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  5. "The travelers are on the spa…

"The travelers are on the space station."

Translation:tengchaHDaq chaHtaH lengwI'pu''e'.

August 31, 2018

11 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TARDISToni

Is the -'e' suffix necessary here? I know it's used to express sentences in the "X is Y" format, but it has not been used so far with stative verbs or adjectives (and that's how I personally have been distinguishing when and when not to use it). Since this sentence involves the pronoun-as-copula format, and we've only used this so far in "X is Y" format, I guess this is kind of a new sentence format for us now that we're learning prepositions.

August 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

It's not exactly "X is Y." It's more like "linking X with Y."

X {pronoun}
X is linked with {pronoun}

The "link" doesn't have to be identity. When X has a syntactic suffix on it, the link is describing the relationship between the pronoun and that syntactic noun.

Duj 'oH It is the ship
Identity: the ship is the it being identified.

DujDaq 'oH It is on the ship
Location: the ship is the location of the it.

Those are usually the only forms one sees. Theoretically, though, you could have

DujvaD 'oH It is for the ship.
Beneficiary: Whatever it is, it is intended for the ship.

Dujmo' 'oH It is because of the ship.
Cause: The it is somehow caused by the ship.

Dujvo' 'oH It is from the ship.
Ablation: The it has left the ship. This does not refer to the origin of the manufacture of the it, just its physical movement away from the ship.

Duj'e' 'oH
Topic: This one is trickier. I think it might mean that the it is in regards to the ship as a topic. The it has something to do with the ship, though what, exactly is not specified.

I wouldn't try using these last three. It's not clear that they really work.

When you want to link TWO nouns, you use
X {third-person pronoun} Y'e'.

Duj 'oH De'wI''e' The computer is the ship.
Identity: You are saying that the computer and the ship are the same thing.

DujDaq 'oH De'wI''e' The computer is on the ship.
Location: You're saying the computer's location is aboard the ship.

DujvaD 'oH De'wI''e' The computer is for the ship.
Beneficiary: The computer is probably going to be installed on the ship.

And again, the not-so-clear meanings could theoretically work. I won't list them all here. Although I'd avoid trying to use something like Duj'e' 'oH De'wI''e', because you've got two topics, and that seems really weird to me.

August 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

I have added a recap of pronoun-as-"to be" into the Tips & Notes for this Skill to make it a little more clear that Klingon treats this as the same kind of sentence.

August 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TARDISToni

That was very helpful, thank you. This was the first time I had ever run across the -e' topic marker in this format, and it was confusing. Having a bit of forewarning about this type of "new" syntactic sttucture in the Tips and Notes makes a big difference!

September 17, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Yes, it is required. Klingon seems to view this as still a pronoun-as-copula, even though identifying a location doesn't strictly match the definition of "copula" or the "X is Y" format. The fact that there is no actual verb here and the subject pronoun is pretending to be a verb is what triggers the requirement that an additional explicitly stated subject must be marked with -'e'.

August 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/king_nak

For me, the simplest way to know if a 'e' marker is required, is to remember that chaH is actually a pronoun. It can just act as a verb, and then it has an implicit subject attached.

Just try to add it in the translation, whenever you see such a pronoun: The travelers they are on the space station

You see that there are two subjects. That cannot be, and you cannot get rid of the they. So you need to make the actual subject the topic, by adding 'e'

Sentences like "SoHDaq Sum mara" has no pronoun-as-verb, but an actual verb, Sum. So no 'e' needed

November 18, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TARDISToni

The best I can determine here is that the -'e' topic marker is necessary whenever we have a personal pronoun acting as a copula, because the following sentences from this lesson have precisely the same structure, but no -'e' topic marker when a regular noun is the subject:

SoHDaq sum mara - "Mara is near you."

raS retlhDaq QamtaH SuvwI' - "A warrior is standing next to the table."

Good enough, in theory. However, I also saw this sentence in the lessons:

Qe' retlhDaq 'oHtaH vaS'a''e' "The Great Hall is next to the restaurant."

This is the same sentence structure as above, but for some reason it contains the 'oH pronoun, even though vaS'a' is the subject, thus necesstitating the -'e' topic marker, while the other two sentences don't. I can accept that the pronoun-as-copula makes the topic marker necessary, but I'm not sure how we are supposed to know whether and when the pronoun is necessary in such a sentence. (Maybe it was necessary in order to have something to attach -taH to?)

Also, in David's very long reply - which I admit I don't fully understand at present, I'll have to come back to it later - he uses this example:

DujDaq 'oH "it is on the ship"

Which has the same basic structure as the above sentences, even though it's a much simpler sentence, with a pronoun. And yet, still no -'e' on the end.

Probably it's something I'll just have to get used to, or possibly there are some subtleties I'm missing. I'm just trying to determine what the rules are. As I said, I think I get the theory, but it's not always clear in practice. Yet.

September 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Perhaps David's reply has already made it clear to you, but just in case, here's an explanation from another angle:

The best I can determine here is that the -'e' topic marker is necessary whenever we have a personal pronoun acting as a copula

I would change it to say, "whenever we have a personal pronoun acting as a copula and also an explicitly stated subject".

You ask about:

SoHDaq sum mara - "Mara is near you." (sic)
raS retlhDaq QamtaH SuvwI' - "A warrior is standing next to the table."

These appear to be copular in English, but use actual verbs and not personal pronouns acting like verbs so they do not require the -'e' suffix.

Qe' retlhDaq 'oHtaH vaS'a''e' "The Great Hall is next to the restaurant."
This is the same sentence structure as above, but for some reason it contains the 'oH pronoun, even though vaS'a' is the subject, thus necesstitating the -'e' topic marker, while the other two sentences don't.

Those previous sentences have actual verbs in them (Sum and Qam). Without the 'oH pronoun here, there would be no verb in this sentence. Every sentence needs a verb. Personal pronouns can act as the verb in a copular fashion as is demonstrated in this sentence. And when they do, that personal pronoun is doing double duty as both the verb and the subject, so theoretically you cannot also explicitly state the subject since it is already represented by a pronoun. There is a special rule that allows you to double up on the subject by marking the explicit subject with -'e'.

I can accept that the pronoun-as-copula makes the topic marker necessary, but I'm not sure how we are supposed to know whether and when the pronoun is necessary in such a sentence.

If you want a copula, but there's not an actual verb to do the job then you will use a "pronoun-as-copula" to do the job. This is particularly true when equating two nouns or simply stating the location of a noun.

DujDaq 'oH "it is on the ship"
Which has the same basic structure as the above sentences, even though it's a much simpler sentence, with a pronoun. And yet, still no -'e' on the end.

No second subject, so no need for -'e' to mark the second subject. 'oH is acting as both verb and subject - sentence complete! If you wanted to be explicit about what the "it" was, you would have to put the noun on the end and mark it with -'e'.

Please continue to ask questions.

September 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_myr_

What has helped me to understand this so far is the following:

  1. When you have a noun and you want to describe the noun as being something that is another noun, then you use the formulation with 'e' on the subject - e.g., vav ghaH torgh'e' = Torg is a/the father. toQDuj 'oH Duj'e' = The ship is a Bird of Prey.

  2. As elucidated by DavidTrimb3 above, this same rule works for describing the noun as being in a location: - e.g., Qo'noS'Daq ghaHtaH torgh'e' = Torg is on Kronos. And also if the noun is being "for" something: vIghro'wIjvaD 'oH Soj'e' = The food is for my cat.

  3. More simply put, whenever you want to describe a subject noun as being something (including somewhere) that is not an adjective (adjectival verb), you need to append 'e' to the subject. Here are some examples where you would not append 'e' or use the "to be" pronoun-verb: val torg = Torg is smart. Doy' HoD = The captain is tired. QaQqu' 'Iw HIqvam = This bloodwine is really good.

September 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

Those sentences do not have the same structure.

There are basic sentences, which take the general form object-verb-subject. Then there are "to be" sentences with the form noun-pronoun or noun-pronoun-topic'e'. These are not of the OVS form of basic sentences. They do not have verbs.

September 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TARDISToni

Thanks, everyone, for your patience in explaining and excellent examples! I think I have this structure down now, and I see my error in thinking my three "example" sentences were the same, which they aren't. It's just a little tricky when you run across this usage of -'e' for the first time with no warning. Hopefully, the addition to the Tips and Notes will help make it clearer for future Klingon learners!

September 17, 2018
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