ʻAʻole au makemake i nā ʻōlelo Kalikiano ma loko nei. Me he mea lā, he mau Kalikiano ka poʻe Hawaiʻi a pau. ʻAʻole loa pēlā. I do not like all the God and Jesus references. It implies that all Hawaiians and Hawaiian language speakers are Christian and that simply is not the case.
Aloha e Kumu Kapulani, it's been two years already, but I wanted to respond here so that folks know this comment is not ignored. It is 100% true that not all Hawaiians and Hawaiian language speakers are Christian, and I understand your opposition to including these phrases for that reason.
I’m comfortable with the fact that the course devs chose to represent the most widespread religious belief of the region, as many other courses have chosen to do. I will be even more excited if the updates include references to indigenous beliefs as well. It strikes me as a particularly fitting place for it, given the departure from Duo’s “no revitalization” policy that this course represents.
I feel the opposite about this. I appreciate one's beliefs but would prefer them to be kept in the privacy of one's own house where one hopefully uses their beliefs to inspire, motivate, and give meaning to their lives.
For language learning, I'd prefer to see more cultural aspects introduced. The foods, local native rare/unique animals, hobbies, etc that can be associated with the areas the language is used in/native to or that tell more about the people that use the language.
We are already aware of all religions internationally and get to hear about it all of the time.
However, I am thrilled that the contributors have the freedom to make their own choices on the content and are not restricted within reason. Also, I expect some languages to have common expressions that are derived from religion. Those are necessary and are more than okay to teach in an absolute beginner's course
Yes I agree with you, that the people of Old were very religious and language is important to culture. Therefore inclusivity with our Indigenous beliefs is NECESSARY if there is going to be talk/teaching about christianity, especially through this app that can reach millions...Hopefully this happens, MAHALO to you!
As I understand what Kale said, kanaka maoli were religious, not meaning Jesus but Ku, Kane, Kanaloa, Lono et al. Once you start teaching expressions that are steeped in Christian references, especially ones that frankly are not actually in common conversational use, then a balance to include original indigenous beliefs would be appropriate.
I'm Hawaiian and I'm not offended by the Jesus greetings and I thank DL for using them. Don't forget that our Ali'i became Christians and encourage our people to do so. If you listen to interviews with our kupunas who are mānaleo , all of them begin by praying to Jesus. I once heard an old timer, Isaia Kealoha, start with a pule wehe (opening prayer) at a particular non-religious interview; and it was a prayer in Hawaiian to God through Jesus Christ. The translator translated it taking out all references to Jesus. Here is the link if you want to hear the whole interview in which he again references Jesus at the end.
Pololei ʻo Maui. This is commonly said by Niʻihau speakers, nowadays especially "Iesū pū." However, if DL is going to teach this, they should also teach the correct response. If a Niʻihau speaker says this to you, you should reply, "Pēia pū." Any other response will probably get you a funny look, and they will most likely never say it to you again because they figure you apparently don't know how to reply. But they would never correct you no matter how you respond. Too polite. BTW, the rest of the phrase (for either the statement or the response) is "me ʻoe," but that's almost never heard in general conversation.
Mahalo to Ke Ali'i Pauahi for establishing the Kamehameha schools. Mahalo to Kamehameha Schools for supporting this widely accsessable language program. Mahalo for your sincere sentiment of " Blessings " and "Jesus be with you" Mahalo to Kamehameha Schools for accepting Hawaiian Students of all religions and ethnicities.
Less so for mandatory religious (Christian) education and compulsory church (Kalawina) attendance.. Mahalo for aquainting us with a polite expression previously unknown to me. Now, having to retype Jesus blessings be with you 32 times May make a less used expression known to millions,and yes, Christianity is a majority religion among Na Po'e Hawai'i and an undeniable part of our history for both good and ill- However Enough Jesus Blessings in the language lesson already. O wau iho no me ke aloha.
Well, considering these religious expressions are not actually used on a frequent basis, we can only speculate that since Aloha is used for both Hello and Goodbye, the extension with the religious reference can be used in both situations as well. Report as your answer should be accepted since it is just as unused as a salutation as it is a goodbye.
Interesting. The one person from Ni‘hau that I interacted with, Tuti Kanahele/Sanborn, never said any of these to me or anyone else in my presence. Fascinating that the creators decided to use these polite expressions, in spite of the rarity a learner would experience actually to meet any po‘e Ni‘ihau to use them. I also find curious that story given by one commenter that these were found in recordings. Were they then or was that a disingenuous story and therefore a disingenuous excuse to include these "polite expressions" over the obvious please, thank you very much, you're welcome?? I mean, if we are to learn introduced expressions, then why not ones that people would use with everyone instead of expressions that represent a population that few have access to?
In the Hindi lessons, they teach "namasthe" as a greeting... And if is a Hindu phrase meaning "I acknowledge and respect the god in you" (my dad is Indian and Hindu). That said, I'd be surprised to hear a Muslim Indian use this greeting. I'm not sure it's appropriate there either.
I currently live in the "Bible Belt" of the USA, and I don't hear God-referential greetings all that often. (More often it's the patronizing "bless her heart"...)
Are Hawai'ian speakers really do religious that this is the only type of greeting that is acceptable? If not, there should be more variety.
It's important to remember the native culture underwent actual torture in the Hawaiian equivalent of Indian Schools and were subjected to the horrors of European colonialism before being part of the US. https://sojo.net/articles/time-acknowledgement-christian-run-native-american-boarding-schools-left-legacy-destruction
So far I've learned nothing about this god that isn't mine. What I DID learn was that there would be no respite from the jesus-focus if I were to continue with the segment that was "polite phrases" (not all of which are even actually polite!). That icon is still blue in my lessons list - stands out significantly among the yellow ones all around it. Nor will I ever return - totally saturated and put off with the jesus thing. SO not about Hawaiian - language or culture. I've lived here long enough to see how it's infiltrated into much of the culture, but not to the betterment thereof. No reason to include it into the language, except to note that when you see/hear "iesu" it's a reference to Christianity. End of story.
It could be I guess. No one really says stuff like this for Hello or Goodbye anyways. They dug these up from somewhere but not from.daily conversation at all. Plus, if you look for examples in nupepa . org you will see that they are not even using the full sentences like 'O Iesū pū me 'oe. This is some sort of hapahaole halfway version.
That sounds like an over-extension of meaning based upon whatever context existed around those words. It is a reference to Jesus specifically and looking at usage in nupepa org was used to refer specifically to Jesus. All these attempts to paint these phrases with such broad strokes do not align with the historical use that people otherwise insist on referencing for guidance.
I'll respond here as well, so that folks reading through can see. The phrases "Iesū pū" and "ke Akua pū" come from living native speakers. In my personal experience, I have mostly heard these phrases from Niʻihau folks. I do not claim that these phrases are widespread, but they are not made up.
As an atheist living in a multicultural community, I feel uncomfortable with this greeting (and with Jesus be with you). The Lonely Planet phrasebook to the South Pacific gives "Aloha a hui hou" as a religion-free Goodbye. Elbert's 'Spoken Hawaiian' (sic.) gives just "Aloha". Any thoughts on these? Are they possible alternatives? Could the developers be encouraged to be more inclusive?
Purging Duolingo of references to religious beliefs would make it less inclusive, not more. The vast majority of sentences are secular, but you’ll find the occasional reference to Christianity, Islam, atheism, etc, in relevant courses. It just seems disproportionately prominent here because of how painfully underdeveloped the Hawaiian course is. Personally, I’d like to see it expanded; it’s a great opportunity to introduce curious people to the lesser known native Hawaiian practices that existed more prominently before the spread of Christianity.
I'm not totally sure the poster wants all religious references purged. The choice of greetings taught here seems odd when there are other, common, non-religious greetings that could be chosen. I also found it annoying. I think that is what he is referring to. I would also like to see references to the old, pre-Christian practices that may still be practiced, but that can be done in a non-religious manner (see many of the other "spiritual" or "religious" skills in other courses. )
I agree that the initial [j] (english < y >) sound is likely from Latin. Hawaiian has no equivalent to the english < j > sound, and many languages pronounce < j > as [j] (ie German), so it was a reasonable replacement.
The lack of word final [s] is likely because consonants can only occur pre-vocalically in Hawaiian.
Further more, in Spanish, it's not uncommon to lenite or elide word-final [s], so to pronounce "Jesús" as Jesú ([he-'suh] or [he-'su]) wouldn't be terribly odd. (That's probably not related to the Hawaiian pronunciation, but is interesting in itself.) Also, the full form of his name (Jesus Christ) in Spanish is Jesucristo, with no final s.
Hawaiian normally borrows English /dʒ/ as Hawaiian /k/ (Cf. "Keoki" < "George"). And it normally adds a word-final vowel instead of eliding a word-final consonant to maintain its CV syllable structure. If we assume it was Latin, we could say they borrowed the vocative to account for the elided final consonant; borrowing the vocative for the name of a deity isn't far-fetched, but why Latin? Is there a record of missionaries in the Pacific using Latin as an instructional language or something?
Apparently, African, Indian, (North and South)-east Asian, and Oceanic languages mostly omit the final -s and use an initial /j/ too. And Caribbean creoles omit the final -s too, but that's just French, no mystery there. Same with the Muslim world and the Arabic "Isa" form. So whatever it is that is going on, it's likely not a uniquely Hawaiian phenomenon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_(name)#Other_languages
People can attack me and call me a hater all they want, but stating facts is not being a hater. Words like that just mean that those people have ZERO retorts to the facts I present. When you cannot prove me wrong, you try to malign me personally with ad hominem attacks instead. Not working since the facts have not changed, and no one can prove them wrong.
:) You have a much more sophisticated understanding of Hawaiian than I do. Everything I said, I got from a cursory glance at the phonology section of the Hawaiian wikipedia page. While the original missionaries to Hawaii were an assortment of protestants from the US, the Catholic church was very active in the Pacific as well, so it's not incredible to suggest that the Hawaiians borrowed their word for Jesus from people who were introduced to the word in a Latin-speaking (Catholic) environment. Just spit-balling here; I don't have any research to back this up.
I would also like to add in to the mix that the sound S was not unknown to pre-contact Hawaiians. It is a rare allophone for the t/k, and it was an accepted letter to use in certain words or names like Iesū. Other instances of S in Hawaiian include the word kelamoku pronounced selamoku, both meaning sailor - a union of the Hawaiianized word sailor as kela/sela and the word moku meaning ship. Another is the female name Kanoe pronounced Sanoe heard in a song or two. Further to that, the exclamation of disgust often written Kā! has been pronounced as Tsā! for eons. It is just that the sounds S and TS are not regularly used phonemes in the Hawaiian language such that they would make it into the alphabet.
I would guess from the Latin - Iesum. Some of them probably decided a slight alteration of that would be the most in line with the Hawaiian lexicon without altering the name to the point of it being unrecognizable.
There's no s in the Hawaiian alphabet either, though. So it's only used for loanwords and other words/names of foreign origin.
Aloha kākou. I have my own gods and goddess. Please be respectful and be more sensitive culture, religious beliefs. I think using the name Jesus is a bit limited. It should be acceptable for the user to use God or akua or or skip that part all together. Not just "Lesū pu". Mahalo nui loa.
Thank you... With so many commenting that this is their culture and the phrases are common... And do many others saying it's true culture and the phrases are not... ... There send to be an assumption that all speakers are Christian.
Is that the phrase you would use? (I'm not Christian and if I should be lucky enough to get to speak with someone I'd like a phrase that is appropriate!)
Allow me to assure you that while the majority of Native Hawaiians are indeed Christian, almost none of them say this. Apparently only people from the island of Ni‘ihau use these, population about 200, and the chance you will ever meet someone from there is almost nil. It is even a private island, and you must get permission from the owner just to travel there. File these specific Polite Expressions under "Things I will never use".
Phrases like "Iesū pū" and "ke Akua pū" are not only used by people from Niʻihau. I mentioned poʻe Niʻihau though, because many of them practice Christianity and use these phrases often. Other Christian Hawaiians use them as well.
I also mentioned the Niʻihau community because they are one of the very few, if not the last, community of native speakers with an unbroken lineage to the language of their kūpuna. This is really something special, since many Hawaiian speakers today (including you and me) have learned Hawaiian as a second language, perhaps largely in a classroom setting, rather than the home.
You mentioned that the majority of Native Hawaiians are Christian, and I think that's probably true. Certainly not all Native Hawaiians are Christian, but many are.
Not everyone wants to learn these phrases or see them taught here, and I understand why. It's because of the legacy of colonization that Hawaiians know too well. I understand that seeing Christian phrases here can feel to some like rubbing salt in a wound, if you see Christianity as a tool of oppression. On the other hand, however, there are many in our community that practice Christianity and identify with it, identify as Christian Hawaiians.
I hope that those who want to learn the language can use these phrases, or if they choose not to use them, understand them, and know that they come from a living language.
I understand that the written form of Hawaiian was formalized by missionaries but I find these references to Jesus in basic lessons disturbing. Hawaiian beliefs are deeply rooted in a polytheist pantheon. Jesus is an imported idol. To keep the course within the culture how about teaching us: May the Gods be with you? "Ke nā Akua pū"? Or at least "Ke Kāne pū"?
Its not polite to force religion on people who have no desire for it. I ask to have these expressions removed from this app. If you wanna learn these kinds of phrases, pick it up in the church of your choosing, but do not go around talking like this in regular public. If you're truly a follower of the bible, then Heed and Live the words of Matthew: Ch6, Verses 1-8.
Read through some comments and here's my opinion. If you don't like it don't do the lesson. If my culture offends you by saying "Ke Akua Pū", which I use on a daily basis, than by all means, go learn another language. Enjoy the free lessons, I paid big bucks to learn the simple basics (years ago) of 'Ōlelo Hawai'i and I'm very grateful that I can brush up on it for free and teach our kids for free at the same time. #IesuPu #KeAkuaPu #eHoomaikaiAu
There SHOULD be an option to skip this lesson but there isn't.
Also do not go around high makamaka as if what you speak everyday is the right way to speak and is what all Hawaiians speak. I have never spoken OR heard this phrase in my life and I went to Kamehameha Schools where chapel was mandatory and they are also ironically the very ones who programmed this course!
Why did the Kahu never speak this to us when leaving chapel? Why did we never hear this on campus? Why was this never taught in ‘ōlelo hawai‘i class? Why did I just never hear it in my daily life ever?
Because it is NOT common usage. Period. And christianity, though many hawaiians subscribe to it, shouldn't be conflated with Hawaiian culture.
Many people simply don't want religious phrases shoved down their throat especially if they are not Christian. It has NOTHING to do with "being offended" about Hawaiian culture. In fact it has nothing to do with Hawaiian culture at all. Hawaiian history? Sure. But just because it has a long history here doesn't automatically make it part of our indigenous culture.
I think the questions bring raised are whether this is really as common in your culture as Do implies with this lesson and whether there are other appropriate and acceptable greetings.
For example, I'm not Christian. Even if I'm comfortable with saying it (still thinking about it... I wish people Merry Christmas, but this seems different)... Is it appropriate?
Yes, some responders seem offended. But some of us (self included, my father is Indian and Hindu) come from cultures where Christianity has a very checkered past. Some have strong feelings about Christianity and/or colonialism. They may be learning that your - and perhaps your culture's - experience is different. (My reading of history suggested that Christianity was voluntarily embraced, colonialism was more of a problem in Hawai'i... i may need to learn more...)
I think everyone learning this language is showing a desire to learn more about your culture. Sometimes they will get it wrong. Sometimes they will think they are being thoughtful, concerned learners and miss the point. And sometimes someone may even make you see something a different way yourself... Who knows?
History of the Hawaiian Language
Hawaiian was an oral language. The 19th century missionaries, however, were supposed to teach their converts to read the Bible, and created a writing system with an alphabet of only twelve letters for words of indigenous Hawaiian origin. The Hawaiian language became the language of the government, remained the most commonly used language in daily life, and was used between the numerous different ethnic groups who had all arrived (in Hawaiʻi) to work the plantations. The alphabet was later expanded to allow for two unique characteristics in the Hawaiian word that the missionaries had missed.
First, there was the unnoticed consonant, a glottal stop. Try the sound in the American exclamation "oh-oh". The 'okina symbol ( ʻ ) now indicates this stop. Secondly, the five vowels could all function as longer sounds, now symbolized with a short line above the vowel. It became clear that Hawaiian was just as diversified and complete as the familiar European languages.
(Read more by looking at the link)
Sentences in Hawaiian with the word "Iesū." (Link): http://ulukau.org/chd/baibala/baibala-conc-iesu1.htm
Mahalo to all who have commented. Your varying viewpoints all add so much to my understanding. My Hawaiian mother-in-law was a Christian who also respected the ancient ways. She lived aloha. Repetition is just the way DL teaches. I don't think the intent is to promote Christianity but to acknowledge that faith is woven into the fabric of the culture.
Of all the courses I've done, this is the only one that uses religious blessings as ordinary greetings in one of the first skills. I think it's a pretty good course, but this does betray the origins of the group working on it. Religion, in all of the other courses except Swahili, where the reason for including it early is explained in tips and notes, has it's own skill later on in the tree.
Well, you will need to scroll down in the comments and look for the reply by Maui_Bartlett, who is one of the creators of this course, by the way. He said that these are expressions commonly said on Ni‘ihau as a farewell. Thus, using these to greet someone as a hello would not be correct. That said, I am not sure when anyone learning these would ever meet a person from Ni‘ihau in order to use them. It seems that if they want a bunch of non-speakers to go around using hardly ever heard Christian words and phrases, that would then constitute the agenda that people say exist. After all, logically speaking, please and you're welcome are heard on a daily basis in Hawaiian, regardless of their hapa haole nature, and yet these phrases they admit are used only by a few hundred people that most have no access to are taught to the point of minute detail, and we are still waiting on please and you're welcome like .........
Aloha e Kumu ʻOhu! I have been hesitant to accept "hello" or greetings" for "aloha" in this phrase, because I have only ever heard "Iesū pū" used when saying farewell. With Duolingo, it can be a challenge to provide context that would help to make the appropriate translation clear, but certainly "hello" or "greetings" could be a possible translation given the way this phrase is presented, without any context. My hesitance is because I wouldn't want to give learners the impression that they should say "Aloha, Iesū pū" as a greeting if that would not be a natural use of the language. I wonder if you have ever heard this phrase used as a greeting?
Just because one person claims to say this every day does not make it correct. I have heard people very often make the claim that haole is really hā + 'ole (without breath) , and yet that is just corrupted Hawaiian. Saying it 50 times does not make it the correct etymology. It just means you persist in following others. Saying Iesū pū or Akua pū is corrupted Hawaiian. Even if it is considered idiomatically, it does not follow accepted historical usage.
To me it sounds like some priest somewhere misheard and misspoke, the people around him let it slide and now here we are. We have a religious version of 'okole maluna flying around, and worse another hā + 'ole (without breath) because the fist pounding language leaders who persist in following that urban legend have never been challenged.
It's a long discussion of the origins of this stuff and why it's even included in the first place. So some random user insisted these are found in recordings and lots of older people say this, though none of the ones I ever interacted with say it and none of the recordings I ever listened to have it in there. Then, one of the writers gets on here and claims it's from Ni‘ihau actually, and when I point out almost no one has access to any po‘e Ni‘ihau, then suddenly he says that lots of people say it. Still yet, I have never heard any of these lots of people ever say it. So long story short, you would have no more idea than the rest of us, since these are actually just randomly thrown in here with no frequency of use upon which any of us could base any type of guess.
I will probably not be accepting "Hello, Jesus be with you" for this exercise. Please refer to my reply to this comment further up the thread: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29154444?from_email=comment&comment_id=35481958
"Greetings, Jesus be with you" won't be accepted for this exercise. Please refer to my reply to this comment further up the thread: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29154444?from_email=comment&comment_id=35481958