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- Topic: Hawaiian >
- "Iesū pū."
60 Comments
If you're going to include western religion in the native tongue, you need to also include our kupuna, aumakua, and various deities. Westernizing and white washing the culture through language is pretty offensive.
I totally agree with you. I am white and i have longed for this course to learn the HAWAIAN culture, not the western one. Btw, i am not christian, so this words are of no use to me
These are nowhere near as common as an entire section devoted to them on Duolingo would suggest. In fact, in 21 years living in Hawai'i I never heard them ONCE. I just started seeing them used on Facebook here and there just a few years ago. You do not need to use these AT ALL if you do not want to. No one I know ever used them. It is nice and all to resurrect old words and phrases and grammar, but the glaring omission of please and you're welcome to use these phrases instead is disappointing.
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Sounds like a reasonable point to me on cultural grounds, though whether to include any of either set of words in the current beta mini-course is a question. But even on linguistic grounds, since the beta Hawaiian course currently teaches barely over 100 words or lexemes according to Duolingo's own statistics (as can be seen in duome.eu), one wonders seriously whether 'akua' and 'iesū' occur(red) so pervasively as to be included in the first 100 words one needs to learn Hawaiian linguistically and culturally, unless you're a missionary.
Zwickerman mentions their occurrence in early recordings of Hawaiian. Though I know nothing of these recordings, I had professional training in cultural and linguistic anthropology, so I have some grasp of what we might call potential sample or corpus bias (= representative of what, and not necessarily prejudice, per se). Who and how many were recorded, where, by whom, how, and in what type of context, recording format or with what agenda. Though the result is a historical record, it is a record in the first instance of those particular people someone happened to choose in that particular place, time, & context. If we are indeed talking about acoustic recordings, given early recording equipment, they are less likely to have been done as actual fieldwork in one or more culturally natural settings, etc. How representative are they of broader use of Hawaiian across variables of geographic separation, dialect, and degree of Western contact & acculturation? Only data from wider contexts, even if not contemporaneous with the recordings can help shed light on this.
I have searched previously on nupepa . org - the database of Hawaiian language newspapers, and I did not find one instance of their use. I only started seeing these expressions on Facebook in Hawaiian language groups within the past few years. I spent years learning Hawaiian and lived in Hawai'i 21 years. I never heard them once. When I asked in the groups about their exact meanings and such considering how idiomatic they are, I got a total brush off. Interesting to me to see such conversations here on Duolingo about them. These are not so commonly used that I would expect a separate topic devoted almost exclusively to them here, especially in a section called polite expressions that do not include the use of please, thank you, and you're welcome before any other expressions deemed basic etiquette by having its own section the way these do.
Brother it is refreshing to meet another Scholar in pursuit of deeper understanding and ALIVENESS. So in that way, may we continue to let our lives blossom and flourish with the tears of the Moon, the beckoning of the Stars, and the luch sea foam of the Sun, continue the journey my friend because my knowing of you is what invigorates me to learn more, MAHALO Na Aumatua, Mahalo Na Akua, Mahalo Na Tupuna, Aloha aku, Aloha mai, Malama aku, Malama, Mai, EŌ!
Please read "Facing The Spears of Change: The Life and Legacy of John Papa I`i" . This book references so much of what you are asking about and gives a detailed understanding of the plight of our language and the dominance of an epistemological overlay by Academic "Western" schooling... MAHALO for your inquisitiveness and your knowledge ALOHA
I agree. As a westerner, I don't travel to see more of the place where I started. It's great that there's finally a course for a Polynesian language, but let's leave the missionary stuff back in the 19th century.
YES, MAHALO iā`oe no kou leo! Thank you for your voice, for They Hear YOU...ALOHA
All offense intended...its a good thing the white man came to the islands. Christ means way more than any culture or tradition in the end... If not him, it doesnt matter what you choice or believe
I must say that just starting Hawaiian with Duolingo, I was shocked to see the use of the word Iesū used in the course. Whatever oneʻs thoughts on religion/Christianity or its origins in Hawaii or whether the alii, moi accepted it or not. There should be a disclaimer that Duolingo uses it without any real reason to do so. If it came in at some point later as part of history, or in cultural use for example like Japanese. "I am going to the shrine on New Yearʻs Eve" then it makes possible sense. "We visited a heiau yesterday". This introduction of Christian words reeks of Kamehameha Schoolsʻ indoctrination and varioius ʻōlelo kumu on island in Oahu who feel that the Lordʻs prayer is the best way to teach Hawaiian. The language of the islands is not Christian it is Hawaiian. There is an oral tradition that far supersedes the missionaries writing it down. So many people were excited to see Hawaiian on Duolingo but I wonder if they know about this path?
Okay look, I'm not going to argue the cultural or religious side of whether or not this phrase should be included in this course, but I am going to say: does anybody use this? I mean, I grew up in the immersion community, and I never once heard this spoken, ever. This is a really kind of weird phrase to have in there, when again, it ain't really used. I think it shows the bias of KS showing through(might get a bit of flack for saying that, but I think it's true).
Kāko‘o aku wau i kou wahi mana'o. I was at UH Mānoa for a decade and never heard these ONCE. 'A'ohe o'u ho'olohe mai i ho'okahi manawa. That said, just a couple years ago, I saw these in Hawaiian language Facebook groups. That is the only place I have encountered them. I looked in nupepa . org but I could not find one use of them. Someone said they are from recordings / from kūpuna who have used them as they learned it from church. Okay.... The Hawaiian language community at the universities have a habit of digging through source material for forgotten words and expressions and such and then putting them into use so 'ike is not lost. Maybe these are examples. So that leaves me with two doubts - 1 is why do these expressions get their own section to be taught to people all over the world as if they are common when that is not actually the case, and 2 why do they sound so hapa haole in construction and idiomatic meaning. They sound as authentic Hawaiian as Hau'oli lā hānau does, which is not much. I also agree with you about KS - very much a Christian organization influencing content to me. They put almost totally unused Christian expressions of uncertain origins in a topic called polite expressions and completely left out please, thank you very much, and you're welcome.
Speak from the heart and all will listen, I've grown up from reading this thread, ALOHA pū!
I have never ever heard anyone use this and I went to Kamehameha where we were forced to go to chapel every other week... so that's saying something.
For context for anyone unfamiliar: Kamehameha Schools was the sponsor and main programmer of the Hawaiian language phrases in Duolingo. They are a "Native Hawaiian christian school" whose students are required to attend chapel on campus every other week. As an alumni who has had to do so for six consecutive years, I have never even once heard this phrase, not from one of their priests, not spoken on campus, not from anyone who spoke at mass, not from teachers, not from administrators.
There is absolutely no frequency of use that justifies its inclusion in this course and its odd coming from the very organization who doesn't even use it. It should not be included. Period.
Bah if youre gonna cry about it go talk to the people at Duolingo...all you snowflakes on the island upset me, smh even crying about The Rock playing the Great King Kamehameha?! Thats whats wrong with everything today..political correctness
The phrases "Iesū pū" and "Ke Akua pū" are used by Christian Hawaiians when saying farewell to each other. They are very commonly heard among the poʻe Niʻihau.
There are plenty of people in the comments here saying that they don't use it or never heard it before. Christianity had a serious formative effect on Romance language-speaking countries, but neither French nor Spanish has anything like this lesson. It feels like attempted proselytizing on the part of the creators of the course, more than teaching anything about modern or historical indigenous Hawaiians. Please consider making it a bonus lesson, rather than an early required lesson.
A lot of Christian speak with this program, when does the Indigenous Belief come in I wonder?? Will they make room for the Native Speak?
This is clearly controversial both linguistically and cultural. At least give us an "opt-out" option.
Woww, this is is cool. Is this a common phrase? I didn't know Hawaiian was influenced by Christianity like this.
It is not a common phrase. People around me usually use the word pōmaika'i.
I agree, this is new. First time hearing it. Pomaika'i. (Difficulty using old phones with limited keyboard options ugh. Long vowel sound "mark" above the "o" )
That's how I feel about, "My aunt is a short woman." (He wahine pakole anikie?) Duolingo hammers you when there is a question you're not grasping.
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Specific religions should not be part of this course. A skill on Native Hawaiian beliefs, possibly, but there's no reason to make us learn how to speak about a Christian figure. Other language courses do not typically teach these things either, to my knowledge, unless they are culturally significant (see another comment here about Japanese's use of shrines in the lessons)
If you add pū in the end of a sentence, does that mean "with you"? I don't really get the grammar behind it
Pū is an interesting word. Some definitions for this usage of pū are: together, entirely, completely, also with, together with (from Pukui-Elbert Hawaiian Dictionary). It is often used as an "adverb" after "verbs" like hele, e.g. "E hele pū kākou" -> "Let's go together".
It can also be used after pronouns, for example, in the phrases "ʻO au pū" -> "Me too" and "Me ʻoe pū" -> "same to you [as in reply to a good wish]" (Pukui-Elbert Hawaiian Dictionary).
It is VERY idiomatic and the grammar and semantics are very much different from the original language. Learn them as phrases and file them away in a folder called "won't use" because these are not used on a daily basis by the Hawaiian language community.
I too would prefer to learn other words before learning a phrase like this, which I am fairly certain I will never use.
Though I don't much like the inclusion of Christianity, the religion was supported by the mo'i themselves. Liholiho and Ka'ahumanu were very supportive of Christianity after they abolished the 'aikapu. Ka'ahumanu herself declared Christianity the official religion of Hawai'i. They must not have known the overall effects it would have, but it is a part of the history. So I think it is very important.
I agree with you that it is important to remember history, yet because the mo'i declared chrisitanity the official religion did not mean that it was completely supported by the people nor was it needed to improve our living conditions as Kanaka Maoli. The Monarchy had their own agenda too, for their benefit and to others detriment.... and there were many Ali'i that opposed the path of Nationalism, such as Kekuaokalani and his wife Manono, there were more but we dont hear of their stories because they were erased from history to completely establish the monarchy without resistance. Just because it happened does not mean we should readily accept it as complete or done and then just move on, we need to heal from this...
I would just use the basics I grew up with and say, ʻIesū me ʻoe.ʻ to mean, ʻJesus (be) with you.ʻ or ʻAkua me ʻoe, for ʻGod (be) with you.ʻ As far as the word, ʻBlessing(s).ʻ, I would say, ʻPōmaikaʻi.ʻ But this is just me and my manaʻo. Hoʻomaluhia a me Aloha. (Peace and Love)
Building off the idea of opting in or out, I think this should go at the end of the tree. That way, it is an additional chapter the student of the language can learn on this short tree, but it won't alarm those who aren't going to learn everything offered.
Auwe no ho'i e ! Another Jesus blessing 35 times now. Perhaps I can finish this lesson without having to type this polte expression too many more times.
What the hell is with all the religious stuff? No one says this even though there are a lot of Hawaiians who are religious.
Now 34 time had to type little used polite greeting Iesu pu 'nuff already,
As a non-Christian, I'm definitely never going to say these phrases...
There seems to be a significant anti-Christian bias in this comment section that seems to follow older anthropological biases. The statistical facts are that Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders are among the most Christian people on earth by self-declared affiliation. To ignore their choices or to chalk it up to missionary brainwashing (of the 19th century no less) is to deny people's ongoing agency in choosing their own beliefs, ironically participating in a similar sort of brainwashing of which one accuses the missionaries. Westerners who want to learn other cultures in the 21st century and beyond better get used to the facts of growing, non-western, indigenous Christianities almost everywhere. If Christianity can be "Western" and not only Odin, Christianity can also be Chinese and not just the Dao.
And yet, there are native Hawaiians on these threads saying that these phrases are not common in everyday use. Make it a bonus lesson and label it as Christian phrases, rather than making it mandatory and trying to disguise it as polite phrases, which in other courses means "excuse me" and "nice to meet you."
If the Spanish and Italian courses don't include Jesus, Hawaiian doesn't need to mandate religion, either. Even if the course is sponsored by proselytizers.
And I concur with Jennifer. While it is true that Pacific Islanders including the kanaka maoli are largely Christian now, I must reiterate that one of the people working on this course has stated that these are used by a small minority of the native speaker population that almost no one else would ever have access to. So why teach phrases that a learner would almost certainly never hear? After all, I lived in Hawai‘i 21 years and met a couple of former Ni‘ihau residents, and never heard these one time. Further to that these are presented before other polite expressions such as You're welcome and Please and such. So sorry not sorry, brainwashing does not apply to these critiques.
I want to respond to this point, "one of the people working on this course has stated that these are used by a small minority of the native speaker population that almost no one else would ever have access to," because I feel that the phrasing you've used might mislead some people, although not through any willful intention to mislead, I'm sure. I've stated that these phrases are used by Niʻihau people and other Christian Hawaiians. You probably won't hear non-Christian Hawaiians saying these phrases much.
And although I do not create the main content of the course, I'm hopeful, also, that we might be able to include additional polite expressions (such as "noʻu ka hauʻoli" or "ʻaʻole pilikia") in this skill in our next iteration, and I will advocate for that.
Next 3 questions were about God and Jesus. Got 2 " right" by typing God instead of "wrong" for typing Gods or Diety and typing "Jesus be with you: instead of "Jesus blessings" unbiased linguistic issues.
If you are bothered by this phrase being taught in Duolingo, please refer to Hawaiian history and culture. The kapu system was abolished under the Kamehameha lineage and the majority of Hawaiians gravitated toward Christianity, which was a more pono kapu system of what is maika'i. This phrase is not religiously bias, but is simply apart cultural Hawaiian in the early 1900s, as found in Hawaiian recordings.
"Iesū pū!" (Blessings!) and "Iesū pū." (Jesus be with you.) will be hard for people to recognize if there is no distinction between the two apart from punctuations.
You are definitely expressing YOUR OWN opinion here about "the majority of Hawaiians gravitated toward Christianity, which was a more pono kapu system of what is maika'i." Nothing could be further from the truth...There were many Poe Kahiko, Makaainana and Ali`i alike that opposed exactly what you are talking about, Kekuaokalani and his wife Manono were two out of MANY...we don't hear or read the stories of other opposition and resistance because they were eradicated/put to death and then erased from written history to therefore give an AUTHORIZED version of history so the monarchy can continue without resistance. History is not static or fixed, there are ALWAYS MORE SIDES TO THE STORY...Just because it happened does not mean we should readily accept it as complete or done and then just move on, we need to heal from this...ALOHA PŪ
Mahalo nui loa for bringing in the other side of history! It truly enlightens others to know the full scope of our Hawaiian history. You are very right in regard to many ali'i and others desired the kapu system, but that was not the point. I suppose you are right in saying that statement was bias, however history shows that Hawaiians were not forced into Christianity, as what a lot of ignorant comments on these threads have demonstrated. People who want speak Hawaiian should know the cultural implications of these phrases. Should Duolingo remove these phrases, that would appease the offended; should Duolingo keep these phrases, people should know that this is not indoctrination, but is used by modern native Hawaiian speakers. Mahalo for your sentiments, but let's keep Duolingo Discussion forums for unbiased linguistic purposes only.
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Love this, at last this beautiful faith (which is appreciated by the Hawaian people) is given a small mention, what harm is it doing when it's a faith of forgiveness and grace? What harm did Jesus himself ever do (and Muslims and Buddists also believe Jesus lived and was kind).
