35 Comments
If you're going to include western religion in the native tongue, you need to also include our kupuna, aumakua, and various deities. Westernizing and white washing the culture through language is pretty offensive.
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Sounds like a reasonable point to me on cultural grounds, though whether to include any of either set of words in the current beta mini-course is a question. But even on linguistic grounds, since the beta Hawaiian course currently teaches barely over 100 words or lexemes according to Duolingo's own statistics (as can be seen in duome.eu), one wonders seriously whether 'akua' and 'iesū' occur(red) so pervasively as to be included in the first 100 words one needs to learn Hawaiian linguistically and culturally, unless you're a missionary.
Zwickerman mentions their occurrence in early recordings of Hawaiian. Though I know nothing of these recordings, I had professional training in cultural and linguistic anthropology, so I have some grasp of what we might call potential sample or corpus bias (= representative of what, and not necessarily prejudice, per se). Who and how many were recorded, where, by whom, how, and in what type of context, recording format or with what agenda. Though the result is a historical record, it is a record in the first instance of those particular people someone happened to choose in that particular place, time, & context. If we are indeed talking about acoustic recordings, given early recording equipment, they are less likely to have been done as actual fieldwork in one or more culturally natural settings, etc. How representative are they of broader use of Hawaiian across variables of geographic separation, dialect, and degree of Western contact & acculturation? Only data from wider contexts, even if not contemporaneous with the recordings can help shed light on this.
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I have searched previously on nupepa . org - the database of Hawaiian language newspapers, and I did not find one instance of their use. I only started seeing these expressions on Facebook in Hawaiian language groups within the past few years. I spent years learning Hawaiian and lived in Hawai'i 21 years. I never heard them once. When I asked in the groups about their exact meanings and such considering how idiomatic they are, I got a total brush off. Interesting to me to see such conversations here on Duolingo about them. These are not so commonly used that I would expect a separate topic devoted almost exclusively to them here, especially in a section called polite expressions that do not include the use of please, thank you, and you're welcome before any other expressions deemed basic etiquette by having its own section the way these do.
Brother it is refreshing to meet another Scholar in pursuit of deeper understanding and ALIVENESS. So in that way, may we continue to let our lives blossom and flourish with the tears of the Moon, the beckoning of the Stars, and the luch sea foam of the Sun, continue the journey my friend because my knowing of you is what invigorates me to learn more, MAHALO Na Aumatua, Mahalo Na Akua, Mahalo Na Tupuna, Aloha aku, Aloha mai, Malama aku, Malama, Mai, EŌ!
Please read "Facing The Spears of Change: The Life and Legacy of John Papa I`i" . This book references so much of what you are asking about and gives a detailed understanding of the plight of our language and the dominance of an epistemological overlay by Academic "Western" schooling... MAHALO for your inquisitiveness and your knowledge ALOHA
YES, MAHALO iā`oe no kou leo! Thank you for your voice, for They Hear YOU...ALOHA
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I totally agree with you. I am white and i have longed for this course to learn the HAWAIAN culture, not the western one. Btw, i am not christian, so this words are of no use to me
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These are nowhere near as common as an entire section devoted to them on Duolingo would suggest. In fact, in 21 years living in Hawai'i I never heard them ONCE. I just started seeing them used on Facebook here and there just a few years ago. You do not need to use these AT ALL if you do not want to. No one I know ever used them. It is nice and all to resurrect old words and phrases and grammar, but the glaring omission of please and you're welcome to use these phrases instead is disappointing.
Okay look, I'm not going to argue the cultural or religious side of whether or not this phrase should be included in this course, but I am going to say: does anybody use this? I mean, I grew up in the immersion community, and I never once heard this spoken, ever. This is a really kind of weird phrase to have in there, when again, it ain't really used. I think it shows the bias of KS showing through(might get a bit of flack for saying that, but I think it's true).
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Kāko‘o aku wau i kou wahi mana'o. I was at UH Mānoa for a decade and never heard these ONCE. 'A'ohe o'u ho'olohe mai i ho'okahi manawa. That said, just a couple years ago, I saw these in Hawaiian language Facebook groups. That is the only place I have encountered them. I looked in nupepa . org but I could not find one use of them. Someone said they are from recordings / from kūpuna who have used them as they learned it from church. Okay.... The Hawaiian language community at the universities have a habit of digging through source material for forgotten words and expressions and such and then putting them into use so 'ike is not lost. Maybe these are examples. So that leaves me with two doubts - 1 is why do these expressions get their own section to be taught to people all over the world as if they are common when that is not actually the case, and 2 why do they sound so hapa haole in construction and idiomatic meaning. They sound as authentic Hawaiian as Hau'oli lā hānau does, which is not much. I also agree with you about KS - very much a Christian organization influencing content to me. They put almost totally unused Christian expressions of uncertain origins in a topic called polite expressions and completely left out please, thank you very much, and you're welcome.
Speak from the heart and all will listen, I've grown up from reading this thread, ALOHA pū!
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I have never ever heard anyone uae this. And I went to Kamehameha where we were forved to go to chapel every other week... so thats saying something.
I seriously do not think this should be included in the course.
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Woww, this is is cool. Is this a common phrase? I didn't know Hawaiian was influenced by Christianity like this.
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It is not a common phrase. People around me usually use the word pōmaika'i.
I agree, this is new. First time hearing it. Pomaika'i. (Difficulty using old phones with limited keyboard options ugh. Long vowel sound "mark" above the "o" )
I must say that just starting Hawaiian with Duolingo, I was shocked to see the use of the word Iesū used in the course. Whatever oneʻs thoughts on religion/Christianity or its origins in Hawaii or whether the alii, moi accepted it or not. There should be a disclaimer that Duolingo uses it without any real reason to do so. If it came in at some point later as part of history, or in cultural use for example like Japanese. "I am going to the shrine on New Yearʻs Eve" then it makes possible sense. "We visited a heiau yesterday". This introduction of Christian words reeks of Kamehameha Schoolsʻ indoctrination and varioius ʻōlelo kumu on island in Oahu who feel that the Lordʻs prayer is the best way to teach Hawaiian. The language of the islands is not Christian it is Hawaiian. There is an oral tradition that far supersedes the missionaries writing it down. So many people were excited to see Hawaiian on Duolingo but I wonder if they know about this path?
A lot of Christian speak with this program, when does the Indigenous Belief come in I wonder?? Will they make room for the Native Speak?
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Though I don't much like the inclusion of Christianity, the religion was supported by the mo'i themselves. Liholiho and Ka'ahumanu were very supportive of Christianity after they abolished the 'aikapu. Ka'ahumanu herself declared Christianity the official religion of Hawai'i. They must not have known the overall effects it would have, but it is a part of the history. So I think it is very important.
I agree with you that it is important to remember history, yet because the mo'i declared chrisitanity the official religion did not mean that it was completely supported by the people nor was it needed to improve our living conditions as Kanaka Maoli. The Monarchy had their own agenda too, for their benefit and to others detriment.... and there were many Ali'i that opposed the path of Nationalism, such as Kekuaokalani and his wife Manono, there were more but we dont hear of their stories because they were erased from history to completely establish the monarchy without resistance. Just because it happened does not mean we should readily accept it as complete or done and then just move on, we need to heal from this...
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This is clearly controversial both linguistically and cultural. At least give us an "opt-out" option.
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Specific religions should not be part of this course. A skill on Native Hawaiian beliefs, possibly, but there's no reason to make us learn how to speak about a Christian figure. Other language courses do not typically teach these things either, to my knowledge, unless they are culturally significant (see another comment here about Japanese's use of shrines in the lessons)
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I too would prefer to learn other words before learning a phrase like this, which I am fairly certain I will never use.
Now 34 time had to type little used polite greeting Iesu pu 'nuff already,
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If you add pū in the end of a sentence, does that mean "with you"? I don't really get the grammar behind it
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It is VERY idiomatic and the grammar and semantics are very much different from the original language. Learn them as phrases and file them away in a folder called "won't use" because these are not used on a daily basis by the Hawaiian language community.
Auwe no ho'i e ! Another Jesus blessing 35 times now. Perhaps I can finish this lesson without having to type this polte expression too many more times.
I would just use the basics I grew up with and say, ʻIesū me ʻoe.ʻ to mean, ʻJesus (be) with you.ʻ or ʻAkua me ʻoe, for ʻGod (be) with you.ʻ As far as the word, ʻBlessing(s).ʻ, I would say, ʻPōmaikaʻi.ʻ But this is just me and my manaʻo. Hoʻomaluhia a me Aloha. (Peace and Love)
Next 3 questions were about God and Jesus. Got 2 " right" by typing God instead of "wrong" for typing Gods or Diety and typing "Jesus be with you: instead of "Jesus blessings" unbiased linguistic issues.
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This should not be in the curriculum, period. I don't care if you're a hawaiian christian or aren't, fact of the matter is:
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This gives off a false portrayal of Hawaiian language and sayings being deeply intertwined with christianity.
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Regardless of what portion of native hawaiians may be christian, NOT ALL OF DUOLINGO'S USERS ARE. You are alienating so many users of different religions or no religion and making them uncomfortable having to learn these phrases as part of our language.
Never have I even heard these phrases used in the Hawaiian community, not ONCE. The team that decided this should be included needs a serious overview. This is the most unhawaiian thing I've encountered during this experience: a lack of considering the boundaries of your haumana, lack of respecting the different backgrounds your haumana may come from.
