"Iesū pū!"

Translation:Jesus be with you!

5 months ago

63 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/tsuj1g1r1
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The debate is not whether religious expressions can become secular, quotidian ones, we know they do, but whether this is an actually common turn of phrase in Hawaiian that is void of religious connotations, like "adieu" or "adios", or whether it is only used by religious people, like English "God willing". I understand that the Christians in the comments feel this is an attack on their personal beliefs that they need to fend off, but you can be religious and still think this sentence is out of place.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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It is a very religious/Christian expression unlike Adios, and it is not as common as you would think because of its prominence here on Duolingo. In fact, in 21 years in Hawai'i I never once heard them.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zwickerman

If you are bothered by this phrase being taught in Duolingo, please refer to Hawaiian history and culture. The kapu system was abolished under the Kamehameha lineage and the majority of Hawaiians gravitated toward Christianity, which was a more pono kapu system of what is maika'i. This phrase is not religiously bias, but is simply apart cultural Hawaiian in the early 1900s, as found in Hawaiian recordings.

"Iesū pū!" (Blessings!) and "Iesū pū." (Jesus be with you.) will be hard for people to recognize if there is no distinction between the two apart from punctuations.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Oh I missed that last part. I'm just amused at the distinction you try to make in meaning between Iesū pū! Versus Iesū pū. So you are trying to say that the meaning changes depending on how loud you scream it at someone. Laugh Now I KNOW these are all just a bunch of useless hapahaole expressions pushed as a part of a Christian agenda. This is just an exercise in ridiculousness and the people who are pushing this nonsense are losing credibility with people. I will reiterate ... AGAIN .... that these are not used in daily conversation and not good Hawaiian. To spend 5 levels of practice on stuff pretty much no one no one uses and students will never use leads me to conclude that the title of this section should be Complete Waste of Time instead of Polite Expressions.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CharlesWil267432

Dude! Why are you so insecure? There is no band of Christians coming to take away your freedom. So calm the f*** down! Living in Hawai'i, there are many options for you to learn Hawaiian w/o being on this sight, especially just hanging with the people you claim to know who are every day conversationalists. So don't be a hater!

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Well gee. You don't have to cuss and get personal. No one said anything about "freedoms" either. So rude.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/captrien
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Why are you so butthurt? Lol Im not even religious but I dont mind this; not everything has to be part of its culture. Duo gives weird sentences that dont even make sense but are grammatically correct. Does that mean native speakers say them? No. Why should something with religion be an exception. It's not imposing us to be Christian. You're just overreacting. There's literally tons of words related to some god/religion and learning that os harmless. Stop whining.

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Not butthurt at all here. Why are YOU so butthurt at my critiques? I have explained my reasons in simple English, and if you cannot understand them, then I would kindly direct you to study English instead of Hawaiian.

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/captrien
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Really? I am butthurt? Who's been spamming everyone with "iTs a ChrIstiAn AgeNda" ?Regarding daily conversations I dont disagree with you but I already stated it doesn't matter since Duo already gives weird sentences in many languages Im learning that native speakers dont even say. So really there's nothing to worry about. Also this isnt a place to argue about religions. Who the hell cares man. This sentence doesnt make me believe in religions. You really have to calm down

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Calm down? LOL Funny! I have said that Christian agenda on this webpage only out of many. That does not equate to spamming everyone as your hyperbole states. These are not "weird sentences" like "O tatu fala inglês" for example. If you had been paying attention, not once did ANYONE on either side say that these are "weird sentences". If you had bothered to read attentively the critiques then you would know what the real issue with them would be. Please take my advice and study English instead of Hawaiian, since you have trouble understanding the points people are trying to make. I have been doing Hawaiian language way longer than you. So ....

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/captrien
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You resort to "learn English" when you can't see my point. You don't even know that I've spoken it all my life so choose another comeback lol. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO EMPHASISE IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO GIVES A CRAP. You keep saying I don't understand what you're saying, but it seems you yourself don't comprehend what I'm saying. THIS PHRASE OR ANYTHING SIMILAR WOULDNT CONVERT PEOPLE NOR DOES IT HAVE TO BE PART OF ITS CULTURE. If you expect Duo to be practical, or accurate about a language's culture, I am laughing. Yes I believe that these aren't in daily conversations; I never once thought Hawai'i was a christian country. In fact when I saw this I laughed and thought it's one of those funny sentences Duo can come up with. If it were my language, I wouldn't even bother at all. Unless Duo claims it to be part of its culture, then that is when I would start a rant. It's so harmless to see a phrase like this. AGAIN I am pretty sure, if you've been learning other languages on Duolingo too, some sentences they give are useless/not what people would normally say. Go ahead feel free to criticise, no one's saying you can't. I'm just saying there's no need to make it a big deal here when you can just give Duolingo a feedback about your concern. Also, doing a language longer than someone doesn't necessarily prove your knowledge. I've been speaking other languages longer than others and knowing more than them is not always the case. No need to flex haha. Anyway give it a rest. If it still bothers you right now, you can just tell the moderators/Duolingo directly ;-;

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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You resort to "weird sentences" when you fail to comprehend what the issue genuinely is. Again, your point is >>irrelevant<< to the discussion at hand. That means you 1) do not understand the original point or 2) do not know enough about the situation to even be interjecting yourself into it. So which is it???

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CharlesWil267432

Auwe no ho'i! Aren't you the one who is consistently warning everyone about the Christian agenda?! I thought so!

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Not one mention of "freedoms" from anyone. You are completely unhinged at this point. You are just nuha that you have an agenda, and I proved it.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CharlesWil267432

Aloha e Wickerman from three months ago! Mahalo a nui loa for your ike! I'm Conpletely on board with you, and I too will re-copy and re-post something I put on another thread: "Listen to this interview in which Kupuna Isaia Kealoha starts with a prayer invoking God through His son Jesus Christ, which the translator conveniently (on purpose) mistranslates, leaving out any reference to Jesus. Kupuna Isaia again talks about Jesus at the end of his talk. So why do some Hawaiians think that getting back to our Hawaiian roots means throwing out Christ. Why don't you throw out electricity too and cars and computers, and everything other good thing that you continue to use which our ancestors certainly did not have. Did our people stop thinking when they regained the use of there language back in the 70's??!!" The same goes for all the other old timers who were Manaleo Whose interviews are easy to come by. They all loved Christianinty-- a simple historical fact! https://vimeo.com/59457944

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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and I will gladly follow right behind and copy and re-post what I said there too -

That is an interview not a daily conversation. People do not typically start an informal conversation with Aloha! Iesū pū! E pule kāua.

Let's not be disingenuous and pretend that these phrases and sentences are commonplace in daily conversation. They are not. I would also like to point out that these >>phrases<<, which is what they are, are more like hapahaole speech. I have searched on nupepa org for these and have only ever found them as part of >>complete sentences<<, i.e. 'O Iesū pū me 'oe or 'O ke Akua pū me mākou. I will sidestep the question about throwing out Christianity altogether and assert instead that these should not be thrown out because they are Christian in origin, but because they are not widely used as this lesson would imply and because they are just not good Hawaiian anymore than Hau'oli lā hānau or 'okole maluna would be. If we are to dig through old newspapers and recordings to resurrect grammar and vocabulary to renew and repurpose, it would occur to my mind to resurrect appropriately used Hawaiian instead of ..... THIS.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CharlesWil267432

Mahalo! Akā... Hardly or never does one ever hear a number in the form of, for example, umikumama'iwa but rather umikuma'iwa. Why was there no rush to correct this? When there is an inconsistent out cry for righting wrongs in the language, one may really ask what is behind it. The sentiment of some of the posts seems not to be so much about righting the wrongs in the language but because some are just put off by Christianity. My point was that Christianity became very dear to our people and to our Ali'is. Use whatever expressions of greeting you want. I don't care. But don't lose it because they mention Jesus. To start using this greeting ( or the proper form of it) might do our people some good. E kakau ana wau i keia me ke aloha a me ka mahalo ia 'oe.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Amusing! kūmā vs kumamā is what is called a false equivalency. They are both accepted variations of the same thing, as offered in the dictionary, and I have heard both, as in with my own ears.
In 21 years of living in Hawai'i, I have never once heard anyone utter Iesū pū or Akua pū.... at all. Please do not be so disingenuous to imply by your defense that these are somehow in common use. That would give me and others the impression that you have an agenda. Kamehameha schools employee perhaps?? These infixes or prefixes that you offered are not hapahaole in their use either, which is another incorrect comparison. Thus, there is nothing to correct in their usage when there is nothing wrong with either. That said, you can take up your protest with those who advocate the secularization of these lessons. While I do not favor the removal of these expressions strictly because they are Christian, I do see an issue still with presenting a whole section on "polite expressions" that are little used now and questionable in both grammar and their frequency in source documents. As others have pointed out, if we are to be taught hapahaole expressions of etiquette, one would then conclude that please and you're welcome would be taught. In spite of the fact that these are more frequent, we are still waiting for these expressions like............................................................................................................................................................ Excuse me while I see the same Christian agenda that others see due to this glaring fact.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CharlesWil267432

Wow! That was uncalled for, and pretty random. So what do you have against Kamehameha folks? Maybe you feel their approach to Hawaiiana is in too stark contrast to the neo-pagan crowd down at UH, which I have experienced first hand "as with my own ears." But you know what, whatever hopes we may have for the resurgence of the Hawaiian language, it is still, after five decades of renaissance which started back in the 70's, a communities based language. DL did not dig up these phases out of thin air. If these phrases were introduced to them by the community of Kamehmeha students or teachers, they are still a community, and a very large one at that. Why don't you look into seeing whether or not those phrases were and are used by them. Something else you might want to consider, if Hawaiian is a living language, than DL could rightly consider introducing phases which non-Hawaiian people learning Hawaiian may want to use one day. Many people in other parts of the world do say things like "God bless you" and "Go with God" and "God's speed" and "Peace to all who live in this house" (meaning Christ's peace). Believe it or not!
And no, I am not a Kamehameha employee or student and never have been.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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I would also like to point out that I went to the same UH you did, and not surprisingly there were a multitude of Kamehameha grads there and not a single one of them ever uttered any of these. In fact, I have been to Kamehameha Schools Kapālama campus due to the possibility of doing student teaching there, among other times I visited. Again not a single person ever uttered these phrases on any of my visits. Not a single one. Please stop giving theoretics. This is a lesson on Hawaiian language, not on what others do elsewhere. It is just more disingenuous banter in defense of an obvious Christian agenda you do not want to admit exists.
I also find it notable and curious that no one has addressed the blatantly hapahaole nature of these expressions, that the only written examples in nupepa org indicate that they are past of entire sentences, instead of these noun phrases that stand in opposition to both grammar and verifiable usage. 'okole maluna is now considered appropriate Hawaiian now too then????? Please.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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There's nothing uncalled for in the truth. Kamehameha Schools are by definition a Protestant Christian institution. These are Christian expressions that are being pushed in place of polite expressions that are actually used on a daily basis like please and you're welcome, one can only conclude that there is a Christian agenda here and considering the people behind the lessons, the source would logically be Kamehameha Schools. I find it amusing that people who are so proudly Christian do not just admit their actions. Just saying.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

Brother why do you just keep copying and pasting your replies ALL over these discussions, SUPER trolly, again not appealing, overly aggressive and manipulative...Are you trying to gain converts? Missionize as many Duolingo threads as possible? Very Strange Behavior...ALOHA Pū

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zwickerman

I have commented on only three different threads because they all have the same type of discussions, but not all have the same necessary responses. If these matters are not addressed in one thread, the ignorance will perpetuate. I have also noticed you spewing your bias in different comments, cross-thread as well. No missionizing here, as it is our kuleana to help others understand our culture and language. If you are Hawaiian, I hope you would do the same in an unbiased manner in relation to the linguistic issues here on Duolingo, since this is a place to discuss linguistics. If you want to talk about morality and the effect of religion on linguistics, go on Twitter or Facebook and e 'olelo pilau. However, mahalo for desiring accountability in these discussion forums.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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If he is being pilau, then just report it as abuse. I have just come on to this conversation. He is only asking questions, and unfortunately, when you welcome questions and feedback, you do not get to pick and choose the feedback you get and you do not always get questions you want. Just because you disagree does not make it pilau. Please point out the specific things that are pilau then and a bit of ho'oponopono can then hopefully take place. That said, after ages of searching, I find the answer to my question - where do these expressions come from - that being from Mass or other church services. Ah okay. Somewhere else, I think you said they are "from recordings." I see. I still stand behind my comments elsewhere about these expressions, though. They are not commonly used, but here on Duolingo there is a whole section devoted solely to them, giving learners the impression that these are an active part of basic conversation in Hawai'i. Not the case. Additionally, considering I have never heard them at all in my 20 years in Hawai'i and only recently ran into them on Facebook, they come across to me as hapa haole like how Hau'oli lā hānau is hapa haole. I thought the Hawaiian language community as a collective decided to promote original language use as much as possible. I hau'oli kou lā piha makahiki instead of Hau'oli lā hānau for example. Again, I am asking questions like Kale, not being pilau. These may not be valid questions or doubts to you, but they are to me. Mahalo ā nui loa.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

MAHALO iā `oe no kou leo! I appreciate what you have written and am grateful for the understanding! The best questions are the ones that prompt more questions lol! Have a WONDERFUL day my Friend! ALOHA Pū

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tsuj1g1r1
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Wait, so are you a fluent Hawaiʻian speaker? If so, is Iesū pū something you use in everyday conversation? When? I still don't understand what "Blessings" is supposed to mean exactly?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zwickerman

I don't hear it much in everyday conversation now, but some kūpuna still do use this phrase and appreciate its usage. It's a residual phrase from the liturgical era when Hawaiian's went to Church services or Mass. (It is possible some versions of the Na Himeni O ka Ekalesia may have this saying as a benediction, thus my skepticism sways from stating this benediction as fact.) My thought in that Duolingo translates this as "Blessings" is to informally denote good wishes. Since it's a residual phrase, the speaker who says, "Jesus is completely/together with you" (exact translation of "Iesū pū") is to invoke good wishes/good will to another person (in an indirect and loosely religious denotation from the exact translation of "Iesū pū"). The reasoning behind it is similar to the above comments made by @clutchgrant.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tsuj1g1r1
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OK, thanks for the info then! :)

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Shell911153

Tsuj, no okina in the English word, "Hawaiian." It isn't a word in Kanaka maoli olelo

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

@zwickerman I see what you are saying, however I am not giving my own bias, Im replying directly to what you post, if you are going to present a one-sided version of history as being the rationale for these phrases, then I will attempt to express other perspectives that exist too, that say otherwise.

Your choosing to focus on a particular (I'll say again) AUTHORIZED version of history to boost your logic, yet I am writing about how erroneous that logic is, by saying that history is not EXACTLY as YOU choose to present it. Who is the one being biased? Who is the one making broad claims and generalizations about a People that have lived and are living to this very day?

Your say to me and I quote "If you want to talk about morality and the effect of religion on linguistics, go on Twitter or Facebook and e 'olelo pilau." Im not talking about morality and I wasn't the one who introduced religion into this, again you are projecting and implying what is NOT there. Why should I go to those other platforms, when you are the one I am addressing? I have been replying to your posts and that is all, this is not about morality or religion specifically, this is about giving those who read this discussion more reference points and the ability to think more broadly with diversity as the orientation.

I will again continue to ask the question as I have been doing, no exclusions simply a plea for INCLUSION...When does the Indigenous Belief, Philosophy and WORLDVIEW begin to show up on this app of Duolingo that reaches millions of people?? Aole olelo pilau, he nīnau wale nō... I kaōlelo no ke ola, I ka `ōlelo no ka make, We live and die by our word, We can be life-affirming with our language or we can be life-denying, We can bring an invitation for more life to exist or we can cut-off the life-line...No bias, no anger, no divisiveness, SIMPLY a question ALOHA Pū

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BrandonWon774161

No one ever uses "Iesū pū" for "blessings" in colloquial speech.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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I looked up these on nupepa . org and did not find them actually. I only found them as full sentences such as 'O ke Akua pū me mākou. instead of just ke Akua pū by itself. I stand behind my previous assessment of this entire section that these are some little-used, hapa haole phrases that should not be here, not because they are "Christian", but because of just that - they are not in general use and not good Hawaiian. 'O ia ko'u wahi mana'o.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lmeleana7997

Why?! Are there other languages that incorporate God and Jesus? This is not used in everyday language.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/clutchgrant
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I mean, "adios" in Spanish basically means "to God"; same thing with "adieu" in French (and Italian and Portuguese have similar words for goodbye that also translate "to God"). Even English has the word "godspeed" and the saying "God bless you" (after someone sneezes). Also, Arabic has the very common word/phrase "inshallah" that means "God willing". So, to answer your question: yes, there are many other languages that incorporate God.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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You are right in all those to answer her question. As for her statement after it, I concur. I have never heard these expressions before until they started appearing on Facebook in certain Hawaiian language groups on Facebook a few years ago.
They come across as very hapa haole (pidgin like) and not common.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

Read my previous reply to you

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/WitlessBittern
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I've seen references to Christianity, Islam, and atheism in other courses. There are probably others I haven't yet encountered. I think it's important to be able to recognize what these sentiments sound like even if not all of us share them, but I do understand that it's a sensitive subject for some. Personally, I'd like to see the inclusion of some indigenous religious words as well; as others have mentioned, it seems a bit silly to leave them out of a revitalization effort.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

Completely AGREE! MAHALO for speaking up!❤️

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/maka415

Why do we need to incorporate God and Jesus into these LANGUAGE lessons? Auē!

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/clutchgrant
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If we weren't able to incorporate God into language lessons, we would never learn "adios" and "adieu" in Spanish and French, respectively; both words are translated literally as "to God".

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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but Adieu and Adios are ways to say goodbye regardless of the words used. This section is straight up Christian, with the intent to express Christian sentiment, that being God and Jesus. The question that I have as well as others is not just the overtly Christian aspect of these phrases, but the devotion of an entire section to them when they are rarely used. Even their staunchest defender, zwickerman, acknowledged that the kupuna (elderly) would be the ones to use them and that the expressions came from liturgy. The overall population does not incorporate liturgical expressions in their daily conversations such that one would have people practice them in their own section. One would think that polite expressions would be please and thank you and you're welcome, but we are still waiting for please and you're welcome. Thank you is used exclusively for Thanks for the meeting, which has its own discussion for unusual context and lexical choices.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

I don't understand your point? your not answering her question just stating your knowledge...We could say other words that are just as meaningful in Spanish and French, why do we have to say things "to God"?? Let people be who they are stop trying to impose your religion upon them or try to rationalize your understanding onto them...Where is the acceptance of others beliefs and way of life??

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LongHenry
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maybe it isn't an imposition. perhaps to ask for the opposite is to impose atheism/secularism - not everyone wants that. in any case this is not the place to debate ethics. this forum is to report faulty translations/bad audio/grammar related questions.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

Says you? Why cant both happen? We are talking about language are we not? With language comes the world view, the spirit of a people, not just grammar and faulty translations my friend...I hear you though, ALOHA PŪ

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LongHenry
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because it is a part of the hawaiian culture and language? maybe?

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lmeleana7997

It is not a part of Hawaiian culture.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/maka415

This is a language lesson not how to incorporate religion into a language lesson. If it's okay to use God and Jesus in the lessons then why not Buddha or Allah? No one is attacking Christianity by asking God and Jesus to be omitted from language learning. You have your home, churches, and places of worship to freely practice your religion. I didn't sign up to learn about anyone's religion as matter of fact.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/clutchgrant
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Right! Like, in the upcoming Arabic course, the very common word/phrase "Inshallah" needs to be left out because it means "God willing", and many people who don't like religion would have a hard time seeing that on the screen without feeling discomfort.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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insh'Allah is commonly heard and an integral part of the language and culture. While the majority of Native Hawaiians are Christian, these hapahaole Christian expressions are not actually in common use.

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kale333901

So true MAHALO for speaking up Kū Kanaka!❤️

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Shell911153

I was surprised to see that in the Hawaiian language, using Iesu pu was akin to God Bless, I got this question wrong, and thought it should have been, "Jesus be with you." Jesus is a particular god, not the same as akua.

It seems, it would only be used by Christian hawaiian speakers. So it is odd that it was included in lesson. In 1825, maybe most hawaiian language Christians switched to saying this (with encouragement of missionaries), but I would guess others did not use this, but stuck with the akua pu.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KaikeAkama

Earlier you mentioned other languages BUT that is OTHER languages NOT THIS ONE.... you totally fail because It is like YOU are converting this language to your OWN.. LIKE the missionaries did, here,this web site is free But you are still doing a HUGE DISRESPECT and DISSERVICE to misrepresent the ACTUAL Hawaiian language and culture. What happened to LONO, KU, KANE, and Kanaloa.? Please take out this lesu pu

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CharlesWil267432

Our ruling ali'is got rid of them and showed them to be nothing, as was the case when Kapiolani defied the so call volcano goddess and nothing happened. Or is this not part of "your" Hawaiian history?

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KaikeAkama

look at the spelling Iesu, and Jesus so similar..... did you know that the written Hawaiian language was created by Christians? fact

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Jesus too! is a literal translation.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sheshesh
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Meanwhile... why KE akua pū, and (no ke) iesū pū???

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kelii....
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Iesū is a proper name and as such does not require the word the. Akua is considered a noun in Hawaiian and needs the article ke in front of it.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sheshesh
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Mahalo, have a lingot :)

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnnikaFiercely
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Why is it 'ke Akua pu' but just 'Iesu pu'? What is 'ke' for?

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AnnikaFiercely
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Never mind, found the answer at the end of the religious debate, not sure how to delete from phone

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/thabrain3
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Not sure it’s appropriate to just teach Hawaiian words that promote Christianity and leave out all other religions.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RonRGB
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Iesū https://manomano.io/definition/10104

[PE] 1 nJesus. [probably Heb Yeshua]

1 week ago

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