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  5. "vongwI'pu' tIbIjQo'!"

"vongwI'pu' tIbIjQo'!"

Translation:Don't punish the hypnotists!

August 13, 2018

18 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_myr_

Just out of curiosity, is there some tale involving hypnotists and Klingons in the canon?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

ghobe'. mu' tlhaQ lulo' luneHlaw' paQDI'norgh 'oghwI'.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

These sentence discussions are supposed to have a speaker so we can listen to the audio while we discuss the sentence. There is a bug preventing this and it is not high priority, but should eventually get fixed. In the mean time, you can hear the audio for this sentence at: https://d1vq87e9lcf771.cloudfront.net/tlh_v2/868a75860acb5d1e3d99077ba1a93558


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

I recognize Agnieszka's voice. She has lost the o; it sounds kind of like a cross between a u and an H. Also, her -wI' sounds more like wIy.

I don't mean just to criticize Agnieszka. There needs to be clear and correct examples here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TARDISToni

Thanks for the link to the audio, Jeremy. I tried to post it in a comment last night, but the post failed. :-)

I suspected the variation might have something to do with the individual speaker's pronunciation, whether it was due to a Klingon dialect or the native language of the speaker. While I'm not an expert on Polish, I do believe that the final Polish vowel -o is generally shortened and brought forward somewhat compared to how native English speakers might pronounce it, although it seems even further exaggerated here. So, this confirms it's most likely a result of how Agnieszka's native tongue affected her pronunciation when she was learning Klingon - i.e., it's Klingon with a slight Polish accent. :-) When I initially heard this sentence, I actually thought maybe she was saying tIbIjqu', but I knew that the -qu' suffix (as we've learned it thus far) would not usually be combined with the tI- prefix in an imperative. So, it was logic and grammar, not audio and pronunciation alone, that led me to guessing at the correct answer.

I didn't immediately notice the dipthong in the wI' syllable in vongwI'pu', David, but thanks for pointing out the correct pronunciation of that as well. I have a tendency to lengthen my i vowels as well, due to having studied Russian and Ukrainian, and I need to be mindful of this and remember that this sound should be a short i, as in English pit, not a long one as in pizza. (Incidentally, I had to find a loanword to find an English example that actually pronounces an orthographic 'i' pronounced in this way; this sound is normally represented in English by an 'e' or an 'ee'.)

Still, it's excellent to have these audio examples - it's important that get used to hearing "accented" Klingon, too, if we want to continue learning it and eventually attend qepHommey and speak with others there. Not to mention, being aware of Agnieszka's accent will help us to better understand her audio examples going forward in the course, as demonstrated by my example above. So, I'm glad we addressed it. Thanks to everyone for your time and thorough explanations on this!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Qov-jIH-je

I won't record over 'ISqu', but I have recorded the two individual words in the sentence. (These need to be done separately for every word). That way you can at least hear two different speakers. I also am non-American, so my 'ot and 'ut may be again closer together than some Americans will expect. I use the word mosaic from Okrand's example as my 'ot model, and I think even Americans who say baax for box do say the mo in mosaic nice and round like the name Moe or the Klingon 'ot. Remember that Klingon not should sound like English note, never like knot or gnat, and Klingon Sut should sound have the vowel of English suit, never soot or shut, and not palatized the way some (not all) people say tune ("tyune").


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Actually, that audio is bad enough... Would you please go ahead and re-record it?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Qov-jIH-je

Done.

Someone needs to teach me how to get Duolingo discussions to show me replies and latest posts. I only found this, a week late, by obsessively searching "Klingon audio bad." The NEW tab only shows me new threads, not threads with new posts. Do I need to "follow" every thread?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

The NEW tab only shows me new threads, not threads with new posts.

Forum moderators have an extra tab in the discussions page which shows this; there will be an "ACTIVE (MOD)" tab in the same row as "NEW" and "SENTENCES" etc.

Perhaps @jdmcowan can ask to have you made not only a course contributor but also a forum moderator.

Other than that, systematically following every new discussion in the NEW tab will help going forward, though of course it won't alert you to any new posts in old discussions unless you find them all and follow them.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

Yes, you need to follow every thread. There is no way to ask for old threads with new posts.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Moderators have a special non-ideal tool. Qov, I'll post it in the FB group.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TARDISToni

Hooray, audio at last! :-)

Obviously, I've got the audio-playing version of this sentence. It's very helpful to finally hear audio, because I'm getting some minor differences from how the same sentence sounds when produced by the Klingon Text Reader (which, although the individual syllables are read by a human voice, is still computer-generated). For one thing, it's hard for us to know where to put the stress in some polysyllabic words: I wouldn't have guessed that the stress in vongwI'pu' and tIbIjQo' was on the final syllable in both cases.

More importantly, though, I'm hearing some minor pronunciation differences: if we compare this audio sentence to the link below, Text Reader pronounces the final vowel in tIbIjQo' more or less like an English "o" as in 'go', and the pronunciation guides I've seen say this is how it should be pronounced. But, this sentence's audio gives it more of a long -ū or "-oo" sound, so that -Qo' almost rhymes with the -pu' in vongwI'pu'. Can anyone shed any light on the difference between the two sounds? Which one is correct, or is there a dialectal difference?

Klingon Text Reader version: https://hol.kag.org/sentence/vongwI%2527pu%2527+tIbIjQo%2527


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

The audio currently on that sentence was recorded by 'ISqu' and she darkens and cuts off her vowel a little there at the end. Being somewhat used to her accent, I can hear the difference between that and her u, but I can understand why you're having trouble distinguishing that o from a u. Those kinds of variations are why we wanted to try to get multiple speakers recording the audio (and particularly why we wanted some non-American speakers). Her native language is Polish and that may color some of her pronunciations. Your prior understanding was correct and the sound represented by o should be a lot closer to "crow" than to "cool".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

If the Duolingo audio pronounced Klingon o like English oo in fool, then it's wrong. Klingon o sounds exactly like English o in go.

Unfortunately, there is no way to link to the audio you heard.

As for stress, the rules for Klingon stress aren't well known. TKD has some rules that it warns aren't absolute:

In a verb, the stressed syllable is usually the verb itself, as opposed to any prefix or suffix. If, however, a suffix ending with ' is separated from the verb by at least one other suffix, both the verb and the suffix ending in ' are stressed. In addition, if the meaning of any particular suffix is to be emphasized, the stress may shift to that syllable. Suffixes indicating negation or emphasis (section 4.3) are frequently stressed, as is the interrogative suffix (section 4.2.9).

In a noun, the stressed syllable is usually the syllable right before the first noun suffix, or the final syllable if there is no suffix. If, however, a syllable ending in ' is present, it is usually stressed instead. If there are two syllables in a row ' both ending in ', both are equally stressed.

Okrand himself tends to stress every syllable ending in '.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

I have happened across this sentence. What I heard was vongwI' tIbIchQ(u'). The j of bIj was not voiced, and the o near the end was hopelessly drowned out in the Q, which made it sound like only a faint echo of a u.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

If anyone wants to try to hear the audio, it's in the Vocab 3 Skill. I can't estimate the chances of hearing it in a single run through the Skill, but I suppose if you do the Skill over and over, you'll eventually hear it.

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