https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Update: French Trees Explained

Bonjour à tous !

Understandably there is a lot of confusion in the forums regarding the various French trees. I hope to be able to explain what I know to the best of my abilities. If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask below, and I will do my best to either answer it or find the answer. I may not be able to answer right away as I am out of town, but I will try to do so as soon as I get back within the next few days.

Currently you may have one of the four French trees.

Tree 2 is the old French tree. It has 78 skills, and up until March all users had this tree.

Tree 3 is the volunteer contributor tree. It has 96 skills. This tree was first released to new users in March as part of an A/B test and then was expanded to half of all users in April when it passed.

The Tree 8 is the staff and contractor tree. This tree has 119 skills. The tree contains nearly all of the skills from Tree 3. It starts with the basics, then the staff/contractors added material in the middle intended to cover an A1 level according to the Common European Framework of Language References (CEFR), followed by the volunteer skills pushed toward the end of the tree. This tree was first released to new users in July as a part of an A/B test. Recently, the tree was expanded to longtime users, some of whom had already switched to Tree 3 five months ago.

UPDATE: Tree 12 is the latest staff and contractor tree to be released as of Nov. 20th. This tree has 156 skills and is intended to cover material through A2 according to the CEFR. It is currently undergoing A/B testing. Stay tuned for updates. Again, please note that no current users or students in classrooms will be switched to the new trees at this time. Staff is working on a smooth transition process compatible with the crowns for all current learners.

With the roll-out of any tree there are going to be glitches, sometimes major ones:

If you have the Tree 8 or Tree 12 and encounter a problem with a sentence, please report it within your lesson. Staff should review the reports and correct the error. Bear in mind that they receive many reports (both helpful and otherwise) and it may take time for them to see it. We, the volunteer contributors, do not have access to these trees and cannot make changes. Please do NOT report it in the sentence discussions because staff does not read them.

If you have Tree 3 or Tree 2 and encounter a problem with a sentence, please first review this FAQ. Report problems within your lesson only if you are certain your answer is correct: no typos, spelling errors, extra words, or grammar mistakes. If you are not sure, please ask in the sentence discussions where a moderator or fellow learner will be happy to help.

The crown system complicates matters with a new tree. When a new skill is placed before skills that you have already completed, or a word is moved/added from one skill to another, it clears the crowns acquired in the skills following it. Contributors have no control over this. This is understandably frustrating and even demoralizing because it appears that your progress has been lost. We, the French team, sympathize with this. You can, however, test out of skills quickly. You only need to reach level 1 in a skill in order to unlock the next skill. There is no need to drill endlessly on easy concepts. I think that you have to achieve level 1 in the lower new skills in order to reach the higher skills, even if you've done them before. Can someone confirm or refute this please? The very good news is you haven't lost the real progress that you have learned. That is kept in your mind and you take it with you everywhere.

Please know that the French Volunteer Contributors are here and we want to help as much as we are able. We are limited in what we can do with regards to the Staff Tree, but we will continue to answer your questions here in the general forum and in the sentence discussions tied to Trees 2 and 3.

Bonne continuation !

Your French team
Tex, Sitesurf, GeorgeofTruth, N6zs, Trofaste

Edit: I understand that it is not necessary to complete the new skills in order to access the skills you've already completed later in the new tree. This gives you a bit more freedom to pick the skill you wish to study.

Edit 2: My mistake the Staff Tree has 119 skills.

September 30, 2018

193 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

Thank you for this comprehensive update! :-)

If you have the Staff Tree and encounter a problem with a sentence, please report it within your lesson. At some point staff should review the reports and correct the error. We, the volunteer contributors, do not have access to the Staff tree and cannot fix it. Please do NOT report it in the sentence discussions because staff does not read them.

I'm confused; a few days ago I asked KatyCatz about this, and she wrote:

Volunteers who helped create course content have been and will still be involved in improving the courses.

Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29010358

Why don't staff read the sentence discussions? I wrote a comment/potential correction there because as a (re-)learner I'm not certain enough about my thoughts being correct, and I thought that writing my thoughts in the sentence discussion would allow either me being corrected or the correct sentence used. https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29054426

In the meantime, I have discussed this sentence with a friend on another forum, who has lived in France for decades, married to a French native speaker, and my suggested correction seems to be correct.

All this is a little difficult for me to understand, to be honest.


Most importantly, I want to thank the French contributor/moderator team for all their work. I have learned a lot, in particular from the sentence discussions that when I read them had already been going on for a long time. They offer nuances and insights (and fun!) that are invaluable.

Many thanks! :-)

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

De rien ! The kind words and appreciation expressed here mean a lot to the team.

KatyCatz is new to Duolingo as of a month ago (welcome!) and I believe that there was a miscommunication. Volunteers created Tree 3. Staff took the work of Tree 3 and added to it, edited it, and changed parts of it. Volunteers were not involved in the process.

Why don't staff read the sentence discussions?

Staff follows posts in the main Duolingo forum and occasionally here in the French from English forum. However, staff members do not get involved in the sentence discussions. There are tens of thousands of sentence discussions, and the questions within them are answered solely by volunteers: moderators, contributors and advanced learners.

By the way, your answer is absolutely correct. It should be: Je n'ai pas conscience de ce problème.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

Thank you very much for your additional explanations! :-)

My problem with the sentence discussions is the following: I don't want to clutter up the reports (as far as I possibly can avoid it). So I would rather have a look at the sentence discussion, and if my suggestion has not been discussed yet, add my suggestion there to see if I'm right or if my suggestion is off. I always thought that because moderators/contributors follow these discussions, too, my suggestion made there would ultimately be added.

But if this is not the way because staff don't read these discussions, then I will have to report also those sentences for which I'm not totally sure.

There should really be more linking between the different units provided on Duolingo. It would make the processes much leaner. For example: Once a solution has been discussed in a sentence discussion, it should be possible to make a report from that discussion.

I also can't understand that the contributors can't access the staff tree to make corrections. There should be technical ways of doing this in a documented way, so that everyone who deals with the language could see the history of each sentence. In my opinion, these disconnects prevent fast and smooth improvements.

Many thanks!

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
  • ... je n'ai conscience de mon concept de fin que dans la mesure où j'aperçois mon activité dans l'élaboration de celui-ci ... - Ives Radrizzani, 1993

  • Je n'ai conscience de mon faire, de ma pensée, que dans la mesure où je perçois mon faire. (in a translation of J. G. Fichte)

  • Je n'ai conscience de moi que si j'ai une conscience présente d'un moi situé exclusivement dans le moment présent. Georges Poulet, 1977

Cleanthe3's assessment of this as "intellectual, poetic french" — yep.

A fuller extract of KatyCatz's quote is:

Volunteers who helped create course content have been and will still be involved in improving the courses. In fact, much of their content will also still be used in the tree.

I don't think any of that is incorrect. She didn't claim volunteers were involved in the development specifically of version 4.0 (et seq.). Much volunteer content ("all"? depending on how one interprets "content" in the her third sentence) remains in the tree. Volunteers continue to work with it. Ergo, the statement is true.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

You are right that je n'ai conscience can and has been used for literary purposes, but it is not commonly done. For the purposes of an introductory to intermediate French course, we have chosen to stick to correct French as it is currently spoken and written.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

In my opinion, these constructions which seem to be only "ne" are indeed "ne ... que" constructions with only quite a lot of words inserted between the "ne" and the pertaining "que " (which largely means "only if", "only to the extent that"; in the first sentence: "I only have awareness of my aim as far as I perceive my activity in the elaboration of that aim" (approximately!)).

... je n'ai conscience de mon concept de fin que dans la mesure où j'aperçois mon activité dans l'élaboration de celui-ci ... - Ives Radrizzani, 1993

Je n'ai conscience de mon faire, de ma pensée, que dans la mesure où je perçois mon faire. (in a translation of J. G. Fichte)

Je n'ai conscience de moi que si j'ai une conscience présente d'un moi situé exclusivement dans le moment présent. Georges Poulet, 1977

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3

Agreed. My apologies. Bad examples.

Here are some more relevant ones, if not of the same pedigree:

Car moi, je n'ai conscience d'être sage en quoi que ce soit, petite ou grande chose.

http://www.cvm.qc.ca/encephi/contenu/textes/apologie.htm

(yes, there's a "que" later in the sentence, but it's part of the fixed expression "en quoi que ce soit")

Je veux dire non seulement ce que j'apprends durant ma vie, mais aussi ce que je n'apprendrai pas, ainsi que tout ce qui m'influence et dont je n'ai conscience.

https://forums.futura-sciences.com/archive-psychologie-sociologie/21604-quest-lidentite.html

There's also a seeming Descartes quote, but I can't get the original.

Anyway, yes, I don't see any particular need to teach this in an intro/intermediate French course and the "pas" could just be an inadvertent omission, but, it's also possible that they've just decided to teach about the possibility of leaving out the "pas." That's not in some way an unambiguously wrong choice. I certainly think I recall learning about that in my not-too-advanced high school French classes.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

Anyway, yes, I don't see any particular need to teach this in an intro/intermediate French course and the "pas" could just be an inadvertent omission, but, it's also possible that they've just decided to teach about the possibility of leaving out the "pas." That's not in some way an unambiguously wrong choice. I certainly think I recall learning about that in my not-too-advanced high school French classes.

I'm glad to see that we agree. :-) I think there is a difference between saying "you may encounter "ne" without counterpart in old and very high-level philosophical texts" and giving it as the correct solution in a course aimed at A1/A2 learners.

I also learned inversion in English, but at a quite high level, when I had securely learned and practiced that inversion never happens in English (except in questions). At that point I was able to understand that for inversion to happen, you have to find very clearly defined conditions.

It's the same with the counterpart to "ne". Learners have great difficulties practicing the "counterpart" of "ne". So this is the thing that should be practiced and drilled at our level exclusively, in order to avoid confusion.

Moreover, I definitely don't want to sound like Wittgenstein or Schopenhauer when I just want to say "I wasn't aware of this problem". ;-)

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3

Indeed, it certainly shouldn't be the correct solution. I do think the structure of the incubator itself makes it more likely that additional translations into the tree target language are omitted initially. It's just more steps removed from entering the original target-language sentence.

I also think there's long been a culture of not worrying about it too much because the vast majority of people are answering these questions with word boxes, so they are constrained from coming up with other sorts of answers. (Of course, it's a bit of a different case for this sentence since users wouldn't get a word box that they would be expecting.) For example, I heard of a sentence in the Czech course that entered beta with only the one original Czech translation (the sentence that was a constituent element of the tree structure). When a contributor got back around to it, the number of translations went to somewhere above 1,200.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ppelk

Thanks for the information! It would be nice to know when the rest of users (including me) get an upgrade from tree 2. Would really like some new material..!

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/LSadun

I don't have any inside information, but here's my read of the situation. The fact that they're building Tree 4 based on Tree 3 means that they're not doing any 2 vs 3 testing anymore. They already decided that Tree 3 is better, end of story.

So there's absolutely no reason to keep us in Tree 2 for a while longer and then move us to Tree 3. The only reasonable plans were to move us to Tree 3 as soon as the 2 vs. 3 testing was finished, or to wait for Tree 4 to be ready and move us straight to Tree 4. Since they didn't do the first, I figure that they're planning on the second, which probably means that we'll get moved straight to Tree 4 at the same time as the Tree 3 people get moved to Tree 4.

Which might give me time to finish turning all the Tree 2 leaves red. (11 to go!)

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ljredux

As you say, the most important progress is in the knowledge, not what is visualised on a computer screen, but this fact is complicated by the gamified learning system Duolingo has introduced and the psychological effect it has upon users.

The Duolingo system strongly appeals to a sense of visual completion. The word 'completionist' exists in the gaming world for a reason. Users covet visual rewards quite heavily and spend a lot of time and effort earning them. So when something goes wrong with Steam, the PlayStation Network or individual games that results in achievements being lost, the sense of loss and outrage among the userbase is palpable. It is actually very rare because gaming developers are well aware of the consequences and bad press it brings.

I think we all know why we are here, and that what we learn is more important than shiny icons on a computer screen, but that doesn't change the psychology of the matter. If you (Duolingo) create a gamified learning environment with a visual reward system then you have a responsibility to acknowledge the psychological impact of such a system and to ensure the integrity of any rewards earned.

Perhaps it might even be worth considering that gamified/visual reward based learning is not compatible with a mandatory beta testing environment.

Most of the outrage here could have been assuaged by giving users a notice period or allowing them to revert to the tree they had not yet completed. I'm going to assume that's not possible due to a lack of foresight.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

I agree completely. The gamified learning environment makes the sense of loss even more palpable and painful.

Advanced notification and the option to "opt-out" for a time would go a long way to easing user frustration, but at the moment that doesn't seem like something that Duolingo is willing to do. For starters, it would be less compatible with a randomized A/B testing environment.

However, as someone who has become hooked on certain games in the past, I do understand your point and the psychology of rewards.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Doug922257

"Perhaps it might even be worth considering that gamified/visual reward based learning is not compatible with a mandatory beta testing environment." ljredux

Why?

What an interesting discussion. I like to think I am not affected by the gamey side of Duo, but I do like to collect ingots, points, levels, streaks and crowns. Everything else I'm not interested in! I do remember being very angry when I lost my nice gold tree when the new crown system was introduced. My desire to learn French helped me over that disappointment and now I think the crown system is much better, in so much as there is more content. I look forward to a new tree being introduced but hope I get all the crowns first. I am hooked on Duo French and feel the moderators are my friends, except for Sitesurf, with whom I am grammatically in love. She says she is not a "Grammarian", but I think she is - in both languages. She teaches me English too! I would like to know how to get on to a more advanced tree and I think something could be done with the sentence discussions to enable one to avoid a lot of the drival and excessive duplication. Old questions can have reams of discussion. Also, a simple statement of the objective of the question would be helpful so that we know what we should be learning.

March 6, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/Seattle_scott

Thanks for the great explanation. I have been through and finished all three French trees now, and I’m still redoing the latest new Spanish tree. Between the two trees I feel like I’ve had a forest of trees cut down this year. But regardless, I thought the French tree was well done. Tree 3 is pretty comprehensive and covers a lot, and I saw all of the French mods were very active in the discussion threads.

As for the gamification of learning, I’ve thought about this a lot. I do self study in other areas as well, and have for years. In doing so, you set goals for yourself, because without goals, and milestones based on those goals, you just wander about. So goals, although arbitrary, are necessary for advancement. Set a goal, reach it, set a new goal, reach it, and so on.

The problem with Duo, which of course has nothing to do with contributors, is that Duo constantly moves the goal post, erases work achieved toward a past goal, and generally keeps moving the cheese. That is both frustrating and demotivating for users, and Duo would do well to advance the system and move forward without the constant rip and replace method and constantly moving the goal post. In software development we call this backwards compatibility, and I think Duo staff (not contributors) haven’t given enough thought to making changes that impact longtime users backwards compatible.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

I agree. Although I'm not that focused on the achievements as shown, I still have a certain idea about how I want to progress through my tree.

And I think I, too, would have been very annoyed if I had settled out on tree 3 in May, only to find a completely new concept in September.

I also wonder what conclusions Duolingo draws from the A/B testing, and if these conclusions aren't misleading. When I get a new tree, I work intensely on it just in order to see what it is. I may go up to crown level 5 here and there just to see what to expect.

If they measure my activity on the new tree against a hypothetical me using the old tree, they will definitely always find a huge increase in activity. "Our new tree is a fantastic success!" -- no, this would not be the right conclusion. I only was in the process of familiarizing myself with the new structure.

Overall, I feel that there is too little "live" and pro-active communication between Duolingo and its various participants on the different sides (users, staff members, volunteers). They put something out, and then there's a huge number of similar forum discussions ("I lost thousands of crowns!"), in these discussions, solutions are discussed, and then nothing happens until the next surprise.

All this should be embedded in preparation and reviews ("lessons learned" for the future), not only on the technical level, but in particular in the direct exchange with the human participants.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3

I've seen people make such arguments a lot. I think Duolingo has really, really strong incentives (like a presumptive unicorn-scale valuation, almost entirely predicated on user base rather than profit) to not make novice data interpretation errors and trick themselves into believing things are working for whatever goals they're trying to achieve when they're not. I don't think they do only super-short-run analysis. There's a reason the new tree version A/B tests run for months. They want to see that whatever metrics they're watching stay constant, good enough, increase, what have you for a good while.

If what more or less happens on average (which I suspect is pretty likely) is people say "erg, what are all these blah-colored circles doing here? well, I guess I'll work on them" and then they do and they keep on using the tree afterward, well, I suspect that doesn't look too bad in Duolingo's eyes. One criterion I think they're constantly looking at is what (i.e. where in the tree) causes people to not come back to the site for a certain length of time. I think if there's an uptick in that, the alarm bells start going off, and whatever's causing it is pulled. Apparently, newly-introduced lessons, even with the many attendant errors and omissions, don't tend to cause this to happen. The A/B tests of new tree versions seem to succeed.

I'd suspect that Duolingo does have organized methods for attaining user sentiment information (i.e. apart from just usage). However, for this information to be of actual use, it has to be from something like a random sample, i.e. the last place you'd choose to try to get it is the uber-self-selected people who show up in the discussion forum.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@Seattle_scott

Quote Scott: Wait, there is a tree 4?

Whatever the next number after tree2 and tree3 has to name it :-)

Or lets call it a third tree:

Quote CommeuneTexane: "The Staff Tree is the staff and contractor tree. This tree has 119 skills"

Quote Scott: I’ve got 96 skills. Does that mean at some point I’ll be given the fourth tree?

Yes, unfortunately "forced A/B tree migration" from tree3 to the newer tree is what already happens to several users...

"The new tree. I find it frustrating": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29115050

I added therein a 2nd link to a previous "Newer French tree" discussion.

Hurry! Print all your tree3 "tips and notes" from your duome.eu progress page - on the new "notes tab" - from that single notes page into a PDF or you will lose it in the near future!

You also might lose several grammar skills from tree3...as the newer staff trees like EN-SP use a different concept (vocabulary skills with random grammar rules in practice).

I am starting this Excel sheet to see all tree2-tree3 and tree4 comparisons in more detail.

I was already struggling to find several grammar skill names (renamed, re-ordered from 1-3 -> single skill or deleted) so I would have to extensively scan the extended user profile; very annoying.
For the newest tree I also find that some verb skills start with the name 1, but I fail to find the skill 2 or 3 just because they both suddenly have a very different name.

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Seattle_scott

@Thomas.Heiss: Thanks. That's helpful. I'll just test out of the new tree when I get it. I'm actually very fluent in French, so I'm not worried about the notes. It will be interesting to see what they've cooked up this time.

The new Spanish tree has been helpful, and I'm still working through that after having finished it twice now, so this will be my third Spanish tree. So I'm spending most of my time in Spanish and German, and hoping to finally get my little golden Owl for German this year, but not a gilded tree. That might take another year. The German tree has been very stable and fewer errors than some of the other trees. I've very much appreciated the stability of that one.

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@Seattle_Scott

The German tree has been very stable and fewer errors than some of the other trees

I can probably explain that :-)

If there are German contributors:

Einige der Deutschen sind m.E. schon eher Perfektionisten; trifft zumindest zum gewissen Teil auch auf mich zu.

Der Wille was (gleich) "richtig" machen zu wollen ist hier öfters deutlich größer....oder eben dann lieber garnicht... wobei man natürlich mit einer ca. 80-85% Prozentlösung auch öfters leben kann :-)

..(...)..

Wenn ich mir einige Threads zu alten/neuen Duolingo Funktionen, Bäume (Staff A/B Tests) oder neue App Versionen ansehe: Dann wird mir leider inzwischen öfters klar, dass dieser angeborene oder anerzogene "Perfektionissmus" wohl leider bei einigen US oder UK Firmen nicht immer Gang und Gebe ist oder der erste Implementierungs-Wurf mit Zielvorgaben von Investoren oder Top-Management einhergeht; selbst von einer ~70-85% Zielerreichung kann bei halbfertig gebackenen oder verbuggten Lösungen meines Erachtens definitiv oft nicht wirklich die Rede sein; sowas kann ich einfach persönlich überhaupt nicht leiden!

Well, it also happens for RC hobbyflying products (e.g transmitter / sender or receiver firmwares).

Hoffe ich trete jetzt niemanden unbewußt auf die Finger (wirklich keine böse Absicht)?!?
Das Feuer ist dann jetzt wohl auf mich eröffnet :-)

I definitely still miss so many useful old Tampermonkey Python user scripts from all the "script gods" somewhere in the world which we will probably never receive a replacement for; R.I.P.


I definitely love my PT->DE (German from Portuguese) reverse tree; so many NEW words (much new vocabulary???) and phrases which I get taught which I have never seen before on my EN-PT tree.

Sorry, can't say yet something about "Perfection-Level" for my 50% finished course :-)

There are definitely MANY useful phrases there!

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Sitesurf

Hello Thomas. Nothing personal here, but since this is the French forum, could you write in English (or French), please?

October 7, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ShellMarg

Dear CommeuneTexane First I would like to say that the original concept of Duolingo, including crowdsharing of information and expertise, made this site very special. Those of us on the English to French tree benefited from the incredible efforts of many especially the Course Contributors noted above. It was akin to having a private french tutor at our disposal, all for free. Their expertise was compiled in the Discussion forum and in the Tips and Notes which could be accessed by anyone at anytime. I am concerned and have an uneasy feeling about what is happening. From what I can discern, the Course Contributors have now been cut off from the new Staff Tree, they cannot respond to questions posed by users nor can they input to necessary corrections. If I am correct in this understanding and if it is the new operating procedure of Duolingo, I am quite shocked. Certainly those who have been such an important part of this journey deserve to continue on this journey. From what I am reading on this post it appears that the Course Contributors have been "cut off". Would someone please provide clarification as to what the future brings for the Course Contributors.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/oskalingo

Your concern is well warranted, in my opinion. Unfortunately duolingo has taken a lot of money from venture capitalists who now want to see a profit from their investment. Increasingly duolingo will be driven by their requirements (e.g. monetisation) and respect for the community will increasingly diminish. We've already seen this with the introduction of advertising on the site.

So yes, community involvement in duolingo was once good but it is increasingly being undermined. I think this will only continue. The way they have treated the mod team in this latest tree restructure is just one more sign of this.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Dear ShellMarg,
Thank you very much for your concern and kind words for the course and the contributors. I think we can agree that Sitesurf and the other seasoned volunteers are remarkable people. They've been wonderful mentors and colleagues. Unfortunately, I don't know the answers to all of your questions, nor am I in a position to elaborate on certain things.

I can say that Duolingo is constantly evolving and sometimes that brings us very positive changes, like the new "stories" feature. We'll see what the future holds.

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/D3XT3RY0NuT

I want to express my opinion: I like more Tree 3 than Staff Tree. I do not like that Staff Tree removes the grammar skills and the old tips and notes.

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Madhav_Malhotra

Will everyone eventually be able to access the new skills in Tree 3? I know you said it was rolled out to half of all users five months ago... five months is a long time. Will the other half of users just remain on Tree 2, even after testing has finished?

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/el.chapitan

This is what I want to know. I'm still on tree 2, there are amazing things happening on new trees, and I'm just here being part of the control group waiting for the cool new stuff.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

I have learned that staff will "be focusing on making the tree change experience better in the first half of next year and will likely hold off on most tree changes until then."

This means that "soon" is not as soon as I had thought and that staff has heard your frustration and is working to make the transition better. This is good news! On the flip side everyone will stay in their current tree for the time being.

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/LSadun

I understand that there are issues with the staff tree, especially with the elimination of the many useful notes, and that rushing the 3 => 4 transition would be bad. But for those of us who are stuck on Tree 2, having to wait another 6 months to be switched over is very frustrating. That will be almost an entire year since they finished the 2 vs. 3 A/B tests!

If they were planning on doing the 3=>4 transition soon, then it would make sense to freeze the trees until that transition is ready. I get that it would be annoying to get a new tree and then lose it a few weeks later. However, if the 3=>4 transition is on indefinite hold, then they really should implement the 2 => 3 transition immediately.

I know this isn't your call, but hopefully you can carry the word to the staff.

P.S. Hook 'em!

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Message sent to staff. I'll cross my fingers.

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@LSadun

Quote: then they really should implement the tree 2 => 3 transition immediately.

And now I am thinking about teachers who have a full classroom of students or pupils with already started and fully planned French course cirriculum based on tree2.

Or the teacher has only experience with tree2 so far and is not able to provide an adhoc planning for a newer French tree.

I think the much fairer option (for all learners; some French learners on tree2 may still want to complete ALL skills on L1 level before they are going to lose progress) would be an opt-in for the tree3 A/B test.

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Another fair option is for classrooms to remain on Tree 2 with an option for the teacher to opt-in to Tree 3.

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Everyone will be able to access the skills in either Tree 3 or the Staff Tree soon, I believe. I don't know the timeline, however.

EDIT: Lest there be any confusion, we won't get to choose the tree. I believe that we will all be migrated to one or the other soon.

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ljredux

Oh that's great news, CommeuneTexane. Thanks for sharing that info.

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Madhav_Malhotra

I just get a sarcastic impression from Captain Haddock's peevish appearance... :-)

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Danielconcasco

"If you have the Staff Tree and encounter a problem with a sentence, please report it within your lesson. At some point staff should review the reports and correct the error. We, the volunteer contributors, do not have access to the Staff tree and cannot fix it. Please do NOT report it in the sentence discussions because staff does not read them." (Emphasis added)

I wish we could add this to every sentence discussion to cut down on clutter.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ignatznkrazy

People post corrections in the sentence discussions because there isn't a free text field to allow us to describe what we are reporting. We have limited options, especially if we get the answer right.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MishaLavrov

It is also nice to be able to read the sentence discussions and be reassured that someone else also thinks that the correction is valid. Now, if only people would learn not to post the same complaint ten times...

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Danielconcasco

It's the repeats that drive me nuts. Ninety percent of my time on the forum is deleting repeat questions and answers.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3

Thank you for your valuable service.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Lemniscatarum

So I'm guessing now that you think the Staff Tree has passed the A/B test, it'll get rolled out to everyone soon? I wonder why the staff created their own tree without talking to the contributors.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ljredux

I wish they would put my account on the Staff Tree. I returned a couple of days ago after a very long absence and reset my courses, hoping to start work on the latest French tree and complete it in three months or so (before the next tree update). I'm reluctant to progress any further on Tree 3 in case the migration suddenly happens and I lose progress.

I'm in Duolingo Limbo.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

If you value the Tips & Notes that accompany each lesson, I suggest you get a copy of those now or continue to work on the tree so that you have access to them. The Staff Tree does not have the Tips & Notes from Tree 3 that are available on the web version of Duolingo. There are new notes for the added A1 portions available on mobile devices, but the later skills on the Staff Tree no longer have the old Tips & Notes.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/travelgirl_ckp

tips and notes were among the first thing i noticed missing. pretty sad that such helpful information is no longer available to the masses... OR, if it is, us masses cannot find them...

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/travelgirl_ckp

oh, and i have no clue what tree i'm in; all i know is that it's different, and i have no clue how to understand where i stand with duo (and how to get some disabled coursework to be enabled)...

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@travelgirl_ckp

Obviously you are on the tree4 with 119 skills:
- https://www.duome.eu/travelgirl_ckp
- https://www.duome.eu/travelgirl_ckp/progress

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Seattle_scott

Wait, there is a tree 4? I’ve got 96 skills. Does that mean at some point I’ll be given the fourth tree?

You’re always a wealth of knowledge

October 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/el.chapitan

You can find out by going to the duome website that Thomas pointed out and looking at the number of skills. The number is different for each tree.

You are listed as having 119 skills possible (which indicates tree4), whereas my page: https://www.duome.eu/el.chapitan

Shows 78 skills available, meaning tree2. I don't know what the value is for tree3, but I'm guessing not 78 and not 119. :-)

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Doug922257

96

March 6, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward

If you make progress now and then get the Staff Tree, it will look like you lost progress, but the knowledge will be in your brain so you will be able to test-out easily and regain the lost crowns fairly quickly.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ckendall19

But this is silly; I literally lost 100s of crowns (290 down to 60 or so) and had to complete a new level to get back to a skill that was 5 crowns. Why am I forced to redo lessons that I mastered years ago in order to practice what I want to practice?

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/TimYork

Yes, the knowledge IS in my brain and that is part of the problem. While losing crowns was frustrating, it's something I could have quickly moved past. However, I've not only lost crowns but I've lost levels. Lots of them. I willing to accept that the loss of crowns is superficial but the same cannot be said for the loss of levels.

Let me use the analogy of teaching kids to read. In the US, schools will often introduce reading through very simple Dick and Jane and See Spot Run books. These books hold the interest of a beginning reader just fine. However, they quickly move past these books and move on to more advanced reading materials that hopefully continue to keep their interest and increase their skills.

If Duolingo's staff was in charge of the curriculum described above, any change in the content of See Spot Run would require the kids to put down Little Red Riding Hood and pick up See Spot Run again. Aside from the introduction of new plotlines, they would once again be forced to read at a beginner's level. Yes, they would finish the content much more quickly but would immediately lose interest and their progress would grind to a halt. They would very likely switch schools at this point.

This is what's happened to me. Based on other's comments, I've started exploring other sites like LingQ and FluentU and have started spending an increasing amount of time there. Granted, in some cases I'm incurring a small monthly fee but at least I'm making progress. On Duolingo, my progress has stopped while I waste time with the equivalent of See Spot Run just to get back to the same level of content I was seeing before the change. As a result, my activity level here has dropped substantially. I only login once a day, just long enough to test out of a skill and keep my streak alive (admittedly, some things do die hard).

With a more thoughtful switching of the trees, they could have introduced the new content without making us feel like we were in Kindergarten again - and losing customers and ad revenue in the process. It's sad because I really like what Duolingo provides. But, since my main purpose is to make progress in the language I'm learning, the best thing to do at this point is to say good luck and move on.

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ljredux

Thanks for the reply, but see my rather lengthy comment above regarding inherent progress ("in the brain").

I'm a language learner, a gamer and a completionist. Visual reward systems have an effect on me no matter how hard I try to prevent it.

I returned two days ago and have since 5 crowned all skills in the first part of the tree. It was a walkover due to my existing knowledge of the language but I still don't want all of that taken away. I want a chance to 100% the tree I'm on in every way. THEN Duolingo can move me to a new tree if it so desires. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ljredux

While looking over replies in the French > Sentences forum today, some glaring faults became evident in the Staff Tree.

An audio test where the French audio doesn't match the French text. Input errors. "My grandmother is seventy-seven years old," (77) where "ma grand-mère a soixante-dix ans," (70) is the only acceptable answer. You've got to get it wrong in order to get it right.

It's not that the Staff Tree isn't ready for prime time. It's not ready for beta time either. These are surely alpha issues. The example with the grandmother's age looks like an input error that has been wheeled straight out to users without undergoing basic verification first... and there are more like that.

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

We've informed staff about a number of the problems we've found. We're hopeful that they will be resolved soon.

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ShellMarg

C'est huit heures is given as how to say "It is eight o'clock" in the new Tips and Notes in one of the elementary/beginning lessons on the new Staff Tree. Is this correct?

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

As far as I know, it should be "Il est...". And in a quick search, I couldn't find any sources that said otherwise.

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ShellMarg

Thank you. That is what I believe. Makes me question the quality of the Staff Tree... this is a very basic/beginner lesson. How can I have confidence that the more complicated lessons are accurate? A great resource (the volunteer contributors) has been lost to Duolingo and they do not seem to care. This new Staff program is looking an awful lot like every other language learning program and text book on the market. I guess its value added is going to be the gamification aspect.

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ljredux

That's good to read!

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Side note about catching new French trees in private browsing windows (no activity tracking)

Every time I tried to catch tree12 with 156 skills (3-4 times) to take a quick look on "grammar skills" in a private browser window (with no activity tracking) I actually got the 119 skill tree8 version.

My version had seven parts labels Part 1-7 separated by a visual parting line....this is indeed pretty unusual for a Duolingo tree (I know the EN->Spanish staff tree layout).
There were seven checkpoints where there also was a last final checkpoint at the end.
I remembered that a user posted in another thread before that there actually might be two versions of the 119 skill tree8?!
The Pearson? version might have those labeled grouping parts, the normal tree (=staff?) version doesn't have them!?
The user was also missing some skills from tree3 in this 1-7 parts tree which the other tree staff A/B version had (I still go with the saying that both new staff trees are not 1:1 clones of tree3 and do not provide all grammar skills, they don't just add new skills, but restructure the skill layout!)

Even a router reboot / new Internet IP lease (from my provider) did not help....I still got the 119 skill tree version every time I tried and not a second (normal) skill layout.
Finally I got fed up with that after 4-5 tries and changed the hardening level in Firefox for the activity protection from normal to the highest.
Has worked. Finally I got the newest tree in my private browsing window :)

November 28, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Quote Sitesurf: Open a new account and you will automatically be given Tree12 Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29777190

We do have now four A/B trees (tree8+12) which Duolingo cycles back and forth when you open a new private browser window (turned OFF activity tracking / highest level).

It might take a while to FINALLY catch the "right" (the better one is IMHO still tree3!!!) newest tree12 with 156 skills because the Duolingo system still (regularly) throws users into the older normal tree8 with 119 skills (normal tree uses IMHO a failed checkpoint design).

2x tree8 / 119 skills

  • With and without Part1-7 grouping (Pearson?).
  • This one has a new (well 7x) final skill "Checkpoint" in each part + 7 real yellow DL checkpoint buttons are given
  • there is even a last final checkpoint available at the bottom of the tree!

I would call this a good / better tree design.

  • The "normal" tree8 (no parts 1-7 grouping) with only three real DL yellow checkpoint buttons and way too many skills after the third (last) checkpoint was IMHO a "tree design" fail by staff if you compare it to the better tree12 layout or the latest/final EN->PT contributor tree because:

-- there is no FINAL checkpoint
-- you can not test-out MULTIPLE skills at the bottom after the placement test

Nevertheless this "normal" A/B tree8 is still being (randomly) rolled out to new users...

2x tree12 / 156 skills

  • With and without Part1-8 grouping (Pearson?).

  • The normal tree (without the parts line separator) version has improved pretty much over the tree8 design as it has now 7 checkpoints

  • it also misses the last FINAL checkpoint at the bottom of the tree:
    In comparison to the other one or my EN->PT tree it only has 10 skills after the 7th (last) checkpoint, so this might be better acceptable.

..(...)..

At the end it might count which one of the newer four trees has less errors and more accepted alternative answers.

If the Parts1-7 / Parts1-8 designed trees are from Pearson (are they??) I would fear that maybe errors are not corrected easily?!?
No, I have not tried to register a new account after I had got them in the browser window if it is allowed to stay on them.

On the other side skill names and count are exactly the same.

With all French skills being locked (grey) I have of course no clue if vocabulary or any sentences might be any DIFFERENT between the 2-4 newer tree versions (no, I am not talking about tree3!).

I can just imagine that all 2 / 4 new staff trees now share the same sentence database and errors fixed in the normal one are also fixed in the Part-1-n trees?? Are they???

November 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Julie21302

Hi, would you happen to have any idea when I will get one of the better French trees. I'm stuck on the 78 tree and desparately want to upgrade. Thanks Julie

April 8, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3

I think that you have to achieve level 1 in the lower new skills in order to reach the higher skills, even if you've done them before. Can someone confirm or refute this please?

When I got the new English from Spanish tree (also designed and implemented by staff/contractors; also rolled out under the crowns system), this is not what happened (nor, incidentally, has it been for any other new tree roll-out I've seen). I could do any of the newly-introduced skills whenever I wanted to plus all the ones that were further down that I had already unlocked.

Hopefully someone who's actually gotten the new French tree will also take the time to opine...

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

That's good to know, thanks.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/LSadun

The Spanish tree had a similar upgrade a few months ago, growing from 68 to 113 modules overnight. For a few days there was a lot of complaining from people who lost crowns, but that settled down very quickly. You do need to reach 1 crown on each module to unlock the next one. I'm sorry, but I don't remember if the lower modules that already had crowns got locked, or only the new ones. I think that only the new ones got locked, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Catching up on the updated tree was a little tedious, but not too bad. The new tree really did have new content, even in the simplest modules, so it was worth doing a few lessons on each module before testing out. My personal rule is to do 1/4 of the lessons of a module before trying to test out. If I fail, I don't take the test again until I've finished half the lessons. If I still fail, I do all the lessons. I also don't do more than one lesson per day in any module, so I usually have several modules running in parallel.

Today I finally got all of the new modules up to level 3, which is where most of the tree had been before the Great Changeover. It took 4 months, but I learned a lot along the way.

Meanwhile, in French I'm still stuck with Tree 2, and am eagerly awaiting an upgrade.

Finally, in my opinion the main value of the discussions is, well, discussion! Asking questions, comparing notes, and getting Helpful Answers from people who know better. That includes the moderators of course, but it also includes a lot of people who just know the issue better than you do. In French and Hebrew I ask a lot of questions. In Italian and Spanish, I answer a lot of questions. (In German I'm too confused to even ask decent questions.) What goes around comes around.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to think that the discussions are for complaining about the site, and especially about such-and-such answer not being accepted. "Why isn't X accepted?" can sometimes be a very good question, but not when it has already been asked and answered three times in the thread.

To the team: Thanks for the update, thanks for your continued management of the course (to the extent that the professional staff let you), and thanks for your very patient answers to my often-stupid questions. Naturally the course still has issues, but your level of customer service is extraordinary.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@LSadun

The Spanish tree had a similar upgrade a few months ago, growing from 68 to 113 modules overnight.

113 - 68 = ~45 new skills.

However, staff also removed some previous available grammar skills incl. web (html formatted) "tips and notes" (e.g direct/indirect object pronouns or what it was called) in the new tree, so the above calculation is not 1000% correct.

Quote: For a few days there was a lot of complaining from people who lost crowns

Of course, perfectly understandable.

Viewing those migrated skills from a few people (samples) in the threads I had counted quite often ~58 skills with quite much "red text" which had been resetted to crown level L0 (purple colour).

I think this was one of those numbers in average which many Spanish learners had also posted in their Troubleshooting / complaining threads.

But please do not fix me exactly on this number; I have this newer EN-SP tree but I never have been migrated to it (I tried to reset my level 9 tested-out tree to see if I could get it - a few weeks later with an erased old tree I got the new one) and I have not lost crowns so I could take a look again before posting this estimated information here.

As far as I can remember none of the migrated EN-SP sample trees had grey/locked skills?!

So 58 skills was obviously a mix of roughly ~45 new SP skills (+ removed skills count) and ~13 resetted old SP skills (lost crown levels).

The last number (+- n) was probably the hard one for many users who either were on L2-L3 or even had those skills gold on L5.


Compare that with ~58 L0 skills from EN-SP to the EN-FR tree4 migration:

I had counted ~92 L0 (purple colour, unlocked "+x lessons" tag on duome.eu and "Learning" in front of several) + 5 locked/grey skills from a user.
Not only once but a few times (I focused on the first number).

To make these both numbers any accurate and to double verify the second number 5 for any locked skills, we probably would have to check at least 5-10 migrated trees from different users on Duome and check if the user writes if he really had completed ALL skills at least on crowns L1 (golden owl).

For sure there will be a difference for tree2 vs tree3 users for migrated tree4.

..(...)..

Shouldn't be too hard to create a Excel file table on "Google Docs" (shared access) with a good sample database if we really need those more accurate numbers ;)

I often read thread or comment (e.g had finished tree, got converted, was on higher crown levels, want my progress back, etc.) but of course I do not really write it down to give those seen or counted numbers a precise meaning.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/LSadun

There are 66 new modules in the new Spanish tree. For me, most of those started out at 0 crowns, but 5-10 of them started at 1 crown. That means that 23 modules were removed, as 68+66-23=113, which is where people lost crowns. (In my case, I probably lost about 65 crowns in the changeover.) Some of the new modules are repackaging of old modules, e.g. making three modules on a topic instead of two, but mostly using the same sentences. Others are genuinely new.

FWIW, I'm pretty happy with the new Spanish tree. It took me several months to get everything red again, but I learned a LOT along the way. If I have the same experience with French, you will not hear me complaining.

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3

When you say "test out" here, do you mean of a single crown level? Or if you can pass the quiz-out after doing the 1/4 of the questions, do you take it straight to level 3?

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/LSadun

You can only test out of one level at a time. I suppose you could take three tests back-to-back-to-back, but I never did that. In the 66 new Spanish tree modules, getting to level 1 usually only involved 4 lessons, so I'd usually do one of the four lessons and then take the test. Getting the 2nd crown was also typically 4, which took another 2 days -- one for the lesson and one for the test. Getting the 3rd crown typically took me 3 days, although sometimes it took more. This sounds slow, but once things were unlocked I was juggling half a dozen modules at a time.

But I didn't try to get anything to level 2 until I'd brought everything up to level 1, and I didn't try to get anything to level 3 until I'd brought everything up to level 2.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/SunghoonKi20

I think I have the Staff Tree for French (it has almost no tips and notes on the web, has several on the app) and I would love to whether you are planning to add more tips and notes in the future. They are very helpful, but I am much far beyond the last one provided. Will they be added? When can I expect them?

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/LorettaPresley

I was stuck with Tree 2 for the entire five months and recently switched to the Staff Tree. I'm a bit disappointed that NONE of the skills at the bottom of the tree have notes. I sure am glad that I made notes on all the notes Tree 2 had before I was switched over.

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/el.chapitan

I'm so jealous. Still stuck on Tree 2. Desperately want out.

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/LorettaPresley

I actually kind of wish that I could get Tree 2 back now. It had amazing notes and it feels like there was more in terms of grammar. Things like Passive Voice, Past Subjunctive and Imperative seem to be completely gone and a lot of other concepts that were previously their own lessons on Tree 2 are just mushed in with other skills. You get a lot more vocabulary but really a lot less grammar. Honestly, I'm bummed I didn't get to try Tree 3, which seemed to have been good.

Plus it's pretty picky and keeps saying I'm wrong because of my English, or because I like to use "on" more than "nous".

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/D3XT3RY0NuT

It is so disappointing that we don't have notes for later skills. I hope I won't switch soon to the Staff Tree.

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

French tree detail stats

(crowns, lessons, vocab/lexemes, Duo lexemes_ids)

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29741879


New English->French A/B tree12 is out

156 skills, 741 lessons, 4906 "Duo lexemes ids"

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29740054

November 23, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Quote T.H: How is this new EN->FR A/B tree called? V5 or V6?

UPDATE:
Obviously it is called Tree12 and the previous staff tree is Tree8 (not V4) as Tree2 already was V5 :-)

Quote Sitesurf:

Well, if I remember well, the oldest French tree still currently available to some users is labelled Tree2. It was not the 2nd version since the first was Tree0 (2012). It was actually V3.1 (@2015?), therefore the 5th version, with 78 skills

The last Tree version written by the volunteer team was launched in March this year. It is commonly called Tree3 (and the 6th version of the French course), with 96 skills.

The latest two French trees produced by Duolingo staff and currently in A/B test are labelled Tree8 (119 skills) and Tree12 (156 skills) respectively.

Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29741879$comment_id=29753568

November 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Monikacscmuedu

Yeah. I’m stuck with that stupid 78 skill tree.

March 24, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Thank you, Thomas.Heiss.

Your post reminded me that I need to update this post. The newest version, Tree12, was released to new users only on November 20th. It is currently undergoing A/B testing. I will also edit my post to reflect the staff's terminology for the trees, Tree8/Tree12.

November 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/el.chapitan

It is so depressing to be eternally stuck on tree 2 while everyone else is getting the new material.

November 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Sitesurf

If you can't wait, open a new account and you might be given Tree12 so that you can train before your main account is moved.

November 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@Sitesurf

Quote Sitesurf: Open a new account and you will automatically be given Tree12

No, sorry, it is not that easy.

There are now four A/B trees (tree8+12) which Duolingo cycles back and forth when you open a new private browser window (turned OFF activity tracking / highest level).

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29810695

It might take a while to FINALLY catch the "right" (the better one is IMHO still tree3, but was not offered to me!!!) newest tree12 with 156 skills because the Duolingo system still (regularly) throws users into the older normal tree8 with 119 skills (failed tree checkpoint design).

November 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Sitesurf

Quite right, I've heard about these concurrent tests as well. I've edited my previous post accordingly with a cautious "might". ;-)

November 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Chartreux

Hello, is there a list of skills that will be lost after moving from tree3? I understand from another post that grammar lesson on future and past subjunctive are dropped. I find this hard to believe myself but would like to hear from the French team. Bonne Année !

December 29, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Sitesurf

We have started to post all our grammar Tips & Notes, classified by Tree3 skills here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29888394

December 29, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Chartreux

Yes, and thank you for the great effort that you and the others are doing in that area. It is certainly appreciated. I was just concerned from an earlier post by Thomas.Heiss about the modules of such items as futur and subjunctive being removed. It seems odd that they would be; if anything, they should be expanded. The repetition exercises help although often I am left with the feeling of Sisyphus. Cry not for me, Argentina. Regards.

December 29, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MinhTranDo

You can make your own comparisons on grammar skills of each tree by using duome.eu, since the contributor's tree and the staff's tree are so different in their formations.

December 29, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

If staff tree4 is based on tree3 (copied/cloned and modified), why are all (html formatted) "tips and notes" be missing ("explanation" variable from officially extended user profile)?

Tree4 exclusively uses "mobile grammar notes" for mobile app users (e.g IOS).

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

When tree3 and tree4 share so many skills, why does staff/contractors not copy over the already available old (html formatted) "tips and notes" from the "explanation" variable per each matching skill to the new tree4?

No, I do not think we need notes for every skill and I can perfectly understand that the new A1 CEFR skills at the top of the tree still might be missing them and that staff would have to write them from scratch like they do for the EN-SP tree (113 skill, 520 lessons) where they seem to introduce new web notes for the lightbulb button with the same extended features as mobile notes.

But every user FORCED into tree4 - previously on tree3 - will be losing his grammar notes on the web portal!!

I am afraid to start French tree3 in the next ~6-12 months because of this now ;)
I am definitely not a mobile IOS/Android app user!

If tree3 would be stable we could use the schools classroom as a workaround to fight against the new tree4 A/B test when learners are not yet ready for it.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Hi @Thomas.Heiss

As far as making the Tips & Notes available, I'll get back to you on this.

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/D3XT3RY0NuT

You cannot access them using duome.eu ?

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@D3XT3RY0NuT

Of course I can access them thru duome.eu (the new great "tips and notes" tab) as long as I stay on French tree3 and not be forced into the A/B tree4.

The good question is: How long (I am a web portal user, not a mobile IOS user)....

But that I can see it for my tree3 obviously won't help any other French learners who are already on the staff/contractor tree4: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29072779

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/D3XT3RY0NuT

duome.eu cannot keep the tips and notes even after switching to Tree 4? They aren't stored in a separate data base?

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/D3XT3RY0NuT

Thank you for your help!

October 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@D3XT3RY0NuT

Duolingo.com somehow stores the html formatted notes skill-wise (or not) per tree.

But Tree4 seems to use different names for several skills than Tree3...I have not checked many/all.

Quote: They aren't stored in a separate data base?

Maybe the author is caching the same informations for the same user requests...

If I should guess as a Java JEE backend developer: Duome.eu reads them from your offical extended user profile http://www.duolingo.com/users/D3XT3RY0NuT from the specific skill[0-n] and "explanation" variable as only one selected course can be currently active at a time.

If you switch languages and hit F5 Duome progress page content is being refreshed and changed.

October 3, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Is tree3 still under A/B test?

When is it going to be final / stable so it can be used in a http://schools.duolingo.com classroom setting?

Is there any way to stay on tree3 (I got it) with available "tips and notes" on the web portal and to avoid to be forced into tree4 A/B?

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Is tree3 still under A/B test?

We were told that it had passed the A/B test months ago, which is why staff used that version and not Tree 2.

When is it going to be final / stable so it can be used in a http://schools.duolingo.com classroom setting?

I'm afraid I can't answer that question. I don't know when/if it will be used in a classroom setting. It's a shame because we like Tree 3 much better than Tree 2.

Is there any way to stay on tree3 (I got it) with available "tips and notes" on the web portal and to avoid to be forced into tree4 A/B?

I'm afraid not. We are all a part of A/B tests and we don't get a choice to opt-in or opt-out.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/ljredux

This would be a good solution too. I'm on Tree 3. I want to move to the Staff Tree only because (I hope) it would be stable for a few months. That would give me time to complete it.

I would much prefer to remain on Tree 3 however (simply due to the negative things I've read about the Staff Tree) provided I'm allowed to complete it. After completion I will happily consent to migrating to a new tree, even if it results in progress erasure.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Is French tree3 still A/B or is it finally final?

A new user got migrated to it.

Quote francesca380820:
My app just updated and it reduced most of my skill levels to level 1. Why?

Source: "Upcoming feature: Skill levels (warning: quite long thread!): https://www.duolingo.com/comment/25615588$comment_id=30631216

My answer

(in thread "Changes ahead for tree transitions": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=30636575)

Good question.

You run into a French tree3 update: https://www.duome.eu/francesca380820/progress

Obviously you were probably on the old (stable) French tree2 before, were you?

Many French learners actually want to have an update from tree2 to tree3:

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/26726755/The-new-French-tree-is-here-under-A-B-test

You got it! :-)

I am not sure if this is an error by accident (glitch), because staff told French moderators that no updates are planned until they are able to fix their code so people won't lose crowns too easily.

Maybe this just excludes the migration to newer staff/contributor trees8+12?

Personally I was somehow expecting that staff builds a new French tree X version, combining the very best from tree3 and new skills/vocabulary from tree12, but which has a more relaxed (better crowns compatible) "tree design" so people do not lose too many crowns coming from the tree2/tree3 versions (and definitely this is possible as I encountered it on my EN->PT course and the June 2018 update).

If you really want to switch back from tree3 (A/B) to the older tree2, you probably can do so by registering a "Duolingo schools account" and creating an (empty) classroom as a teacher or joining a classroom on your student account you have created for yourself" as explained here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29391773

Be aware: If staff would have finally decided to finish the tree3 A/B experiment and made this tree3 (which was not offered to new users anymore!) the stable one, every user would be switched from tree2 actively, as far as I understand it!!

February 1, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/Boujleba

My French tree has only 81 skills :( So It looks like I'm a bit shortchanged on the French tree for now. Hopefully mine will get better by the time I get where I want to be with Portuguese and start spending more time on French!

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

If you count the "Bonus" skills that would make it 81. So you must have Tree 2 still.

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/MishaLavrov

I believe that Tree 3 and the Staff Tree still have many sentences in common. In this case, if a correction is made to one, will it also happen in the other?

(Though, depending on the future of Tree 3, this might not matter in the long run - and hopefully such sentences don't need as many corrections as the new Staff Tree sentences, either.)

September 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Sentences shared between the two trees are affected by changes made in either tree.

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Hi @CommeuneTexane

Could you please jump onto this thread and hopefully explain what skills and what sentences will have "sentence discussions" and what not comparing tree2/3 vs tree4?

New French Tree - missing 'Discuss' (comments missing for sentences): https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29431250

October 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Sitesurf

Done, thanks.

October 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

Thanks!

October 30, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@CommeuneTexane

Sentences shared between the two trees are affected by changes made in either tree.

Only two or three?

So a change (e.g accepted alternative translation) in tree2 reflects tree3 + tree4.

Change in tree3 -> tree4 + tree2.
Change in tree4: tree3 + tree2.

Or is the user report queue already empty for tree2 and your team does not have to work anymore on tree2? :-) :-)


Are there two "user report queues" for tree2/tree3 (contributor) + tree4 (staff)?

How does a change by contributors in tree3 clear the report in the staff's second queue or vise versa?

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

@Thomas.Heiss.

My apologies for the delay in responding. I was out of town and I had to verify a few things before getting back to you.

I misspoke when I said "in either tree." Previously changes made to Tree 3 did not affect Tree 2, but changes made to Tree 2 did affect Tree 3. In the past we had to make sure our changes were made in both trees.

Now any change in a sentence shared between Trees 2, 3, or 4 (8 or the Staff Tree) affects the other two. Reports work in the same fashion. If reports are cleared in one tree, they will appear cleared in the other trees as well. This only works for shared sentences obviously, as the reports follow the specific sentence and not the tree. Sentences unique to Tree 3 do not appear in Tree 2 and sentences unique to the Staff Tree do not appear in Tree 3.

October 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

The tree contains nearly all of the skills from Tree 3.

Oh no! Same problem like with the newer EN-SP tree!

Several "Grammar skills" (and notes) have been removed by staff (I would have to make a side by side comparison).

This is IMHO quite disappointing to remove useful stuff which has been developed by contributors and were provided previously with tree3 (tree2 too?).

Not every serious learner wants to focus on endless "vocabulary skills" but may wants to hammer "grammar skills" and level (only) those up to crown levels L3 or L4-L5; e.g this is my own strategy concept for my updated EN-PT (forward) tree to strictly focus on the grammar skills and to regulary review them in parallel to my two reverse trees.

Did the older tree2 contain those three Prepositions 1-3 skills and (html) web notes for two?

Skills "Prepositions 1-3" disappeared from the French course (staff tree4): Find the missing html notes from tree3 here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29076972

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/zohargk

thank you! i believe what i have now is the staff tree, and i can't seem to find any "tips & notes" page for almost all of the skills. these pages were extremely important to my way of learning, and having them erased is very sorrowing. do you have any way of helping me? perhaps you know of a substitute duolingo offers?

October 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Quote Usagiboy7:
There is the reverse course.
I am always curious if people plan to do reverse and ladder trees
Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29165506

Starting a course from French on the web portal = writing / translating into French (on the right hand side) on a higher (better) ratio even on lower crown L0-L2 (L3) levels

(My) Tips and audio tricks for reverse and laddering trees

How do you do a reverse tree / The reverse tree helps - how to be able to listen to the target language audio:
- https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29266026$comment_id=29267079
- https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29262469$comment_id=29266698

October 16, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

Good news!

SHOF Duome.eu French tips and notes

65 (-1) cached (html formatted) grammar notes for your English->French tree:

https://www.duome.eu/tips/en/fr

[NEW FEATURE] Duome.eu shows "tips and notes" for multiple language trees incl. not active courses: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29385314

October 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Sitesurf

Can we put this on hold for a while because the contributing team is currently working on improvements and corrections to the Tree3 TNs?

October 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

@Sitesurf

As far as I understand html notes are automatically polled from our extended user profile "explanation" variables (like it is already done for specific single skills with the dedicated lightbulb button on the Duome user progress pages or the 2nd new Duome notes tab).

Each text per skill has a timestamp, e.g "updated 2018-10-25" so I guess it should be possible to detect changes on a daily basis.

Sorry, I have no idea how the Duome.eu author has access to them as a specific username/id is probably needed to e.g access notes for French tree V3.

October 25, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

[NEW FEATURE] Duome.eu shows "tips and notes" for multiple language trees incl. not active courses: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29385314

October 25, 2018

[deactivated user]

    When does the next tree come out. I have nearly finished level 25 and have 409 crowns out of 597. I don't want to lose all this work and 'go back to primary school' AGAIN. thanks

    December 5, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

    Hi AndrewClar367820,
    The new tree has already been released, but only to new users. Currently staff is working on a way to ease the transition from one tree to another for existing learners. Until that time, all tree transitions have been put on hold. All we've been told is to expect that to happen in the first quarter of the year. More info here.

    December 5, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

    Agreed Andrew. There is very little new learning in the 597 crown tree. I do appreciate the few idioms that have been sprinkled in. My hope in reading CommueuneTexane's comment below is that there is some technical method enabling experienced users not to revert to kindergarten. It is my ongoing disappointment that DL does not advanced above A2 on the international testing grid. As someone said earlier, perhaps it is incumbent on me to leave it behind for a more challenging platform. I will miss many aspects of it, which is why I am still here.

    December 5, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

    Hello carolynn357728,
    Tree12 is supposed to cover material through an A2 level. There are future trees planned to go beyond A2, but I do not know the timeline for that.

    December 5, 2018

    [deactivated user]

      what is A2 in relativity to GCSE?

      December 5, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/LyleLeger

      I am looking forward to getting the Tree12 tree in a couple of months or so. Right now I completed 60 skills of the tree5.

      December 5, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Deliciae

      Thank you for the update! With several tree tests running simultaneously, the situation has been more than a little confusing for learners being shuffled between them, but I'm sure the explanations above will go a long way when it comes to remedying that. May the best tree win.

      I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank the French team for all the work they so tirelessly do, both here in the forum and behind the scenes in the Incubator. As a dabbling French learner, I've enjoyed not only the course itself, but especially the moderator support I've experienced in the sentence discussions. It's second to none on this site, and it makes such a difference.

      As a contributor and moderator myself, though be it to a course with a substantially smaller user base, I can only take my hat off: It's not news to anyone here that Sitesurf is an angel, but you're all superstars. The work you're doing is invaluable. Merci beaucoup !

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward

      I'd like to underscore what Deliciae expressed so well. The French course is undergoing some complex growing pains, and you are all dealing with issues in a gracious and supportive manner. The French course is absolutely incredible, and it continues to improve. The Tips & Notes are concise, clear, and thorough. The support we receive in the sentence discussions from the course creators is constant and always of incredibly high quality.

      I consider myself fortunate to be among the millions (gasp!) of people who are able to learn French thanks to your hard efforts. You are appreciated beyond words or measure!

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas_Wesley

      I would also like to add that I love doing French on duo everyday and am grateful to everyone who has allowed me to do so. Merci beaucoup!

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/ShellMarg

      Well said. The work done by the volunteer contributors has been exceptional and has made Duolingo a unique quality language learning site. Please read my comment posted a bit below. Why are the volunteer contributors no longer able to access and work on the new Staff Tree English to French? Why are they no longer able to correct errors. It would be most appreciated if Duolingo would explain this sudden change to the concept of learning on the En > Fr platform. If I am understanding the new situation correctly, the volunteer contributors have been "cut off" from inputing to the new Staff Tree. What does this mean, why has this happened?

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Deliciae

      Thank you.

      I cannot speak for Duolingo, nor do I think it is my place to discuss the matter in any greater detail here. I share your concerns, and I've made my feelings known to staff.

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/ShellMarg

      Thank you Deliciae. I am surprised about the silence from those who have benefited from the contributions made by the course volunteers over the years. Interesting commentary...

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/D3XT3RY0NuT

      How many lessons did Tree 1 have?

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

      Tree 1 is a bit of a misnomer because there were several. They all predate me by a number of years, but this is a question that Sitesurf may be able to answer...

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/lauraalice2

      At the risk of sounding silly... how do we know which 'tree' we are on and will it make any difference to my learning? Thanks.

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

      Hi lauraalice2,

      According to this: https://www.duome.eu/lauraalice2 you have 78 skills (+2 bonus), so you are on Tree 2.

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/david3dd

      Merci for the explanation.

      If there are multiple simultaneous versions of any one language tree in use by various users, then Duo should provide an improved account summary report, to help the learner track the tree progress.

      The "Your Profile" report is already PARTIALLY there, displaying the "Level" and "XP" per language. But a few other important details are missing:

      • Current Number of Crowns.

      • Total Number of Skills in the Tree.

      • Number of Completed Skills.

      • Number of Partially Complete Skills.

      • Current Tree Name or Version_ID would be nice (to help in the discussions).

      The http://duome.eu tool is helpful in this regard, but Duo has direct real-time access to the actual DL database, and surely can provide a detailed report for all of the languages of the user at once.

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/M.Dantes

      Thanks for this breakdown! As a teacher who uses Duolingo, the three different trees has posed a problem. I use Duo to supplement my main curriculum and for increased practice. I give dictations based on the lessons as a Duolingo assessment.

      Is there any way for teachers to choose the tree students are using, or for us to know exactly which one they are using? Wondering if other teachers or someone at Duolingo has advice for this case. Sorry if I posted to the wrong thread!

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Danielconcasco

      I was under the impression that with previous A/B testing, classes were totally in one or the other. I could be wrong though.

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @M.Dantes

      I might have to re-try this again with my current French tree3....

      Quote: Is there any way for teachers to choose the tree students are using, or for us to know exactly which one they are using?

      This one is really easy to answer:

      As http://schools.duolingo.com does not support A/B trees for teachers and students (progress sharing) all of you will be automatically on the old / stable French tree with 78 skill.

      Proof: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/27976263/Can-I-revert-my-account-from-being-a-registered-teacher-All-A-B-trees-converted-back-to-the-old

      I will have to re-test if tree3 with 96 skills stays for me when I register as a teacher or I will re rolled back to tree2 (as to expected) with 78 skills, as it happened previously to me in June 2018.

      If tree3 is still in A/B test, neither of you can get it as a stable tree appropriate for Duolingo school classrooms!

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @Duolingo staff @moderators/contributors (tree3)

      Is it allowed for me to share all the (html) "tips and notes" for tree3 as a single PDF e.g on an online server?

      Duome.eu offers them on a single page and and I could copy and paste them to Winword and print the PDF from the Winword layout...

      The headline in bold could be "Official Tips and notes from Incubator contributors of French tree 3.0"; the footline could be "Copyright material by Duolingo contributors for the English to French course at http://www.duolingo.com" or whatever...

      I think many French learners of the newer tree4 would appreciate it very much if staff or French course contributors could do it and I do not have to do it myself and share them for download on a central hosted www.duolingo.com URL link.

      Thanks for giving me feedback what your team is planing in the next couple of weeks.

      The easiest would be staff could be copy and pasting the existing (html formatted) notes from the tree3 extended user profile "explanation" variable.

      The main problem might be that several skills (e.g skill x 1-3) have been restructured e.g into single skills and given (very) different names...I almost can not find/could find several grammar skills in my tree / extended user profile!

      Tree4 is for sure no 1:1 clone of tree3 as the basis!!

      ..(...)..

      From thread: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29094432$comment_id=29098135

      Quote Steven.mich: ...if there is anything I can do about it?

      My answer:

      My plan is to print a "Tips and notes" PDF from the MANY available grammar notes from my French tree3 for me as long as I have it (most of the time EN-PT or PT-DE courses are active for my account as I do not yet learn French at the moment).

      As it is probably copyright material by contributors / Duolingo I somehow have to make sure if it is allowed to be shared, where to put it online or how to link it.

      The best would be that staff or contributors do it for themselves so I do not have to seek for any permission and I won't personally run into any not forseen issues or complications myself.

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/ShellMarg

      Hi Thomas, My understanding is that the Tips and Notes were created by two volunteer course contributors who intended them to be used by anyone. As a result, your concern regarding copyright material is most likely not an issue. Good luck and please post where they are if you manage to do this. The more pressing issue for me is the apparent fact that the English to French volunteer course contributors such as Sitesurf seem to have been cut off from accessing the new Staff Tree. Very disconcerting...

      October 2, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      SHOF Duome.eu French tips and notes (this thread, other comment): https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29383940

      October 25, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

      We're exploring this as an option, as well as finishing and releasing unpublished notes.

      October 6, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      How to switch back from tree V4 to (old) stable tree V2

      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29159723

      October 25, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      Changes ahead for tree transitions

      Forward link (created ~3 weeks ago): https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220

      October 28, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Marianna_Pep

      Hi! I have recently completed the French tree 2, having gained all the 390 crowns. I have started doing the Duolingo stories, but I would really like to spend some time per day in the lessons format. So, would there be a way to switch to an updated tree? Tree 12 sounds really great, as my actual French level is B1+.

      November 26, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

      You can try creating new accounts until you get Tree12. It is in A/B testing at the moment, so not all new users get it yet.

      Since your actual level is B1+ you may also want to include resources outside of Duolingo to strengthen speaking and listening comprehension; these are two areas that are limited due to Duolingo's format. At a B1 level you can also read a considerable amount of material and may enjoy books and online news.

      Bonne chance !

      November 27, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/LyleLeger

      Hi Marianna, I forgot about doing the French stories after completing the 78 skills up to the level 5. If and when I get the new tree, I hope it is tree 12 with the 156 skills - twice the size of tree 5 with 78 skills.

      November 28, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/RobertB33

      Can I update to tree 12 from tree 8 now? Is that possible?

      January 3, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/LyleLeger

      I would like to update my French tree2 with 78 skills to French tree 12 with 156 skills (covering all the basic French of A1 and A2).

      January 3, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/Nata208576

      How would I know which tree do I have? Thank you.

      February 4, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @Nata208576

      By switching back to your English->French tree and making a lookup here: https://www.duome.eu/Nata208576

      Currently you are on the French->English reverse tree so Duome cannot see your other (inactive) course for refreshing and storing your values.

      As you have already reached a 110 days streak, your numbers and progress of all trees will be saved when you cycle through them.

      February 5, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/EthanRay12

      Does anyone know when the new trees will be of access to everyone, or when all the trees will be the same again?

      March 2, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

      We've been told that staff is working on a way to improve the transition from one tree to another under the crown system and that they expected to have that working within the first quarter of the year. Until then, all transitions have been put on hold. If they are on schedule, then I expect that they will begin to move us to new trees shortly.

      March 3, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/michaelsobsey55

      Thank you for the trees. I have Tree 2 in French.How do I get tree 8 or tree 12? Please LMK

      March 2, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @michaelsobsey55

      Quote: How do I get tree 8 or tree 12?

      Not on this account because of stopped transitions:

      https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220/Changes-ahead-for-tree-transitions

      Catch tree12 in a private browsing window and register a new user account once you have caught it: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29810695

      You can decide between the normal tree12 or the Part1-8 section A/B version which has dedicated "Checkpoint" skills where you have to pass a short quiz to jump to the next section.
      If you get tree8 after doing the first Basic1 skills, close the window and try again (high hardening level for no activity tracking) to finally get tree12.


      AFAIK tree2/3 are not that much compatible to the new staff/contractors tree8/12 designs (different skill names, more vocabulary related, 26+ previous "grammar skills" from tree3 have been eliminated, a moderator acknowledged moved sentences between skills, etc.) so you will be losing quite of your progress and previous gained crowns anyways.

      Because of this and the incompatible (old) tree update and skill conversation code (crowns) and many user complains, staff has - fortunately - decided to freeze the current trees for all users.

      ..(...)..

      I have no idea how I could force the system to stay on the contributor tree3 with more 26+ dedicated "grammar skills" :-(

      March 3, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/Adam744026

      I don't know which tree I have but because of missing 'Animal 1' I have a problem with glitch in 'practice'. All the time trying to practice dog and cat. Please do sth with that.

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

      I think in this case it would be best if you submitted a bug report. https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29054426 because it is a software problem, as far as I can tell. Hope this helps! :-)

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/D_..

      Based on your extended user profile here https://www.duome.eu/Adam744026, you are on the staff tree.

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Marcie107849

      Duolingo French est incroyable. C'est un excellent moyen d'apprendre le français. Lorsque Tree 3 est terminé, le niveau suivant est-il B2? Je vais continuer à apprendre et j'ai besoin de connaître l'équivalence. Merci!

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/LorettaPresley

      "Lorsque Tree 3 est terminé, le niveau suivant est-il B2?"

      Non. Loin de B2. Peut-être A2.

      October 4, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Ken482461

      Thanks for the information, much appreciated. How do I get to know which French Tree I am on? Started with Duolingo in July this year. Thanks in advance.

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/ldbowman12

      The number of skills tells you which one you're on, as outlined in the original post: Tree 2 = 78, Tree 3 = 96 and the new staff tree has 120.

      September 30, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Ken482461

      Thank you.

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/ehob

      Thank you

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/tonyroulstone

      That explains to some extent the intent but not what happened where overnight with no warning we got a new tree where all the skills were zeroed. I had completed the old tree was level 21 and over 20,000 XP. The fact that there is new material in the tree is good though I have yet to find it. In the last week to get started again I have been clearing the skills to the first check point by testing out. I have spent several hours, cleared the skills to the first point, gained 7,500 XP and over 50 crowns but I have learned almost nothing new. Therefore, the transfer from the old tree looks like it was done in ham-fisted way. It did not recognise previous learning and put a whole lot of repeat work in the way that was not really required. I am not sure what is the best way to proceed now with what is in essence a very good way of learning French at a distance.

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/judydench47

      i feel exactly the same

      October 25, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/cliff650608

      That does explain a few things. Thanks for all the hard work! Love the new french lessons!

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/judydench47

      I was using tree 2, this altered my levels when it was introduced, however the tree that has been reduced to zeros i still tree two, I think this is a computer glitch

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @judydench

      You are definitely on tree4: https://www.duome.eu/judydench47/progress

      • Skills: 119+2
      • Lessons: 248/598+6

      Tree2 had 78 skills, tree3 96 skills.

      I am counting for your tree2 -> tree4 migration:

      • L0 skills (added or resetted lessons/lexemes): 72
      • L1 skills : none resetted
      • L2 skills (missing_lessons, lexemes num_missing): 4
      • L3 skills (missing_lessons, lexemes num_missing): 4
      • L4 skill (missing_lessons, lexemes num_missing): 1
      • L5 skill (lexemes missing): 1 (see the red dot - this is AFAIK right now not fixable with the new "A/B skill crown level test-out code"

      L2-L4 might be fixable with test-out OR sequential "crown sessions" (lessons), maybe not.
      The old "lesson test-out" code is not available anymore!

      October 1, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/judydench47

      This does not mean much to mean , as I am on the same tree as several friends and they have remained the same. Migration to a new tree does not explain how skills attained to level 3 are now reduced to zero,possibly 1 or 2 but not 0

      October 7, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/judydench47

      Bonjour Thomas, imagine my delight when two days ago my old levels re appeared, almost back to where i had been and now today back to level 1 and two's . I completed all the zeros. What is happening???

      November 16, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Harry111162

      Merci.

      October 7, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/lenadurand

      Bonjour, j'ai un problème de synchronisation , je ne sais pas comment le résoudre, qui peut m'aider?

      October 13, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/CommeuneTexane

      Bonjour,
      Je ne sais pas les détails techniques. Si vous avez un problème, vous pouvez poster votre question dans le forum "Solutions aux problèmes" et là-bas trouver de l'aide pour résoudre un bogue ou obtenir une réponse quant au fonctionnement de Duolingo.

      Bonne chance !

      October 14, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/klayton_lippard

      thanks

      October 15, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Jan978645

      How can I change from my French from German Tree 2 to Tree 3 or Tree 4?

      November 8, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @Jan

      Tree V2-V4 is related only to the English->French course, not German.

      The French course from German is a separate tree.
      You need to check the French(German) sub-forum about stable and A/B testing trees.

      November 8, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Jan978645

      Thanks, I will check it for this tree. :-)

      Is there a possibility to change the French from English tree from tree 3 to tree 4?

      November 8, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @Jan

      Yes, create a new user account.

      Or if you want to have a first impression logout on the web portal, re-add French from English and you will be given V4 for the placement intro test.

      November 8, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Jan978645

      Thanks! That is a very good advice :-)

      November 8, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

      I was migrated to the "Staff Tree" after slogging through the Crown system. I am VERY disappointed to read that the Staff Tree is only A1 or A2 level French. In that case I am foolish to hang in as my level cannot advance through using this system. I am not really learning how to communicate more effectively, which is my only goal. I care not for crowns or lingots. I have hung in with DL for 815 days now (including once when my 624 day streak was erased erroneously with no answer to my appeals). At the beginning it was helpful to refresh my high school French. Now, I am coming to the conclusion I am wasting my time on this platform. My abilities are not improving. I have stuck with it because it is easily interruptible, in that I can put in a few minutes here and there when I am waiting for clients who are late. I can even "test out" while watching TV as TV also does not demand much focus. Other platforms from which I might learn more require undivided attention. I did not previously know the word "completionist". I am not otherwise a gamer. It looks like I have fallen prey. It is undoubtedly time for me to migrate.

      As to the comments of having users be the bug finders, I understand. It is one way I can give back since I use DL for free, though my participation must be marketed collectively to potential advertisers. It irks me that I cannot report some errors other than on the Discussion board (which CommeuneTexane advises not to do). For instance one cannot report after getting an item correct in the view of DL. Sometimes the English for the French translation is in fact not English at all, though the words themselves may be. There is no way to comment. It seems to me this is a unfortunate error, especially a disservice to non-English speakers who are working the tree "backwards". The other irritant is a translation that is acceptable and inconsistently wrong a few sentences later. ????

      November 24, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/LSadun

      To echo piguy3's comment, congratulations on reaching the point where you're all tapped out on DL French. Enjoy your further learning elsewhere. As for me, I hope to reach that point someday, but it's a LONG ways off.

      Meanwhile, all DL course do have glitches with their English translations. It's a consequence of everything having to be entered by hand, and of the different forms of English spoken in different places. What sounds off-kilter to you may be completely standard to somebody else, and vice-versa. DL needs to accommodate both of you.

      That said, there is English that is a little weird, and English that is flat-out wrong. In my experience, DL French has much, much less truly bad English than any other course I am doing. (DL Hebrew is particularly weak in its English.) The moderators here make a real effort to cultivate sensible translations, and not word-for-word gibberish. Hats off to them for that.

      November 24, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3

      I always think it is a call for celebration, not some sort of regret when one comes to realize one has gained all one can from this system. Congratulations! You've learned (or recalled) a lot of French!

      As it happens, there's a further massive expansion being rolled out. So come back in a few months to see what the dozens of new skills can teach you.

      The other irritant is a translation that is acceptable and inconsistently wrong a few sentences later.

      Translations have to be entered sentence by sentence, by hand.

      November 24, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/LyleLeger

      DuoLingo is always improving. Wait for the French tree 5 with 156 skills, twice the size of the French tree 2. Imagine getting more than 4500 vocabulary words mastered. Definitely higher than a A2 level.

      November 25, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/klayton_lippard

      thx

      November 27, 2018

      https://www.duolingo.com/Nicola526448

      This is the update I've been looking for! I was worried that my Duolingo wasn't updating correctly but it's still in testing by the looks of it.

      Cool. Patiently waiting for what sounds like a huge amount of new sections. Great work you guys!

      January 3, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/vitzao_martins

      How can I update from one to another os is it automatic? I'm still showing on doume as using the tree 2

      January 4, 2019

      https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

      @vitzao_martins

      Quote: How can I update from one to another?

      You can't.
      It is forced / done by the system automatically.

      I never have seen an "opt-in" question to a new tree x (A/B) test if you want to participate like I had seen the opt-in message for the "crown update" in February 2018 if I would like to participate (I refused that question until I was forced in April ;)).

      For example I would like to enroll into the updated Portuguese->English A/B tree test (it is much longer) just because I have not "really" started the old tree and I would not care to lose my L1 crown progress for the first few skills.
      Only a few users (old users are randomly selected by the system, mostly new users who participate who add that course to their profile) are allowed to access new trees.

      ..(...)..

      Currently (thankfully for all French tree3 owners) the state is frozen.

      See the moderator thread "Changes ahead for tree transitions": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220

      However, if you really want to play around you can access both new tree8 and tree12 (four trees!) as a NEW user in a private browsing (no activity tracking) window: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29810695

      Make sure you catch the right French tree of those four A/B tests available BEFORE you create a new user account on Duolingo!

      January 4, 2019

      [deactivated user]

        If staff tree 8, which I am about to complete takes me to A1. How do I get to A2 and above?

        January 6, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

        Having advanced content to the B and C level is a change I asked for. At present it mean migrating to newsinslowfrench, lawless french. Both are excellent. Neither is free. There re others as well. Like you AndrewClar367820 I would love DL to develop up to C level. I have completed two different French trees and have almost finished my third French rendition now and am learning next to nothing.

        One of the things I like about DL is I can do it in snatches of time. I subscribed for awhile to newsinslowfrench and newsinslowitalian I stopped as they require blocks of time I cannot always commit.

        January 6, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/JaneWineland

        How do I know I have the most current tree? I understand the new one has 156 skills? Is that correct? And how do I get that one as opposed to the one I've already got, with 119?

        July 11, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

        Jane, according to https://www.duome.eu/JaneWineland/progress you do have French Tree 12, which has 156 skills. You seem to have 1 crown in every skill, for a total of 156 crowns, with all your skills at 100% strength. That seems great to me!

        July 11, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/JaneWineland

        I'm a French professor finding my way around duolingo and considering using it with an incoming high school class. My two concerns are (1) the fact that the folks at duolingo who are revising the trees seem to roll them out in a way that erases all prior progress, and (2) the little light bulb that you can click on, which gives a helpful little tutorial on the skill, is missing once you get to about level 8. Thoughts? I know I can get the tips and notes, but it's not the same thing as that convenient little button that requires just a click.

        July 11, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/JaneWineland

        Also (in addition to my comments stated above), am I correct in thinking that the light bulb is available again on all skills ONLY ON THE APP... or am I thinking of tips and notes? This is my first experience with a crowdsourcing endeavor, and I'm finding it a tad confusing.

        July 11, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/GrahamWarr

        I don't really use the Tips (Light Bulb) as I'm using Duolingo to simply brush up my French through practice. I exclusively use the web, not the app, but a quick check shows that the Light Bulb seems to be available to me on the first 99 skills but not thereafter. Oddly enough, skills 54 to 99 (City 4 to Encounters) are where the bulk of the new skills were added when the French tree was updated to Tree 12 (at least for me, as I was updated from Tree 8, whilst others may have been updated from another tree(s)). It seems odd that skills 100-156 don't have Tips, as my records show that only 6 of that set of skills were new in Tree 12.

        I don't know if https://www.duome.eu/tips/en/zz would be helpful. It seems to be a monolithic set of tips but lacks navigation. https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29888394 may help in this regard.

        July 11, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/JaneWineland

        I am familiar with the contents of the first link you posted. The second link addresses the issue as well. I suppose my major complaint is that the user has to go out and look for help when it could have just as easily been supplied by the people upgrading the tree. Why roll it out halfway working and halfway not? Or why not postpone rolling it out until a bit longer, when it was completely ready and all skills were presented in a consistent way, with the light bulb present on each? I don't get it at all.

        July 11, 2019

        https://www.duolingo.com/JaneWineland

        Thanks very much, by the way!

        July 11, 2019
        Learn French in just 5 minutes a day. For free.