"Iesū pū!"

Translation:Jesus be with you!

October 6, 2018

62 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tsuj1g1r1

The debate is not whether religious expressions can become secular, quotidian ones, we know they do, but whether this is an actually common turn of phrase in Hawaiian that is void of religious connotations, like "adieu" or "adios", or whether it is only used by religious people, like English "God willing". I understand that the Christians in the comments feel this is an attack on their personal beliefs that they need to fend off, but you can be religious and still think this sentence is out of place.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

It is a very religious/Christian expression unlike Adios, and it is not as common as you would think because of its prominence here on Duolingo. In fact, in 21 years in Hawai'i I never once heard them.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maui_Bartlett

The phrases "Iesū pū" and "ke Akua pū" are used by Christian Hawaiians when saying farewell to each other. They absolutely have a religious connotation, and are very commonly heard among the poʻe Niʻihau.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zwickerman

If you are bothered by this phrase being taught in Duolingo, please refer to Hawaiian history and culture. The kapu system was abolished under the Kamehameha lineage and the majority of Hawaiians gravitated toward Christianity, which was a more pono kapu system of what is maika'i. This phrase is not religiously bias, but is simply apart cultural Hawaiian in the early 1900s, as found in Hawaiian recordings.

"Iesū pū!" (Blessings!) and "Iesū pū." (Jesus be with you.) will be hard for people to recognize if there is no distinction between the two apart from punctuations.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oberon1231

Um...no. i am Kanaka 'oiwi and not Christian nobody in my family uses this greeting. It is very religiously bias.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

Oh I missed that last part. I'm just amused at the distinction you try to make in meaning between Iesū pū! Versus Iesū pū. So you are trying to say that the meaning changes depending on how loud you scream it at someone. Laugh Now I KNOW these are all just a bunch of useless hapahaole expressions pushed as a part of a Christian agenda. This is just an exercise in ridiculousness and the people who are pushing this nonsense are losing credibility with people. I will reiterate ... AGAIN .... that these are not used in daily conversation and not good Hawaiian. To spend 5 levels of practice on stuff pretty much no one no one uses and students will never use leads me to conclude that the title of this section should be Complete Waste of Time instead of Polite Expressions.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CharlesWil267432

Aloha e Wickerman from three months ago! Mahalo a nui loa for your ike! I'm Conpletely on board with you, and I too will re-copy and re-post something I put on another thread: "Listen to this interview in which Kupuna Isaia Kealoha starts with a prayer invoking God through His son Jesus Christ, which the translator conveniently (on purpose) mistranslates, leaving out any reference to Jesus. Kupuna Isaia again talks about Jesus at the end of his talk. So why do some Hawaiians think that getting back to our Hawaiian roots means throwing out Christ. Why don't you throw out electricity too and cars and computers, and everything other good thing that you continue to use which our ancestors certainly did not have. Did our people stop thinking when they regained the use of there language back in the 70's??!!" The same goes for all the other old timers who were Manaleo Whose interviews are easy to come by. They all loved Christianinty-- a simple historical fact! https://vimeo.com/59457944


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

and I will gladly follow right behind and copy and re-post what I said there too -

That is an interview not a daily conversation. People do not typically start an informal conversation with Aloha! Iesū pū! E pule kāua.

Let's not be disingenuous and pretend that these phrases and sentences are commonplace in daily conversation. They are not. I would also like to point out that these >phrases<<, which is what they are, are more like hapahaole speech. I have searched on nupepa org for these and have only ever found them as part of >complete sentences<<, i.e. 'O Iesū pū me 'oe or 'O ke Akua pū me mākou. I will sidestep the question about throwing out Christianity altogether and assert instead that these should not be thrown out because they are Christian in origin, but because they are not widely used as this lesson would imply and because they are just not good Hawaiian anymore than Hau'oli lā hānau or 'okole maluna would be. If we are to dig through old newspapers and recordings to resurrect grammar and vocabulary to renew and repurpose, it would occur to my mind to resurrect appropriately used Hawaiian instead of ..... THIS.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kuualoha.

I grew up hearing both phrases commonly used amongst Christian Hawaiians (typically older Hawaiians) including by my Aunt Kawena Pukui who wrote (in part) the Hawaiian dictionary as well as maaaaany other literature, mele & oli. It was used in place of goodbye, they would say it to one another when leaving church & also when running into each other outside of church. Your argument that these phrases are not “good Hawaiian”, such as your examples of hau’oli Lā Hānau and ‘ōkole maluna also not being “good Hawaiian” seem contradictory as both of those examples are VERY commonly used modernly and accepted AS ‘ōlelo Hawai’i. Languages modernize, “Iesū pū” & “Ke Akua pū” are examples of that just as “hau’oli lā hānau” is an example of that & just like the biblical names that are VERY commonly used today, such as Kāwika, Kamuela, Kaniela, Ioane, Iokepa, Noa etc etc are examples of that. Whether you want to accept it or not Christianity became the vastly dominant belief system and the belief in the old gods became viewed as antiquated and primitive to the point that for the most part it ceased to be practiced. Likewise there weren’t phrases used in “polite expressions” that included the old gods because that was not a Hawaiian mana’o, their blessings or their being “with you” were viewed as a foregone conclusion, an assumption, therefore it was not necessary to verbally express it casually in comversation. Iesū pū & Ke Akua pū however WERE used (& seems to be getting revitalized). Although I DO agree that there are much more common/basic “polite expressions” that should have been taught before Iesū pū & Ke Akua pū.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pohaikealoha

If anyone is wondering why such phrases are included... the real reason is that Kamehameha Schools is in charge of the duolingo ‘ōlelo Hawai‘i program.

Unfortunately, Kamehameha, whether we (even as students and alumni) like it or not, is a Christian organization. Lately, they have been pushing Christianity in almost all of their initiatives.

I recently attended a Board & Stone orientation, which is one of their community capacity-building initiatives, and they conflate hawaiian culture with christianity so much that they start to teach false culture. My sister and I looked at eachother as the instructor told all of us to write a thank you prayer to god/jesus as part of our protocol for gathering materials. Traditionally, and for many kanaka maoli, our thank you protocols go to the land itself, the material itself, the animal itself, or the akua of that area. The Kamehameha kumu do not teach such protocols when these are the hawaiian protocols.

As such, we have Kamehameha kupuna planning the Duolingo curriculum to include phrases they use, regardless of how very uncommon these phrases are in our culture. If a church were in charge of Duolingo's English curriculum, they'd probably do the same. I don't agree with it, but I wanted to put forth the reason.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

Mahalo i kou wahi mana‘o e Pohaikealoha. Minamina nō! The Hawaiian language and culture can only be found in ONE place. With the passing of every kupuna goes a library of knowledge. How regrettable to toss traditional Hawaiian language chants to the side to compose a prayer to a post-contact deity. That alone leaves me feeling confused in that the very nature of Protestant Christian prayer is upended and infused with non-Christian structure. That makes me feel like that employee was not respecting the nature of prayer - since when do we as Christians write prayers to recite and rote mantras to Jesus??? What happened to feeling the spirit and speaking from the heart and having that conversation with God?? They muddy the waters of their own religion by doing that.

Mahalo, ‘a‘ole to that haku pule Kalikiano. The traditional chants need to be taught and not lost forever. The traditional oli ‘ōlelo Hawai‘i from the na‘au needs to be passed down. It is the connection between the kanaka and the ‘āina as well as the kūpuna who have meticulously guarded this treasure called Hawaiian language & culture.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elli433961

This is so heartbreaking.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maka415

Why do we need to incorporate God and Jesus into these LANGUAGE lessons? Auē!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maka415

This is a language lesson not how to incorporate religion into a language lesson. If it's okay to use God and Jesus in the lessons then why not Buddha or Allah? No one is attacking Christianity by asking God and Jesus to be omitted from language learning. You have your home, churches, and places of worship to freely practice your religion. I didn't sign up to learn about anyone's religion as matter of fact.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/morgainelafee

Completely agree. It's beyond inappropriate, especially when they haven't bothered to include any references to native Hawaiian religion. I'd rather learn how to say "May the force be with you" in Hawaiian.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KumuLokahi

Ka mana pū! ; )


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrandonWon774161

No one ever uses "Iesū pū" for "blessings" in colloquial speech.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kilinoe

Gross...don't force religious speech on others. I'm trying to learn my native language not go to Bible study.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RohaaLange

I really dont appreciate the heavy religious tones in this lesson, these are not words i will ever use and there are many many other amazing hawaian words id like to be learning at this stage.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andie_Prada

As a foreigner, who has lived in hawai'i and also took some hawaiian during college, i think that including a western religious greeting is kinda strange. My kumu never ever taught us this and i never heard of this as a greeting in my 4.5 years in hawai'i, so to teach others that this is a common phrase is very misleading. Not only that, but i have family there and my great great grandmother was there during the English occupation. She was fending off the English with her cane when they tried to make her leave her home. As a third party viewer, i find it more "offensive" to pretend that hawaiian is not a language that originates from a place and created by a wonderful people who had everything taken away from them by another nation. They had their traditions, culture, language and religion taken away from them. They weren't allowed to speak their native language and their gods were pushed aside for this new almighty "God". So when i see people not understanding that teaching us non colloquial Christian greetings might be offensive or wrong to someone, it is clear that there is a need for a history lesson too. Yes, most hawaiians adopted their new religion and are Christians but this is no part of the old "authentic" hawaiian culture. We have the privilege of learning a language that barely any locals speak fluently anymore, for the same reason that some of them are now uttering greetings like Iesū pū... also, "s" isn't a letter that exists in the hawaiian alphabet so that just makes it worse for me. Proving to me that it is NOT a true hawaiian phrase. To me, it feels kind of wrong to call this a hawaiian greeting, but i do understand that there are many Christian hawaiians in modern day hawai'i. That's my two cents


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lmeleana7997

Why?! Are there other languages that incorporate God and Jesus? This is not used in everyday language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WitlessBittern

I've seen references to Christianity, Islam, and atheism in other courses. There are probably others I haven't yet encountered. I think it's important to be able to recognize what these sentiments sound like even if not all of us share them, but I do understand that it's a sensitive subject for some. Personally, I'd like to see the inclusion of some indigenous religious words as well; as others have mentioned, it seems a bit silly to leave them out of a revitalization effort.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clutchgrant

I mean, "adios" in Spanish basically means "to God"; same thing with "adieu" in French (and Italian and Portuguese have similar words for goodbye that also translate "to God"). Even English has the word "godspeed" and the saying "God bless you" (after someone sneezes). Also, Arabic has the very common word/phrase "inshallah" that means "God willing". So, to answer your question: yes, there are many other languages that incorporate God.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

You are right in all those to answer her question. As for her statement after it, I concur. I have never heard these expressions before until they started appearing on Facebook in certain Hawaiian language groups on Facebook a few years ago.
They come across as very hapa haole (pidgin like) and not common.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kale333901

Completely AGREE! MAHALO for speaking up!❤️


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Susan_Skelly

Why am I being taught this?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

because the writers are in part employees of a Christian slanted private school and they are pretending like these expressions are in wide and common usage.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shellyb67

I was surprised to see that in the Hawaiian language, using Iesu pu was akin to God Bless, I got this question wrong, and thought it should have been, "Jesus be with you." Jesus is a particular god, not the same as akua.

It seems, it would only be used by Christian hawaiian speakers. So it is odd that it was included in lesson. In 1825, maybe most hawaiian language Christians switched to saying this (with encouragement of missionaries), but I would guess others did not use this, but stuck with the akua pu.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talmerian

How is this polite? Keep your proselytizing to yourself Duolingo. This is a white supremacist colonialist statement and has no place in my language learning. This is inspiration to not upgrade to Pro, for sure. How is there no option to report this offensive question as offensive?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeNerdDePokemon

Again, christianity is not white supremacy. Anyone can be a christian.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YourOldPalBendy

If we're gonna learn about Christian terms I wanna learn about Hawaiian spiritual terms and other similar things too. :0

Let's teach people about mahu! We need to keep it from being forgotten.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/thabrain3

Not sure it’s appropriate to just teach Hawaiian words that promote Christianity and leave out all other religions.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KaikeAkama

look at the spelling Iesu, and Jesus so similar..... did you know that the written Hawaiian language was created by Christians? fact


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/roses4cynthia1

Im jewish why does duolingo have to have relgious


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/StephenBartlett

Focusing on religious phrases when there is so much to learn about the language seems inefficient and not ideal. In the other languages I have studied for 3 or more years in Duolingo , Spanish and German, I have not yet spent time learning phrases such as Jesus be with you, yet these countries and cultures have a much longer historical Christian interaction than Hawaii. Spending initial learning experience on these phrases for many reasons doesn't seem efficient and effective use of learners time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kilinoe

Agree this shouldn't have to be discussed and we wouldn't be discussing it if doulingo would do the right thing and REMOVE ALL RELIGIOUS speech from its lessons. Have a random side cause for whatever religion you believe in...click it...then choose the language you are interested in learning it. Boom problem solved. And then that would create religious equality instead of only having Christian sayings......thats an even bigger problem that hasn't been addressed.....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KaikeAkama

Earlier you mentioned other languages BUT that is OTHER languages NOT THIS ONE.... you totally fail because It is like YOU are converting this language to your OWN.. LIKE the missionaries did, here,this web site is free But you are still doing a HUGE DISRESPECT and DISSERVICE to misrepresent the ACTUAL Hawaiian language and culture. What happened to LONO, KU, KANE, and Kanaloa.? Please take out this lesu pu


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

Sure that is a matter of historical record but so is the fact that the Republic of Hawai'i made schools English only and punished students for speaking Hawaiian, which is how we arrived at this point where kanaka maoli have to use computers not parents to learn their ancestral language. So along your faulty train of thought Charles, shall we then redo that part of history as well????


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

Jesus too! is a literal translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sevi666

It is very demotivating to have to learn phrases which are very uncommon and clearly there more for political reasons (to promote christianity). This is very akin to the colonial missionary practices. We help you, IF you learn about our religion as well. There is nothing Aloha about that...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sheshesh

Meanwhile... why KE akua pū, and (no ke) iesū pū???


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

Iesū is a proper name and as such does not require the word the. Akua is considered a noun in Hawaiian and needs the article ke in front of it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sheshesh

Mahalo, have a lingot :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnikaFiercely

Why is it 'ke Akua pu' but just 'Iesu pu'? What is 'ke' for?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maui_Bartlett

Because akua is a "common noun", it usually has a noun marker in front of it. The common way to express "God", with a capital G, in Hawaiian is with "ke Akua" (with a capital A). When referring to other akua, a lower case a is the norm. Iesū is a name, so it doesn't appear with a regular noun marker in front of it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnikaFiercely

Never mind, found the answer at the end of the religious debate, not sure how to delete from phone


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RonRGB

pū (link): https://manomano.io/definition/33242

adj. With; together with; along with; in company; ku pu, to stand together; like pu, just alike.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maui_Bartlett

Pū is an interesting word. Some definitions for this usage of pū are: together, entirely, completely, also with, together with (from Pukui-Elbert Hawaiian Dictionary). It is often used as an "adverb" after "verbs" like hele, e.g. "E hele pū kākou" -> "Let's go together".

It can also be used after pronouns, for example, in the phrases "ʻO au pū" -> "Me too" and "Me ʻoe pū" -> "same to you [as in reply to a good wish]" (Pukui-Elbert Hawaiian Dictionary).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nani1892

Many Portuguese migrated to Hawaii in the 1900's. Today, many Hawaii natives are mixed with some or little Portuguese ancestry, as well as the Polynesian. The portuguese were Christian, so eould explain a lot.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/475.ColpOUPUnBoM

Finally, a use for "ʻaʻole i kēia lā satani" (google translate uses ʻo sātana) when it comes to proselytizing on Duo. As a grammar lesson, can I substitute someone a little less odious? Would "Lionel Richie pū" work? (that dulcet voice was the only thing keeping me sane in the 80s ... well, that and everlasting gobstoppers, it was in middle school)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RonRGB

Some Hawaiian Dictionaries

Iesū

(Link) https://manomano.io/definition/10104

(Link) http://wehewehe.org/gsdl2.85/cgi-bin/hdict?a=q&r=1&hs=1&m=-1&o=-1&e=d-11000-00---off-0hdict--00-1----0-10-0---0---0direct-10-ED--4-------0-1lpm--11-en-Zz-1---Zz-1-home-kama--00-3-1-00-0--4----0-0-11-00-0utfZz-8-00&q=Iesū&j=pm&af=1&fqf=ED

[PE] 1 n Jesus. [probably Heb Yeshua]

The online Hawaiian dictionaries had almost no information on this name. There are many times when one can find useful information and gain additional insights when looking up words in a dictionary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alphagalactic

I agree, very religos


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mick297287

not talking about biliefs here, i just wanted to know something : when do we know how to pronounce that L ??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kelii....

Oh that is another pet peeve of mine in general, not about Duolingo or anything. That first letter in Iesū is a capital i not a lower case L. The trend away from fonts with serifs means that such things are difficult to discern. #TimesNewRomanForever


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeaceForce

Sorry if I missed any relevant points in the long thread, but whatever one's conception of Divinity, if any, invoking "(Ke) Akua" rather than "Iesu" would be less problematic from an interfaith and/or dialectical standpoint. The former name is arguably interpretable as either "(the) Almighty" or "(the) [Higher] Power" to persons of different religious beliefs, preferences or affiliations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atua.

For those who want to get around all religions and any idea of a god(dess), I imagine that Hawaiian can utilize relatively secular benedictions approximating "may you be protected," "...blessed," "...blissed-out," or "...[fill in blank]."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joopitur-

Okay, I'm a little less ticked off now!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeNerdDePokemon

Could we please leave this comment section for discussion on the language, not have a religon debate?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Charlie349959cat

Whoa long comments, also Duo the owl does not annimate.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Charlie349959cat

Hehe I posted, like, three copies

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