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  5. "Torg sees a red fish."

"Torg sees a red fish."

Translation:ghotI' Doq legh torgh.

April 8, 2018

8 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michael.Lubetsky

Would ghotI’ Doqqu’ legh torgh also be correct? Recognising that Doq can cover a broad range of “warm” colours, I thought that Doq was more suggestive of “orange” and Doqqu’ more suggestive of “red” (at least as we humans perceive the colours).

This is also (vaguely) consistent with Doqqu’ ‘ej wov meaning “pink” (given that pink is a mixture of red and white, although upon reflection, I have to wonder what a Klingon would mean if he said Doqqu’ ‘ej chIS).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Would ghotI’ Doqqu’ legh torgh also be correct?

It's not currently accepted for this exercise.

Recognising that Doq can cover a broad range of “warm” colours, I thought that Doq was more suggestive of “orange” and Doqqu’ more suggestive of “red” (at least as we humans perceive the colours).

What would SuDqu' mean, then? Yellow? Blue?

I have to wonder what a Klingon would mean if he said Doqqu’ ‘ej chIS).

Good question. My guess would be "very red-orange and white", like "Where's Waldo?"s striped shirt.

I have seen the phrase SuD 'ej Doq "blue and red(?)" to describe purple, which implies a mixture... on the other hand, I'm not sure where that's from. I've also seen the lack of a Klingon word for "purple" explained by the fact that Klingon eyes work differently and their colour vision cuts off at blue, so they have red–orange–yellow–green–blue without the –indigo–violet that we can see in a rainbow.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michael.Lubetsky

My source of information is the Klingon Pocket Dictionary (available online here: http://klingonska.org/). I don’t know how authoritative it is.

However, this is its entry for Doq (with a few edits and boldface added by me for emphasis)::

—-

tlh: Doq

pos: verb

en: be orange, be red

ref: KGT p.82; 1998-02-21-News (HolQeD-08-1 p.8); TNK (2011-11-01-Email)

cite: The word Doqqu’ (literally, very Doq) refers to a color more red than orange. [KGT p.82]

cite: Doq ’ej wovbe’ be orange, red and not be bright [i.e. brown] [1998-02-21-News]

cite: Doq ’ej wovbe’ brown [TNK]

cite: Doq ’ej SuD purple [TNK]

cite: Doqqu’ ’ej wov pink [TNK]

—-

Anyway, this is why I generally think of Doq as “orange” and Doqqu’ as “red”.

This is their entry for SuD (again, with a few edits):

tlh: [1] SuD

en: be green, be blue, be yellow

ref: KGT p.82; 1998-02-21-News (HolQeD-08-1 p.8); TNK (2011-11-01-Email)

cite: SuDqu’ (very SuD) would probably be described as green in Federation Standard. [KGT p.82]

cite: SuD ’ej wov means (it) is SuD and light, a way to refer to a yellowish tinge; SuD ’ach wov (SuD but light) is also heard. [KGT p.82]

cite: SuD ’ej wov light blue [TNK]

cite: Doq ’ej SuD purple [TNK]

cite: SuD ’ej Hurgh dark blue [TNK]

com: SuD can indicate quite a range of colors, and this (apparently) also goes for some of the more complex expressions to refer to specific colors, e.g. SuD ’ej wov (or SuD ’ach wov) could refer to either a light blue or a yellowish tinge (different sources give different translations -- see below examples -- all which plausibly falls within the meaning of the Klingon word).

This implies to me that, at a very high level of generality, SuD might correspond by default to “blue”, SuDqu’ to “green”, and SuD ‘ej wov to “yellowish”.

I defer to you and other experts to comment further.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Well cited.

From that same page in Klingon for the Galactic Traveler, there is this bit from the beginning of the paragraph that the above quotes are from:

As for the specific colors, in addition to the verbs {qIj} ("be black") and {chIS} ("be white"), there are only two terms used: {SuD} ("be blue, green, yellow") and {Doq} ("be red, orange"). For everyday purposes, these four words suffice, since there is usually not much reason to distin- guish, on the basis of hue alone, between two items that are both, say, {Doq} ("red, orange"). When it is necessary to talk about colors more precisely, as it might be for the creator of a {nagh beQ}, various devices are employed. One option is to make use of the emphatic suffix {-qu'}.

(My bold emphasis.)

Which is mostly how I've added sentences to the course myself -- i.e. used Doq indifferently for "red, orange" and SuD indifferently for "blue, green, yellow", without bothering much with -qu' or wov or beqpuj rur etc.

There may be some slight inconsistency since this course had multiple authors, but the majority of sentences are from loghaD and me.

An exception to my (non-)use of -qu' for colours is Doqqu' 'ej wov "pink" -- though as the above cite shows, this phrase is from "TNK" (i.e. Eurotalk's Talk Now: Klingon), which has had input from Okrand and is generally considered canon, but because the vocabulary taught is the same across all of "Talk Now"'s courses, it's not particularly well matched culturally to Klingon -- it includes things such as "good morning", for example and, well, "pink".

I've now gone through example sentences for Doq and SuD in this unit and added a few alternatives with Doqqu' where the English had "red" and SuDqu' where the English had "green", but if those words show up in any other units, those alternatives will likely not be in place.

I'd recommend that for the purpose of this course, you go with the "for everyday purposes, these four words suffice" approach.

Perhaps consider Doqqu' and SuDqu' the equivalent of "vermillion" and "chartreuse" -- useful for specialists but not used so much in everyday life.

Final disclaimer: I don't have much experience speaking Klingon to others, so I am only slightly aware of actual usage among Klingonists.

In this, I defer to others with more experience.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

If the course asks for the Klingon word for "red," it should allow Doqqu', because that's the Klingon word for "red." Red is a shade of Doq. If you want the answer to only be Doq, the English should ask for "red, orange" or something like that. Quite simply, there is no English word for Doq, so pegging it as "red" is incorrect.

Doqqu' is not a specialized term; it is a shade of Doq. It's the same as, for instance, light blue as a shade of blue.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

"If I understand you correctly, you are saying by Doqqu' [is] the Klingon word for "red" that all those shades that an English speaker associated with "red", and only those shades of colour, are represented by Doqqu': that the two terms Doqqu' and "red" are exactly equivalent. And with this I disagree."

That's not what I'm saying. Doqqu' means those shades of Doq that are on the red side of red/orange. It approximately equals "red." When an English sentence is presented that says "red," someone entering a Klingon sentence with Doqqu' is correctly translating it. It should not be marked wrong.

"That is, "light blue" is not a specific shade, either; it's a collection as well, just one that's a bit more specific than just "blue". It's a description, not an exact term."

There is no list of official color shades in English. Anyone who presents such a list is not authoritative. A shade is whatever subdivision of a broader color you want. If you want something as broad as "light blue," you can call that a shade.

English "red" is what is known as a "basic" color term. Any subdivision of red is a shade of red.

"We are not coding English sentences that are designed to uniquely identify one Klingon sentence for output. Instead, we try to turn more-or-less-natural English into more-or-less-natural Klingon and vice versa."

ghotI' Doqqu' legh torgh is a natural Klingon sentence. So is ghotI' Doq legh torgh. The former is closer to an accurate translation of "Torg sees a red fish" than the latter. I'm not saying just using Doq is wrong; I'm saying Doqqu' should be accepted, because you asked for "red" and got it.

"I think that a Klingon would, on most days, talk about fire engines as being Doq and not Doqqu'"

Fire engines come in reds and oranges and yellows. The reds and oranges can be distinguished from the yellows with Doq and SuD. But if you want to distinguish between the red and the orange, you're going to have to use Doqqu' to tell the red one from the orange one. This is not specialized artistic argot; this is everyday usage.

Again, I'm not saying that you have to make the exclusively correct translation of "red" Doqqu'; I'm saying you have to accept Doqqu' as a correct--and natural--translation of "red," because it is.

"We're not discussing naghmey beQ here, nor are we anthropologists. We're using language for "everyday purposes"."

Yeah. Like distinguishing the color of fish. Distinguishing between a red and an orange fish is something someone might want to do. Distinguishing between a bright scarlet fish and a slightly pinkish fish is also something someone might want to do, but you didn't offer English sentences with "bright scarlet" and "slightly pinkish" in them. I'll bet if you had put "scarlet" in an English sentence, you'd have expected Doqqu' as the translation. But scarlet is just a shade of red and red is just a shade of Doq.

Just accept Doqqu' as valid in this sentence, not required. That's all.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Quite simply, there is no Klingon word for "red", so pegging it as Doqqu' is incorrect.

I think we both agree that "red" is not one precise wavelength, both comprises a variety of shades and hues.

I think we also agree that all of those variations that an English speaker would consider as falling under the umbrella term "red", a Klingon would consider as falling under the umbrella term Doq.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying by Doqqu' [is] the Klingon word for "red" that all those shades that an English speaker associated with "red", and only those shades of colour, are represented by Doqqu': that the two terms Doqqu' and "red" are exactly equivalent. And with this I disagree.

I also disagree that "light blue [is] a shade of blue" -- looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shades_of_blue#Tints_of_blue , I might call all of baby blue, ice blue, and powder blue "light blue". That is, "light blue" is not a specific shade, either; it's a collection as well, just one that's a bit more specific than just "blue". It's a description, not an exact term.

I think we may also be disagreeing on the type of translation done in Duolingo.

We are not coding English sentences that are designed to uniquely identify one Klingon sentence for output. Instead, we try to turn more-or-less-natural English into more-or-less-natural Klingon and vice versa.

For example, in Klingon I might say that my daughter played with her lorpu' today. But in English, I wouldn't say that she played with her cross cousins today just because "cross cousin" is "the word for" lor. I would say that she played with her cousins, because in English I consider it more natural to use the more general term.

I would also talk about her "aunt" or her "grandmother", not her "father's sister" or "father's mother", even though those terms might be natural to a speaker of Swedish.

Similarly, I think that a Klingon would, on most days, talk about fire engines as being Doq and not Doqqu'.

Again I quote KGT:

As for the specific colors, in addition to the verbs {qIj} ("be black") and {chIS} ("be white"), there are only two terms used: {SuD} ("be blue, green, yellow") and {Doq} ("be red, orange"). For everyday purposes, these four words suffice, since there is usually not much reason to distin- guish, on the basis of hue alone, between two items that are both, say, {Doq} ("red, orange"). When it is necessary to talk about colors more precisely, as it might be for the creator of a {nagh beQ}, various devices are employed. One option is to make use of the emphatic suffix {-qu'}.

We're not discussing naghmey beQ here, nor are we anthropologists. We're using language for "everyday purposes".

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