirlgirl007
Shirlgirl007
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I was not finished my German tree, but now I cannot continue, as there is a message that says I met reach level 1 in all skills until I can open up a new unit. This is not functioning correctly, since all my other units are already 2,3, and 4.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Charles215113

I'm glad you don't mind negative comments, cause I'm about to leave you some.

Twice during the course of learning with you, the tree has been upgraded, and twice I've lost all the gold skills - I know you say you haven't removed them, but that's not how it looks from here.

Do you know, do you have any idea how demoralising that is? To see all that work vanish, that visual effort gone, because you can't leave well alone?

How about, instead of fiddling and making the site look flashy, you take your redesign, bin it, and simply let us learn without your interference?

I get much more motivation from seeing that lesson gold, than from seeing a farting little crown with a number in it which means nothing to me.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dbUlkK
dbUlkK
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GET RID OF IT PLEASE

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hellpitt

guys I really dislike this system... it takes control out of my learning. I am seriously considering dropping out guys.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Margolf

I just got crowns-- certainly has started my day off on a downer--- went from a golden tree to reset to lvl 2 on everything -- even the very first lesson-- and it is crystal clear that no effort was made to avoid repetition-- even the very first lesson on the tree I am being forced to completely repeat - not a single thing is skipped- talk about an unnecessary waste of time. it would be one thing to have extra/new lessons at each level- but that is clearly not the case- this resets to complete restart.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Andrea907531

I always did each new lesson twice in a short distance of time before I continued. No I have to wait until I finished a whole circle of lessons. That might take nine days before I can repeat the first lesson of a circle. That's a to long distance of time and to much input. My consequence will be to write down each new lesson in an exercise book, to repeat the new lessons from it and I will start a LEO "Vokabeltrainer".

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StephenBla12

The problem with getting rid of the option to test out is that you introduced Crowns right after you switched in a new French. Losing progress with the new French was annoying, but not critical because I could just test out of the stuff I already knew. But now I can't. I have a bunch of stuff that's boring: I already know it, and I can't just test out of it.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SanDigital
SanDigital
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I feel you here. I just looked at my new doubly revised French tree. It had me doing things like OUI and NON! I've known that for 30+ years... Duolingo has replaced effective practice and testing with tedium

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CateDS
CateDS
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I would have just liked them to tell us that the new content was coming! I have been submitting tickets for a week asking about it, with no response!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnirbanDut3

It is good to see that in depth practice is possible for each skill. However, I found that redoing a lesson within a skill is not possible anymore! I miss that redoing very much. Also my request to the Duolingo team to add back the verb conjugation table if possible that was present earlier (conjugation table used to appear just by hovering the cursor over a verb). Thanks.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Andrew753264

I really wish that the testing out option would still be available because I already practice french outside of Duolingo (at school). So if I can't advance in Duolingo without having to repeat all the stuff I've already learned, I'm not learning anything. And if I'm not learning anything, then this is useless

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
Heike333145Plus
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Sorry, I don't understand: You can advance without repeating old skills. In my Norwegian tree, there are some skills that previously were golden and that now are on different levels. And I can still choose to do the new lessons that I hadn't touched before the update.

And in French, where my tree was complete, I can do any skills I want.

Am I misunderstanding something?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GScottOliver
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2018/04/10 Yes. The concept of gamification of learning is wonderful. but the problem is that if it's a game, there must be a way of "winning". Previously, one could "win" by completing the tree, turning all the skills gold, and then keeping them that way with practice. And DL would occasionally add new sentences, or at least show you some that you hadn't seen before.

Now, from what I read here, on some of the early skills the new levels don't give you new words and phrases to learn, but you still have to plod through the given number of lessons to get to the next level, and eventually "win" at that skill. That makes it so the game is no fun anymore. That's why we need a "testing out" option.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/whukriede
whukriede
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I think I'm finally fed up with this brain dead company. Good bye, Duo, it really is enough now.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Enchilada5
Enchilada5
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It is good with a change, although I prefer the old version where you could see immediately what you need to practice on and the progress of each lessons.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/trilby16

So... it's not a good change.

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Olivia-R-W
Olivia-R-W
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My trees (9 all together- I'm "double-learning" some) all got switched to the Crown system today, and, while it is still my first day, I don't really like it. Being the overachiever that I am, earned 50xp so far today just trying to bring Basics One in a language I'm (supposedly) 55% fluent in and I want to bring everything up to gold- am I correct in saying that once it is gold, it won't go back or weaken like it used to?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KingGeorgeNE

It appears after changing the English to French skill tree around completely, Duolingo did not take any of the negative feedback seriously. This additional change, which seems to have negatively affected the "strengthen skills", was another bad decision. Good luck keeping people!

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lunanya
Lunanya
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This new system might not be bad but looking through the FAQ there seem to be a lot of issues to fix or tweak. I thought users would always have the chance to say no to an upgrade until things got improved, but I was just forced to switch to the new system. In my opinion, you shouldn't force people to use a new system that has so many issues. Let people have the choice to say no and switch everyone once things are improved. I'm pretty unhappy about how this was forced now.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TimK77777
TimK77777
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Under the old system, practicing advanced (further down the tree) skills would affect less advanced ones so that sometimes more than one skill would get strengthened at the same time (up to four in my experience). Is this going to work under the new system? If not, it's a significant loss because one would need to go through all skills all over again, including now really boring early ones.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnaSmith507855

My program has just been changed to crowns, and my first impression is WTF? Sorry. I was rated at level 3 on basics, so I tried it out and went through all 9 lessons, and it was like I was a brand new beginner. Talk about remedial. Way below my levels. I really hated it before if I made a typo and had to have that word 16 times over and over again in a lesson, now it's even worse. Hope I find some way to move up much faster, I can't even imagine having to go through this whole tree for months just to get back to a place where I feel like I am moving forward again. Disappointed.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Japan_is_Perfect

The new "Crown" update makes Duolingo too slow. It is also confusing and is not helping me in any way so far. I strongly dislike the "Crown" update and I hope it is possible to go back to the original. Basically, it is drilling a bunch of words into your head and hoping you remember them. I would love to see a test at the end of the tree to see if you took it seriously.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JoshuaLind17

I just got Crowns tonight, and it was definitely a jarring change. Your "mega post" already addresses my two biggest concerns, but I'm posting to make my voice heard and hopefully up-vote the features to be a priority.

I need spaced repetition and the list of vocabulary.

I want to get better and learn new skills, but I do so slowly. I like to practice the older skills more to make sure I don't forget the words from earlier lessons (I think Crowns will work well for this). The problem is that without the degrading progress bars I don't have a good idea of what skills I should review.

The other problem is the lack of individual lessons with the list of vocabulary. There are a few things that I know I am struggling with. So, I would specifically redo those lessons regularly to try and get better at it. I can't do that anymore. I just have to pick the right "skill" and then hope that the lesson actually includes the words I want to work on.

Crowns seems to have more good than bad, but there are some quality-of-life options that need to come back ASAP.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TasnimSidd1

I don't like this new system at all. I no longer know how many lessons there are in each skill level (oh! know they are known as "crowns"). I can no longer choose which lessons to practice. I get it that team Duolingo want the courses to look and feel all secretive and mysterious but it not working, well at least not for me. Instead of this "Crown" stuff they could have worked on improving the quality of other newer courses like Hebrew where several audio files are missing. Now that would have helped learning a new language a lot. Again, when I practice a lesson, I no longer have the