ʻAʻole au makemake i nā ʻōlelo Kalikiano ma loko nei. Me he mea lā, he mau Kalikiano ka poʻe Hawaiʻi a pau. ʻAʻole loa pēlā. I do not like all the God and Jesus references. It implies that all Hawaiians and Hawaiian language speakers are Christian and that simply is not the case.
Listen to this interview in which Isaia Kealoha starts with a prayer invoking God through His son Jesus Christ, which the translator conveniently (on purpose) mistranslates, leaving out any reference to Jesus. Kupuna Isaia again talks about Jesus at the end of his talk. So why do some Hawaiians think that getting back to our Hawaiian roots means throwing out Christ. Why don't you throw out electricity too and cars and computers, and everything else good that you continue to use which our ancestor certainly did not have. Did our people stop thinking when they regained the use of there language back in the 70's??!! https://vimeo.com/59457944
You're making the claim that moving from the Hawaiian religion to Christianity is progress in the same way that moving from no electricity to electricity is progress.
I would say that is both untrue & insulting to the Hawaiian religion. Christianity is not an "improvement" in the way that technology is an improvement. It's different in the way that painting your house green rather than blue is different.
Trying to upvote your comment, but the program is being slow today, so I just want to say Mahalo no kou mana'o - I totally agree!
That is an interview not a daily conversation. People do not typically start an informal conversation with Aloha! Iesū pū! E pule kāua.
Let's not be disingenuous and pretend that these phrases and sentences are commonplace in daily conversation. They are not. I would also like to point out that these >>phrases<<, which is what they are, are more like hapahaole speech. I have searched on nupepa org for these and have only ever found them as part of >>complete sentences<<, i.e. 'O Iesū pū me 'oe or 'O ke Akua pū me mākou. I will sidestep the question about throwing out Christianity altogether and assert instead that these should not be thrown out because they are Christian in origin, but because they are not widely used as this lesson would imply and because they are just not good Hawaiian anymore than Hau'oli lā hānau or 'okole maluna would be.
If we are to dig through old newspapers and recordings to resurrect grammar and vocabulary to renew and repurpose, it would occur to my mind to resurrect appropriately used Hawaiian instead of ..... THIS.
I’m comfortable with the fact that the course devs chose to represent the most widespread religious belief of the region, as many other courses have chosen to do. I will be even more excited if the updates include references to indigenous beliefs as well. It strikes me as a particularly fitting place for it, given the departure from Duo’s “no revitalization” policy that this course represents.
Hawaiians were and are very religious. Religion and language are important to culture, and so it's important to learn religious language to understand the culture. Although, this is probably an idiom that was made up when Calvinists arrived in the islands.
Yes I agree with you, that the people of Old were very religious and language is important to culture. Therefore inclusivity with our Indigenous beliefs is NECESSARY if there is going to be talk/teaching about christianity, especially through this app that can reach millions...Hopefully this happens, MAHALO to you!
Wait, people of old were Christians? Pretty sure they had their own system before the white man arrived.
As I understand what Kale said, kanaka maoli were religious, not meaning Jesus but Ku, Kane, Kanaloa, Lono et al. Once you start teaching expressions that are steeped in Christian references, especially ones that frankly are not actually in common conversational use, then a balance to include original indigenous beliefs would be appropriate.
I'm Hawaiian and I'm not offended by the Jesus greetings and I thank DL for using them. Don't forget that our Ali'i became Christians and encourage our people to do so. If you listen to interviews with our kupunas who are mānaleo , all of them begin by praying to Jesus. I once heard an old timer, Isaia Kealoha, start with a pule wehe (opening prayer) at a particular non-religious interview; and it was a prayer in Hawaiian to God through Jesus Christ. The translator translated it taking out all references to Jesus. Here is the link if you want to hear the whole interview in which he again references Jesus at the end.
I thought that was (partly) what Kale333901 was referring to, pre-colonialism religious beliefs?
Sure - it doesn't really justify having this phrase twenty times through the course though!!
I don't know Hawaiians who speak like that. Perhaps some kūpuna but not anyone in the Hawaiian circles Im in. Ive seen it written as a "sincerely"
Mahalo to Ke Ali'i Pauahi for establishing the Kamehameha schools. Mahalo to Kamehameha Schools for supporting this widely accsessable language program. Mahalo for your sincere sentiment of " Blessings " and "Jesus be with you" Mahalo to Kamehameha Schools for accepting Hawaiian Students of all religions and ethnicities.
Less so for mandatory religious (Christian) education and compulsory church (Kalawina) attendance.. Mahalo for aquainting us with a polite expression previously unknown to me. Now, having to retype Jesus blessings be with you 32 times May make a less used expression known to millions,and yes, Christianity is a majority religion among Na Po'e Hawai'i and an undeniable part of our history for both good and ill- However Enough Jesus Blessings in the language lesson already. O wau iho no me ke aloha.
Saying "God be with you" or something similar is a pretty common farewell in many languages. Think of "adios" in Spanish (Dios = God) or "adieu" in French (Dieu =God). Even the English "good bye" is a contraction of "God be with you".
It's curious to include Christian expressions, as these phrases are not at all common colloquialisms in any studies I've taken, or even in common parlance.
For a section of the course named "Polite Expressions," I would expect speech with broader application.
These are not in common usage that having an entire section devoted to them would imply.
Read through some comments and here's my opinion. If you don't like it don't do the lesson. If my culture offends you by saying "Ke Akua Pū", which I use on a daily basis, than by all means, go learn another language. Enjoy the free lessons, I paid big bucks to learn the simple basics (years ago) of 'Ōlelo Hawai'i and I'm very grateful that I can brush up on it for free and teach our kids for free at the same time. #IesuPu #KeAkuaPu #eHoomaikaiAu
Perhaps the first truly direct reference, though I have seen references to Islam in the Indonesian course, and seem to recall references to Christianity and atheism in the French course.
I'm pretty sure I remember seeing some Jesus and Mary stuff in the Irish course
Why isnt hello accepted in this case? Would you only wish someone iesū pū when saying goodbye?
Well, considering these religious expressions are not actually used on a frequent basis, we can only speculate that since Aloha is used for both Hello and Goodbye, the extension with the religious reference can be used in both situations as well.
I'm not sure I like all of the religion that this is bringing. I would have proffered if it had just translated it to "Blessings".
I think it's important to know what we're saying; a learner who is religious but not Christian might use the phrase by mistake if Duo taught it but zoomed out on the meaning like that.
Why can't it be Hello Jesus be with you, in addition to Farewell Jesus be with you?
I answered "Hello, Jesus be with you" and it was marked wrong. Is there any way to know without context if the "aloha" means "hello" or "goodbye"? Thank you!
I have the same question. It's too bad legitimate questions like this get buried beneath all the bickering about religion.
Well, considering these religious expressions are not actually used on a frequent basis, we can only speculate that since Aloha is used for both Hello and Goodbye, the extension with the religious reference can be used in both situations as well. Report as your answer should be accepted since it is just as unused as a salutation as it is a goodbye.
Aloha kākou. I have my own gods and goddess. Please be respectful and be more sensitive culture, religious beliefs. I think using the name Jesus is a bit limited. It should be acceptable for the user to use God or akua or or skip that part all together. Not just "Lesū pu". Mahalo nui loa.
Mahalo to all who have commented. Your varying viewpoints all add so much to my understanding. My Hawaiian mother-in-law was a Christian who also respected the ancient ways. She lived aloha. Repetition is just the way DL teaches. I don't think the intent is to promote Christianity but to acknowledge that faith is woven into the fabric of the culture.
Why is it Iesū and not Kekuki or something? Neither the Portuguese/Spanish nor the British pronounce it with an I/Y-sound instead of J-sound, nor do they drop the final S nowadays, so I'm curious where the Hawaiʻians picked it up?
I agree that the initial [j] (english < y >) sound is likely from Latin. Hawaiian has no equivalent to the english < j > sound, and many languages pronounce < j > as [j] (ie German), so it was a reasonable replacement.
The lack of word final [s] is likely because consonants can only occur pre-vocalically in Hawaiian.
Further more, in Spanish, it's not uncommon to lenite or elide word-final [s], so to pronounce "Jesús" as Jesú ([he-'suh] or [he-'su]) wouldn't be terribly odd. (That's probably not related to the Hawaiian pronunciation, but is interesting in itself.) Also, the full form of his name (Jesus Christ) in Spanish is Jesucristo, with no final s.
Hawaiian normally borrows English /dʒ/ as Hawaiian /k/ (Cf. "Keoki" < "George"). And it normally adds a word-final vowel instead of eliding a word-final consonant to maintain its CV syllable structure. If we assume it was Latin, we could say they borrowed the vocative to account for the elided final consonant; borrowing the vocative for the name of a deity isn't far-fetched, but why Latin? Is there a record of missionaries in the Pacific using Latin as an instructional language or something?
If I may add a prompt to your discussion, in Hawaiʻi the New Testament was translated from the original Greek.
Apparently, African, Indian, (North and South)-east Asian, and Oceanic languages mostly omit the final -s and use an initial /j/ too. And Caribbean creoles omit the final -s too, but that's just French, no mystery there. Same with the Muslim world and the Arabic "Isa" form. So whatever it is that is going on, it's likely not a uniquely Hawaiian phenomenon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_(name)#Other_languages
People can attack me and call me a hater all they want, but stating facts is not being a hater. Words like that just mean that those people have ZERO retorts to the facts I present. When you cannot prove me wrong, you try to malign me personally with ad hominem attacks instead. Not working since the facts have not changed, and no one can prove them wrong.
:) You have a much more sophisticated understanding of Hawaiian than I do. Everything I said, I got from a cursory glance at the phonology section of the Hawaiian wikipedia page. While the original missionaries to Hawaii were an assortment of protestants from the US, the Catholic church was very active in the Pacific as well, so it's not incredible to suggest that the Hawaiians borrowed their word for Jesus from people who were introduced to the word in a Latin-speaking (Catholic) environment. Just spit-balling here; I don't have any research to back this up.
It's Yesu in Swahili too, at least among Christians - Muslims refer to him as Isa.
I would also like to add in to the mix that the sound S was not unknown to pre-contact Hawaiians. It is a rare allophone for the t/k, and it was an accepted letter to use in certain words or names like Iesū. Other instances of S in Hawaiian include the word kelamoku pronounced selamoku, both meaning sailor - a union of the Hawaiianized word sailor as kela/sela and the word moku meaning ship. Another is the female name Kanoe pronounced Sanoe heard in a song or two. Further to that, the exclamation of disgust often written Kā! has been pronounced as Tsā! for eons. It is just that the sounds S and TS are not regularly used phonemes in the Hawaiian language such that they would make it into the alphabet.
I would guess from the Latin - Iesum. Some of them probably decided a slight alteration of that would be the most in line with the Hawaiian lexicon without altering the name to the point of it being unrecognizable.
There's no s in the Hawaiian alphabet either, though. So it's only used for loanwords and other words/names of foreign origin.
History of the Hawaiian Language
Hawaiian was an oral language. The 19th century missionaries, however, were supposed to teach their converts to read the Bible, and created a writing system with an alphabet of only twelve letters for words of indigenous Hawaiian origin. The Hawaiian language became the language of the government, remained the most commonly used language in daily life, and was used between the numerous different ethnic groups who had all arrived (in Hawaiʻi) to work the plantations. The alphabet was later expanded to allow for two unique characteristics in the Hawaiian word that the missionaries had missed.
First, there was the unnoticed consonant, a glottal stop. Try the sound in the American exclamation "oh-oh". The 'okina symbol ( ʻ ) now indicates this stop. Secondly, the five vowels could all function as longer sounds, now symbolized with a short line above the vowel. It became clear that Hawaiian was just as diversified and complete as the familiar European languages.
(Read more by looking at the link)
I answered "Hello, Jesus be with you" and got it wrong. Is this a situation where "Iesu pu" provides added context implying goodbye, or is Duolingo just being difficult today?