New "Crown Level" - how's it going?
I've just updated my Duolingo German to English to the "Crown Level" version. Have others done this? Is it a beta test version? How are you finding it? My 70% fluency rating has vanished, so don't know what's happening there. Anyway, thought I'd get the discussion started...
It's not going well. I don't get to choose which part of a module I want to revise. For reminding myself of a single word that I learned in the morning, I have to do an entire module in the night.
Where do I go to get an explanation of this new system? It just appeared, and I don't get it at all. I was at 71% fluency, level 25, and now I am having to re-do everything? What's up?
I didn't mean to say I don't like it, only that I don't yet understand it. I relish the chance to learn more and become more fluent, I just don't understand quite how this works. Do we all just start over and build up from the first basics again? If there was ever an explanation posted, I sure never saw it!
I've been reading lots of discussions - good and bad, leading up to the switch. Now that I have the crown system I can decide for myself. So far, I'm terribly disappointed.
I loved the old system. That makes it hard to change. Many of the things I liked are now gone. It almost makes me laugh because a few days ago I was defending how great the site was to a new user. He/she likely had the crown version and my response would be different today.
What I value the most are people like YOU on the discussion board - asking and answering questions and keeping me motivated. I value the contributors to the lessons and the great moderators. I'm giving it a bit of time to see if I'm just reacting negatively to change.
EL5tEL, maybe give it a couple weeks or so and then make a more informed opinion on the new system. Bad reactions to change is a thing and there's nothing wrong with that... some people have already posted the "I hated crowns at first but now I love it" thing.
If Duolingo was a game (which in part can be considered so) I would say that they changed the rules but ultimately the knowledge you acquire is basically the same or even better.
So, don't be discouraged... perhaps an adjustment period is all you need.
And hey, the crap fluency meter is gone after all. :)
Thanks Nuno. I agree that I need to give it more time and I hope that after a few weeks, I'll find things to love.
I already see lots of room for improvement with this system and I hope that Duolingo staff is reading posts and thinking of what Crowns 2.0 will look like. I did get an email about the crown system right when it switched over- so maybe that is a sign that they are reading the comments, as many of the early users who were switched received no notification.
Yes, and big woo hoo - that fluency meter is gone (and soon all of the discussion threads about it).
I like it and dislike it. It definitely will need a "remember to practice this section" reminder on it. Kind of like how Golden skills would lose their gilding over time. Other than that, I like the crowns, but I think it's going to work better for those starting their trees than those who had already worked through them.
Anyone who achieves a gold tree under the new system is going to be the world's undisputed foremost expert in saying "bread" and "water".
I can foresee a time when I might feel differently about it, but right now I'm just crushed that I've lost everything. I'm going to have to probably work for years to get back to where I was. We'll see how I feel then. But right now everything is terrible, and even trying to take my mind off it by doing something else doesn't help because how can I start goofing off with all my trees in ruins?
At times like this I always remember what I call the "three day rule". Whatever feels awful today, within three days time will not feel anything like as bad. Like you, I am on a streak of over 800 days, and I have to say that I am not keen on having all of my levels set to 3, with some even set to 2. But I know that I will develop new relationship with Duolingo and in time all will be well :-)
I feel as you do, its a bit like a bad haircut, after a week its as good as any other haircut. I am glad the fluency meter is gone........After 15 months it told me I was 68 % fluent German. Duos fluency score for me was only 82% English which I have spoken all my life. I always felt that the gold system was rather childish. A bit like stars in primary school. I like change, it promotes thought.
It's been ten years, and I'm still bitter about my last haircut.
I never paid attention to the fluency scores. But, like, the gold system was very satisfying to me. Most of the things I work at don't have a consistent feedback system: if someone likes the job I do, I find out months or years after the fact. This was one thing where I knew exactly how I was doing. And sure, that was how I was doing in relation to Duolingo, rather than to the language itself, but a) I'm self-aware enough to know how I'm doing in a language anyway and b) if you want to break it down that's how it is with any metric, and like, just because I succeeded at one doesn't mean I'm going to nail all the others, but that doesn't invalidate my success at that one. So yeah, I miss my golds, because it gave me something I don't really get from other places, and it was a nice steady thing I could maintain steadily, while saving the gruelling effort for the other things I do. And if that's childish, I think it's okay for me to have this one childish thing in my life. It was, anyway.
Thanks. But it's been four days, and I think I hate it more. I think I can live with it, but considering some of the other things I've learned to live with, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Edited to add: the thing that helped most with my German learning was moving on to Irish. Suddenly everything seemed so much easier by comparison.
please bring back level strength bars so we can see our progress on each level and choose where to progress while still working in parallel with the new automatic system :-)
It is made just for beginners! I just did 35 lessons to go to level 5 in food 2, all at the same level. Very boring! I want my percentage back, it has motivated me every day
Now you have "crown points" which is basically the number of skills on your tree multiplied by 5, the number of levels.
German tree has 121 skills... multiply that by 5 and you'll get 605 crown points. That's your goal now.
I wonder how many Crown points you have since you have almost 100,000 XP .. I have 30,000 XP and have 292 crown points (German), and 27,000 XP and 171 crown points (French). Hope you do have those 635 crown points in German by now, otherwise it's crazy for people who start from scratch with the new crown system and advance to level 5 on each skill before working on the next skill. It is for sure though that they would reach level 25 (30,000 XP) way before finishing the tree...
EDIT: and yes, I have also updated to the new system just today.
Yes, exactly! I have about 100,000 German XP, was on 70% fluency and yet only 362 Crown points, with no level above "3"! It's taken me over 2 years of excessive daily study to reach where they think I am. They expect me to do around 25 lessons to reach level 5 on the definite article! Now, don't get me wrong, I find German as tough as the next person, but I mean, seriously?!!?! :-(
That's crazy, I know I won't be hunting for all the crowns in either German or French, I have just recently done a lot of repetition of the bottom skills (the last ones) in my French tree, and yet they are all transferred to only level 2 crown system. That's clearly not corresponding to how much work I put in there, so I have no idea how they estimate these levels. I will go for level 2 or maximum 3 at some of them. Getting to level 5 in the whole tree would be just horrible work.
Steve, bar a German tree expansion, if you've done 100,000 German xp's I think you've clearly outgrown Duolingo milking it to the maximum. I'm currently sitting on 54,000 xp's and already think I'm reaching that point... nevermind a staggering number like 100,000.
My trees was also fully gold and my Crown Points is a paltry 249, so go figure.
Regilding the tree will push more to the gamification side of the course, and sure there will be a lot of repetition in the process... so I'm still pondering if it's worth it or not. For now I'm happily doing "practice" which won't affect the tree.
Except, the overall Crown points score doesn't seem to match (much higher) than the adding up the individual crown points. Does anyone know how the overall Crown points are calculated?
My first impression, having just switched over to it, is that Duo thinks I need, at this point in my German studies, 12 rounds of "He reads. She reads the newspaper. I read, you read. She reads the newspaper. I read the newspaper. I have bread. The bread. I drink. He reads." in order to advance my understanding of the accusative case. Thanks, duo.
Duolingo "transistioned" me today. I was 71% fluent in German (probably reasonaby accurate - I have lived in Germany and Austria and spoke German every day). Now I am generally 3 "crowns" on a scale of 1 to 5 (not at all accurate, based on my sampling of the stupidly easy questions that must be answered to move up). But here is the problem: to move up to 5 crowns, I would have to do a zillion number of repetitions of those stupidly easy questions. Under the previous system, I was doing nothing but "timed" practices, which held my interest. This new system is like going back to grade school after having completed college. If that bird brain Duo doesn't fix this, he can count me gone.
Perfectly put. I'm in the same position, and after an 800 day streak, I think Duo might be waving me goodbye. Terribly disappointing. What were they thinking?
Yes, the levels given BADLY underestimate more practiced users, and it makes it difficult or impossible to practice usefully. It's placed me at a 2 throughout the whole tree, which is baloney; I've tried banging through the lower levels, and while I can get them to a 5 in half an hour of non-stop typing, it's stupid and meaningless.
They can't have looked at the data -- I've had my entire tree gold perhaps four times, which means A LOT of practice, and substantially more practice at the earliest levels of the tree -- and they surely have that information. So how did they come up with a two -- throughout? Asked a student intern to do it? UGH.
I don't need practice with die Frau, der Mann, der Mann isst einen Apfel. It makes a lot more sense for me in Spanish, which I don't know anything like as well -- but is frustrating and silly for German. Can I use more practice with adjectives and adverbs, prepositions, and so on? Yes, I certainly can, but this isn't exposing or facilitating my need for that work.
I couldn't agree more. For experienced users this whole 'crown' rubbish is a virtual kick in the balls.
I think it was a good idea, but implemented poorly. I love the idea of having lessons become more difficult the more you practice a certain skill. However, I have some major issues with the update:
1) Skills no longer decay. Previously, I would practice any skills which had lost their gold status before learning new content. This was great for guiding me to practice the words which I had not practiced in a long time, helping to reinforce them in my memory. Now I have no way of seeing which skills I ought to re-do.
2) The strengthen lessons (the Dumbell icon) feel useless now. Although they will allow me to practice words which I am weak on, these lessons do not count towards advancing crown levels for particular skills. (Compare this to the previous way in which completing Dumbell lessons would re-gild skills which had lost their gold status, allowing me to visualise my progress.)
3) The number of repetitions required to reach Crown Levels 4 or 5 and access the more difficult exercises is ridiculous. It is tedious and repetitive to have to do 20 or even 30 lessons of the same skill just to level it up so I can access the more difficult questions. There should either be fewer lessons required to level up, or a "test out" feature which allows you to automatically level up based on your proficiency in that skill.
4) The word previews for each lesson are gone. I used to use these to teach myself the definitions and genders of the new nouns I would be learning before jumping into the lessons. Now I can no longer do this. Also, sometimes I want to practice a particular word, but now I cannot find the specific lesson containing that word.
5) I personally do not care too much about the aesthetics of having my entire language tree turn gold. However, I know for a lot of people that this was a huge motivator for them to keep practicing, so I can understand their disappointment. I can also see why veteran players are upset, given that they have invested a lot of time into gilding all of their skills but have now lost it all.
Also, I would say that the difficulty of the exercises at a given crown level varies massively depending on whether you have it set to "use keyboard" or "use answers that are already written out for you." It seems really questionable to treat both methods as if they have equal value or status.
I am thoroughly confused by this Crown system. I haven't knowingly requested it, it was just there this morning when I logged in. If it is a voluntary change that I have hit on accidentally, is it possible to voluntarily revert to the original system?
It's very different.
Having to do 36 rounds of translating "der Mann" and "Brot und Wasser" to get 5 crowns in basic 1 convinced me very quickly I'm not going to bother with crowns. The idea of doing something similar with more advanced lessons (which would take even more time) doesn't appeal to me at all.
Supposedly going up in crowns increases the difficulty of the passages. Whether this is true or not, the higher levels are behind such a wall of repetitive grinding that few will have the motivation to do them.
The theory behind skills decaying was a good one as it told you what you needed to practice, and stimulated that OCD to keep your tree gold. Now making your tree gold is just being willing to do an ungodly amount of grinding.
Skill decay is now gone entirely. If someone DID make their tree entirely gold though, I wouldn't worry about it. They'd have repeated the lessons so much that they MUST have it memorized by that point.
There's a lot of disconnect between the features of Duolingo right now. Are we supposed to go for crowns? What about Level? The fact it requires double or triple the amount of XP to get all the crowns vs to reach level 25 makes the level system redundant or irrelevant. The "practice" button is now a vestigial feature as well, in the sense that it doesn't affect anything in the actual game. Lingots of course have been without purpose for ages.
Obviously the ACTUAL goal for all of us is to learn a language. But the features of Duolingo as a game are not well designed.
Duolingo is a business and wants to keep people on the site for longer. I can only suspect the massive increase in the number of lessons you are required to repeat to reach maximum crowns was partly a motivator for this change. The fact that the overwhelming majority of users never get even close to level 25 makes me wonder why Duolingo thought it would be good to increase the experience ceiling (in the form of crowns) EVEN MORE. There'll always be something of a disconnect between what's best for people and what's best for business. If you're skillful you can make them work in harmony. It's a shame, because I liked Duolingo. Now not so much. I only hope since the website is constantly changing that in the coming months they'll improve things.
I have mixed feelings about the new Crown Level. One thing I did find helpful was to start at the bottom of the tree and work my way up. When I tried starting at the beginning of the tree, there was far too much redundancy on the basic levels. By starting at the bottom, there is some new stuff and it helps maintain the motivation.
I am still not convinced. I needed repetition to learn. In France it is even more necessary because of the pronouncation. I hope.they add this with un update
what's with the goldliness of the levels? How many crown levels do i need to get for each part to turn gold? It just seems never ending now....
Personally I am more motivated by the crown levels. I was in the position that I had completed the tree but was struggling to get the whole thing golden. I also felt that I needed to revisit topics and continually practise. Now I have that chance/motivation as the crown levels allow me to focus on what I can continually practise to improve and remain sharp. I have level 25 as my ultimate target, and personally I see the crown levels as more motivating to achieve my XP. The gold tree now does not appear possible or a target, rather more crown levels and XP are the way to go. Fluency may also be more of a target than before, as it appeared quite inaccurate previously and hard to get very high. Has anyone else felt this way ? Seems to be mostly negative feedback so far.. but I am a bit surprised.
I think you have made some excellent points there, and perhaps I need to think about my approach in relationship with Duolingo in the light of the new crown points system.
A new user posted that she/he had been on the site for one day and was already at level 13. It has taken me some time to get to that level, so I guess under this new system, you'll be able to get to 25 much quicker now.
I am not a fan. I never took the fluency rating seriously (because, how could that possibly be accurate?) but I would echo other comments regarding it's useless/poorly implemented "game-ification". The reward is simply doing more of the same lessons. Each crown "level" is just doing the same lessons even more - up to 48 times for some! I have an excellent memory and so even if I didn't "know" the answer I would just remember it. TO THE DUO PROGRAMMERS who might be reading this: Crown levels should not increase in number - they should increase in difficulty! Keep it at 10-15 questions max for each crown level, but take away the word selection. For the final crown level for example, (especially if you are just going to repeat the same questions) you should have to type-in every word, and there should be more player "production" = Write a question in the player's native language so that the player has to answer in the language they are trying to learn (again, typing in the words without options to select for the final crown level). That will get their mind in the space of "if I wanted to say this, how would I say it?" instead of just matching. This also removes the ability of solving via context clues that they might get doing the reverse. If possible, also change the questions with each level! Otherwise it is crazy repetitive, and not in a fun-educational way but a perfunctory-masturbatory way. There's no real incentive if there's no real challenge.
In spanish I have over 500 crowns and over. 100000 xps all lessons at level 4. and 5 a vast majority at level 5 so I'd say I worked very hard over the last 482 days but at this point every time I do one of the level 4 lessons skip to 5. And i achieve it sometimes even with full hearts I continue to the next lesson finish that successfully and go to do the next on the tree and when I get there the previous lesson is back on 4 I have done several of them more than three times each to reach level five and in the process have had at least 10000 xps( of my tally for the three languages of 157800) deducted each time they revert to the previous level 4 over a period of 2-3 month > an enthusism destroying mission. I have been working very hard to maintain my streak but I have been between 145000 and 158000 xps for the last 2 month and am at the end of my tether the crowns system quite simply does not function, most definitely not in my book, not only is it distressing it is quite honestly downright annoying and contrary to the duolingo did you know mission statement of it being free and fun it is certainly no fun nor is it funny I guess I am just going to have to sadly abandon this app after 482day streak / 500 crowns / and over 3000 lingots I also do danish and german this glitch impacts upon all my languages.???? It is my third attempt to complete this tree and the crowns system was introduced smack bang in the middle of my second attempt and it simply does not work "¿Que hacer?"