Changes ahead for tree transitions
Bonjour tout le monde !
Staff has heard your concerns in the forums as well as the feedback the mods and contributors have shared after some of you were switched to a new tree. I have word that they will "be focusing on making the tree change experience better in the first half of next year and will likely hold off on most tree changes until then."
The good news is that staff is fully aware of how discouraging and frustrating it is to lose crowns and levels as well as to experience unanticipated changes to your tree. They want to fix the process before putting more users through it. I'm very hopeful that they will come up with some good ideas.
This means that everyone will likely stay in the tree they currently have to prevent further disruption.
The downside, of course, is if you want to move to another tree, it probably won't happen for at least six months. We'd like to see Tree 2 users have the option of moving to at least Tree 3, and we've asked for that, but I don't know if it will happen.
For now, it seems that things will be relatively stable for the French trees.
Bon courage et bonne continuation à tous !
I stopped a frenetic level (2 hours a day) of Duo french study thirty days ago because, ironically, I was traveling in France. Of course, I lost my streak but when I came back yesterday I found most of my old gold coins for completed subjects gone and in their place some very practical new subjects. Too bad they weren't there before I'd left because they would have been very useful.
I got a kick out of my previous rankings but because I'm more interested in learning French I don't mind this. I love the fact that I can get tips on my cell phone now as well as on my computer. Was I launched into this new system ahead of others because I quit? I'm not upset just curious. I like the changes so far.
dang, are they making even the French tree a phrasebook one? I must hurry to review it.
Hello French moderators, Hello Duolingo staff and community managers,
I am curious: Are those recent French (tree12) tree conversions many user complain in multiple threads a mistake or done by intent?
Has "tree update" code development been dropped again by staff?
Why is there no NEW "tree XX" active tree development - for old users - which is more / better compatible with the old tree2+3 skill layout instead of migrating old users (tree2/3) to the newer (incompatible) trees 8/12, or is this already happening with contractors in the background since the last months?
You do not really need to REMOVE all 26+ dedicated "grammar skills" from the contributor A/B tree3, do you?
Why are people losing their progress right now before finishing their tree, when they only want to accomplish this goal?
Why do they still have to lose their crowns when the "tree update" code re-engineering may not to be realized that easily
(I can imagine this very well that new trees first need to be carefully designed and no update code can fix this when you move words and sentences to new skills)?
@staff @community managers
FEATURE REQUEST 1
Stick to tree3, not be forced into new A/B tree updates
When will you finally introduce a new feature so people can stay on the great contributor tree3 if they want that for the next ~2-3 or 5 years (like me), which philosophy is IMHO more compatible with focusing on grammar instead of vocabulary, like EN-PT supports it?
If you need ANY help in designing a new / more "tree update" compatible French tree you may want to ask the EN->Portuguese team ;)
Their June 2018 EN-PT update actually let Portuguese learners (even with completed trees like me!) stay on most of the old skills and crowns and only resetted progress back to crown L0 level for a few selected skills (+ new skills); the "missing_lessons" and "num_missing" (lexemes) variable were touched so it was still advisable to use the old "lesson test-out" 2016/2017 code.
Yes, believe it or not, this really can be done if you just carefully design the new tree and make it 100% compatible with the older ones, including leaving all previous "grammar skills" and not removing them! :-)
FEATURE REQUEST 2
Option to select your tree:
Is it really that hard to develop for staff an opt-in A/B tree feature like you offered in February-April 2018 for the "crown update" to some (selected) users on the web portal?
All these "unnecessary" UI changes but all main / backend features are basically broken?
FEATURE REUQEST 3
Switch tree focus in advanced user settings
Will there be ever an user (advanced) setting tree option for a specific course if design is either
"vocabulary skill" related (like the last two EN-ES versions or French tree8+12) for advanced learners and finished trees
or highly grammar related (dedicated grammar skills, selectable in "skill re-strengthen" exercises on www.Duome.eu/USERNAME/progress or Tampermonkey userscripts or Chrome/Firefox extensions)?
For example, I am here on Duolingo to learn grammar, not vocabulary.
Sorry to say, but with tree sizes more than 69-91/96 skills we will not be able to focus on spaced repetition (SR) and keeping ALL of our previous completed 113 (ES)-119 (FR) / 156 (FR) -159 (ES) or recently learned (grammar) skills at 75-100% strength!
There are already other sites and 3rd party flashcard applications (Memrise, AnkiSRS, VT, SuperMemo, Clozemaster, Lingvist, Mondly, etc.) where I could strictly focus on learning new words.
Neither is Duolingo a phrasebook (like 50languages), so please stop drifting into all directions at the same time.
If you want or need to, you can of course mix the very best of ALL available solutions (offering dedicated grammar lessons, introducing NEW useful - selectable - vocabulary, re-strenghten previously taught grammar randomly in new "vocabulary skills", adding some useful phrases instead of robotic animal/food sentences, etc).
Please Duolingo, focus on where your real strength is:
Learning how to build / construct sentences in the L2 target language (with full typing support on the web porta)!
Other learning sites do not teach me that yet successfully!
With best regards / Viele Grüße aus Deutschland
I am a German native speaker. English is my 2nd language. I do not intend to hurt anybody's feelings so please do not take it on a personal level when I am trying to translate my "direct German thoughts" into English and maybe I have not managed to softly express my opinions in this morning brainstorming session.
I'd love to be upgraded from Tree 2 to anything. I'm at level 25 and have reviewed the old tree ad nauseam and there's nothing more to be gained from it at this point. I don't care about losing crowns or any of that. All the progress is in my head anyway. I've been spinning my heels waiting for something for months. Please, staff, give me something to work on instead of waving new things for me to see and then giving them to someone else.
Edit: And yes, I know there are other resources and I use those too. DL is easy to access online and I like to use it for review.
There are a couple of options on Duolingo that will let you continue your studies. There is the reverse course. (If you took French from English, the reverse is to take the course that let's you learn English for French.) Another option is to ladder. I see that you are learning Spanish. You could take the Spanish for French speakers course. I'd love to know how it went if you did either/both of those. :)
Hi, thanks. I've already done the Reverse course and the Spanish for French and English courses. Even though everyone says Spanish is easy, it didn't click with me very well. I found the French-Spanish (either way) courses easier than the English-Spanish courses (either way) but that might just be because the Romance languages are similar.
I've also tried other languages, but nothing makes my heart pitterpat quite like French does.
Since I have finished the 78 skills of French Tree 2, now I am starting another language- Hebrew, until I get a better French tree.
Thanks for reminding me about the reverse trees, @Usagiboy7 . I haven't checked them in a while and now see that there is a new English for Spanish tree. I will work on improving my skills. Gracias :-)
Suukkii, de nada! I am always curious if people plan to do reverse and ladder trees. But, hardly anyone remembers to post about their experiences after completing them.
Be careful what you wish for Suukkii , I have been driven nearly out of my mind with frustration since Duo switched me to the latest tree , it is chockFULL of errors and mind-numbing repetition of the basics.
Despite completing thousands of XPs per day I didn't feel I was making any progress what-so-ever.
I am beyond happy that, thanks to Thomas.Heiss , I have been able to revert back to the old tree this morning , only 50XP completed but I am back to learning useful grammar , hurrah!
@Lisaskier I also made a classroom in order to keep the tree5 (v2). Well now I know there's a place to find my learned words, and it's great that the teacher has access to the Skill Christmas, which is not appeared in my Store :)
Quote: I also made a classroom in order to keep the tree5 (v2).
No! Now you guys are even more confused than before when the additional version numbers have been added to Duome.eu...
See the corrected explanation from Sitesurf: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29770477
The stable tree (78 skills) is always called tree2 and was the fifth version, not tree5!
(tree3 is the newer A/B contributor tree with 96 skills).
How did you manage to revert back, the "new tree" I have been transitioned to appears exactly the same as the one I was on
I followed the instructions posted by Thomas.Heiss and started a "classroom" of which I am the only student ;}
I'd love to be upgraded from Tree 2 to anything. I'm at level 25 and have reviewed the old tree ad nauseam
Why don't you simply create a new user account.
Newer A/B trees are more related to NEW user or when established users are adding courses to their list as new for the very first time (progress reset does not help!!).
Very likely that you end up with the newest staff tree4.
If not, repeat that 2-5x times!
There was a user thread about doing it and ending up on different versions of French trees (incl. Pearson; this last one thing I didn't understand without having entered a special code...maybe a bug).
Don't ask me to find and link this thread...almost impossible :-)
Thank you @Thomas.Heiss . I'd forgotten about that workaround. I've started a new account and have Tree 4. I've already tested out of 4 of the 7 units. It's great to have new material to work with. The new tree works well with the crown system, as far as I can tell. Thanks for the suggestion :-)
Would it be possible to move me back to Tree 3, please. I was working through a self designed program and would very much appreciate being able to finish it. The 6 months would be allow me to do this.
Would it be possible to move me back to Tree 3
I have already started this discussion with Fierycat, one of our programmer gods here in the Duolingo community here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29141598$comment_id=29145676
We do now know how the tree2 (stable tree, 78 skills) variables exactly look like: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29141598$comment_id=29148342
We also know it for my tree3 A/B variables: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29141598$comment_id=29148657
And we know how it surely should not look like because of tree4 :-)
I'm looking forward to tree 4, but I certainly have enough to keep me busy until they figure out how to make smoother changes. I must be on tree 3 with 98 skills? 480 crowns.
And, as long as they're moving to a crown system, why not also give crowns for the completion of stories? They're a great resource, and I think giving crown credit would encourage people to use them more.
You can't choose whether to get out of the new tree or not, even if you ask. Or at least, I don't know of any cases where a user has asked to get out of the new tree and had successfully returned to the older tree.
Quote: I don't know of any cases where a user has asked to get out of the NEW tree and had successfully returned to the OLDER tree.
You can switch back from A/B tree4 to stable tree2 - in an instant - by registering your current "user (main) account" on http://schools.duolingo.com and creating an (empty) classroom as a teacher or student (progress sharing).
Further instructions / detail explanation
"Registered schools account" (for the current user account) vs a completely NEW "Duolingo user (main) account": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29258512
This will be true for ALL other courses too!
With a registered teacher account, you can not take part in any A/B testing.
This is account related, not classroom related.
Even EMPTY classrooms will swap ALL trees back to the stable ones.
Before you do that make sure that you are not actively working on other A/B trees (EN->PT June 2018 A/B test is final yet, newer PT->EN looks to be A/B as I have not got it yet).
Thomas.Heiss you're a star!
I have been getting progressively frustrated and de-motivated by the latest tree, to the point I've been considering quitting Duo after 3 years of solid study.
Although a self-confessed techno-phobe I managed to follow your instructions, open a "classroom" account and am now back on the old tree, hurrah!
After just one session I already feel that I am, once again, learning french :]
Many thanks for your help, please have some Lingots!
I could care less about crowns and lingots but I DO care about learning French.
This new tree has me completely frustrated and totally de-motivated.
It is chock full of errors, inconsistencies and bad translations.
Reports seem to be ignored and apparently our esteemed Moderators have been blocked from accessing the new tree, so we have no-one to turn to with our questions.
I am close to giving up on Duo and going elsewhere to learn the language.
If anyone could let me know how to restore the previous tree I would give you every last one of my lingots!!!
Thomas.Heiss gives advice further up this discussion thread about creating a new account as a classroom. This will get you Tree2. There is currently no way to get Tree3 which is an improvement to Tree2 but at least with Tree2 you can benefit from the years of free advice the Course Contributors and others have posted in the Discussion thread accompanying each lesson within each skill. Along with the Tips and Notes, all this work is invaluable and was what made Duolingo so special. It is absent on Tree4 with the exception of a few Tips and Notes for the beginning lessons which seem aimed towards grade school level. Duolingo does not seem to be retaining its adult learner appeal.
Quote: T. gives advice further up this discussion thread about creating a NEW account as a classroom. This will get you Tree2.
Depends on how you interprete between the lines :-)
Neither English nor German is a very easy language if you focus on the details.
No, not specifically a NEW "main Duolingo (user) account".
If you were at levels 20-25, this would mean you basically would have to RESTART from scratch.
With http://schools.duolingo.com you can register your existing Duolingo user (main) account either as a teacher OR a student; you can call this "new school account" or whatever you like to name this.
If you have already been (previously) on tree2 WITH progress (finished, all golden, higher crown levels or language 20-25 levels) and you are happy to stay with tree2 but you got migrated to the NEW staff tree4 (or shall I better say one of the two variants of tree4??) you can switch back to tree2 for your current (main) "Duolingo user account".
All the tree2 progress won't be reset / eliminated; everything should be still there.
I have been through exact this scenario with my EN-PT Portuguse course update in June 2018 when I was playing around a little bit and switching back and forth.
If you create a NEW Duolingo account, of course you will 99,9% get tree4, with zero progress, and when you register as a teacher/student, you will be switch back to tree2 BUT you have ZERO progress on both trees!
The requirement for a (registered) teacher account is that you create at least one (empty) classroom; if you delete it again, your "teacher account" will be gone!
CommeuneTexane - thank you so much for sharing the good news! Also thanks for posting the previous thread on the French trees explained, and for listening to people's concerns/complaints. It's nice to know what to expect for the next few months.
Also, thanks to everyone - mods, contributors, users - who have given feedback to staff on the current situation. Here's hoping the next switchover will be a much smoother experience!
Please change me to any tree you want, I just want to learn the language. Couldn't care less about owls, crowns, or whatever else. If the next tree is improved, I want to be there. I've made a LOT of progress thanks to this program and I'll continue using it.
This is only a suggestion. But what if, instead of upgrading the whole tree, the staff released new material via the Lingot store like the 'Idioms' and 'Flirting' lessons are now? This way lessons could just slot into place without disrupting what we have now. In the even a specific lesson gets revamped entirely, allow for a suitable reduction in crowns, but don't take people to zero, and allow the algorithm to teach them new words and new grammar. I'm not sure why this transition has been so muddy. And I'm saying that as someone who is pretty frustrated to STILL be on Tree2.
I just wish there was some kind of identifier to tell which tree you have. I gets confusing when you read forum discussions and folks are talking about a different trees.
I just wish
theythere was some kind of identifier to tell which tree you have
"Learning French from English - V3"
Note the "V3"?
You are on the contributor tree3 with 96+2 skills.
It is always astonishing to me how many posts the Duome.eu author reads here in the discussions; he/she has added "V3/V4" to the top right course description :-)
I thought you were supposed to fix the process before putting more users through it???? This is like starting back at square one!
Please define "tree." I gather that it is all the Duo lessons from top to bottom. I had reached the end of before mine changed to Tree 3. Is the French tree 3 the third tree duolingo has set up? Was I switched to it due to my inactivity? Can you explain what Duolingo Hope's makes this better than tree 2?
I gather that it is all the Duo lessons from top to bottom
tree = all skills in the EN-FR course
Is the French tree 3 the third tree duolingo has set up?
No, the second.
However, you are on the most recent staff tree4 with 119 skills and 598 lessons: https://www.duome.eu/Harry111162/progress
This is the related thread by moderators:
"French trees explained": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/29069435
Longer discussion thread
"New (third) French tree (tree4). Ouch!": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/29011235
It also cross-references another French thread with a 2nd statement from the new staff community manager.
Was I switched to it due to my inactivity?
No, for sure not.
You were randomly chosen for the A/B group testing.
I like the changes. Among other things the audio in the Diction seems to have improved. Duo grows and evolves to be a more effective French teacher. It may confound people who don't want it to change but I think they are confusing real learning with the pretty shiny stars our first grade teachers used to put on our homework. Its not change for change's sake. Its Edison experimenting to find a better filament for his light bulb.
Ugh.. I'm stuck on tree 2. No bonne chance for me!
There is a chance: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29166045
CommeuneTexane, I greatly appreciate your recent posts informing us about the French tree development. While I applaud Duolingo for all their innovation, the level of transparency of what changes are being made is often lacking. In Duo we too often learn about big changes only after we experience them, inevitably leading to shock, confusion and irritation by the users. While I am excited to see some of the changes in the tree development, having a bit of a time line or road map of what to expect is very comforting.
I for one have not feared the loss of crowns. In fact there are some skills I would voluntarily downgrade my crown level if I could because I know I am particularly weak on those skills. Although I should note that I have only known tree 2 and so have not lost any crowns in a tree change, so I suppose I might feel differently if it had actually happened to me. Regardless I look forward to the improved trees, even if I will need to reacquire crowns and my progress towards a golden owl is set back.
At least six months gives us a chance to finish a tree before getting a new one. Building in some kind of optional settings would be helpful so we don't lose our work. Some of us really enjoy language learning, but that it was a real smack in the face. Thank you for at least hearing our issues and trying to do something about them.
There is the reverse course.
I am always curious if people plan to do reverse and ladder trees
Starting a course from French on the web portal = writing / translating into French (on the right hand side) on a higher (better) ratio even on lower crown L0-L2 (L3) levels
(My) Tips and audio tricks for reverse and laddering trees
How do you do a reverse tree / The reverse tree helps - how to be able to listen to the target language audio:
Is French tree3 still A/B or is it finally final?
A new user got migrated to it.
My app just updated and it reduced most of my skill levels to level 1. Why?
Source "Upcoming feature: Skill levels (warning: quite long thread!): https://www.duolingo.com/comment/25615588$comment_id=30631216
You run into a French tree3 update: https://www.duome.eu/francesca380820/progress
Obviously you were on the old (stable) French tree2 before, were you?
Many French learners actually want to have an update from tree2 to tree3:
You got it! :-)
I am not sure if this is an error by accident (glitch), because staff told French moderators that no updates are planned until they are able to fix their code so people won't lose crowns too easily.
Maybe this just excludes the migration to newer staff/contributor trees8+12?
Personally I was somehow expecting that staff builds a new French tree X version, combining the very best from tree3 and new skills/vocabulary from tree12, but which has a more relaxed (better compatible) "tree design" so people do not lose too many crowns coming from the tree2/tree3 versions ((and definitely this is possible as I encountered it on my EN->PT course and the June 2018 update).
If you really want to switch back from tree3 (A/B) to the older tree2, you probably can do so by registering a "Duolingo schools account" and creating an (empty) classroom as a teacher or joining a classroom on your student account you have created for yourself" as explained here: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29391773
Be aware: If staff would have finally decided to finish the tree3 A/B experiment and made this tree3 (which was not offered to new users anymore!) the stable one, every user would be switched from tree2 actively, as far as I understand it!!
"Staff has heard your concerns in the forums..." yeah right! Complete fail as everything you said you wouldn't do you have done today.
So in spite of saying above "staff is fully aware of how discouraging and frustrating it is to lose crowns" you have decided to delete all crowns and progress anyway, knowing full well what the students would think.
Clearly, Duolingo does not care about its students.
"Heard your concerns." From what I've seen you meant "heard and ignored your concerns" about the French tree.
The "concern" (ie anger) of many students it that they were moved to the new tree, lost their progress, and now have to start at the beginning of the new tree. This is the most curiously callous treatment given that Duolingo has based it's learning experience on reinforcing students for progress.
The transition should have been announced with appropriate warnings about losing progress and the different orientation of the new tree. And it should have been at the student's option.
Request: Can I be restored to the old tree. You have the old tree and surely you have a recent backup of my account. Would you please restore it. This should only take a brief time by one of you employees. Although I think you should do this for free, if you need to charge for that minute of time, please allow me to pay.
Question: To avoid these problems in the future (in whatever language), would it be best to create a classroom with myself as the only student. I've seen mention of this method.
MillionthMonkey, I am a volunteer contributor, not a staff member. I have passed along information as it was given to me. We do not make the final call nor are we always given much (or sometimes any) advanced notice about major changes. We do alert the staff to concerns in the forums, and at times these concerns are taken into consideration.
As far as I know, the classroom trees are still on Tree 2 and will remain that way for a certain time...
Unfortunately with me, I am stuck on the French Tree2 with 78 skills. I am reviewing the skills up to level 3 or 4 now until I get moved to the French Tree12. Then I can look forward to learning another 78 skills - reaching 4500 or 5000 vocabulary words. While I wait, I have started another language for four months already - Hebrew.
Je suis très ravi. J'ai finalement obtenu French Tree12 avec 156 compétences. J'attendais French Tree12 depuis six mois. Hourra! Je l'ai finalement eu.
I'm very delighted. I finally got French Tree12 with 156 skills. I've been waiting for French Tree12 for six months. Hurray! I finally got it.
SHOF Duome.eu French tips and notes
65 (-1) cached (html formatted) grammar notes for your English->French tree:
Dear DL please see my comments in the discussion thread "See/try out new features - wipes out record of lessons completed". Can you do anything to reinstate me to the state I was in before I accepted the invitation to see some new features? 29/03/19
I cannot see any numbers on my trees. On my Italian tree, I was planning to move on to written & spoken texts so that I can read and listen at the same time. Working through level 5 may be boring. At least on lower levels I can test through a level at a time.
My French tree is behind. However, it is revision. I am thinking of applying for French nationality before losing my European identity, as I have lived and worked in France, and my wife has French nationality.
Sorry, but how do you know what tree you are working on? I think I might have a French 2 tree, but I am not sure. Can anyone clarify the question of how to know which tree one is working on?
Sorry, but how do you know what tree you are working on?
Those detail informations were discussed in more detail in previous French threads (I linked them here): https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29159653
Tree2 has 78 skills, or 81 if you count the bonus skills. The newer trees 3 & 4 both have more skills, 90-something and 100+ respectively.
Bon soir, Madame; je suis une texane, aussie. Je vis à la campagne dans la comté de Wise. J'aime bien Duolingo!
Seems rather unfair to the people who wish to keep progressing and learning new things. Six months may not mean a lot to the folks at Duo Headquarters, but to a language learner it's an eternity and equals to a lot of lost potential progress.
Does anyone know if deleting my account and starting a new one will put me in one of the new trees? Or am I stuck with the one I already have?
Why delete your account when you can simply have a secondary account for these things? Having an access to both trees might be helpful as well.
Most resources I've encountered only allow one account per e-mail address and assumed Duo was the same.
If I'm not mistaken, Google Mail (for instance) lets you use aliases like jeuri14 + jeuru.14 so you wouldn't have to set up a new email account, you can use these "different" emails for different accounts on duolingo.
If two email accounts could be in different French courses, that would be great. Unfortunately, it appears that they would both be in the new courses. My current account has been forced to the new course and it would be reasonable for them to add all new accounts to the new course.
Quote: I'd like to know when that is likely to happen.
Please see the statement from our moderator Tex in this thread: