https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexinaLock

Brazilian vs. Portugal Portuguese and the Placement of Pronouns

So I have heard that there are a few differences when it comes to the placement of pronouns in a sentence. For example Voce vai ajudar me? versus Voce vai-me ajudar? Are they both right in both, are they both wrong in both? I am confused. I would appreciate any help. Thanks!

October 10, 2018

11 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/blurflux

I'm almost pretty sure it is generally

"Você vai me ajudar?" in Brazil "Você vai ajudar-me?" (formal) or "vais ajudar-me?" (informal) in Portugal

October 17, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RooyAguirre

(10/13 EDIT) (I'M WRONG).

So.. let me try to explain it: Indeed! The placement of pronouns are... both right, and wrong.

It mostly depends on the Portuguese you want to use. For example, if you want to use your Portuguese in Brazil, then learning the Brazilian placement of pronouns is the one you'll mostly use. In Portugal, you'll have to use the European, since there's this kinda curious bias with both variants. So... they're both correct, but if you say: Você vai ajudar me? in Portugal, they will probably correct you, since that's just the tiny differences they both don't share for different reasons.

In summary: In Brazil, the placement of indirect object pronoun before the verb is usual.

Espero que isso ajude você! Tenha um bom dia!

October 10, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

Você vai me ajudar? (no hyphen in BrP)
Você vai ajudar-me?

edited.

October 18, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scutigera

Você vai ajudá-me?

The final consonant in the verbs is not elided unless it is a 3rd person object pronoun attached with the hyphen (ênclise/enclisis):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_personal_pronouns#Allomorphs

And in 1st Person Plural (2nd Person Plural too in EP):

When a verb conjugated in the 1st person plural, ending in -s, is followed by the enclitic pronoun nos [or vos 2nd Person Plural], the s is dropped. Examples: "Vamo-nos [vamos + nos] embora amanhã" (We are leaving tomorrow), "Respeitemo-nos [respeitemos + nos] mutuamente" (Let's respect each other).

https://www.learn-portuguese-with-rafa.com/european-portuguese-pronouns.html

https://theepexperience.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/grammar-tips-16-personal-pronouns-2-object-pronouns-direct-indirect/


Well, all that and that the EP Portuguese speaker would avoid the use of "você" as well. :)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255604157_Sociolinguistic_Aspects_of_Forms_of_Address_in_Portugal_and_Brazil_TU_or_VOCE

To finally get, Vai ajudar-me?

October 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emeyr

Thank you the info re: "ajudar me". I will correct my post.

Regarding the use of "você" in Portugal, "você" is used in Portugal as a compromise between the intimate "tu" and the more formal "o/a senhor/a." Certainly, it would have made no sense for me as a tourist hiring a cab driver in Lisbon to address the driver as "tu" or as "senhor". I used "você" speaking identifiable syntax "brasileiro" with no problem. Also, Brazilian novelas have had an impact on EuP speech just as American media has influenced BrE.

https://portuguese.stackexchange.com/questions/4432/o-uso-de-você-em-portugal-é-ofensivo

"...Já perante uma pessoa mais velha com a qual tenho confiança, não ouso usar "tu" devido à assimetria de idades, mas o formalismo preconizado por "o senhor" também se revela desnecessário, assim sendo, "você" é um compromisso muito usado em Portugal entre o informalismo do tu e formalismo do/a senhor(a)."

October 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MemeMcQueen116

A bit off topic but out of mere curiosity did you get this from a YouTube video to do with the differences between Portuguese and Spanish? One was uploaded yesterday and it said something about that (of course it wasn't the main topic, it just briefly mentioned it so it wouldn't have been much help). It even used the exact same example sentence.

October 11, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexinaLock

The funny thing is that I did! Paul from LangFocus? It's always confused me but I was like whatever who cares, till that same day I was actually corrected by two people on the placement so I was like that's weird and then I saw the video!

October 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sadness

rooyaguirre is wrong.

The placement of pronouns is standardize and both brazilian portuguese and portuguese from portugal adhere to the exact same rules. What happens is that, while portuguese tend to use the enclitic position of the pronoun when it is possible (many times they just think it is possible but it is not, frequently making mistakes) and the proclitic position when the enclicitc position is not possible, brazilians will 99% always use the proclitic position, which you can never go wrong (except in one very specific case).

If you dont have a very firm grasp of the language go with the proclitic position, if you do, pick the one you like most, mix and match (yes you can match, very advance stuff though)

October 12, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RooyAguirre

Ouch. That was harsh. And well... I get to know something else! Thanks for explaining it better!

October 13, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/blurflux

To a degree, you were correct and he was wrong. He was mostly correct in that the standard form of the language is the same across the Atlantic, but not that you should always use proclisis. It sounds quite illiterate in any country that uses New Portuguese grammar, and it is only colloquial in Brazil.

https://www.recantodasletras.com.br/gramatica/3378489

October 17, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/standelf

The difference in the placement of pronoun clitics is one of the biggest differences between the two. Only in formal writing Brazilian Portuguese seems to follow the same rules as European Portuguese, but in reality they behave differently.

November 4, 2018
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