https://www.duolingo.com/RobertoVentana

My Crown Levels are decaying

HI I logged on tonight to find a large proportion of my levels had reverted to zero. I was under the impression that under the new system the levels could not decay. I really do not want to back to Basics level 0 and start again having put in the effort to progress to a decent level. ¡No estoy feliz!

May 30, 2018

24 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/dlhgl

The reason seems to be that you got the new Spanish tree with 113 skills (the old Spanish tree had only 61 skills).

See also https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/27467011

May 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

dlhgl - They could have merged the skill set differently, perserving accomplishments instead of "shrink to fit" the old system into the new system, which meant "shrink to fit everyone's scores". It is very demoralizing and cruel to award people for hard work on the old system and strip them away on the new system. Besides crowns, I lost credit for all lessons learned, all Vocabs earned and my Golden Owl was taken away.

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/EevaMkinen

This happened to me as well. It's very discouraging, I do not want to repeat the same simple questions again and again. I'll start looking for other ways to study Spanish on-line.

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

I hear your pain. For me too!

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

I hear you, my Spanish Crown Level when from 128 to 101; My Lessons and Vocabs were also reduced. My Golden Owl stripped away. I am told by MODs that this is done to as our old accomplishments were not accurate with the new system. I say, upgrades should not destroy user data. I say, an upgrades should not eliminate the accomplishments earned in the old system. It is very demoralizing, cruel, insensitive, clueless to say the least. I am not happy either. When this first happened and I found out the reason why, I sat there and cried. I am still very upset. I decided not to renew my Plus account. If I could have deleted it as of yesterday I would have.

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/RobertoVentana

I would like to thank all those who have posted comments highlighting the shortcomings employed by DL in migrating to this new system by "shrink fitting". It is also somewhat dissapointing that Psion Pete thinks this is an improvement for which I should be eternally grateful. Lo siento pero no puedo acceptar este punto. Lo he intentado pero lamentablemente soy incapaz de hacer esto. Is there any way that DL can restore my previous levels or have we gone past the point of no return? If yes its such a shame and moreover a complete waste of my time. I really do not want to have to go back to translating statements like "I am a banana"

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

Keep in mind that it is not necessary to bring every skill to crown level 4 or 5.

If a skill is easy for you and you are not making mistakes ... I think it is perfectly OK to set it aside and work on other parts of the tree. After all, the goal is to learn a language (not have a 100% gold tree)!

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

RobertoVentana - give a look-see to my proposal for them to give us an option to stay with tree 1.0, with the condition that there would be: No MODs, No Support, New Flag - so it would not be extra burden for the MODs and Support, and I know they want the old tree's flag - so they can have the old tree's flag - and give us a new one of their choosing. Flag doesn't matter when I have to choose between the flag and tree 1.0. Here is my discussion link on the matter: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/27486431

June 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/RobertoVentana

Further to the previous post. When I log in my screen goes from crown level 153 to 126 after a few seconds. Then I am presented with multiple zero level categories. Looks like there is a bug in the system

May 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

I agree. The new system penalizes advanced users. Tree 2.0 did not preserve a persons accomplishments from the old system, for the sake of accurancy? Duolingo get real, it is not accurate to wipe out a person's accomplishments on the old verson just to make it easier to merge with the old system. I've used the new system, it is not any harder than the old system, it is just the same. A new crown is worth the same as an old crown. The problem was it was easier to downgrade everyone than to preserve everyone, to "shrink to fit" the old system and "shrink to fit" everyone's scores. Nice and tidy. Then make up "well it's more accurate".... yeah, right.

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

Sadly, DL's messaging about tree updates within the "crown system" has been thin and somewhat misleading.

I had a few brief discussions with forum moderators about this back when I was migrated to the crown system and the new French tree.

My take-away was that DL proper had given the volunteers (forum moderators) talking points to use when discussing the new system etc.

The messaging seemed to be stuck on the idea that "your crowns never go away", they "are always yours" ... which I could tell was a false statement. When I asked about losing crowns via tree updates, the messaging was that they were doing me a favor by "adding" more content. Trying to get anyone to acknowledge the disconnect in their messaging was impossible.

It is possible that DL proper didn't fully realize that what they were doing was similar to the following:

  • I'm in college, studying French. I finish 4 semesters.
  • My college changes the course textbook.
  • My college sends me a notice that I have to re-do the 4th semester because of the textbook change.

It is non-sensical.

I hope that DL proper re-considers/re-designs how the crown system interacts with tree updates.

May 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

W-Ruggles-Wolfe - I totally agree with you - circular logic. Crowns don't decay because we are adding more content for you so it is all good. LOL Fortunately the pain of having something precious to me taken away without reason is slowly fading: my Golden Owl - a symbol of 8 months of hard work. Since virtual accolades are meant to help people want to learn, you would think - they would have let tree 1.0 keep them. But, oh no, LOL. - I wrote a suggestion - let people finish tree 1.0 - with No MODs, No support, and a new flag, (no MODS and no Support - because I know that would be a hardship to support two trees). New tree flag - because I know they want the old Spanish flag for the new tree 2.0. - what do you think? https://www.duolingo.com/comment/27486431

June 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

Lots for me to think about. I'll post tomorrow. In the meanwhile... have you seen this?

https://youtu.be/-Ht4qiDRZE8

June 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

W-Ruggles-Wolfe - Yeah, it is great. I Google Searched it when I first heard about Duolingo last years. Because I could not believe it was free. So I searched for anything that let me know why they were giving free game-like-learning for free. This video convinced me that it was for the good and not bad. :-)

June 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

A few thoughts:

a) At the moment, Duome.eu hasn't fully adjusted/adapted to the new trees. For some reason, their "lessons completed" calculation is off, which is why it thinks you haven't completed your L0 tree even if you have. Because of this, Duome isn’t consistent about displaying folks’ golden owls. (It is important to keep in mind that duome.du isn't an official Duolingo site.)

I do not know why this is happening, and chances are the answer is complex/multi-layered. DL might have changed things in a such a way that Duome can't adapt. It's a big "who knows". More info here.

b) I have a lot of empathy for what Duolingo is going thru. Two big changes going on concurrently (crowns and new trees), so they are on a steep learning curve. Add their growth curve on top… and that’s a complex software/business challenge.

c) I don’t view the data as “mine”, as I would my photos/spreadsheets/docs on Google. We are collectively building a knowledge base (as the video outlines). You/I get some language skills and these intangible “badges” as rewards to keep us engaged.

My concern is less about “my data” and more re: the expectations DL has about how I will adapt when they modify a tree. Long thread here.

d) DL had two concurrent, and I’ll bet independent, projects going on. (And since you’ve been in software… you know what that can lead to.) My bet is that the messaging (your crowns will never decay) was developed by the crown group … and was not reviewed by the content (trees) group.

Hence the messaging confusion leading to user confusion.

e) It looks like you aren’t using the web version of DL. Why?

June 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

W-Ruggles-Wolfe I hope you are right. I know for a fact that before 2.0, on the Streakers LeaderBoard, my Spanish flag was enabled. I have a screen capture of it. Then when tree 2.0 came along, My Spanish flag was greyed out, and I have a screen capture of that too. But, I haven't tried it since that fateful day. I'll go try it. ---- Oh, I am using the web. I mostly use the web and at the gym on the stationary bike, I use the cell phone version. --- P.S. Tree 2.0 is growing on me. LOL I do like the new content and graphics.

June 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

Look at my French tree on duome.

https://duome.eu/W-Ruggles-Wolfe/progress

All of my skills are at L2 or greater ... but something in Duome's logic/process isn't displaying my Owl correctly.

Another weird thing are skills where I'm L1+ crown AND it is claiming I'm missing lessons - that is logically impossible. Look at my "Verbs: Infinitive 1" - I'm at L4! I know I'm not missing any lessons.... (Edit: my suspicion is that those are lessons which were in the OLD tree, and are NOT in the NEW. I can't do what I don't have access to.)

Lastly, for L1+ skills with "missing lessons", or a red dot after the %age strength .. it seems that the %age strength number is inaccurate. Look at my Basics1 and Basics2 skills. Duome lists them at 75% ... but I can tell you that I can answer those answers in my sleep with no errors. I've tried to get those skills to 100% by repeat-repeat-repeat but the number never changes.

It doesn't bother me. Something happened in the data conversion from the old-to-new tree.

I know that I know the content. If someone judges me based upon the Duome site, that's not my issue.

June 5, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

W-Ruggles-Wolfe I know what you mean. I noticed that the numbers were off too. But, like you, it did not bother me because just having it and seeing my standing in the Streak LeadersBoard was amazing. I really liked having my Spanish flag enabled because that meant that I had reached the bottom of the tree. But,now that is gone. It hurts a little less every day. :-)

June 5, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/shadowofthemoon

My two cents in your other thread: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/26899403

In short: it seems to be a series of unfortunate events, i.e. crowns transition + tree update = some lessons and skills messed up and highly unlikely (if at all possible) to be practiced "properly".

Strangely enough, there's something that prevents these skills from being "complete" while crown levels don't seem to depend on this "completeness" at all.

Maybe all you need is a very basic sentence with some specific form of some very basic word, but duolingo never gave it to you while you kept gaining crown levels all the way up to L5, and now it looks really strange having these "missing lessons" at level 5, but this is exactly what your extended profile reports (look for [missing_lessons] values), and this is actually why you see these values on duome.eu

June 29, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

@shadowofthemoon: Indeed my extended profile was corrupted during the transition/tree update.

I had a discussion w/pentaan, and apparently there are a few things going on. (Another is something about the new skills test-out A/B test is causing similar issues.)

June 29, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/psionpete

It is not a bug but you now have the latest update to the Spanish course which gives you a much larger vocabulary and more sentences etc etc etc. Plus some skills have been rearranged to be more logical

May 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

psionpete - I was a QA Analyst/ BSA (and my design ideas were accepted at companies like Northrup Grumman and Sony PIctures Entertainment and I made many users happy). And I would never have allowed an "upgrade" to destroy the integrity of the previous release's "user data". I would have been there offering suggestions how this could have been rolled out without much effort (it is the small touches that can mean so much) from hurting many people. For instance, From the Streaker's Leader's Board, I see some people still have their Golden Owl's (their Spanish Flags are still visible) - while others such as myself, our Spanish flags have been grayed out. - There had to be another way to keep Lessons, Vocabs, Golden Owls, Crowns. - For instance by making a new flag for Tree 1.0, everyone could have kept their Golden Owls, it would have been a new flag created for Tree 1.0. - Plus yes, reduce Crowns, Lessons earned, Vocabs earned and transfered them to this new entity Tree 1.0 with it's new Flag, so the users would have seen they lost nothing because they could have seen their "old" stats by clicking a link on the top menu entitled "My Tree 1.0 Stats", - so the roll out would not have been so dramatic to the people that were close to finishing Tree 1.0. - Then Tree 2.0 would not have been so shocking and the reduced Lessons learned, Crowns, and Vocabs would have been ok, because at least in a tab, all old accomplishments would still have been preserved. See my proposal to Display Option to allow users to finish Tree 1.0 before starting Tree 2.0. with: NO MODS, NO Support, New Flag. (so as not to burden MODS or Support, and so the old Spanish flag would stay for Tree 2.0., since a new flag would allow users to still have their Golden Owl to display in the Streak Leaders Board for Tree 1.0 accomplishments. https://www.duolingo.com/comment/27486431

June 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MaryEllen246097

psionpete - yes you are right it is not a bug since it was intentional - it was an "implementation" roll-out design plan that needlessly hurt a lot of people by intentionally destroying their accomplishments on tree 1.0. I knew it was designed this way, but after many, many years of offering human factor re-design suggestions to engineers - on how they can roll out what they need to without hurting users, I didn't want to say "bad design", so I used the word "bug", which does not sound so offensive. To me, when you needlessly hurt people when you don't have to, that is a bad design. --for instance my idea of making a main menu tab - "Your Tree 1.0 Stats" where users could see their old accomplishments: Crowns, Lessons, Vocabs, Lexemes, Golden Owls. - This would have shown users, that, see, DL, is still acknowledging their Tree 1.0 accomplishments. And my suggestion to create a new Flag for Tree 1.0, so that on the Streak Leader's Board, People would still have a New Flag visible (because they accomplished a Golden Owl on Tree 1.0), instead of being stripped of this honor. - See a few tiny tweeks suggested by a Computer Human Factors person, was all that was needed to avoid the demoralizing aspect of being stripped of honors needlessly and bad feelings. --- DL could still have rolled out a great Tree 2.0 - and it is great, without taking a hit on hurt feelings and alienating people to quit.

June 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/parrisdesign

My xp points are at 37,700 ...a friend asked to join my group and the invite said I have like 12,000 points. I suddenly realized that a while back I signed up on my phone, didn't like the experience on a small devise and later signed up on my computer (my devices aren't connected to each other for security reasons.) Now I have two accounts --can I just delete my app on my phone to get rid of the phone account completely? so someday when I want to travel with just my phone all is erased? is there a place to discover how these accounts are protected so we don't have to start all over.

October 21, 2018
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