Quite similar indeed. I'm Brazilian and we learn Spanish as well in schools around here. I live in a region that borders Argentina and Uruguay, though... I'm not sure if that's the reason. Somebody from the Brazilian South-East, please tell me if that happens around there as well :). Spanish as well has this kind of conjunctions. Spanish is for Portuguese like Ukrainian is to Russian.
Anyway, I understand these verb conjunctions could be tricky at first for English speaking people, as English is a really simple language with not many verb conjunctions and not many articles, but after you get how it works in Italian, it will work really close to most of Latin languages.
I tell you, get this course until you get the verb conjunctions and then start other Latin languages like Portuguese and French. You'll see how way easier it will be to learn these other languages after knowing how the verbs work in Latin based languages.
Taffarelbergamin this question is off topic, but since you mentioned you live in Brazil near a border, I have read that there is a Portuguese Spanish Creole in some border areas. I was just curious about it. I am finding Portuguese difficult to understand, although reading is a little easier. I was just curious about what a "remix" would be like.
Lynettemcw, in my state we even have a different official grammar because of that... It is not a lot different, but I'll give you an example:
I see you are learning both Portuguese and Spanish and by that level, I believe you will get it... In general Brazilian Portuguese, the singular "you" is "você", but here, it is "tu" like the informal "you" of Spanish and even the verb flexes like in Spanish:
General Brazilian Portuguese: "Você está escrevendo"
Rio Grande do Sul state Portuguese: "Tu estás escrevendo"
In Duolingo's course I believe both forms are accepted because they are both accepted in the English course for Portuguese speakers (it still has some problems with European Portuguese, though. In the sentence above the gerund would be "a escrever" and I've seen many Portuguese people saying it is not being accepted in the English course for Portuguese speakers)
But of course, there are words outside the official dictionaries. My state has a bit of a complex Creoles list... In the cities bordering Argentina and Uruguay, it has a strong influence from Spanish. Much more than just the grammar, but even the pronunciation. Closer to the state's centre we have mixes mainly with Italian, German and Polish because of the immigrants, which is the reason why I'm studying Italian right now. My family came to Brazil around the years when Brazilian slavery was banished. Many families from Europe came to Brazil to substitute the slave workforce.
My family came from the Veneto region, so we speak a Creole of Venetian Italian with Portuguese and because of our historical connections with Spanish in this state, mixed a bit as well with Spanish. Another family from another region of Italy would say things differently than us even now we living in the same city. We kind of got used to it, but I really want to learn grammatical Italian, so here I am hehehe
Thank you for sharing. I actually have always been fascinated with Brazil, but I have to admit I know virtually nothing at all about it. I might get some angry responses from my fellow Americans, but Americans do not learn really anything about the history or culture of most of the world. We learned about the explorers a little and after that nothing. All of South American history is ignored as is most African history.
I am interested that when you modelled your tu and você sentences you modelled them in the present progressive. I am familiar with the Spanish progressive tenses of course, but it is used much less frequently in Spanish. In English of course it is the default present tense for action verbs (as opposed to think etc) Does Brazilian Portuguese use the present progressive more frequently than Spanish?
I am curious how the creoles have dealt with the sound profiles of the languages. I have found that what I was told was true. I can .make out a little Portuguese by reading, but I generally can pick out more words from spoken Italian based on my Spainish. Of course I am aware that pronunciation varies widely according to the region. I have to admit that I almost quit Portuguese as soon as I started because of the variable sounds. Spanish sounds may not always be easy for an American to pronounce without a bad accent, but I have recognized how they were supposed to be pronounced almost immediately.
Thanks for sharing this. It is fascinating. Last November I visited Brazil for the first time, but only the Foz do Iguaçu area. I read several things about the history of who came from where in different parts of Brazil, but it is great to hear from a person and not just a book :-)
Mary, I'm happy to know! BTW, even happier to know that you chose to visit Iguaçu instead of just visiting Rio de Janeiro or the North-East beaches like most visitors. They are gorgeous places, but don't represent the real Brazil.
I don't know where are you from, but the next time you come, I advise you to come a little bit more to the South and take a look in the European mix we have here. If you speak any German or Italian (have you tested your Duolingo Italian? Maybe could be a nice experience), your hosts will be delighted and will not stop speaking hehehe be prepared to people offering you salami and cheese for bringing back home. If you don't like a too cold or too hot weather, I advise you to come in the mid-seasons because depending on the place, you could get some snow during winter (about -5°C) and 35°C during summer here. We have a really nice canyon called Itaimbezinho (as you may have noticed, we still have many Indian names around here. Itaimbezinho means Sharp Stone in Guarani).
Unfortunately (or not), Brazil is way too big for having one short visit hehehe my girlfriend is from Russia and I have been planning her first visit to Brazil for a few months already. I ended up not being able to plan anything outside my state because she will stay for only one month. I will show her my state, but I would like to bring her to Iguaçu as well. It is gorgeous.
I would love to bring her to Rio de Janeiro, but I am myself afraid of the crimes and violence there... Even more now with the possibility of our president being impeached... Most of the poor people love her and Rio is surrounded by shanty towns. Most of the rich people hate her and both go on protesting... I am afraid of clashes in these big cities. The same goes for São Paulo... I would rather wait all this process pass before going there (I've never been to Rio and with her here I thought it to be a nice moment for visiting it. But then this happens...)
Present Progressive? Never heard of it hehehe For me these are common gerund... the Portuguese "-ing" with the verb "to be" (that in Portuguese are two: ser/estar)
About pronunciation/accent, it gets more Spanish-like closer to the borders, more Italian-like in the Italian regions, more German-like in the German regions, etc. In the state capital (Porto Alegre) and metropolitan region, there is yet another different accent...
Hi, lynettemcw. I was reading your discussion, when I saw that you said that you gave up on Portuguese because of its variable sounds. I am sorry to hear that. Which variable sounds? I speak European Portuguese, so it may be true that Brazilian Portuguese varies its sounds a bit, although I am not too sure. If you ever have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Boa sorte
Obrigada. I have returned to Portuguese. It was just when I first started the course I had a problem even trying to parse the sounds I heard to the words I saw. I found some videos on YouTube which showed me a break down by letter and by position. I still haven't mastered it, but it did explain why some words that look the same in Spanish and Portuguese sound different (like como, although that is relatively easy) and other words look different but sound the same like leite and leche. I haven't yet internalized most of these rules, although de at the end I got, but it won't feel comfortable until I can read Portuguese comfortably knowing how to pronounce it. I have no idea how different the language is in Portugal, but I did gather that the pronunciation in Rio is not whatever is considered Standard Brazilian Portuguese and is perhaps more like that of Portugal. They never talk about the Portuguese spoken in Africa. I assume that has taken a few unique turns of its own as that is what languages do. You appear to have part of a flag as your picture, but I don't recognize it. Is Portuguese your first language?
English is one of the hardest languages to learn along with japanese and so on easy if your born speaking it, I have many polish and latin friends who also agree and tell me how hard it is to learn one polish friend has been in UK Learning to speak english for 14 years and to a english speaker, she is still very basic in english.
Also can anyone please explain how the verbs and everything work I understand to english layout everything is almost said backwards example fried egg, egg fried but so many different ways off spelling for words for the same thing and one most of the words stand for more then one thing can be so confusing sometimes and hard to keep up with.
How which verbs work? In English, present tense is the same for all people except for the third-person singular: "I cook, you cook, he/she/it cooks, we cook, you cook, they cook." In Italian, «cucinare» is an «-are» verb, so its conjugation is «(io) cucino, (tu) cucini, (lui/lei/Lei) cucina, (noi) cuciniamo, (voi) cucinate, (loro/Loro) cucinano.». Hope this helps. :)
Sir, try to remember the "backward words" in another way. English is a bit picky about adjectives, so lets do it "easy mode" hehehe
In English, adjectives and characteristics in general come before the noun. This is the main rule. There are some cases in which you could put it after like in Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc., but usually you don't have to bother with these options. Have in your mind: characteristics come first.
The picky part: it has an order. One does not simply throw every adjectives there in any order. The rules are easy to find in Google, but here is the first link about this subject in Google:
I am a Dominican Republic born speaker and learned Japanese fluently with consistency. The key is to do it daily and apply what you learn. After completing several textbooks, I focused on Kanji and then started to read.. a lot. It sticks when you start reading in the target language.
Now 10 April 2018, if you left-click on cucino in the discussion sentence (but not the exercise sentence), it brings up the present conjugation of cucinare - also simple past, future, and some subjunctive tenses. I don't know if that happens in every discussion sentence, but it ought to.
On the real world it is a legitimate translation, but Duo uses a tense for tense convention except where it is very problematic. Since Italian has a progressive form, although not used nearly as often as English, Duo reserves that type of translation for the Italian progressive. It is not meant to convey that it is the only appropriate use, it simply allows them to focus on the tense they want to drill.
From some few conversations I've had with some developers, often the failure to translate a foreign simple present into English progressive present is more a question of not finding the time to add English progressive simple to the database. The French course, for instance, pretty much accepts English present progressive for French simple present. The Spanish course is getting better at this, and so is the Italian course.
What it takes is people reporting appropriate present progressive translations as "should accept my sentence" errors. Corrections will be made only if the Developers are notified of possible errors.
In this particular sentence, though, I'm not so sure. When Italian leaves out the article, it seems to be referring to very generalized concepts. A person can't "be cooking" a generalized concept ("I a chef; I cook fish.") Cucino pesce.
I think if you're talking about the generalized concept of cooking a certain but unknown amount of fish, then you'd use the Italian article: "I can smell the odors from the kitchen from across the street; what are you cooking?" "I am cooking fish." Cucino il pesce.
Based on my reading different the discussions, use of the article is changing in spoken Italian - it's being omitted whereas 40 years ago would be be required.
I hope this generates some more discussion, because it sure seems like Duo is letting us all hang out to dry on this topic.
I don't dispute any discussions you had with programmers, but if they are beginning to accept present progressive translations for present tense sentences in Spanish, Italian or Portuguese, it is a new push. French and German always had accepted and even encouraged present progressive translation for the present tense, but those languages don't have their own progressive tenses. In the languages that do, like Italian and the ones I mentioned above, Duo has, historically at least, tried to limit those translation to the appropriate present progressive statements in the language. I doubt they will ever completely abandon that approach. They aren't suggesting that the use of the progressive is the same in these languages as it is in English, but they need a method for différenciating which tense is being practiced.
What I mean is that in this sentence, if you add "il", it would mean the fish is a topic you've been discussing beforehand, so you can definitely express the idea that it is the fish you were talking about earlier. If you add "un", it would mean one fish.
By not adding any, it could mean something like:
-- what do you cook?
-- I cook fish, pork and beef, but I do not cook vegetables.
Delrocdm, I'm not native from neither English nor Italian, but I guess the use of definite and indefinite articles are the same in both languages and my native Portuguese (except for number and gender as English doesn't have them for articles anymore), in this way you would have the following possibilities (bear in mind that the singular indefinite article is derived from the same root as "one" in most languages, including English and in some they are even written exactly the same):
- Io cucino il pesce = I cook the fish
- Sto cucinando il pesce = I'm cooking the fish
- Io cucino un pesce = I cook a/one fish
- Sto cucinando un pesce = I'm cooking a/one fish
- Io cucino pesce = I cook fish
- Sto cucinando pesce = I'm cooking fish
It could expand for the plural, but I'm not sure if "fishes" is actually used in this meaning, so I'm not adding them.
Also, the sentences in English with articles and simple present sound weird to me and they are possibly wrong both in English and Italian for the same reason. Like the sentence "I cook the fish" sounds like the person is offering cooking the fish, but for me, it would make more sense to say "I'll cook the fish", which would also change the Italian variant...
In any way, these are my views on the use of articles. I would like to see a native Italian and/or a course Adm getting into the discussion. I really want to know from a native if I'm right or wrong...
In Brazil, about half the population of the region where I live used to learn Italian before entering the school and learning Portuguese (not me, though) because of our Italian origins, but it is a Veneto dialect from the late 1800's (slavery was abolished in Brazil and the Veneto were called to continue the hard work) and nowadays it is highly mixed with Portuguese... So might be I'm having this language problem when trying to understand grammatical Italian...
I agree--I answered "I cook the fish" because to me, grammatically, it made more sense than "I cook fish" (for me that feels like I'm making more than one fish, but the sentence was felt like it was leaning towards a single fish), and it got marked wrong. Essentially, if someone answers with something close to "I cook up fish", I believe it should be counted as correct.
I'm this case, adding the definite article in Italian would make exactly the same difference as adding it in English. There are differences in the rules though, obviously. Some, like using a definite article before days of the week and the time, are fairly easy to learn. The most difficult one to understand is that Italian uses the definite article any time they are generalizing about something. English never does in that case. So any Italian sentence about things is likely to have a definite article because it will be a generalizing statement. But there are other statements which can generalize about an object.
Italian definitely uses their definite articles more than English, but this is one case where the rule is the same. If you added il before pesce it would have exactly the same difference in meaning as if you added "the" to the English. When you say I cook the fish you are talking about a specific fish, probably the one from the fridge. That's what Io cucino il pesce means.
There are two major situations where we don't use the definite article in English. This is one of those situations, and it works the same way in Italian. It's essentially when you have either an uncountable noun or the plural form of a countable noun. It's the case of the implied "some". I really have to Thank Duo for helping me revive my high school French, because remembering about the partitive article which is required in French when there is this implied "some", I realized the same concept could be used to explain the case in Italian and Spanish where they DON'T use an article, just as we don't. Here if you said I cook some fish, there would be no difference in what you were saying that you were cooking. With plural countable nouns it's the same way. I need plates and I need some plates are essentially saying the same thing. Some is implied. So here, again, the Italian article is not used. Ho bisogno di piatti.
It is the OTHER case that we don't use the article where Italian does. We don't use the definite article when we are generalizing about something or talking about "all". This is why you will never see a noun as the subject of an Italian sentence without an article. If something is the subject of the sentence, that means that the sentence is making a general statement about that thing. Italian makes it a little easier by making the thing liked the subject of the sentence, but there are also objects that you are making statements about the "all". This is where Italian uses the article and we don't.
You don't have a "the" so I cook fish is sufficient. Cook up isn't strictly speaking wrong, it's just rather down home colloquial. But it doesn't belong here. Those errors should be reported through the flag icon each time. Duo is definitely on the squeaky wheel scheduling basis.
It is hard to recognize because we don't have many words starting with io, but the word is io capitalized as Io which in most fonts looks like lowercase lo, although when capitalized it would be Lo. Lo is also a direct object pronoun which would also preceed the verb, but there is no need for a pronoun as we have a named direct object. You could have just omitted the Io and put Cucino pesce, since subject pronouns are routinely omitted in Italian. But confusing Io for Lo doesn't work
This is a very rare occurrence with Duo's fluke issues. Mostly I have assumed that it has to do with network traffic. But sometimes it seems more related to your own connection. If a Duo fluke is causing you problems beyond a single run through, exit Duolingo and reboot your computer or device. It should help.
I think that most people use more than one ingredient in whatever they cook, but I have had people say they would "cook up a mess of greens (or mess o'greens) It is certainly used by more people to discuss cooking up stories or schemes or plans, but it is used in many colloquial dialects of English. That is not to say this should be a model answer, but it is used as such.