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"क्या तुमने खाया?"

Translation:Did you eat?

August 14, 2018

18 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Is this the same ने we have seen in perfective constructions?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

So, if I'm understanding tight from a later comment, is this an ergative ending?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RanzoG

Yes, it's the ergative. As to whether it's an "ending," the short answer is "yes." Long answer is: "Debatable."

ने marks the subject / doer when there is a transitive verb. I dunno if you'd say, therefore, that the /ne/ is part of a "case ending" or just a "particle" that marks. I would say the latter, as this is the custom in North Indian language pedagogy.

There is some variation on whether the /ne/ is written attached to or detached from the subject. I believe the current standard in Devanagari-Hindi is to attach it to the personal pronouns. Rest assured, however, that it is detachable! :) In light of this, it may be best to think of what precedes the /ne/ as the piece that's in a particular "case." Up to you.

As I mentioned in the other comment, I think teachers / describers of Hindi have usually found it most expedient just to say that: 1) /ne/ is needed to mark the subject when there is a transitive verb 2) /ne/, like [other] postposition, puts the preceding noun into the oblique case... 3) ...with the exceptions being the pronouns—whose forms one should check on.

I personally think of /ne/ as a postposition meaning "by". As in: Whom was this done by? By me, by you, by Raj, etc.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Thank you. I don't know whether that will help anyone else, but it clarifies the situation for me perfectly.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RanzoG

Off topic: I don't know if you're a linguist at all. (I am not per se, and I suspect you're a lot more knowledgeable about language grammar generally than me). But you may enjoy this puzzle (for which I have no answer):

In Punjabi, the first and second person, singular and plural, pronouns are not marked with /ne/ in similar situations. Only third-person nouns and pronouns receive /ne/.

I suspect the simply has to do with the fact that /ne/ is not absolutely needed to discern meaning in these cases. In Hindi, it's not needed for comprehension, it merely helps.

I'd love to hear some theories or explanations though. Perhaps /ne/ was historically developed for the third person only, for example, but later taken on in Hindi for the 1st and 2nd person.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTWils

Well, damn. Now I have to learn Punjabi.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoaoDSouza

Actually, in Punjabi, you can also choose not to use the the particle "ne" with the ergative form of third person pronoun, "Os". Such forms also exist for اسیں، تسیں and plural اوہ. They would be, اساں، تساں، and اونہاں. These forms are not at all mandatory. They depend on dialects and are more often arbitrary. Note the famous, "جس لہور نہیں ویکھیا اوہ جمیا ہی نہیں".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RanzoG

Yes, good examples! But while not using /ne/ in those cases, one has transformed the pronoun. You wouldn't just say "oh" (third person) without adding ne or transforming it to "os" (would you?).

Whereas what I was referring (not being as complete as you in my comment) to was how the first and second-person forms just sit there, with no /ne/, in what looks to be the "direct case" form.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoaoDSouza

You can actually use oh like that


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dineshdastan

In some sentences verb describes the subject and in some sentences it describes the object.. is there any rules for past tense verbs??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vinay92
Mod
  • 1393

For transitive verbs (verbs which can take direct objects), the verb conjugates with its object(s) in the past tense. If there are no objects in a particular sentence like this one, it is in the masculine singular form.

For intransitive verbs (verbs which cannot take direct objects), the verb always conjugates with the subject.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/4buRmP5H

Would "khaye" (plural) also be acceptable? If so, then I'd assume it depends on whether you talk to one or multiple people?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vinay92
Mod
  • 1393

No. Since खाना is a transitive verb, its form in the past tense (खाया/खाई/खाए) depends on the gender and number of its objects (and not the subject). Eg: क्या तुमने केले खाए?, क्या तुमने केला खाया ?, क्या तुमने रोटी खाई ?

When there is no object like in the sentence 'क्या तुमने खाया?', you use the masculine singular form.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maz1269

Why are we using the ergative marker if we are using the "intransitive form" of khaanaa?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vinay92
Mod
  • 1393

In Hindi, unlike in English, transitivity is an innate property of a verb. So, a transitive verb is one which can have direct objects. It doesn't need to have a direct object in every sentence.

When it has no direct object in a particular sentence like this one, it is used in the singular masculine form (for tenses where transitive verbs take their objects' gender).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maz1269

this is exactly what i wanted to know, thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoaoDSouza

I'll just tell you this. Whenever there appears a transitive verb in Hindi with no object, the implied object is either "vo" or "use".

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