https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidNixon13

New French tree! Ouch!

I was amazed to see this new French tree! It looks like I have gone back so far. I retain hardly any credit for all the work I have done in the last five years.

I have 40049 XP (so I've worked hard!) but only 57 crowns!

I do ten languages every day.

My weakest language of those ten is Polish: in Polish I have only 7363 XP but I have 101 crowns.

This isn't a complaint - I love Duolingo!

I'm just in shock.

I'm at crown level ZERO in about 80% of the skills! Hahaha! I've been learning the language since 1964 and having conversation in French for the last forty years!

I suspect that the new tree will prove itself to offer greater encouragement to new students. Well done!

But I feel as if I have been let down.

(End of moan)

September 25, 2018

124 Comments


[deactivated user]

    I am rather baffled by this new wave of posts about a new French tree. Is this the volunteer team 3.0 tree or the Duolingo staff's tree? If your tree has units called "City" and "City 2" you have the staff's tree (I'm fairly certain) and it seems to be quite a deviation from the volunteer-made tree that you were working on before, hence why your progress dropped so low.

    If you have the 3.0 volunteer-made tree, you should have a skill called "Gallicism" as the fourth skill in your tree. This is the tree I got--mine was switched over a few months ago and the change between the 2.0 and 3.0 wasn't so dramatic.

    I think what people whose trees changed today got is the staff tree, which many of us suspect was created as part of Duolingo's partnership with Pearson, and you poor folks are being force to be unpaid QA testers for it. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. But if you did get the staff tree, my condolences. From what I hear of it, it's not as good as the volunteer tree and has many errors, and Duolingo will expect you to spend your learning time reporting errors instead of learning. And frankly, that sucks. A/B testing like this has always been a part of Duolingo, unfortunately, and we users don't get to opt out of it. If you are very unhappy or discouraged, I recommend looking into other resources. Don't let Duolingo's nonsense ruin learning French for you. I had to do that a number of years ago when Duolingo was A/B testing a feature that made using Duolingo miserable for me and I stopped using Duolingo for a few months until they scrapped it.

    September 25, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andrew975994

    This is in fact what happened to me. It's made continuing with Duolingo pointless, because goals are important and they help you continue, but if your progress towards your goals evaporates so that you can be a test subject, what's the point!

    Time to explore new places to learn French. Too bad, I really enjoyed this site.

    September 26, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

    @Andrew

    Quote: Time to explore new places to learn French.

    https://www.lawlessfrench.com
    https://french.kwiziq.com/

    Try www.lingvist.com.

    Their French course has a little bit over ~5000 words (in full context with a given sentence); you can learn up to 3000 words with "Lingvist Free" and the rest with "Lingvist Unlimited".

    September 26, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

    Yes, it is the City and City 2 version that landed on me. I actually speak French well enough to make myself understood, with a few grammar errors and some hesitancy, Now I am repeating "Oui" and "Salut". The greatest complexity is "Tres bien, et toi." Pointless,

    September 26, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/myra

    Thanks for this feedback! I want to assure you that the new tree is not part of the Pearson partnership. It's the result of Duolingo's focused strategy to include more CEFR (Common European Framework of Reference) concepts throughout the course. You'll see a lot of familiar content from the previous course plus additional content which broadens the coverage for learners of all levels.

    We know that getting a new course can be jarring. With the additional content it may look like less of your course is "complete" but what it really means, is that we've added more content to learn. I can empathize with everyone who reports feeling demotivated by the change and it's definitely something we'd like to improve. Having more material to learn should feel like a good thing. We're working on it!

    September 26, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KJC367

    I have been doing French on DL for a couple of years and made it to level 25. I had almost finished getting all skills to gold and now, I have most of them at 0. I have to start over. I'm very close to just giving up. The "lesson" i had to test out of had several mistakes in it. That is just wasting my time. What a shame. I won't be recommending DL to anybody anymore.

    September 27, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/effyleven

    Yeah. I just had my 78 skill tree replaced with one twice as big and most of it at zero.

    This is the second time it has happened to me, but never again! I am now ditching Duolingo as I find this treatment of my efforts grossly abusive.

    March 28, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SquirlRat

    Work on giving us the choice, work on giving us our old tree back if we want it. After 3 years of effort on this website I don't want to not be able to efficiently revise the stuff I have already learned for weeks (months?) while wading through the basics again. It's a total waste of the time I have put in here.

    September 26, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MishaLavrov

    Why not offer a second placement test whenever the tree changes dramatically, similar to the one offered when you first begin a tree? This seems like it would address many of the concerns, letting everyone go straight to the added skills that are definitely new for them.

    September 26, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

    Great idea!

    September 27, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nickmarcelli

    The problem is that none of us have any desire to go back to learning Level 1 lessons when we're onto more advanced topics because you made arbitrary changes.

    September 26, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EdP2Pp

    Hi Nick, All is not lost. If you challenge the lessons on the tree you should be able to make back the majority of what you lost in a few days. That is exactly what I did. It has been two days since the changeover, and 9090 xp later more than one-third of my tree is level two or higher and the balance is at level one. I have my owl back, and I am now finding it more difficult to challenge the level one lessons. It sounds like a lot of work, but you gain a lot of xp each time you succeed in a challenge. FYI, this equates to about 220 crowns. I used to have well over 300, so this upgrade appears to be an improvement. An important tip, if you are going to try this, then, I recommend that you do same on the European site, you will understand the benefit in doing so immediately.

    Good luck and happy learning!

    September 27, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/waikong

    2 days and 9090xp ? I'm seriously impressed and astounded that you can do 4500+ xp in a day. The most I've every done is 600+, most days I can do 60-100. Can I asked how long did he take to do 4500+ xp in day? I'm not sure most of us have the time to hit even 500xp consistently every day.

    September 27, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EdP2Pp

    I recently completed something that consumed the majority of my free time, so I was bored. I turned to Duolingo as a way to suppress boredom. Yesterday, I eclipsed 5000 xp In about 3 or 4 hours. Today, 1000 xp in about 1.5 hours. And the first day 3000 xp in about 3 or 4 hours. Why the discrepancy? Typically, a successful level 1 challenge = 50 xp, 2 = 50, 3 = 100 and 4 = 150 and level 5 = 250 xp. So yesterday, I focused more on challenging the higher levels as I had addressed all the level 0 lessons the first day.

    I have eclipsed 10,000 xp now, not bad for 3 days and a handful of hours that might have otherwise been wasted.

    September 27, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EdP2Pp

    So far, I found two level 2 lessons challenging in skipping to level 3. The difficulty increases as you move down the tree, but if you address the lessons in order you can easily navigate the lessons one to the next. I should end up with another 1000 xp today; thus far, I have eclipsed 11,000 xp in four short days of learning. I am going to shoot for 15k by Sunday just for grins. Not a big deal though, I encourage others to do the same. See if you can beat my xp total = this Sunday (in two days) over the course of next week. As an incentive, I will award the first three persons to do so 100 lingots each. I am betting on your success. Good luck.

    Update: to Sunday afternoon 16,000 xp earned in six days ... stopping now.

    September 28, 2018

    [deactivated user]

      It seems to me that you (the collective you, not you personally) are so desperate to get Duolingo "IPO ready" that you have lost touch with the users. The effect of this change on the average user was entirely predictable to everyone but Duolingo, apparently. Or maybe you did expect this reaction but figured that the minority of users who are upset enough to leave Duolingo are disposable. Most users aren't paying for a subscription, after all. They add no value to the company, even if they spend hours every day helping other users on your forums.

      I have already requested account deletion because I feel like you just set six months of homework on fire and I've only got a few pages left. I don't ever want to experience that feeling again and I certainly don't trust Duolingo not to do it again.

      Thankfully I don't have a learning void in my life because I've been trialling Kwiziq for a few weeks (it's why my Duolingo daily XP recently dropped from approx. 1000xp to 100xp). What you have done here is give me the kick up the backside I needed to buy a Kwiziq subscription. £103.55 just went off my credit card for the year. That money could have been Duolingo's if the Plus subscription offered anything of value.

      God I'd feel even more ill today if I'd already paid $83.88 for a year of Duolingo Plus.

      September 26, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

      The effect of this change on the average user was entirely predictable to everyone but Duolingo, apparently.
      Or maybe you did expect this reaction but figured that the minority of users who are upset enough to leave Duolingo are disposable.

      They surely have made former experiences with the EN-Spanish tree (113 skills, 520 lessons) migration and user rants.

      Looks like they are just ignoring all past experiences and user feedback about ~58 crown L0 EN-SP skills.

      Their old "update tree migration and skill conversion code" (pre crown era) is clearly not 100% ready for their April 2018 "crown update" (old "missing_lessons" and "num_missing" variables) and has probably not been touched very much in 2017 + 2018.
      Otherwise this code wouldn't straight RESET so many skills to L0, especially when they are on L2-L5.

      IMHO this is the problem when you rush out new half-baked code / (crown) concepts which is/are not 100% compatible with old "tree update/conversion" code.

      How the tree update went for my EN-PT tree in June 2018

      Interestingly this did not happen to many of my EN-PT skills when I got the update in June 2018 when I compare it to EN-SP reports.

      Most of my old skills thankfully stayed at the current crown level despite of some resetted lesson/lexemes variables because of skill conversions.

      Of course I had to re-learn those newly added grammar skills which had been introduced (91-69 = 22 "new" skills).

      Looks like the Portuguese contributor team got it better working in the Incubator to avoid a lot of mess :-)

      September 27, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

      @StinkyToy

      I have already requested account deletion because I feel like you just set six months of homework on fire and I've only got a few pages left.

      Have you been before on the A/B tree3 with 96 skills or the stable tree2 with 78 skills (which you could easily migrate to within an instant, see my other comment!)?

      September 27, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

      @Myra

      Hello Myra,

      we appreciate your feedback.
      Thanks for sharing your insides with us!

      May I invite you and the rest of your team to comment on some questions about tree4 (missing) "tips and notes" for the web portal:

      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29027127$comment_id=29056280

      More questions (best would be to create 1-2 dedicated new sticky threads by admins which can be up-voted and linked from all other French threads):

      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29010358$comment_id=29049551

      September 29, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MinhTranDo

      @Thomas.Heiss They seemed to have put the Tips and Notes of tree 4 to the web portal. When I logged in to my other account (currently having tree 4) on the web platform, every lessons has a Tips and Notes, like the mobile platform. And btw, as I progressed with my tree 2, I realized that the tree 4 version is really something designed JUST for A1. Its creators have removed many 'difficult' grammar skills which I believe to be at the A2 level, such as Past Subjunctive, Conditionals, Passive Voice,... This should be considered as a side effect of doubling the number of words. Also there are some strange lessons like "Grammar" (?, I wonder what is in that lesson). The tips and notes are still helpful, but learners have to pick up grammar piece by piece. And there's no way to access the tree 3 now :(

      November 23, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

      @Myra @KatyCatz

      I truly wish username tagging would work on the discussion forum software! ;)

      I have also posted my comment here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29010358$comment_id=29056661

      Quote Myra: It's the result of Duolingo's focused strategy to include more CEFR (Common European Framework of Reference) concepts throughout the course

      Users always wonder what language level they can reach when they complete a Duolingo tree (depending on tree length, vocabulary / lexemes size, complexity of taught sentences, etc.).

      The consense of estimate across forum members, what I have seen so far in posts given, is roughly A1-A2, maybe low B1 in some parts.

      Am I right for those more old established and bigger courses like Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese,...), German, Norwegian,...?

      Quote KatyCatz https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29010358$comment_id=29042474: The change is that our language experts have added additional content to the beginning of the tree in order to provide better coverage of A1 CEFR content.

      You know, many of your users are trying to reach higher levels than A1-A2.

      Quote CatyCatz: Our plan is to continue to iterate on the course to improve its effectiveness

      Are there any future plans for A2 CEFR content and some parts of (low to mid) B1 as your team started with A1 CEFR additions?

      ..(...)..

      Does each future tree update mean that old (completed) skills and crowns will always RESET to L0 or will skills just be added (the problem always is the NEW vocabulary and mapped sentences for existing skill names!)?

      Maybe it is finally time for sub-modules to split between groups and filter multiple skills to avoid radical tree changes for half-finished/finished trees?!

      Why can't we select e.g 2-3 parallel existing versions of complexity of a language course?

      At 119 skills already there will probably be a pratical end what a user can handle in a single tree so he/she can practically still finish it within ~1 year
      (and I had read German forum posts that not several users could not complete within a ~1,5 years period).

      Is there any chance for your staff team to design new trees in mind of not resetting crown levels
      (like I experienced for many skills in my updated EN-PT tree designed by contributors which stayed at crowns L1-L2/L3)?

      Best regards / Viele Grüße

      September 29, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ronkisimo

      thankfully I have not been hit. I loath pearson. what a bad company.

      September 26, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Termascur

      I don't have any skills called Gallicism or City on my tree, so I guess mine hasn't been updated yet.

      September 26, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Randybvain

      Neither has mine.

      September 27, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Cecile418225

      I have the skill "Gallicism" on my tree. Is this the 3. tree? How do I stay on this tree?

      September 26, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SquirlRat

      You are on tree3. Unless Duolingo decide to stop treating their users like this you will be migrated to tree4 at some point. Other than forcing yourself back to tree2 there is nothing you as a user can do to prevent this :(

      September 28, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

      @CadetheBruce

      Quote: From what I hear of it, it's not as good as the volunteer tree and has many errors, and Duolingo will expect you to spend your learning time reporting errors instead of learning

      I am not testing the staff's tree4, but here is a thread talking about the newest version: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/28295420/Newer-French-Tree

      September 26, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/7.J.7

      Well, first, sorry if this posts twice. I just posted a response, but it seems to have evaported, so I'm trying again.

      I have "City" and "City 2" and have never had "Gallicism". But my tree has always looked like that, since the day I started. So I'm confused now.

      I have been reading about this update for quite a while now, and I keep waiting and waiting for mine to change. I assumed, until now, that the update was still slowly rolling out to all users, and mine would change eventually. Now I feel more like....like I already have the tree, and have always had the tree, that others are now getting.

      But, why would that be?

      I don't know. Maybe I'm mis-understanding this whole thing. I wish I knew what was going on.

      April 17, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Carmen807459

      Your Duome profile shows that you started Duolingo four months ago. Around that time, all new accounts received the latest tree.

      April 17, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/7.J.7

      Ah, I wondered if this had something to do with me starting Duolingo not too long ago.

      The reason I was unsure about if it had to do with when I started Duolingo is that I saw a lot of people, starting this April, saying that their tree had just changed over.

      I think I finally understand what is going on here - I already had the "new" tree, so that's why mine isn't changing over.

      Thanks for helping me understand.

      April 18, 2019

      [deactivated user]

        If this happens to me, I'm deleting my account.

        Any learning organisation that thinks it's OK to wipe out months of progress on a whim is off it's trolley. This represents not just a lack of foresight, but a complete lack of consideration for the end user.

        At the very least, students should have the option to retain the tree they're on, or be provided with a set notice period to complete it (3-6 months seems reasonable) before migration is forced. It shouldn't just happen out of the blue.

        I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that if I wake up one day soon and find that most of my progress has been wiped, I will be absolutely devastated, I will never forgive Duolingo and I will badmouth them on every other language site I use. That would be quite something considering I have until now been recommending them above all the competition.

        September 26, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SquirlRat

        "I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that if I wake up one day soon and find that most of my progress has been wiped, I will be absolutely devastated, I will never forgive Duolingo and I will badmouth them on every other language site I use." basically the point I am at. I'm not exaggerating when I say I nearly cried yesterday.

        September 26, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/calebfh19

        Same here. Absolutely guttered.

        September 26, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ichigotchi

        Same. It'd only been about six months or so since my tree got reset. I'd worked to get all the skills back to level 1, only for it to be reset again. It's like spending months on a coursework project only for your teacher to tell you that the assignment has changed and you have to start all over again.

        This combined with the moronic crown system has put me off duo big time. I had a 600 day streak, which I deliberately let die because I just can't trust duo to not pull these backwards moves anymore. I'm only using duo now because of my French and Japanese club members. I'm not sure how long this will keep me on the site though.

        November 21, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

        @StinkyToy

        If this happens to me, I'm deleting my account.

        I guess the system has read your comment and has now decided to FORCE you into the third newest tree4 from staff ;)

        Congratulations, you tree has already been migrated: https://www.duome.eu/StinkyToy/progress

        At the very least, students should have the option to retain the tree they're on

        Not only this, but students should be able to select which one of the two A/B French trees they want to get:

        • tree3 from contributors: Probably more stable because it has been launched 5 months ago and is has MANY available (html formatted) "tips and notes" on the web portal. This is just great for people exclusively using the web portal

        • newest tree4 (or how you call it) from staff: Mobile app users (like IOS) are happy that they finally get a course with available "mobile grammar notes" for they mobile device

        or be provided with a set notice period to complete it (3-6 months seems reasonable) before migration is forced. It shouldn't just happen out of the blue.

        Their system definitely supports something like this (I have not seen it for tree updates).

        Actually this is what happened to me around February/March 2018 with the "crown update":

        A popup message at the top of the "Home" page asking me if I want to enroll into crowns A/B test.
        I declined this offer but was FORCED in April 2018 shortly later - like every other user - to be in their new crown system.

        ..(...)..

        If you were before on the old stable French tree with 78 skills, you can easily migrate back to it within an instant by registering your current account as a teacher at http://schools.duolingo.com by creating an empty classroom (e.g EN-FR).

        Your previous process on the old (stable) tree2 is not being erased!!

        If you have been on the A/B tested tree3 (96 skills) from contributors from ~5 months ago https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/26726755/The-new-French-tree-is-here-under-A-B-test I have not so good news (I am still on this A/B tree and I hope I do not get migrated over to tree4):

        Registering teacher (e.g creating empty classrooms) or student (progress sharing) accounts at http://schools.duolingo.com are NOT compatible with A/B tested trees like French tree3.

        If you sign up, you will not be migrated back to this tree with 96 skills, but to the old / stable tree with 78 skills.

        Side effect: You won't get ANY A/B tree (from other languages) anymore as long as you are registered as a teacher/student!

        I have not read anywhere, that the French tree3 is final yet, so it is still being A/B tested and not compatible with classrooms!

        At least I was not migrated over from contributor tree3 to staff tree4, so there is hope that the A/B experiment only happens for old/stable tree2 users?!???

        September 26, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SquirlRat

        I was migrated over from tree3, so unfortunately it'll happen to us all unless duo staff start listening to their userbase.

        September 26, 2018

        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

        @SquirlRat

        I am sorry to hear that.
        Thanks for your confirmation.

        I do not think that tree4 from staff makes too much sense for people using the web portal (desktop) as they are missing AFAIFK the (html formatted) "tips and notes".

        September 27, 2018

        [deactivated user]

          I guess the system has read your comment and has now decided to FORCE you into the third newest tree4 from staff ;)

          Right. I'm out of here. ❤❤❤❤ you Duolingo.

          September 26, 2018

          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesTPhillips

          Totally agree, it's an incredibly coarse minded and thoughtless act to inflict upon customers who have put months of hard work into achieving these goals.

          Imagine if you logged into your Facebook account and there was a message waiting: "we've decided to randomly include you in a beta test for a new Facebook. Most of your posts and photos have been deleted and now you'll have to start again." You might think "well that's totally different, those photos represent your life." Well so do your DuoLingo achievements! Your work on the tree represents hours and hours of your life. To storm into someone's account, throw it all away and expect them to say "hey, thanks!" is just outrageous.

          But this is the culture now. Broad, clumsy brush strokes without any thought as to how they might affect people. No respect for each other. Minimal thought. Drives me nuts.

          September 26, 2018

          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Simone716543

          Yes, I still have my xp points. I was working very hard to get all of my levels through the third tree. Now, almost all of my levels are at 0, so it DOES feel like starting over. I'm heartbroken by this....I have paid for PLUS because I wanted to support their objectives & felt good because I was paying for a service I really enjoyed using every day (am at 811 days). Completing areas & levels was motivating for me. Having to basically "start over" is the exact opposite of motivating. Pretty angry about this. I don't have Facebook, but the way you explained it here really speaks to me. Thoughtless, deflating, demotivating.

          September 27, 2018

          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/garpike

          At the very least, students should have the option to retain the tree they're on, or be provided with a set notice period to complete it (3-6 months seems reasonable) before migration is forced. It shouldn't just happen out of the blue.

          Much as I sympathise with this viewpoint from the perspective of an individual, DL uses A/B-tests (of ever-increasing scope) to determine whether a new tree leads to improved learning outcomes compared to the old one, and such tests would be worthless if users were given the choice to opt in or out of them—you cannot run a fair test without using a random sample, and a self-selecting sample is not random.

          I'm afraid that, unless DL's metrics suggest that the new tree is worse than the old one (which has never happened, to my knowledge), it is inevitable that you will get the new one at some point.

          September 26, 2018

          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SquirlRat

          I suspect that DL's metrics only care about the amount of time people spend on the site for ad revenue. As long as they keep things changing enough that people keep grinding away on the site without going too far and making people leave, that'll work out quite nicely for them. Doesn't make for a good learning experience for the users though.

          September 26, 2018

          [deactivated user]

            I don't think anybody would mind being switched to a new tree "at some point," provided there was a fair period of notice or warning prior to that point.

            If Duolingo cannot run fair tests without using truly random samples, then why do Duolingo school classrooms, teacher and student accounts get the luxury of not having to worry about this? Most of them are using free accounts too, so it's not like they are paying for the privilege.

            The problem for most people is not so much being switched to a new tree (which I have experienced before) but having so much progressed wiped. That is completely unacceptable.

            Nobody should have to spend weeks or months repeating skills with which they are already familiar in order to unlock skills they were planning on starting in the next few days.

            It is absolutely appalling to set people back in this way. To erase so much history. From an ethical standpoint, it is completely and utterly and obviously wrong and it is an appalling way to treat loyal users.

            September 26, 2018

            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/garpike

            This is a problem with gamifying a learning system—to improve the system you have to change the rules of the game, and if you care more about the game than the outcome, you will feel cheated. And the success and popularity of DL is intimately bound up with making people care about the game.

            The solution is to stop caring so much about the game—it is a succession of meaningless baubles designed to be habit-forming (and thus help knowledge acquisition). But these things are not important in and of themselves. You do not suddenly know less French because you have lost your owl or have fewer crown levels!

            Completing the course really does not matter; getting XP or flag or crown level does not matter; what matters is what you know now in French compared with what you knew previous to doing the course. If you think DL has taught you nothing and wasted your time, then by all means badmouth the whole system. If not, consider the worthwhile things you have gained versus the worthless things that have been taken away.

            If Duolingo cannot run fair tests without using truly random samples, then why do Duolingo school classrooms, teacher and student accounts get the luxury of not having to worry about this?

            I don't know, but if this is the case, why don't you just create a classroom? It's free and you don't have to prove you're a teacher or a school. It might even reset your tree back to the old one and regain you your progress.

            September 26, 2018

            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tachy90

            This is a good post and a healthy bit of perspective.

            That said, if the gamifying didn't matter to me at all, i wouldn't be using Duo, i'd stick to more traditional language courses. Caring about streak/crowns/levels is a way to keep you motivated, that's kinda the point.

            September 26, 2018

            [deactivated user]

              It's a terrible post, quite patronising and offensive actually, because it's making all kinds of incorrect assumptions about why I personally use Duolingo.

              I am not here to collect XP, flags, levels, etc. I make a big effort to keep my friends list empty because I don't want to get dragged into leaderboard races.

              If this is happening because of the emphasis on gamified learning then it is certainly outrageous, but spare me the lectures which don't apply to me at all.

              September 26, 2018

              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/blutach

              True - but now I cannot access parts of the tree I could before. I’ve been on 3 years straight. Finished the tree ages ago and now can’t revise certain areas because I’m deemed to be a newbie.

              When we went to crowns, I got about 250. Now, I’m on 50.

              As a point of reference, my wife, who knows little French, is on a 43 crown level.

              I shouldn’t be unable to access material which I finished years ago.

              Can someone please look into this and/or advise me how to fix this up (other than doing a myriad of test outs)?

              September 26, 2018

              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

              @blutach

              Can someone please look into this and/or advise me how to fix this up (other than doing a myriad of test outs)?

              Order by crowns (L0): https://www.duome.eu/blutach/progress

              • 1) Either you migrate back to the (old) stable tree2 with 78 skill by registering your account as a teacher or student on schools.duolingo.com (empty classroom); your old progress is not vanished and is still there!!

              My experience with A/B trees: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/27976263/Can-I-revert-my-account-from-being-a-registered-teacher-All-A-B-trees-converted-back-to-the-old

              • 2) Wait that the A/B tree3 (96 skills) gets final/stable to access it from a classroom.

              I have no idea where the A/B tree3 progress is internally stored and how to access it again.

              I still wonder why people are also migrated from an slightly A/B testing tree3 to another A/B tree (4).

              Now I can not even start this French tree3 anymore as I know that I will lose all my progress because I will be eventually migrated to this newer A/B tree4.

              This does not make very much sense, especially as all (html formatted) "tips and notes" are not available anymore on the web portal as tree4 from staff was written for the mobile apps users introducing their new "mobile grammar notes" feature on IOS.

              Describe there what has been going wrong.
              Give concrete examples about crowns, previously completed skills on higher L2-L5 levels.

              Let's see how developers can ignore thousands of opened tickets because of corrupted French trees.

              • 4) Try to request in your ticket that you want A/B tree3 back (if you had it before with 96 skills).

              Side note:
              I NEVER have heared from staff concerning my own opened ticket and my wrongly migrated EN-PT tree because of their "simple conversion rule" instead of "complex mapping" (not a single L3 skill) because of crowns introduction in April 2018!!

              • 5) Fix your tree yourself and the lessons variables in your extended profile by testing-out all L0 skill (purple colour) to the minimum crown level L1.

              Firstly, you need to understand how tree conversions happend before the crown-area:

              You definitely needed to REDO all the (flagged) single lessons or you needed to test-out the entire skill; either it was up to 10 or less lessons (not all lexemes had been always resetted, so you did not have to redo all lessons just these which can fix the '"num_missing" variable).

              • 6) Wait for another ~(6) 12-24 months (or longer) when finally you may be able to retake the intial placement test or checkpoint tests AFTER an immense "tree update".

              Please upvote this good suggestion (one opened general ticket in the linked comment might be much better): https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29011235$comment_id=29028835

              September 27, 2018

              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

              Detail / background description to Point 5)

              Their old "update tree migration and skill conversion code" (pre crown era) is clearly not 100% ready for their April 2018 "crown update":
              RESET of the old "missing_lessons" and "num_missing" variables in your official extended user profile still happens and handling of them was not improved.

              The code has probably not been touched very much in 2017 + 2018.

              Well, I can only guess but I made my own experiences with my own EN-PT tree update trying to fix it when the old "lesson test-out" was still there.

              Otherwise this code wouldn't RESET straight so many skills to L0, especially when they are already on higher L2-L5 levels.

              ..(...)..

              IMHO this is the problem when you rush out new half-baked code / (crown) concepts which is/are not 100% compatible with old "tree update/conversion" code.

              How the tree update went for my EN-PT tree in June 2018

              Interestingly this did not happen to many of my EN-PT skills when I got the update in June 2018 when I compare it to EN-SP reports or when I take a look at messed French trees.

              Most of my old skills thankfully stayed at the current crown level despite of some resetted lesson/lexemes variables because of skill conversions.

              Of course I had to re-learn those newly added grammar skills which had been introduced (91-69 = 22 "new" skills).

              Looks like the Portuguese contributor team got it better working in the Incubator to avoid a lot of mess :-)

              September 27, 2018

              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

              @blutach

              Hi Les,

              congrats again to ~92 + 5 (grey/locked) skills on L0 level :-)

              I had counted only 24 completed skills on different crown levels in your progress.

              Quote: Advise me how to fix this up (other than doing a myriad of test outs)?

              Maybe the best really is to leave this tree for a while if there are any solutions / feedback for the above points 1-6).

              If you hadn't already completed your FR-EN reverse tree, I would have suggested to start it right now and wait.

              • 7) You could create a 2nd user account and start over with the French tree by taking the initial placement test which might fix all 92+5 / 119 skills all at once up to the crown level L1.

              • 8) If you waited for a while and you have not found any workarounds for the points 1-6) you could reset this tree for yourself from level 25 to 0: https://www.duolingo.com/settings/reset_lang

              Once resetted to language level 0 you are allowed to retake the initial placement test (like suggestion point 7)) where you can test-out all 119 skills all at once (to crowns L1).

              The big benefit of manually testing-out all single skills

              (which you want to avoid)

              Your trained spaced repetition / strength data is probably not totally corrupted for old/converted 92+5 skills as you just have to complete the words and fix the "num_missing" variable (lexemes).

              The rest of the available / remaining data stays (hopefully).

              But you will be losing all SR / word strength data for the other 24 skills + remaining half data of the 92+5 skills when you do the complete tree reset.

              For 92+5 skills the strength will be set to 100% once you have tested-out.

              I am very sorry Les that Duolingo totally broke your tree.

              Best regards / Viele Grüße

              September 27, 2018

              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisaskier

              I totally agree Garpike, when Duo implemented the previous [also unannounced] tree format change I was completely floored and not at all happy.....this time it threw me for a moment but then I realised all it means is that I get MORE french to practice with, that can only be a good thing surely?

              Change is good.....even if it feels scary at first!!!

              Happy learning fellow Duolinguists :]

              Update : Although I do have to admit that it is becoming rather monotonous re-doing the basics in every single module. I've been using the "level up// test" option but the sentences/translations don't seem to become any harder, in fact they seem to be exactly the same from level 1 through to level 5.

              Further update:

              I finally became so de-motivated by the new french tree that I followed Thomas Heiss' instructions to restore the old tree. Being back on that tree has showed me quite clearly that I had, in fact, "lost" a fair amount of my french knowledge. Levelling up through the new tree didn't teach me anything, it was far too basic and I lost the structure and grammar I had been used to in the old tree.

              September 26, 2018

              [deactivated user]

                You have a point, but I find learning very slow on Duolingo. I prefer the vocabulary-aquiring, naturalisation method of LingQ.

                September 26, 2018

                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Angela872862

                I have just read this long post and think that it is really rather patronising. Everyone learns in a different way. No-one learns without motivation and in some cases (certainly mine) I get motivated by seeing progress rewarded by visible indicators. I am totally aware that by removing these my actual progress has not diminished, but I like to see them - for motivational purposes. I don't know what rocks your boat, but please don't talk down to people if they think/feel differently to you.

                September 27, 2018

                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisaskier

                Are you referring to my long post Angela? Sorry if you found it patronising, that was certainly not my intention :[

                October 25, 2018

                [deactivated user]

                  and if you care more about the game than the outcome, you will feel cheated

                  Er, no. I have said time and time again that I don't care about levels, xp, leaderboard races, etc. I think gamified learning is an absolute cancer.

                  The reason I'm so hacked off is because I would probably complete the course in a month, and if my progress is reset than all of the skills I have been looking forward to doing in the next days and weeks are now unlikely to be started before January next year.

                  September 26, 2018

                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/garpike

                  Do you know how many times this has happened to me? Quite a few. Many golden owls have been lost, almost-golden trees have been yanked back to square one and skills lost in scores; I have certainly been 'hacked off'. I chart my progress using the metrics DL provides; it is irritating when these metrics suddenly change or the system resets.
                  If you care about these things then you care about gamified learning, because that is what it is.

                  Now go and read my post again, and stop being both patronising and offensive by calling me patronising and offensive for providing you with valid and tested suggestions to diffusing your anger about DL course changes. There is no benefit to me from offering such suggestions; I only thought they might help.

                  September 28, 2018

                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/D_..

                  making all kinds of incorrect assumptions about why I personally use Duolingo.

                  I am not here to collect XP, flags, levels, etc.

                  If you're not here for the game features, the levels, the flags etc. it has to be for the knowledge.
                  And you cannot lose that no matter what changes happen. Progress in that sense is not lost as long as you keep practicing.
                  Slow progress down an updated tree is another thing if testing out is not available. But if you can test out and you have the knowledge, then what do the changes cost you? Sounds like you have a deadline for yourself to complete a tree, which could be the case of course, but again, maybe you can meet it by testing out and, in any case, such a deadline would have nothing to do with Duolingo. I honestly don't understand what the 'lost progress' problem is, save for demotivation.

                  September 26, 2018

                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ofred19

                  I don't understand. If you aren't concerned with the gamification elements, then why care about "completing the course". The tree is obviously not a representation of the total sum of all there is to learn in the French language, meaning that "completing the tree" only has value inasmuch as it represents "beating the game". If the object is to learn French, then getting new content can only be seen as an unequivocal good, right?

                  September 26, 2018

                  [deactivated user]

                    Yep, I prefer LingQ.

                    September 26, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sszulm18

                    Try Lingq

                    September 26, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

                    I have 86448 French XP points. My tree is flattened. I had completed it so I could do timed practice on any skill so as to keep fresh. I just checked out one of my "mauve" skill level lessons. Why in heavens name am I back to "Oui" and "Bonjour".?

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sarah229436

                    I am so upset about this. I was progressing nicely and now I'm back to 'oui' and 'bonjour' and can't access 'plurals' which I was well on my way to completing. Please give me credit for what I've already done. I am NOT happy.

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/opton24

                    I'm annoyed too to see all my progress having disappeared. I'm going through testing out of level zeros, but what a waste of time. I still hadn't caught up to where I'd been before the last time they changed the tree. I work on French, Italian and German every day, but hate wasting time on the super-easy French stuff.

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LordPaul256

                    Really? Again?

                    I had already used to my Duolingo usage to 30xp per day per language, because plowing through the beginner stuff again after completing the tree is just monotonous, but I had barely gotten anywhere when they reset it again.

                    This is ridiculous. It's like some Sisyphean task, where as soon as I roll the boulder a little bit up the hill, it just rolls back down again.

                    September 26, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/morningtime

                    Half my tree was in GOLD, i had completed them to LEVEL 5. Now: all gone, have to start at "Bonjour" and "allo" .... Come on. This is useless.

                    September 26, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidNixon13

                    Sorry not quite! If I was starting again, I would be allowed to use the "Take a shortcut" option to progress more quickly BUT the tree tells me that all three checkpoints have already been passed!

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KingPanda0

                    I still don’t have the new french tree. Neither does my brother.

                    Are their still people with the old tree? I don’t think I’m in a classroom, but I don’t know how to check.

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LordPaul256

                    I literally got the new French tree after completing a lesson in the 3 month old French tree. It was: A) complete lesson, B) get XP, C) Haha! Here's your new French tree!

                    Rolling it out in the middle of a user session is pretty damn annoying.

                    September 26, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ppelk

                    I don't have the new tree either yet, so it's apparently a staged roll out of some sort.

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sszulm18

                    lucky you

                    September 26, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

                    Duolingo: crowns from bad to worse to "worster" and now "worstest". Grammatical errors intentional. It is as if they were trying to drive us away. Or maybe it is again that my high points scoring is to show to advertisers. As if I were spending a lot of time on the platform??? when really what I am doing is "testing out fast". It is useless from a learning standpoint. It is me trying to get back to some type of usable status where I can actually practice using timed practice. I am so peeved. I should vote with my feet...i,e, leave this platform where users don't matter.

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SquirlRat

                    Same here. I'm pretty much done. I think I'm going to give up on learning a natural language except for revising the 'A1 French' course on Memrise that's basic 'phrase book' stuff.
                    (I'm pretty far along with Esperanto so I think I'll just stick to that)

                    September 25, 2018

                    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sszulm18

                    Try Lingq. I love it.

                    September 26, 2018

                    [deactivated user]

                      Me too

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tachy90

                      Hasn't happened to me but, wouldn't it make more sense to do the A/B testing on new users, rather than messing with trees while users are half way through them? This just seems like common sense to me.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      @tachy90

                      Quote: wouldn't it make more sense to do the A/B testing on new users

                      Yes, exactly this.

                      It would make sense if you actively enrolled yourself into the A/B tree update at a given suitable time.

                      But as we know 50% of old users are being used as their testing userbase.

                      Example:
                      If you are being FORCED of migration from tree3 (A/B tree started ~5 months ago) to this newest tree4 from staff it does not make that much sense to me.

                      I would expect that no French3.0 tree user has already agained crown level 5 in all skills.

                      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29011235$comment_id=29021563

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Denzels_French

                      Really disappointing I can't lie. I literary have to start from square one because if i don't il be lost. I've seen that there's stuff which i would've learnt in the later lessons now appearing in early lessons. I wish this update was optional because right now I dont even know what to do.

                      September 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AngeCI
                      • 1189

                      This is the fault of the Duolingo team who invents crown system which currently works so badly. This is not the fault of the French contributors.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      @AngeCI

                      This is the fault of the Duolingo team

                      If the system now forces its users (not only the new ones or where users add a NEW EN-French course to their list) into tree migrations and converted skills at the wrong time, staff should be aware that they are actually responsible for this dilemma.

                      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29011235$comment_id=29021804

                      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29011235$comment_id=29019304

                      The A/B testing process needs to be optimized.
                      The system is telling what the user should be doing, not vice-versa how it should be honestly dealt with a customer.

                      This is not the fault of the French contributors.

                      No, not the contributors, of course not.
                      For some users new trees are a good thing against boredom.

                      Even on the old Duolingo strength system (pre crown era) skills had been resetted and you needed to re-complete up to 10 lessons so converted skills where counted as completed again.

                      But you didn't have to complete so many lessons (crown sessions) on several crown levels L0-L5 which you could all be losing.

                      who invents crown system which currently works so badly

                      Well, this is the drama when you RESET existing skills to crown L0 (purple), when users had already leveled-up several skills up to L2-L5.

                      The only solution is IMHO that existing users with half-finished OR finished tree are being asked if they want to really RESET their tree and be part of the newest A/B tree French experiment, or not.

                      The popup text would clearly have to highlight that several skills will need to have to be resetted and crown progress will be lost (e.g for EN-SP it was ~58 skills) and a calculation should be made how many.

                      Without doing this, people have all rights to complain in multiple threads and staff really should listen to their userbase what they can or need to improve.

                      Previous experiences could have been made with the English-Spanish tree; many users complained.
                      They should now not be ignored.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AngeCI
                      • 1189

                      I started learning French thorough Duolingo two years ago when it was tree 1, then it converts to tree 2 and soon the crowns are established to all users while I was busy testing out the lessons, then I was given the third tree for me to test out again ... even when I did not finish tree 2.

                      I have fewer time so practice than before, that makes the testing-out slower than before.

                      I think users should be able to look at the NEW words added without resetting the skills.

                      September 28, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarolJA1

                      I am very disappointed with this new tree. I was working my way through systematically and now my completed units are scattered and there are many new ones near the beginning. Why could not these new ones have been added to the lower parts so I could get to them in order? Feeling deflated.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lisaskier

                      That would have been a really good idea Carol, I too prefer to work through the tree systematically.

                      Hopefully someone at Duo will read your suggestion and implement it!

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sszulm18

                      Absolutely wonderful idea. I was thinking that myself. I hope they read some of these posts and Lissa.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sszulm18

                      I totally totally agree with you

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarolinianJeff

                      I was only about a week away from the French Owl, and then I logged on and was devastated to see that I basically have to start all over.

                      A very easy fix to this would simply be to create a checkpoint near the very end. As it is I can't do any of the checkpoints because I have a few random completed skills toward the end of the tree

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

                      I wanted what was called the "decay" feature back so I knew what needed a refresh. But recent "decay" first wiping out all my progress with crowns last spring and now all my crowns in this new tree where I am back to basic skills is ROT rather than "decay".

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarolinianJeff

                      Okay, I gave in and just reset French. Lost my Level 17, retested out of 80 skills and into Level 12. Frustrating as hell, but at least I now have 66% of the skills done instead of 14%.

                      September 27, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/waikong

                      all the power to you, quite a drastic step. Lingot to help.

                      September 27, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ichigotchi

                      I did the same, but I only got so far with testing out. Duo just isn't worth the trouble anymore.

                      November 21, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/B.Ellis

                      I was working on level 4 and now I am back to "oui" and "bonjour" ???? Nearly all my progress has disappeared and I lost 200 crowns. No owl at the bottom either. I worked HARD for the milestones and was getting an encouraging amount of fluency and now I have to start all over. I am not a happy camper!!! What a rotten thing to do. Why couldn't they change it for only the new enrolees and let the rest of us enjoy our hard-earned progress? My loyalty ends here. Bad move Duolingo. I was on the verge of paying for it so I could use it offline at work. Your loss.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      @BettyAnneE

                      JFI: Have you been working on second tree3 (96 skills) or on the first old/stable tree2 (78 skills)?

                      From which previous tree have you been migrated to the latest staff's tree4 with 119 skills?

                      Did the same happen to you like LordPaul? https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29011235$comment_id=29021563

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emhobl

                      The same has happened to me. I love Duolingo, but was surprised to find that my tree was almost completely altered this afternoon. I have been using Duolingo for nearly two years, specifically for French, and have learned and earned a lot during that time. It seems that my new tree does not show that. I am excited for the challenge, but a bit surprised that past work does not get much credit.

                      September 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dany650m

                      Many people have posted disappointments at the arrival of the new English tree. And little by little the learners became calm. I had also finished my tree. I noticed that the new tree had been enriched with new words and expressions. At first we are a little lost and we find that there are many repetitions. It disturbs those who already knew all that but it's well for beginners for memorizing. Also we have the opportunity to skip steps when we are able to do it, with the choice to take the "key" … I'm sure that soon you will take this new tree as a new challenge. Good luck while waiting... Sincerel :)

                      September 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LordPaul256

                      I think the problem some of us have is that this is the 2nd time this has happened in 3 months. (Edit - 5 months?)

                      The first time, many of us did eventually calm down and restart our progress. But to get wiped out again, less than 100 days (Edit - half a year) later? I might come back to French on this site, but I am going to explore other options and just stick with refreshing my German on Duolingo for a while.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      Hi @LordPaul

                      I can see you are on the latest (third) French tree4 from staff: https://www.duome.eu/LordPaul256

                      Quote: The first time, many of us did eventually calm down and restart our progress.
                      But to get wiped out again, less than 100 days later?

                      Wait a moment.

                      Do you mean that you have been migrated from the newer second tree3 (96 skills, A/B test started ~5 months ago) from contributors to the most recent third A/B tree4 (from staff, 119 skills/598 lessons)?

                      What would that make sense?

                      Did you at least have time to complete your previous French tree, at least on crown level L1?

                      Or do you mean you have been migrated from the old (stable) tree2 with 78 skills to the newest tree4 (119 skills) from staff?

                      Viele Grüße

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LordPaul256

                      I completed the 'original' French tree before the A/B testing this year. (This appears to be your tree2 with 78 skills.)

                      I was migrated to the new tree from contributors sometimes this year. (I've read recently that it was 3 months, perhaps it was indeed 5 months ago.) At the time, I decided to continue working my way through the tree, but did not feel motivated by the tree reset and crown system, so I decided to do 30xp a day in French with the idea that over time I would eventually complete it again. I also took up 30xp a day in German to refresh my skills there.

                      Now I am back at square one in French. My motivation to continue is very low.

                      ~

                      Before you comment that by having already completed the tree once that I should start looking elsewhere to continue my studies, I will preemptively point out that I am already using other sites and sources to supplement my learning.

                      I used Duolingo primarily as a means of refreshing and strengthening my basics. As a musician, I know the importance of not simply plowing through the basics and leaving yourself with a sloppy foundation, but to memorize and familiarize yourself with them through repetition and daily use so that they become as breathing. A daily routine consists of both strengthening the basic concepts and then stretching your knowledge and creativity through further means.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MasterZsword

                      I was quite surprised at the update when it came my way, too. However, I had to remember that no progress was actually lost. Everything that I learned was still retained in my mind, and Duolingo can never take that away. Plus, I think the new tree offers fresh new challenges, and I happen to enjoy going back to the lessons I knew (or thought I knew) perfectly, even though I'm not required to do so. The only thing that truly frustrated me was that it took away my owl. However, I was able to get it back with time. ^ ^

                      Actually, I have a feeling you're talking about the 3rd updated tree, which is what I don't have.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ckendall19

                      I am in the same mess as others; I hit level 25 a while ago, and was recently going for all gold crowns and was about 2/3 of the way there. I lost 200+ crowns yesterday. I am at 45K XP and still have to test out of basics 2?

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ros186385

                      What I don't understand is why new skills aren't offered in the shop, instead of recreating the whole tree. There isn't enough to buy in the shop as it is, and adding more would keep more people happy.

                      September 27, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WinstonSullivan

                      I am very upset. I completed the French tree a while ago. I came back a few months ago and found most of skills totally gone. I've been working hard to get them back up. I was not far from getting them all to level 4 and now this - I lost 200 crowns overnight!

                      I will never use Duolingo again until this is fixed.

                      September 27, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ImogenPark3

                      I'm. not happy either. you can only skip. level one. If you want to. skip. level 2 you have to have 450 crowns, and you can't get them by skipping levels. I don't see the point in using Duolingo if I'm going to have to go right back. to. the beginning, and it will take me ages to get up to where I was

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      @ImogenPark3

                      Quote: level 2 you have to have 450 crowns

                      No, as you are talking about the IOS mobile app you actually mean gems, not crowns.

                      I learned from another thread that the IOS app asks you for GEMS if you want to use the test-out feature.

                      Either you use the web portal where you have no GEMS and you do not need any Lingots.
                      Or you get the Android app on an Android device which also no GEMS.

                      GEMS/health is an exclusive feature of the IOS plattform (for now; we only heard very seldom user reports about health on Android).

                      If you don't want it, don't use the IOS app.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Angela872862

                      You have good reason to moan I am so sorry. Surely Duolingo understands that to persevere in learning anything you need to be motivated. Having your visible achievements seen to be taken away is crazy. Duo will say that you are still as good as you always were at your language - of course you are, this is not the problem. The thing was that you saw your achievements written down and it spurred you on to achieve more. That is what motivation is all about. You have been let down - it happened to me on the Spanish tree which I had finished. The Crowns arrived and all my previous hard work appeared to have been down-graded. In the end, for me, I got used to the Crowns and did carry on and re-motivated myself. Good luck for you in doing the same.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ckendall19

                      OK I have filed a bug report asking DL how after level 25 45K XP I can be at level zero on verbs 1 and present 1. I am awaiting a reply.

                      September 27, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      Good news!

                      SHOF Duome.eu French tips and notes

                      65 (-1) cached (html formatted) grammar notes for your English->French tree:

                      https://duome.eu/tips/en/fr

                      October 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      [NEW FEATURE] Duome.eu shows "tips and notes" for multiple language trees incl. not active courses: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29385314

                      October 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/0_0rion

                      Was told to repost a comment i made from another thread on this one:

                      Regarding the diminishing quality and accuracy of the French course the further along you get:

                      The title speaks for itself. Im nearing the end of my first Duolingo course (French V4) and I have noticed the further along I get, the worse the skills get.

                      What I mean by that is a number of things:

                      • Poor sentence structure

                      • Very few grammatically correct alternative answers

                      • Previously correct answers are now incorrect

                      • Marked wrong for not misspelling some things

                      • Tons more on the spelling and grammar...

                      Etc... These I can understand as they are likely peer edited and receive less and less eyes the closer you get to completion simply because less people get that far before quitting.

                      However, these I can't immediately excuse as lacking peer review:

                      • Word bank only has the words that complete the translation, and no others in order to confuse and require some thinking.

                      • Lessons have much less variation of subjects within than there were in previous lessons

                      • Some lessons only have 1 or 2 variations and repeat the same translations exercises over and over again, inevitably making these "advanced" skills easier.

                      • Toward the end of a lesson, the exact same translation exercise is repeated up to 7 times On some occasions, all consecutively.

                      • Lack of variation in exercise type. The beginning was full of imagery for visual connection to nouns, but they dont exist toward the end. There is also a lack of listening exercises and so on..

                      I can understand that its hard for Duolingo to be perfect using its method of constructing courses, however, i think it wouldn't require much effort for Duolingo corporate to dedicate some staff to running through their more matured and popular courses, like French, to manually update and finish them to a higher quality.

                      As of now, it feels like, even in this French V4 tree that Im using, the quality seemed to drop off incredibly just before half way through, (around skill 50/119). And it can be discouraging to continue if it feels like you're suddenly not being taught with the same "care" as you were when you started, which might be perpetuating the issue of these later skills not getting as peer reviewed.

                      Lastly, don't think I'm trying to bash Duolingo, quite the opposite, I love Duolingo, but want to call attention to what appears to be a really big missed opportunity to polish off matured and popular lessons. I'm sure I'll get some hate for this but just looking for some others to chime in on this issue with their own experience as I'm sure with less popular languages it's even worse.

                      November 24, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      I hope you don't mind if I also link back your original thread:

                      "Diminishing quality and accuracy of the French Course the farther along you get": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29717413

                      November 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrenchByte

                      My skills jumped down a bit but over time I have crowned them up so now I have 90 crowns. I'm slowly crowning up my current skills, and I'll move on to the new ones soon.

                      September 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lkmech

                      What happened to the tree? Its all rearranged :s

                      September 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MishaLavrov

                      on the bright side I got 640 xp today just testing out of a bunch of the new skills. and there's 63 more skills to test out of so i can just keep doing that forever i guess

                      September 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lkmech

                      It soooooooooo boring testing out the super basics now though!

                      September 25, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sszulm18

                      i had over 200 crowns and am now down to 53. Not happy at all.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      Hi,

                      well, this is all the problem of FORCED A/B tests where the existing user with a started/crown L1 finished tree is not asked before what he/she really wants.

                      I can understand that people want to migrate from French tree2 (stable/old, 78 skills) to the newer A/B tree3 (96 skills) at a given time; many are not allowed but would have loved to (once their tree is in a specific frozen state to give up most process because of migration and converted skills).

                      New mobile app users who lately add EN->FR might want to step into the newest tree4 from staff and they might love it to see notes where there was no mobile app support before.

                      There is no point to migrate over web portal users (=force people into) from tree2 or tree3 with many available html formatted "tips and notes" to tree4 at the wrong time:

                      You might have worked hard to finally see more French translations on higher crown levels L4/L5, if that really works (I have not tried/seen it yet) but instead several skills are RESET to crown level L0 you are back into reading French and writing/translating into English instead of vice-versa.

                      The EN-SP tree had this going for 58 skills (back to L0 / purple colour).

                      Not every serious adult learner wants to use the mobile app and "mobile grammar notes" as (only) available with the newest tree4 from staff.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      Hi David,

                      I am curious: What tree have you been before?

                      Old stable tree2 with 78 skills or the newer A/B tree3 test from contributors with 96 skills started ~5 month ago?

                      I can't see your French tree because of selected/active Polish: https://www.duome.eu/DavidNixon13

                      If you may not know this trick by using the HOF site: https://www.duome.eu/DavidNixon13/progress

                      What I wrote here might also apply to you (well, not exactly) or at least to other users in a similar situation:

                      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29013848$comment_id=29018649

                      Quote Ivy839630: I just went through the painstaking process of golding the french basic skills in order to make my way through the tree

                      What is the point for you doing this (basic) course where you have to translate into English on a higher ratio for most of the time where Duolingo focuses for beginners teaching reading in French?

                      You would have to reach at least crown levels 4 or 5 per skill to maybe improve the translation ratio for L1 EN to L2 French (I wouldn't expect that it is really on a 70:30, 80:20 or 100:0 basis).

                      I think you - or similar users - are now wasting just your time when the FORCED tree migration happened at the wrong point of time! :-)

                      Advise:

                      • Drop this updated English-French tree4 course... OR...use the "skill level test-out" on the web portal to focus only on the few more complex grammar skills and advanced verb tenses (if you feel there is any need to review them regularly, after 40 years probably not ;))

                      • Start the French->English reverse tree - or any laddering tree from French - to practice writing in French on lower crown levels L0-L2 (L3) if you feel the need: You have not done this yet, David (I see no sense in doing so in your personal situation).

                      Sorry, a user has to follow a strict skill order in the tree.

                      You can not freely choose grammar skills before you have not tested-out previous vocabulary skills at least to crown level L1: https://www.duome.eu/DavidNixon13/progress

                      Quote Ivy839630: I've been learning french for five years

                      Quote David DavidNixon13: I've been learning the language since 1964 and having conversation in French for the last forty years!

                      Because of your statement I am not that convinced that you will get out that much of Duolingo after learning French for five full years / 54 years :-)

                      Intermediate or advanced courses to practice French writing, speaking and listening to fast spoken native content may suite you more instead of a beginner course.

                      What is your overall impression on the Duolingo French course David, that you have been learning this language not only 5 but 54 years and practicing it for 40 years?

                      Have you finished yet all Duolingo French stories?: http://stories.duolingo.com

                      Do you like them?

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dugbert69

                      I too have lost most of my crowns after having finished the earlier tree to two crowns on each topic, and up to three most topics. I was trying to work up to three crowns on every topic, but all of that work is wiped away. The good news is that the new content is better and more complete. And for skills that you have already mastered, to move up a crown level you only have to run through the lesson once (rather than the 4 or 8 times, depending on the particular level). To choose the "one pass" option, on the mobile app, click the key icon when you choose a topic. I'm trying to just think of it as an opportunity to cement what I had previously learned. And to help make up for everyone's disappointment, I am liberally sprinkling lingots to the comments in this thread. Soldier on, all.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/waikong

                      How are people able to test out of sections? After reset, I've lost progress to about 95% of all the topics, and every check point says "passed" - both web and android version. There is no way for me to test out, if I wanted to complete a section, I must do every topic in that section again. Or as some poster commented, don't worry about it, just go and do the ones you want. OK, I buy that, then I should simply ignore XPs, crowns, levels, etc... just treat duolingo as a random group of French exercises. I can almost buy that if every topic is enabled so I can pick anything I want, but I can't, unless I finish the topics in orders to 'unlock' the next group of topics. If you were already got everything unlocked, congrats. So I guess there's really no point using the gamification as an incentive. The duolingo developers should really save their energy and drop all that code supporting structure, points, progress and group everything by subject and move on.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/blutach

                      Had over 250 crowns on French. Finished the tree ages ago.

                      Now have 50!

                      My wife, who hardly speaks a word of French and is about 10% into the tree, has retained her 43.

                      This is absurd. I’ve been on DL for 3 years - straight - and I can’t even access the more advanced levels of the tree anymore.

                      DL - please fix this. Soon.

                      September 26, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Greenwizard126

                      i had 126 crowns....i have a 109 day streak....i was working methodically through the French tree...and today...it seems my hard work is gone and now I only have 36 crowns. Sad.
                      I love duolingo but they kind of killed my mojo today. I didn't even get an explanation of whether or not i am supposed to restart at the top of the tree or just pick up anywhere. i'm really confused and currently a little sad. it seems an oversight to not explain the changes, the rationale, and the ways in which changes are positive. currently...you failed at all three of those. You really should provide an explanation and instructions for the changes. Sad.

                      September 27, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      Quote Usagiboy7:
                      There is the reverse course.
                      I am always curious if people plan to do reverse and ladder trees
                      Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29165506

                      Starting a course from French on the web portal = writing / translating into French (on the right hand side) on a higher (better) ratio even on lower crown L0-L2 (L3) levels

                      (My) Tips and audio tricks for reverse and laddering trees

                      How do you do a reverse tree / The reverse tree helps - how to be able to listen to the target language audio:
                      - https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29266026$comment_id=29267079
                      - https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29262469$comment_id=29266698

                      October 16, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      How to switch back from tree V4 to (old) stable tree V2

                      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29159723

                      October 21, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidNixon13

                      I started off this discussion and I'm still doing French on Duolingo!

                      I have no idea which tree I am on but I do still feel a bit let down!

                      I've had new trees in Spanish, Portuguese, German (twice), Welsh and Esperanto - I didn't feel let down by any of those changes as I could still see what I had already done in the tree and I had new material to work on. I felt all the other changes were postive!

                      For example, in the Spanish tree, all the harder stuff stayed at the end of the tree and a lot of new stuff appeared in the middle of the tree.

                      This French tree doesn't build on what was already there.

                      Anyway!

                      As several people have pointed out, what was in my head is still in my head.

                      And that IS what matters!

                      September 30, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

                      @DavidNixon

                      Quote: I have no idea which tree I am on

                      "French trees explained" by moderator CommeuneTexane: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/29069435

                      You need to switch your course from EN-PT to EN-FR before: https://www.duome.eu/DavidNixon13/progress

                      Or you need to hit the F5 refresh button once you have switched active courses on www.duolingo.com.

                      September 30, 2018

                      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hoges.110

                      I was happy to go back down - it means I can go over and learn what I should have learned (but forgot)! I wish my Spanish and German trees would do that!

                      May 30, 2019
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