The debate is not whether religious expressions can become secular, quotidian ones, we know they do, but whether this is an actually common turn of phrase in Hawaiian that is void of religious connotations, like "adieu" or "adios", or whether it is only used by religious people, like English "God willing". I understand that the Christians in the comments feel this is an attack on their personal beliefs that they need to fend off, but you can be religious and still think this sentence is out of place.
If you are bothered by this phrase being taught in Duolingo, please refer to Hawaiian history and culture. The kapu system was abolished under the Kamehameha lineage and the majority of Hawaiians gravitated toward Christianity, which was a more pono kapu system of what is maika'i. This phrase is not religiously bias, but is simply apart cultural Hawaiian in the early 1900s, as found in Hawaiian recordings.
"Iesū pū!" (Blessings!) and "Iesū pū." (Jesus be with you.) will be hard for people to recognize if there is no distinction between the two apart from punctuations.
Aloha e Wickerman from three months ago! Mahalo a nui loa for your ike! I'm Conpletely on board with you, and I too will re-copy and re-post something I put on another thread: "Listen to this interview in which Kupuna Isaia Kealoha starts with a prayer invoking God through His son Jesus Christ, which the translator conveniently (on purpose) mistranslates, leaving out any reference to Jesus. Kupuna Isaia again talks about Jesus at the end of his talk. So why do some Hawaiians think that getting back to our Hawaiian roots means throwing out Christ. Why don't you throw out electricity too and cars and computers, and everything other good thing that you continue to use which our ancestors certainly did not have. Did our people stop thinking when they regained the use of there language back in the 70's??!!" The same goes for all the other old timers who were Manaleo Whose interviews are easy to come by. They all loved Christianinty-- a simple historical fact! https://vimeo.com/59457944
and I will gladly follow right behind and copy and re-post what I said there too -
That is an interview not a daily conversation. People do not typically start an informal conversation with Aloha! Iesū pū! E pule kāua.
Let's not be disingenuous and pretend that these phrases and sentences are commonplace in daily conversation. They are not. I would also like to point out that these >phrases<<, which is what they are, are more like hapahaole speech. I have searched on nupepa org for these and have only ever found them as part of >complete sentences<<, i.e. 'O Iesū pū me 'oe or 'O ke Akua pū me mākou. I will sidestep the question about throwing out Christianity altogether and assert instead that these should not be thrown out because they are Christian in origin, but because they are not widely used as this lesson would imply and because they are just not good Hawaiian anymore than Hau'oli lā hānau or 'okole maluna would be. If we are to dig through old newspapers and recordings to resurrect grammar and vocabulary to renew and repurpose, it would occur to my mind to resurrect appropriately used Hawaiian instead of ..... THIS.
Mahalo! Akā... Hardly or never does one ever hear a number in the form of, for example, umikumama'iwa but rather umikuma'iwa. Why was there no rush to correct this? When there is an inconsistent out cry for righting wrongs in the language, one may really ask what is behind it. The sentiment of some of the posts seems not to be so much about righting the wrongs in the language but because some are just put off by Christianity. My point was that Christianity became very dear to our people and to our Ali'is. Use whatever expressions of greeting you want. I don't care. But don't lose it because they mention Jesus. To start using this greeting ( or the proper form of it) might do our people some good. E kakau ana wau i keia me ke aloha a me ka mahalo ia 'oe.
Amusing! kūmā vs kumamā is what is called a false equivalency. They are both accepted variations of the same thing, as offered in the dictionary, and I have heard both, as in with my own ears.
In 21 years of living in Hawai'i, I have never once heard anyone utter Iesū pū or Akua pū.... at all. Please do not be so disingenuous to imply by your defense that these are somehow in common use. That would give me and others the impression that you have an agenda. Kamehameha schools employee perhaps?? These infixes or prefixes that you offered are not hapahaole in their use either, which is another incorrect comparison. Thus, there is nothing to correct in their usage when there is nothing wrong with either. That said, you can take up your protest with those who advocate the secularization of these lessons. While I do not favor the removal of these expressions strictly because they are Christian, I do see an issue still with presenting a whole section on "polite expressions" that are little used now and questionable in both grammar and their frequency in source documents. As others have pointed out, if we are to be taught hapahaole expressions of etiquette, one would then conclude that please and you're welcome would be taught. In spite of the fact that these are more frequent, we are still waiting for these expressions like............................................................................................................................................................ Excuse me while I see the same Christian agenda that others see due to this glaring fact.
There's nothing uncalled for in the truth. Kamehameha Schools are by definition a Protestant Christian institution. These are Christian expressions that are being pushed in place of polite expressions that are actually used on a daily basis like please and you're welcome, one can only conclude that there is a Christian agenda here and considering the people behind the lessons, the source would logically be Kamehameha Schools. I find it amusing that people who are so proudly Christian do not just admit their actions. Just saying.
I would also like to point out that I went to the same UH you did, and not surprisingly there were a multitude of Kamehameha grads there and not a single one of them ever uttered any of these. In fact, I have been to Kamehameha Schools Kapālama campus due to the possibility of doing student teaching there, among other times I visited. Again not a single person ever uttered these phrases on any of my visits. Not a single one. Please stop giving theoretics. This is a lesson on Hawaiian language, not on what others do elsewhere. It is just more disingenuous banter in defense of an obvious Christian agenda you do not want to admit exists.
I also find it notable and curious that no one has addressed the blatantly hapahaole nature of these expressions, that the only written examples in nupepa org indicate that they are past of entire sentences, instead of these noun phrases that stand in opposition to both grammar and verifiable usage. 'okole maluna is now considered appropriate Hawaiian now too then????? Please.
Oh I missed that last part. I'm just amused at the distinction you try to make in meaning between Iesū pū! Versus Iesū pū. So you are trying to say that the meaning changes depending on how loud you scream it at someone. Laugh Now I KNOW these are all just a bunch of useless hapahaole expressions pushed as a part of a Christian agenda. This is just an exercise in ridiculousness and the people who are pushing this nonsense are losing credibility with people. I will reiterate ... AGAIN .... that these are not used in daily conversation and not good Hawaiian. To spend 5 levels of practice on stuff pretty much no one no one uses and students will never use leads me to conclude that the title of this section should be Complete Waste of Time instead of Polite Expressions.
If anyone is wondering why such phrases are included... the real reason is that Kamehameha Schools is in charge of the duolingo ‘ōlelo Hawai‘i program.
Unfortunately, Kamehameha, whether we (even as students and alumni) like it or not, is a Christian organization. Lately, they have been pushing Christianity in almost all of their initiatives.
I recently attended a Board & Stone orientation, which is one of their community capacity-building initiatives, and they conflate hawaiian culture with christianity so much that they start to teach false culture. My sister and I looked at eachother as the instructor told all of us to write a thank you prayer to god/jesus as part of our protocol for gathering materials. Traditionally, and for many kanaka maoli, our thank you protocols go to the land itself, the material itself, the animal itself, or the akua of that area. The Kamehameha kumu do not teach such protocols when these are the hawaiian protocols.
As such, we have Kamehameha kupuna planning the Duolingo curriculum to include phrases they use, regardless of how very uncommon these phrases are in our culture. If a church were in charge of Duolingo's English curriculum, they'd probably do the same. I don't agree with it, but I wanted to put forth the reason.
I was surprised to see that in the Hawaiian language, using Iesu pu was akin to God Bless, I got this question wrong, and thought it should have been, "Jesus be with you." Jesus is a particular god, not the same as akua.
It seems, it would only be used by Christian hawaiian speakers. So it is odd that it was included in lesson. In 1825, maybe most hawaiian language Christians switched to saying this (with encouragement of missionaries), but I would guess others did not use this, but stuck with the akua pu.
This is a language lesson not how to incorporate religion into a language lesson. If it's okay to use God and Jesus in the lessons then why not Buddha or Allah? No one is attacking Christianity by asking God and Jesus to be omitted from language learning. You have your home, churches, and places of worship to freely practice your religion. I didn't sign up to learn about anyone's religion as matter of fact.
but Adieu and Adios are ways to say goodbye regardless of the words used. This section is straight up Christian, with the intent to express Christian sentiment, that being God and Jesus. The question that I have as well as others is not just the overtly Christian aspect of these phrases, but the devotion of an entire section to them when they are rarely used. Even their staunchest defender, zwickerman, acknowledged that the kupuna (elderly) would be the ones to use them and that the expressions came from liturgy. The overall population does not incorporate liturgical expressions in their daily conversations such that one would have people practice them in their own section. One would think that polite expressions would be please and thank you and you're welcome, but we are still waiting for please and you're welcome. Thank you is used exclusively for Thanks for the meeting, which has its own discussion for unusual context and lexical choices.
I've seen references to Christianity, Islam, and atheism in other courses. There are probably others I haven't yet encountered. I think it's important to be able to recognize what these sentiments sound like even if not all of us share them, but I do understand that it's a sensitive subject for some. Personally, I'd like to see the inclusion of some indigenous religious words as well; as others have mentioned, it seems a bit silly to leave them out of a revitalization effort.
I mean, "adios" in Spanish basically means "to God"; same thing with "adieu" in French (and Italian and Portuguese have similar words for goodbye that also translate "to God"). Even English has the word "godspeed" and the saying "God bless you" (after someone sneezes). Also, Arabic has the very common word/phrase "inshallah" that means "God willing". So, to answer your question: yes, there are many other languages that incorporate God.
You are right in all those to answer her question. As for her statement after it, I concur. I have never heard these expressions before until they started appearing on Facebook in certain Hawaiian language groups on Facebook a few years ago.
They come across as very hapa haole (pidgin like) and not common.
Earlier you mentioned other languages BUT that is OTHER languages NOT THIS ONE.... you totally fail because It is like YOU are converting this language to your OWN.. LIKE the missionaries did, here,this web site is free But you are still doing a HUGE DISRESPECT and DISSERVICE to misrepresent the ACTUAL Hawaiian language and culture. What happened to LONO, KU, KANE, and Kanaloa.? Please take out this lesu pu
Sure that is a matter of historical record but so is the fact that the Republic of Hawai'i made schools English only and punished students for speaking Hawaiian, which is how we arrived at this point where kanaka maoli have to use computers not parents to learn their ancestral language. So along your faulty train of thought Charles, shall we then redo that part of history as well????
Because akua is a "common noun", it usually has a noun marker in front of it. The common way to express "God", with a capital G, in Hawaiian is with "ke Akua" (with a capital A). When referring to other akua, a lower case a is the norm. Iesū is a name, so it doesn't appear with a regular noun marker in front of it.
Pū is an interesting word. Some definitions for this usage of pū are: together, entirely, completely, also with, together with (from Pukui-Elbert Hawaiian Dictionary). It is often used as an "adverb" after "verbs" like hele, e.g. "E hele pū kākou" -> "Let's go together".
It can also be used after pronouns, for example, in the phrases "ʻO au pū" -> "Me too" and "Me ʻoe pū" -> "same to you [as in reply to a good wish]" (Pukui-Elbert Hawaiian Dictionary).
Some Hawaiian Dictionaries
[PE] 1 n Jesus. [probably Heb Yeshua]
The online Hawaiian dictionaries had almost no information on this name. There are many times when one can find useful information and gain additional insights when looking up words in a dictionary.
Sorry if I missed any relevant points in the long thread, but whatever one's conception of Divinity, if any, invoking "(Ke) Akua" rather than "Iesu" would be less problematic from an interfaith and/or dialectical standpoint. The former name is arguably interpretable as either "(the) Almighty" or "(the) [Higher] Power" to persons of different religious beliefs, preferences or affiliations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atua.
For those who want to get around all religions and any idea of a god(dess), I imagine that Hawaiian can utilize relatively secular benedictions approximating "may you be protected," "...blessed," "...blissed-out," or "...[fill in blank]."
Focusing on religious phrases when there is so much to learn about the language seems inefficient and not ideal. In the other languages I have studied for 3 or more years in Duolingo , Spanish and German, I have not yet spent time learning phrases such as Jesus be with you, yet these countries and cultures have a much longer historical Christian interaction than Hawaii. Spending initial learning experience on these phrases for many reasons doesn't seem efficient and effective use of learners time.
How is this polite? Keep your proselytizing to yourself Duolingo. This is a white supremacist colonialist statement and has no place in my language learning. This is inspiration to not upgrade to Pro, for sure. How is there no option to report this offensive question as offensive?