28 Comments
Would this phrase only suggest closeness in the sense of physical proximity, or could it also be used in relation to emotional closeness?
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I see a lot of comments suggesting "Me and her" or "Her and me".
What i have learned at school is that these are possessive pronouns.
I know that it's used like that in everyday speech, but is it grammatically correct to use a possessive pronoun as a subject in a sentence ?
What do these pronouns possess ?
- 1348
'Me' is an accusative (or objective), not a possessive pronoun; 'my' and 'mine' are possessive pronouns. 'Her' can be both accusative and possessive, which is where your confusion might lie.
'Her' does not possess anything in the sentence 'I see her'; it does, however, in the sentence 'I see her dog'.
What is grammatically incorrect is using an accusative pronoun as a subject ('him and her have a dog'), although this can be met with dialectically; you can use a substantive possessive pronoun as a subject, though ('mine is a large scotch').
- 416
Thank you for the explanation.
"accusative pronoun" or "object pronoun", so that's what they're called, at least I know the terms/names right now.
I also asked this question in another sentence discussion :
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/28550860
You and she think. (Duolingo exercise sentence)
You and her think. (Suggested in discussions).
She and I are not close. (Duolingo exercise sentence)
Her and me are not close. (Suggested in discussions).
Me and her are not close. (Suggested in discussions).
I'm still wondering if the suggested sentences are correct.
I always thought that the suggested sentences, using accusative pronouns, are gramatically incorrect.
However, I always see these suggestions pop up in sentence discussions.
What do you think ?
The grammatically correct sentences are:
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You and she think
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She and I are not close
The others are not correct because you cannot use object pronouns such as "me" and "her" as the subject of a verb (although many people do since they stopped teaching grammar in schools).
The pronouns that can be subject of the verb are: I, you, he, she, it, we, you, they
The pronouns that can be object of the verb are: me, you, him, her, it, us, you, them
That is what the grammar books teach you, but in normal everyday English it is perfectly acceptable to many to use "me and her" rather than "she and I". I think that ought to be an accepted translation.
This is exactly what I'm thinking. I'm learning the language to talk with the people, and not with their Education Minister. Language evolves, and if the users think that it is now acceptable to use "me and her", "grammar" should adjust.
Wouldn't it be better if the sentence was said as "Dia dan aku tidak dekat"?
I wonder why we tend to say she first.. maybe it’s that ladies first stuff.
The rule is that the other person is always placed before the first person speaker in order to be polite, so "he and I" would also be preferred to "I and he".
So... we are not close literally (we are far away from each other), or metaphorically (we do not keep in touch)?
- 1348
'He and I' should be accepted (report it if it's not); 'him and I' is bad English.
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"Me and her/him are not close" should also be accepted, because it's more common in spoken English than "s/he and I", and also because in Indonesian the first-person pronoun precedes the third-person pronoun, so the translation flows more easily this way. "I and s/he" is not idiomatic English.
Unlike native speakers, people who learn English as a second language, if they speak it well, speak it properly. It is difficult enough to allow for all of the correct variations without having to include incorrect grammar. She/He and I is the correct form.
@Lockers001 I'm sorry you won't like my comment but I must tell you that your comment is very arrogant and just plain WRONG... "Me and her are close" is NOT incorrect grammar, and as @tsuj1g1r1 said it's actually more common than "I and she" (or "she and I"). - Happy downvoting!
Common use and correct English grammar are often quite different. You seem to be conflating the two.
Here is an explanation of the grammar applying to subject and object pronouns:
https://data.grammarbook.com/blog/pronouns/tis-i-or-tis-me/
You are correct in saying that many people say "me and her...." but you will not find any English grammar text that says it is grammatically correct. Please post a link if you think you have found one.
There is never any circumstance where "me and her" is correct English grammar! In English, always put yourself last. Also, in this sentence the pronouns are the subject of the verb and therefore should be "she and I" not "her and me"
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'She and I' is the answer I see above and is perfectly idiomatic speech; 'me and her' is non-standard and dialectical, and not something English-learners doing the reverse course ought to be taught.
The fact that we put 'I' second in English whereas it comes first in Indonesian is really not a difficult concept that is likely to confuse anyone. It is not necessary to try to mirror the Indonesian word-order in order to produce the best translation; we don't put verbs at the end of English sentences when translating Turkish or Hindi...
Nobody said it should be the "best translation", but it SHOULD be accepted as a correct translation
They need to ensure the correctness of grammar mostly because for Indonesian students who're learning English on duolingo and are presented with the same sentence ought not to be allowed "Me and her" as a correct answer, as the suggested translations will be used bilaterally.
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Agreed. One of the problems with classroom learning is that it often does not reflect the language spoken by people. There are many who would rather be right than happy. Grammatically correct English should be taught yes, but so should the structures in ordinary everyday use. The point of learning is, surely, to be able to understand and converse with ordinary people. Try getting around London when you cannot understand what the cab driver is telling you because his grammar is not correct...!
@boringtomi i cannot upvote you more than once but I gave you 2x5 linggots on your comments to put some weight on how correct you are
