https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jules377

She should have known it Deve averlo saputo

I thought she should have known it would translate as deve averlo saputo but an Italian friend told me dovevo saperlo? Now I’m confused I would translate dovevo saperlo -she was supposed to know it Ha Dovuto Saperlo - she had to know it Any help would be greatful

Thanks

I’ve made a big mistake here in my question. I meant she must have known it

August 21, 2018

45 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Lei l'avrebbe dovuto sapere.

August 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jules377

I made a huge mistake in my entry to this forum and am kicking myself. What I meant to say is “she must have known it!” Hence deve averlo saputo

August 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Ciao Jules. Non ti preoccupare. The first entry I made two years ago told the world I had a golden hotel instead of "albero"! Eek! Have a good evening:-)

August 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Giovanna-Louise

Ciao Linda.. haha..LOL..That really makes me feel better about my own first attempts at communicating with native french speakers on Eurosport football section..also couple years ago....they really had a good laugh at the time..:-)) you are right,it is all learning process..

Therefore it is important to take yourself and others with humor and expect some criticism..makes one grow.. when one French fan on that site tried to really mock me for my mistakes, i just wrote to him in French:.".hey,you, do not worry so much..I am just a French learner..tomorrow I will write a lot better, I promise!:-))" he had nothing to respond to that..:-))

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

You're so right. Because of my mistakes (3 in one sentence!) a fellow Duolinguist spent over 12 months teaching me. The club has definitely taught me to talk senza paura, regardless of "golden hotels". A dopo...

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Giovanna-Louise

You were very fortunate to have such a teacher and that is why now you encourage others.. A dopo !..:-))

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Ha! He loves us to bits really ;-)

August 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

I am sure he does, if he likes to suffer :-D

August 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

She must have known it.

I am trying to contextualize the sentence.
This seems to me as a remark if, for instance, I challenged Vesna by saying: "Try and guess what's my telephone number" and, quite surprisingly, her guess was right. So Linda may comment: "She must have known it!"
In this case the Italian translation would be:

  • (Lei) lo doveva sapere.

or alternatively

  • (Lei) doveva saperlo.

in which dovere does not express an obligation of some kind, but is used with a meaning of "it could have not been any other way".

Instead, in a completely different context, speaking of something that "she" was ought to know:

  • She should have known it. = (Lei) lo avrebbe / l'avrebbe dovuto sapere.

or alternatively

  • (Lei) avrebbe dovuto saperlo.

But in the colloquial language also this sentence could often turn into:

  • (Lei) lo doveva sapere. / (Lei) doveva saperlo.

So the context of speech would disambiguate the meaning.

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

CivisRomanus. Ti do incommensurabile, mi dai disambiguate. Grazie per la spiegazione, come sempre:-)

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Linda e Civis, ma dove trovate queste parole? Vi piace pavoneggiarsi? :-D

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Oh Vesna, questa parola è stupenda. Non vedo l'ora di usarlo:-D))) Mille grazie. Ps, just realised. Pavoneggiarsi as in to dance the pavone (in French).

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Giovanna-Louise

It was an awesome wordplay , mi piace molto..:)) And thanks to your comment, Vesna, I just learned a new verb..pavoneggiarsi..(to show off?)..what an awesome expressive language..

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Giovanna, I am very glad that you like it. When I saw pavoneggiarsi for the first time I though it was fantastic and I had to use it. :-)

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Giovanna-Louise

Sì!..Yes!! As a novice I am just getting to know the marvellous world of Italian language and some words are absolutely unique and so expressively beautiful.. your language sense is excellent

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

I'm starting to suspect that Linda has got this book. :-D

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Ho ho, il libro rosso e grande! Che fantastico. Ma no, Civis, infatti pavoneggiarsi was from Giovanna è disambiguate is yours. I still own the rights, however, to incommensurabile:-D I'm sure you are aware of the E word "discombobulate" so it's now yours to keep. Una buona giornata. L

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Giovanna-Louise

LOL...:-)))))) Tutti e due,voi, siete completamente formidabili..

Linda, grazie per un complimento ,ma la parola "pavoneggiarsi ' non è venuta da me ,ma da @Vesna 2691.. I learned it from the comment made by VESNA 2691

Civis, grazie mille per aver introdotto questo libro..!:-))

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Ciao Giovanna. Have explained my discombobulation to Vesna. Divertiti il giorno:-)

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

Discombobulate

The equivalent Italian verb is very similar: scombussolare. :-)
The initial s- is the short form of the prefix dis-, and the rest of the word clearly shares the same origin.

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Giovanna-Louise

Sì, nessun problema! :-) una bella giornata a te!..

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Scombussolare? Magico! Grazie.

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Ciao Vesna, mi dispiace "pavoneggiarsi" viene di te, non Giovanna. I was too busy practicing the pavane and was discombobulated! What a fine Discussion stream we have created:-D

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Linda, no need to apologize. I agree,"fancy" words are fun, but I have a (Italian grammar) mountain to climb. So, for me is back to basics. Io sono, tu sei, lui/lei ...... :-D

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Vesna. Sono nella stessa barca, credimi. Ciao...

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Giovanna-Louise

@ Civis Romano simply brilliant..great explanations

È davvero una spiegazione brillante

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

Grazie, gentilissima! :-)

August 24, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jules377

Thanks Civus , that’s really helpful, am grateful for you help on this forum. Now I’m wondering if have mixed up these ones too?

She must have left - Deve aver lasciato She must have heard - deve aver sentito She must have seen it- deve averlo visto She must have done it - deve averlo fatto

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

She must have left - Deve aver lasciato
She must have heard - deve aver sentito
She must have seen it- deve averlo visto
She must have done it - deve averlo fatto

All of them are correct, congrats!

However, if "she must have left" means "she must have departed", the Italian verb is not lasciare, but partire:

  • She must have left = Deve essere partita → Dev'essere partita.

And if "she must have left" means "she must have gone away" (from a given place), the verb is andarsene or andare via (or, informally, a combination of both).
So the sentence would turn into:

  • She must have left = Deve essersene andata → Dev'essersene andata

or

  • Deve essere andata via → Dev'essere andata via

or (informally)

  • Deve essersene andata via → Dev'essersene andata via.
August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jules377

Civis Thank you don’t know what I would do without you!

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jules377

But if she must have gone to the toilet? Dev’essere andato al bagno

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

To the toilet? Couldn't you find somewhere nicer for her to go to? :-D

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

The interesting feature of bagno is that one can go / be either in or al:

  • al bagno / in bagno.

With any other part of the house one can only go / be in:

  • in cucina

  • in salotto

  • in garage

  • in giardino

etc.

Instead, with two synonyms of bagno only al / alla can be used:

  • al gabinetto

  • alla toilette.

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

Almost correct!

  • She must have gone to the toilet. = Dev’essere andata al bagno / in bagno.

Since the auxiliary is essere, the past participle must agree with the subject of the sentence ("she") → andatA.

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

(no reply button, either)

Devo essere molto attenta di quello che io dica, perché tu possa usarlo per un'altra lezione di grammatica. :-D (Does this even make sense in Italian?)

This is a tough sentence, I'm impressed! It only needs a little tuning:

  • Devo stare molto attenta a quello che (io) dico...

Essere attento/attenta is not wrong, but it would be used in a very limited number of contexts. In a large majority of cases, when the meaning is "to beware" (of something), "to pay attention", "to focus" (on something), etc., stare attento/attenta is the verb used, literally "to stay careful".

The prepositions used with the verb are:

  • Stare attento a... = To beware of... / To be careful of... / To pay attention to... /

  • Stare attento nel + infinitive = To be careful / take care in (doing)


With regard to the second part of your sentence, the choice of the mood for the verb potere is crucial, because the meaning of perché depends on it, so the meaning of the whole clause can completely change:

  • perché (tu) puoi... / potresti... = because you can... / could...

  • perché (tu) possa... = so that you can... (in order for you to...)

The conjunction perché can take two different meanings:

  • perché + indicative or conditional = because (in a causal clause)

this perché can be replaced with poiché, or in quanto / in quanto che;

  • perché + subjunctive = so that (in a final clause, a.k.a. clause of purpose).

this perché can be replaced with affinché.

So in your sentence:

  • ...perché (tu) puoi / potresti usarlo per un'altra lezione di grammatica. = ...because you can / could use it for another grammar lesson.

  • ...perché (tu) possa usarlo per un'altra lezione di grammatica. = ...so that you can use it (in order for you to use it) for another grammar lesson.

August 24, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jules377

Grazie mille

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Sorry, no reply button there.
Civis, mi stai spaventando. Devo essere molto attenta di quello che io dica, perché tu possa usarlo per un'altra lezione di grammatica. :-D (Does this even make sense in Italian?)

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Impressed? Civis you are kidding me! My sentence is completely wrong with the wrong meaning. It is embarrassing! No "little tuning" can help it. :-D But, I can live with that. What really gets my blood boiling is that I did not remember STARE attenta. I heard it thousand times in the song "Attenta" from Negramaro.
Thank you for taking the time to correct my mess. :-D

August 24, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Linda7Italian

Ciao Jules. Interesting. I would have written "Lei avrebbe dovuto saperlo". Come in CivisRomanus o un madrelingua:-))

August 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Oh,poor Civis with us. He must be pulling his hair. :-D

August 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CivisRomanus

Mi fischiavano le orecchie... :-D

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

È ora di investire in un paio di buoni tappi auricolari. :-D (should it be l'ora?)

August 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maryfromitaly

No, you are right! :D

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vesna2691

Grazie mille.

August 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jules377

You are right!

August 21, 2018
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