https://www.duolingo.com/JeffDarby

Another Change to the French Course? 318 Crowns 10 minutes ago to 57 now?

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You keep messing with the six courses, including French. I am at Level 25 with over 40,000 points. In the last 10 minutes, you have added many new lessons and basically wiped out my progress over the last 3 years.

Leave well enough alone!

5 months ago

55 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/tonyroulstone

The new tree asks all sorts of trivial questions ans skills long past. It makes on feel one is wasting one's time rather than progressing. How could such a large and negative change be made without warning or choice?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ddmag
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I so much agree. Was at 220, then suddenly back to 74. Lousy system, but the worst part is they never tell us what this really means. Duolingo, smarten up! You NEED a Customer Service rep!

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hanspersson
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Oh no, my free course suddenly has more material in it!

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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Yeah. What would be so hard about giving us CHOICE about these changes. I have put so much effort into the course and for them to do this AGAIN is so disheartening.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

Interesting/Disturbing to see how you were migrated to the staff-developed French tree.

Level 0 for most skills? Yikes.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sonarun
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Yeah, this is a tough one for me. I finished the first French tree and was quite happy with my progress. Then a few months ago migrated to the larger tree, which was great! New challenges. Now again another new tree and I feel like I am back to the beginning. This time some skills are completely wiped out!

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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Oh! Finally - the new skills are there!

I love having the opportunity to learn more and possibly explore more facets of the language.

Really cool!

(Yes, my tree was largely golden, and now it looks a little wild, but what is a golden tree compared to more opportunities? On we go!)

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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The bad part is having all the new stuff mixed in with the old stuff, which makes effective revision so difficult until I've gone through all the skills that have a mixture of new stuff and old stuff. It's a giant waste of my time and I wish I'd never started on this website.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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You can test out. I just did it for a skill; really fast (and I am rather older ;-))

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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That doesn't work though, requires learning loads of new words all at once in order to test out all the skills that contain vocab I have already done.

So basically I have to abandon a load of stuff I've already done while I work through a load of new stuff, letting my knowledge of it slowly fade, which is a real waste of time and effort.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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Do you know the Duome site? https://duome.eu/heike333145/ (If you replace my name with your own one, you will see your own profile. It will always show the language that is currently active on Duolingo).

This morning, I had 342 crowns. Now I have 59 or something ...

In Duome, you can see the skills and their decay as they were in the old system. This will help you find a good sequence for reviewing your lessons in a meaningful sequence.

With regard to the new words within old skills, here's what I do: I test out of a skill level. If I test out successfully, fine.

If I'm not successful, then I do the first lesson of that skill level immediately. This sets a bookmark for me to keep working on that skill (due to the new material, or, previously, because I simply hadn't fully understood the stuff).

Then, after doing a few lessons within that skill level, feeling confident again, I test out again. And in many cases, this is successful because the things that had held me up weren't many.

This combines a good progress with a reasonable amount of repetition, I think.

Just as an example, as a suggestion. :-)

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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I use duome every day. It still doesn't fix the fact that I have nearly 100 skills of a mixture of new and old content. I can use Duome to help choose which ones to start with but that still leaves the vast majority of the course that I won't be able to effectively revise and keep my knowledge fresh.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tonyroulstone

Same here. Why are we going back to trivial lessons. Have they made a major mistake?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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No, this is just how they do updates on Duolingo unfortunately.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Remo_Magalhaes
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This update with no warnings and with no possibility to choose to keep going with the old tree is terrible!!! I am very upset and extremely disappointed with duolingo .

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Barb805508

I agree all my work just disappeared, now i have no idea where I am in this process. Also, why do I have to relearn Salut and bonjour again?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sarah229436

Totally agree - why have they done this?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AngeCI
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This is the fault of the Duolingo team who invents crown system which currently works so badly. This is not the fault of the French contributors.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fredrikke498889
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Is this something that just happens to a select few people? I still have the same amount of crowns as yesterday and nothing is new.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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They're not rolling it out to everyone at once. But this will almost certainly happen to everyone at some point.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Katycatz

Hi all! I apologize if you're seeing this post in a few spots. There are a few different threads so I want to respond wherever necessary.

To clarify, the new French tree still includes all the content from the previous tree. The change is that our language experts have added additional content to the beginning of the tree in order to provide better coverage of A1 CEFR (Common European Framework of Reference) content. Our plan is to continue to iterate on the course to improve its effectiveness. We do this incrementally by starting with the latest version of the course and continuously adding new material to improve our vocabulary and grammar coverage an help learners reach a high level of fluency based on our test results and a rigorous scientific framework. Volunteers who helped create course content have been and will still be involved in improving the courses. In fact, much of their content will also still be used in the tree. As with all Duolingo courses, we are constantly testing and improving our content as we grow. Please rest assured knowing that our main objective is (and always will be) to teach people languages with the best possible content. This sometimes means we have to iterate on contributors' work by adding insights from our own language learning experts. It's collaborative. And while we have gotten (much needed and much appreciated) help from our volunteers, we do also rely on our own staff and their expertise as well. We couldn't do it without everyone involved and while we made the mistake of not announcing these course changes, we are grateful to everyone who has played part in this effort to improve Duolingo and the French course by offering a deeper and richer learning experience.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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Thank you very much for your thorough reply, KatyCatz! :-)

I think it's a great idea to align the course content with the CEFR requirements. This will give us as learners a good basis that is also recognized outside of Duolingo.

The way of proceeding in this case, however, looks improvable to me. When I got the new course a few days ago, I was thrilled because I had hoped to get the new course since May. Only after reading in the discussions here did I realize that this was not the new course, but a new-new course, and that (some of) those who had got the new course in May now also had got the new version. And I must say, much as I wanted the new course, in their place I would also be annoyed. Change is a great idea, but there should also be some amount of consistency, and a radical change only four months after the previous change had been established looks very hasty to me.

There was also the problem that nobody expected a new new version. So I think in future cases it would be great if there could be more timeliness and transparency in the communication.

This sometimes means we have to iterate on contributors' work by adding insights from our own language learning experts. It's collaborative. And while we have gotten (much needed and much appreciated) help from our volunteers, we do also rely on our own staff and their expertise as well. We couldn't do it without everyone involved and while we made the mistake of not announcing these course changes, we are grateful to everyone who has played part in this effort to improve Duolingo and the French course by offering a deeper and richer learning experience.

Thank you in particular for this clarification. When I seemed to understand from the discussion so far that the volunteers were not involved in the further development of the tree, I felt very sad because I thought of my own experience at work:

I have maintained a database that I developed myself about 30 years ago, and that provides information to my colleagues and me. Every part of this database and its content has been thoroughly thought through by me; there is a reason for (almost...) everything that's in that database and how it is structured.

Now I imagine my supervisors saying: We will take this database away from Heike; someone else shall take care of it in the future. This would be really catastrophic for me.

Fortunately, this has never happened to me. And I'm glad to understand that something similar doesn't happen here. So I will continue re-earning my French Duo Owl. :-)

Many thanks!

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

Thank you for the update.

I hope the DL team begins to grapple with organizing their communication.

When 'Crowns' was rolled out, the tag line was that once we earned a crown... it never went away. Obviously, that was inaccurate.

Reading your note, I'm disappointed that the 96-skill French tree was rolled out w/out addressing the "A1 CEFR" content. The new 119-skill French tree had to be under development at roughly the same time. Why is there no coordination?

And now the rollout of the 119-skill tree, with what appears to be no coms plan.

The overall/technical DL product is really very good.

I wish I could say the same for user experience.

[Edit: fixed a typo re: #skills in tree, changed from "overall" to "overall/technical"]

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/barbie21144

I appreciate the update. When there is a big change like this I wish that DL would send out an email so that everyone isn't surprised and wonder why it happened. DL should be more transparent about this and let the users know directly instead of us having to scour forums and ask questions, hoping the Great & Powerful Owl will answer us.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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@Myra @KatyCatz

I truly wish username tagging would work on the discussion forum software! ;)

I have also posted this comment here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29011235$comment_id=29056621

Quote Myra https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29011235$comment_id=29023889: It's the result of Duolingo's focused strategy to include more CEFR (Common European Framework of Reference) concepts throughout the course

Users always wonder what language level they can reach when they complete a Duolingo tree (depending on tree length, vocabulary / lexemes size, complexity of taught sentences, etc.).

The consense of estimate across forum members, what I have seen so far in posts given, is roughly A1-A2 (there will be differences for reading vs writing vs listening vs speaking), maybe low B1 in some parts.

Am I right for those more old established and bigger courses like Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese,...), German, English, Norwegian,...?

Quote KatyCatz https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29010358$comment_id=29042474: The change is that our language experts have added additional content to the beginning of the tree in order to provide better coverage of A1 CEFR content.

You know, many of your users are trying to reach higher levels than A1-A2.

Quote CatyCatz: Our plan is to continue to iterate on the course to improve its effectiveness

Are there any future plans for A2 CEFR content and some parts of (low to mid) B1 as your team started with A1 CEFR additions?

Sorry, I do not perfectly understand your English text as I am a German native speaker.

..(...)..

Does each future tree update mean that old (completed) skills and crowns will always RESET to L0 or will skills just be added (the problem always is the NEW vocabulary and mapped sentences for existing skill names!)?

Maybe it is finally time for sub-modules to split between groups and filter multiple skills to avoid radical tree changes for half-finished/finished trees?!

Why can't we select e.g 2-3 parallel existing versions of complexity of a language course?

At 119 skills already there will probably be a pratical end what a user can handle in a single tree so he/she can practically still finish it within ~1 year
(and I had read German forum posts that not several users could not complete within a ~1,5 years period).

Is there any chance for your staff team to design new trees in mind of not resetting crown levels
(like I experienced for many skills in my updated EN-PT tree designed by contributors which stayed at crowns L1-L3)?

Best regards / Viele Grüße

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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basically wiped out my progress over the last 3 years.

Fortunately, this is not quite accurate. Your progress is your knowledge of the French language, and this cannot be wiped out.

The XP, crowns, levels are just means (like "crutches") to make this progress visible to us. They are not the progress.

I find this so important because we can discourage ourselves by focusing our attention on these visuals that are just that: Visuals! Instead, I think, we should focus on what we've learned (and that's a lot, with a golden tree!), and be happy that now we can learn even more.

All my best wishes to you! :-)

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/waikong
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I totally disagree with this, as the whole incentive part of duolingo was the xp/gamification. What you are saying is that this part of duolingo doesn't matter. If so, just dump the XP, crown, etc...

The problem beyond this is that you lost progress on what is already 'learned'. Anyway, I think I'm going to give up duolingo altogether and just go with something else.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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This is what I do: I have my "Sunday Crowns" overview for all my languages. Every Sunday, I enter all the crowns I've earned in the course of the week, and I enjoy the progress I've made in my various languages, and think about which language constellations I'd like to focus on in the following week.

Now: The French tree has been restructured; I've "lost" around 300 crowns.

What does that mean for my Sunday-Crown-Bookkeeping? I make a break and start anew: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EYtzeKiUa4Fy2dbu8frtLV1vqkGHIyBs4tjkM9uU-F8/edit?usp=sharing

Where my overall crown expectations were around 1100 before this French-tree restructuring, they are now 823. Any increase beyond 823 crowns will make me happy next Sunday.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

@Heike333145:

Given your experience with the previous trees ... how much new vocabulary are you encountering in the staff-developed tree?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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The change is vast. The previous tree version had about 2800 'lexemes', the new one has 3816.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

Tnx. I wonder how that's distributed across the individual skills. (Obviously a rhetorical question.)

The "tree migration" process/challenge fascinates me. I have empathy for the DL team because it's more complex than meets the eye.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SquirlRat
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Looking at my Duome page might give you an idea. I had completed 79% of the course vocab prior to this update. https://duome.eu/squirlrat/progress

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

@SquirlRat:

Yup. Looking at yours, Heike333145's, and JeffDarby's Duome info makes me wonder if migrating from the Incubator tree to the Staff tree has unique complications.

All very interesting.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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Oh, I can't report on that yet -- I got the new tree only an hour or so ago.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

@Heike333145

If you'd be willing, let me know in a few days. I'm very curious. Tnx.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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Sure: I've earned 6 crowns, and now I feel mature enough for giving an intermediate report.

The number of words that have been added has already been mentioned by SquirlRat.

My impression so far: So far, I haven't encountered new words (if I remember correctly, that is; I learned French many, many years ago, and sometimes I don't know what I know from Duolingo), but I feel that the sentences are more varied already at crown level 1.

I'm doing crown level 1 because my first goal is to reconquer my owlilein. (German diminutive form ;-)).

I don't think that the sentences are as repetitive as you would think when you know that you have to go through your old skills again. And I think this is a very good development.

Edit-- fun fact: Within a sea of purple and blue, my "Food" skill is solid golden. What does that tell about me??? blush lol

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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I came from the 78 skills tree; I didn't have the update that was started around April/May (for others; sniff ;-))

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

@Heike333145: Did you migrate from the 78 or 96 skill tree?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

@Heike333145: Interesting. I suspect that folks going from the 96 to the 119 are going to have a different experience.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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I would like to add that test out works OK. I failed twice -- once very early in the tree, with "Greetings", and far down in the tree, the last "Infinitives".

I repaired the "Greetings" by doing the first lesson and then repeating the test-out. It was just some weird coincidence. The "Infinitives" skill needs some rework indeed; I confuse the forms of "commencer à faire qc", "arrêter de fair qc" etc. This is really something that I should focus on to do it properly.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145
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After having done something very specific, I think we should really relax with regard to this change:

I have "grey" skills at the end of my tree. I did the last two "violet" (crown level 0) skills of the tree, and the grey skills openend!

This means that we don't have to do old stuff if we don't want to. We can complete the tree, and go to previous lessons whenever we want to.

Yes, in these "old skills" there may now be some new words and structures, which will perhaps prevent us from testing out. But this is not bad: It is a new challenge in each of the skills!

I remember very well that people kept complaining about having to repeat the same stuff over and over again (and I shared this sentiment and was happy when "test-out" was introduced).

Now we get some new stuff to learn and integrate into our knowledge, and we complain again?? Nope, I don't. I'm very happy with this new, expanded tree.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tbcenglish
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Interesting. Does any of this explain why I earned 800+ XP last week according to the site but my e:Mail weekly update message only gives me credit for <600 ? I realize all of this is just the "game" aspect and the actual learning is more important but it is discouraging to work so hard and expect to see 800+ and have 200+ fewer credits. Why do they bother granting XPs and Crowns if they aren't going to keep an accurate count of them?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/W-Ruggles-Wolfe

More likely your XP discrepancy is a "time zone" thing. I.e., website and email using different week-ending points (UTC v your local time).

I have this issue. Makes me smile every time.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tbcenglish
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A possibility I hadn't considered. Thanks

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ddmag
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I think many of us feel the same way. The most maddening part is that there's only this forum to discuss it, and NO CUSTOMER SERVICE at all.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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Quote Usagiboy7:
There is the reverse course.
I am always curious if people plan to do reverse and ladder trees
Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29165506

Starting a course from French on the web portal = writing / translating into French (on the right hand side) on a higher (better) ratio even on lower crown L0-L2 (L3) levels

(My) Tips and audio tricks for reverse and laddering trees

How do you do a reverse tree / The reverse tree helps - how to be able to listen to the target language audio:
- https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29266026$comment_id=29267079
- https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29262469$comment_id=29266698

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fromageroger

i hope you got it

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/barbaraGunnell

Progress really being hampered by the poor audio .. the nasal woman voice is just impossible.. if you slow it down you get wrong pronunciations

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hanspersson
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ITYM Thanks for a lot of new content to complement all the stuff I have already learned!

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ddmag
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I agree. And it sure would be nice if there was such a thing as Customer Service at Duolingo, instead of having to depend on forums.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tbcenglish
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A possibility I hadn't considered. Thanks

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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Good news!

SHOF Duome.eu French tips and notes

65 (-1) cached (html formatted) grammar notes for your English->French tree:

https://duome.eu/tips/en/fr

[NEW FEATURE] Duome.eu shows "tips and notes" for multiple language trees incl. not active courses: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29385314

4 months ago
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