Time warp with crowns
Yes its 5/11/16 The very first day I started using Duolingo. Here I am typing L uomo, la donna, etc etc yawn yawn. I estimate it is going to take around 30 sessions to get to 5 crowns from the 2 that everything diminished to. Oh my god, what just happened, Run out of health ? how can this be, I have finished the whole course with an almost fully golden tree.. Due to 5 silly typos ( i should pay more attention ) im halted from using the app. Ah, now I get the picture, been expecting something like this for ages. Even if you have finished the tree and dont need health, DL have constructed a way to encourage you to pay money to use the app. Alternatively dont make any mistakes, ever. Ah, not a problem, just start another subject .......Nope, you got no health, “So I cant study at all now” ? ( “ yes if you pay some money” ) In short, to the ios app I say “Grazie Prego Ciao”
I too have been 'rewarded' with crowns today. After having an all-gold tree ever since finishing it almost two years ago it seems somewhat cruel to put me on level 2 out of 5 for Basics 1 and 2 - how many times must I write "I am a woman, she is a girl"???
I was determined to give duolingo the benefit of the doubt, so I went to the "Formal You" lesson. I was on level 3, and only three lessons away from level 4.. Great!!
Erm No! Each lesson had exactly the same sentences repeated ad infinitum, I translated phrases like "Salve", "Salve Dottore", "La preghiamo di entrare" etc at least 8 times.
Eventually I reached level 4 and was anticipating the much heralded advanced content. Guess what - the first lesson was full of exactly the same phrases again :/
Colour me unimpressed, so I suppose I will either come to terms with it or give up with duolingo completely.
I know what you mean about the time warp, Muss. I got the new Crown system yesterday, as well. I decided to try it out, so I went to the first unit of the reverse Italian tree, and started doing the lessons on my computer.
I wanted to see what it would be like getting to level 5. To get there I went though more than 25 lessons of repeating I am a man, he is a boy, io sono una donna, lei è una ragazza, etc.
There was no increasing difficulty. I can type sentences like that very quickly on my computer keyboard. However on many of the exercises I had to use my mouse to select each word, which was much slower.
In the IOS app I decided to practice something that I really want and need to practice, one of the subjunctive tenses. I got through a few lessons, making an error from time to time, some of them just mistakes in typing. Typing is much more clumsy for me when I use my tablet.
When I lost any health, I did some of the accepted lessons to refresh Health, but on one lesson I missed the first four questions before getting one correct. When I ran out of health a few questions later, I was offered a chance to keep going for 450 gems. If I am out of gems, normally I can go to the gem store and get a refill of the five Health units for 350 gems, but here I had an offer to avoid having to start those exercises over for only 100 more gems than usual.... a chance to avoid doing the very exercises I want and need to do again, so that I can learn what the creators of the course intended for me to learn.
I’m skeptical about the increasing difficulty in the new Crown system for another reason as well. I’m not sure how many courses Duolingo offers currently, but according to Wikipedia, there were 68 different courses offered on here, in November, 2016.
There has just been a new major update to the French from English course, and in the announcement the developers were congratulated for their many months of hard work preparing the update.
Both Spanish courses, Spa-Eng and Eng-Spa have had major updates recently, requiring months of work from the developers.
The Irish team has put in many months of hard work on a new update, which many of us are eager to be released.
Where is all this new advanced material coming from for the new crown system in 100 percent of the courses offered here on duolingo?…. these courses are built by volunteers, passionate people who have busy lives, but work hard so that we can learn what they teach us.
The new advanced content doesn’t just appear… who’s writing and creating all this new advanced content?
I also was disappointed with the introduction to the PC version of the exercises where you have to select the words on the little tiles in the correct order with the mouse. The good news is that I discovered by accident that there is an option at the bottom of the screen to type your answers instead of having to select the words with the mouse. Once you have selected that option it seems to apply everywhere until you change it back, so at least that problem has gone away! I could never have faced all the new levels and skills if I had to plod through selecting words with the mouse.
I never expected so much new content (because of the reasons you mentioned), but more an increasing level of difficulty due to more free text translations into the foreign language and less multiple choice tasks. But as of you I don't really see this being implemented. There is still hope, anyway....
Perhaps it has to do with the language course in particular, since some have much less content than others to begin with. I haven't run against any in Italian or Japanese, but in courses like Norwegian and Dutch there is likely more (unfortunately, I'm not far enough down those trees to say, and the first third or half of any tree will probably have very few sentences we haven't already seen up to now). Which courses/skills have you been seeing new content in?
I see how my comment could have been unclear :) I was talking about clearly seeing more translation into the target language. I do see that. It's too bad not everybody seems to be. As to your question, it seemed to me I saw new-to-me sentences in a Catalan object pronouns skill. I think it's one of the hardest skills in the tree, so it makes sense to me that more of the sentences would have exceeded the miss-rate threshold before.
Ah, got it! And by new I did mean hitherto-fore unseen (mainly target-language writing) sentences rather than newly added ones, since that was what the official post seem to indicate the "new" material largely consisted of. That is interesting about Catalan, and does make sense. There are probably a few longer sentences here and there as well, as they are also likely to have had a higher miss-rate previously. Thanks for the clarification!
Just don't practice the first lessons over and over. You don't have to care about the crown levels. If you do one lesson at a time and then take another skill, the levels will also slowly rise. Actually level five is supposed to be much more than just having a skill golden in the old version.
The health thing seems to be a problem, I think there is just a fraction of the iOS users "exposed" to this test. Did you try using the website istead?
Yes, ive been using the web also. I dont really have any interest in the taggs ons, Numbers, gems, followers, flags, fluency ..... Whats important to me is learning a language at my own pace in a manner that suits me and the time I have available to study. I can see the benefits of re doing older lessons and is the reason why I went right back to the beginning, im sure there will be things I missed or didnt fully understand. Five silly little mistskes or incorrect answers result in no further study on the app. If they get rid of Health, I will shut up and be happy to attain 5 crowns in every subject because I will know that im ultimately hammering Italian into my head.
Sadly thats true. But you wont loose your hard earned Italian knowledge. Because im sad ive done a small calculation to determine how many practices are required for a full 5 crown tree. From 2 crowns you have to do 5 for 3, 9 for 4 and 15 for 5. Multiplied by 66 sections, approx 1800 repetitions, ( 18000xp ? ) I wont be bothering with the first 66% of the tree, my week points are mainly contained within the past, future, and conditional ( all variables ) so in some respects these crown things are good, but only on the web. Maybe its me, but I object to having to pay for an advertised as free learning platform. What DL have done is no different to how drug dealers work. “ Here are some free drugs” “now your hooked, you gotta pay” As I mentioned somewhere else, I knew this was going to happen, and is why I quit last year. Im sure we will all survive, and maybe even benefit but only by using a different strategy.
In another post I've seen that the multiplication scheme is 1+1+2+3+5 times the old number of lessons for the first, second etc. crown, so you have to do 12 times as many lessons as if you just went straight through the tree once. We have 380 lessons (in 67 skills) (if I counted them correctly), so from level two to level 5 you would need 380 x (2+3+5) x 10xp=38000xp. It's a bit of work....
Yes, level five is quite a lot of work, I just tried it with one or two skills so far to see how it behaves. At least those two skills gave me basically no new questions and no significant increase in "home" to foreign language translation, but they also stayed golden since I reached level five....
Currently I'm working on getting the last two remaining skills to level 2, then I'll start to slowly bring them to three, jumping through the tree. I'm using also the skill strength userscript to determine which skill to practice next, based on the percentage of old words.
Muss, have you just 'gained' the crowns? It has not happened to me yet. I know what I need to work at, and I have all the course written out, so I could just be studious and revise from my notes. But, thus far, Duolingo has been a pleasure to use, so if that has been spoiled I will be very disappointed.
Hi Helen, Yes im crowned. Which I actually dont mind to be honest. What has xxxxxxxx me off is the fact that we can no longer rely on not needing Health. Before we could just repeat an older lesson, which I also didnt mind, good practice. But now Health applies to everything. One slight typo such as your finger slipped to S instead of A etc, Bang, one life gone, Do this or similar 5 times and your time on the app is over. Luckily for me, I also have some of the course in hand written notes, and I have been using the web for ages ( which also has crowns now ) so this will be my place from now on. Imao, DL was always going to end up here, because nothing can. be free on the Internet, somewhere it cost somebody money for web space, wages, etc etc. Now it seems the only way to enjoy the app is get every answer correct first time, ( in which case you are already fluent and dont need to study ) or buy gems to get your health back. Not quight as free as advertised. Anyway, I have been trying other methods of learning for a while now so its not a total disaster. My self education isnt going to stop but Im pretty sure DL wont be my first choice like it once was.
Here shows you need 15 practices for your fifth crown
That's true. Basics-1 contained originally 3 lessons, so the last step is 3x5=15 lessons/units/practices. Other skills contain up to ten lessons, so from level 4 to 5 you need 50 lessons there....
From 2 to 3 you need 2x3=6 lessons, from 3 to 4 you need 3x3=9 lessons. That matches your numbers in the other post except from the 5, but I just checked in my tree, it's 6 from level 2 to 3. But this is just Basics-1, you can see that the same transition takes 10 lessons for Basics-2, so this is 5x2. One of the biggest skills is Infinitives-1, it takes 20 lessons from 2 to 3, so it was 10 lessons in the old system and 10x(1+1+2+3+5)=120 lessons to become golden now o.O
Basics 2 Just did two sessions out of curiosity. 10+15, Just need to do another 25 for my five crowns ( which isnt going to happen ) However, very interesting and probably quight significant, Nel, Al, Gli, Le, I uomini, were all presented. Did these not first appear in Plurals and preposition ? Can I assume that I have contributed towards these two latter topics ? Just a thought.
It took me 15 months to complete the first time. So that calculates to over 12 years before I would finish again with everything at full crowns. I said Would, because I wont be attempting it. In that time again Im planning on being reasonably fluent and DL will be just a distant memory.
But you did repetitions in the meantime? So it would not be a factor of twelve, but maybe just three, depending on your ratio a new lessons to repetitions....
Anyway, neither I am keen on getting them all to level five, I just keep practicing my oldest and weakest skills for how much time I'm willing to spend per day. I don't think that we'll profit so much once we passed level two.
I have had my coronation tonight. I enjoyed achieving my totally golden tree, and the little owl wearing his flag as a scarf. I no longer aim to stay golden, I shall revise what I think I should. It may be more useful to drum those verb tenses into my brain by constant repetition, but it looks like a lot of work for not much gain in the early lessons.
I think its an experiment only some of us have to suffer. We start with 5 “ lives” and loose one with each incorrect answer. When all five have been lost, effectively the app goes to sleep for hours, unless you buy some more, with either lots of gems or, yes you guessed it, Money. “ Money” “ learn a language for free” ??
A bad idea that fortunately is history for most of us, except of course for those sometime bought it.
with every mistake you lose 1/5 bars of energy, you can refill it answering 20 old questions or buying the lot with gems (blue, are history too) or with cash.
A boring killing way for users... Do you see any pattern? I do, but i m giving it a chance, once you get all golden and level 25, units remain golden for long time so you have nothing to do, it happened to me, and 25 is not so much for russian, for me, not enought for a basic level. Crowns, at first view solved that.
I don't have "health." I think the "crown" option is a breath of fresh air! I'm having fun achieving new levels. I finished my Italian and French trees a long time ago. I feel like the "crowns" are helping me start all over learning both languages! Some lingots for you!
New Update Everyone. I thought it a little strange that during increasing the crowns for basics 1 (Italian) I was seeing words from later modules. (plurals, foods, preposition) During my attempt to get Past Imperfect from 2 to 3 crowns I was presented with a phrase that included Pensassi. At first it passed me by because I just saw Pens which is what I needed for "thought" in the phrase. Hold on a minute...... "Pensassi"..... Past imperfect ?? Ahh, Im heading towards 3 crowns, Lessons start to get harder, Now I see how this works. They are using words etc from lessons further up the tree (in this case about 24 places) that you have done previously, to increase the difficulty of the module you are working in/on. So effectively I have been increasing the crown level of Past Imperfect and also revising The subjunctive Imperfect simultaneously. Maybe this isn't all bad, and sorry for bringing good news while we are all in Rant mode. (still hate health though)
Ciao Muss, I have not had that experience at all. The first half of my tree has all been set at level 3, apart from basics 1 and 2, and food at level 2. So, I worked through those to attain level 3s. Not one new word or phrase, it all just went on and on. They could at least have introduced me to the crab that crawled into the first food lesson of the reverse tree.
The second half of my tree is all set at level 2, but I knew I had work to do there. My aim is to plod towards level 3 up the tree. I know I should be more mature and self motivated and not need a little owl in a scarf to spur me on, but sometimes a success along the way helps a lot. As did the Prosecco to celebrate it.
I wonder what the newer learners will aim for. A golden tree all at 5 seems somewhat out of reach. However, I suspect that the increased repetition will help me with the harder sections. Pros and cons for me, but I am so glad I finished my tree under the previous system.
I look forward to meeting the new content.
You have been lucky Helen, all my tree went to two crowns so thats a hell of a lot of repetition you dont have to do. I am actually praying to god that I made myself do the last 15 modules within a week, a month or so ago. I too am looking forwards to new material, but I think it will be outside of DL now. Im a firm believer that repetition is good for learning, but so is focus, For me, the amount of repetition is rediculous for one study session, which forces me to move to another module, at which point focus on one particular topic is lost. So I really dont know what to do now other than look for a technique that works for me. It used to be so easy only 24 hours ago, now its a bit of a mare.
If it's an unfamiliar sentence in a skill that you've done a lot, it could be one that got counted as "too tough" before so wasn't presented to users much or at all. I think one of the hopes with the new system is that contributors will add more more difficult sentences since they won't just get "frozen away" when people have trouble with them, as has happened in the past.