https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss

New English->French A/B tree12 with 156 skills, 741 lessons, 4906 "DL lexemes ids" is out

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How is this new EN->FR A/B tree called? V5?

UPDATE:
Obviously it is called Tree12 and the previous staff tree is Tree8 (not V4) as Tree2 already was V5 :-)

Quote Sitesurf:
Well, if I remember well, the oldest French tree still currently available to some users is labelled Tree2. It was not the 2nd version since the first was Tree0 (2012). It was actually V3.1 (@2015?), therefore the 5th version, with 78 skills.
The last Tree version written by the volunteer team was launched in March this year. It is commonly called Tree3 (and the 6th version of the French course), with 96 skills.
The latest two French trees produced by Duolingo staff and currently in A/B test are labelled Tree8 (119 skills) and Tree12 (156 skills) respectively. Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29741879$comment_id=29753568

Tree data

French tree stats: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29741879

  • Skills: 156+2
  • Lessons: 741+6
  • Crowns: 782
  • Duolingo "Lexemes ids": 4906+39
  • (Real) Lexemes: unknown
    (the shown "1913 words" number is the wrong lexemes number from an older tree as users have to firstly complete this new tree and then poll the "learned lexemes" from the "vocabulary API"

I found this new French tree on Callie's Duome userprofile:
https://www.duome.eu/Callie_allen3
https://www.duome.eu/Callie_allen3/progress

Callie you are famous now :-)

Best regards / Viele Grüße

3 months ago

39 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/ArpsTnd
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So does that mean that I'm going to restart my tree some time soon and have to repeat "Je suis une pomme." a hundred more times?

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MarkHaydos

I'm giving you a lingot because you're an apple :)

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lemniscatarum
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If you're part of the A/B test...yes!

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scarcerer
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If they haven't touched the early skills, no. If they have touched them, no, but you have to repeat "Je suis une banane" a hundred times.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/_M_M_.
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I think a few months back they announced they wouldn't update anyone's tree for about 6 months. If so, that would mean only new French learners would get this new tree.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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@M_M

I think a few months back they announced they wouldn't update anyone's tree for about 6 months.

Yes, I linked it in the "French trees explained" thread: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29435599

Changes ahead for tree transitions: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220

If so, that would mean only NEW French learners would get this new tree.

Yes, definitely.
Callie has recently signed up on Duolingo.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredrikVC

You should be able to test out of a lot of the earlier levels

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MikeNolan6

It seems like if you're on the V2 tree, like me, you're still going to stay on the V2 tree.

I don't know why there are now 3 trees in development, I just wish there was a better search function for the discussion forum in development, the current one sucks!

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fuurinkazan.
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What's the deal with updating the french course every 2 months? If it’s good, then that’s great. I just think it could be a bit frustrating for the french learners when the tree is constantly changing, especially if the change is thorough and moving everything around.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Neverending_Rory
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It would be great if we could opt in or out somehow; I would love to have a ton more content available in one of my target languages.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LaurynnSnow

I understand how you feel, I feel frustrated that I'm stuck with the oldest and shortest tree, however if you made it opt in/out that would introduce a confound that would basically ruin the scientific research of testing these trees side by side. If one group is full of people who chose to opt in, and one is full of people who chose to opt out, it's not random selection.

Presumably, the people who opt in and want a bigger more robust tree, are likely people who are more patient and more passionate about taking the time to learn the language. Alternatively, the opt out bunch are probably more interested in the "gameification" aspect and are more likely to just want to rush through their tree and then will stop. I'd say the opt in crowd is probably more likely to out perform the opt out crowd in language learning. So if the new tree gets better results than the old tree, you don't know if it's actually better, or the people who chose to opt in to the test are just better learners.

My assumption about the opt in group out performing the opt out group is only a hypothesis, but if you are relying on confounding variables instead of truly random selection, you can't trust your results either way.

That being said, I want Duolingo to hurry up and glue some more skills onto my tree!

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CadetheBruce
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If it is a new tree, it's a new staff-made tree for certain. 782 crowns? For a course only meant to get you to A1, A2 at best? Learn French through boredom! Jesus, save us.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredrikVC

Double the vocabulary size. Might be worth it.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fuurinkazan.
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A high lexeme count would really help many courses to be less repetitive here. Let’s hope the french course is turning out great.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ros186385
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Thanks for the warning. Unless they make it easier to test out to a much higher level than you can at the moment, though, that's probably my cue to abandon Duolingo french. Je ne suis pas une pomme.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lunanya
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I really hope they don't just add more beginner stuff at the beginning of the tree again but some more advanced stuff in the middle or at the end. I'm currently still busy with testing out all the many skills they added at the beginning with the last update and so far it's all stuff that I already know. I'd really appreciate more advanced things.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MinhTranDo
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In contrast, they have removed many major grammar points in the previous trees. In the latest version (tree12), the grammar still stops at Present Subjunctive. Also, Passive Voice is removed. So, basically, learners are getting more words, less grammar. Meanwhile, the Spanish tree has a significant tree change like this, but it still keeps the old skills from the contributor courses, even with grammar skills. I'd say that the newer the tree is, the easier the grammar becomes, though the creators seem to intend to focus on very basic points: verb conjugations for every subjects are introduced in most grammar tips and notes (but this is what a French dictionary can do), more daily phrases (but without knowing why). And I can be sure that the lack of systematic grammar teaching (as what the contributor's tree has) will not make learners become more fluent in the language.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
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Judging from the kinds of questions I've seen many level-25 (and multiples thereof) users ask, I think there's good reason to surmise a very substantial portion of the user base has much to gain from a lot more opportunity to drill basic concepts. For those who are further along, well, I guess that's part of why they made sure to have the test-out options in place before the era of the mega-trees really ramped up.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/magicafan
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Right there with you. I really don't want to keep repeating the same stuff over and over. I want to be challenged more.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MinhTranDo
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@Thomas.Heiss Well it seems like Duo is giving the tree5 for random new accounts. In a hope of getting tree3, I logged out of this account and do a placement test without registering first. After testing out of 17 skills, it turned out I was doing with the 156-skill tree, which has a different design from its preceeders with skills grouped into Part One -> Part Six/ Seven, and the tips and notes are also provided. https://duome.eu/Priestess4

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Wayne288681

How can I get the new tree?

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Reichsritter14

Wow, that new version of the French course is the biggest course yet on Duolingo! I hope it comes out for everyone ASAP. I'd love to start French, but I only have access to V2 right now and I don't want to start with that.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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Quote T.H: How is this new EN->FR A/B tree called? V5?

UPDATE:
Obviously it is called Tree12 and the previous staff tree is Tree8 (not V4) as Tree2 already was V5 :-)

Quote Sitesurf:

Well, if I remember well, the oldest French tree still currently available to some users is labelled Tree2. It was not the 2nd version since the first was Tree0 (2012). It was actually V3.1 (@2015?), therefore the 5th version, with 78 skills

The last Tree version written by the volunteer team was launched in March this year. It is commonly called Tree3 (and the 6th version of the French course), with 96 skills.

The latest two French trees produced by Duolingo staff and currently in A/B test are labelled Tree8 (119 skills) and Tree12 (156 skills) respectively. Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29741879$comment_id=29753568

French tree stats: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29741879

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KushGG
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I THINK THAT IT IS ONLY FOR THE NEW MEMBERS BECAUSE MY FRENCH TREE IS STILL THE SAME AS IT WAS A YEAR AGO . JUST I HAVE TO LEVEL UP THE SKILLS. AND ArpsTnd "ES-TU UNE POMME?"

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Seattle_scott
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Thanks Thomas. I’m ok with getting new trees. They can just throw them at me all they want. At first I was annoyed with the loss of crowns and tree reset, but I’m over it. My new goal is to see to see how many “we now accept this answer” emails I can get.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RobertB33
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I'd like to change from tree 8 to tree 12 now... is that possible?

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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@RobertB33

Quote: I'd like to change from tree 8 to tree 12 now... is that possible?

No, it's not possible. You can't.
It is forced / done by the system automatically.

I never have seen an "opt-in" question to a new tree x (A/B) test if you want to participate like I had seen the opt-in message for the "crown update" in February 2018 if I would like to participate (I refused that question until I was forced in April ;)).

For example I would like to enroll into the updated Portuguese->English A/B tree test (it is much longer) just because I have not "really" started the old tree and I would not care to lose my L1 crown progress for the first few skills.
Only a few users (old users are randomly selected by the system, mostly new users who participate who add that course to their profile) are allowed to access new trees.

..(...)..

Currently (thankfully for all French tree3 owners) the state is frozen.

See the moderator thread "Changes ahead for tree transitions": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220

However, if you really want to play around you can access tree12 (four trees!) as a NEW user in a private browsing (no activity tracking) window: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29810695

Make sure you catch the right French tree of those four A/B tests available BEFORE you create a new user account on Duolingo!

May take you a while to get the one as the two versions of tree8 were recently still offered as an A/B test.

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredrikVC

Please don't switch me over until January. I'm trying to accomplish something specific by the end of the year.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/B4burrell

why wait until January to switch?

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Thomas.Heiss
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@B4burell

Because crowns are not very compatible with "tree updates".

As you have to complete each skill at least on crown level L1 to move forward:
It makes more sense being able to finish the course (all skills) you have started (e.g Tree 2 or Tree3) before tree progress is updated and some converted skills will be reset to crown level L0.

Otherwise you will have to repeat earlier skills or test them out again which will prevent further course progress and unlocking new skills.

..(...)..

When a tree update occurs, our "extended user profile" variables "missing_lessons", "num_missing" (for lexemes) and "next_lesson" will be updated.

To be able to UNLOCK new (grey) skills, you first have to REDO previous lessons (on L0) = "crown sessions" and re-learn the NEW words which have been added to a skill.

Summary: Tree updates are going to interrupt your course progress.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
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As you have to complete each skill at least on crown level L1 to move forward:

I have not seen a tree update that actually worked this way. Normally progress into never-seen skills is unhindered by the fact that some earlier skills have been reset to L0.

They can give me the new tree whenever they want :)

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredrikVC

Moi? I have two specific short term goals that I plan to achieve by December 31. If they swap my tree I won't be able to accomplish them.

This doesn't mean that swapping out the tree with a bigger tree won't help me achieve my medium and long term goals. In fact, it will be extremely useful. But please hold off until January.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/B4burrell

of the things that crucially need updating/changing....why is it still a computerised voice for the dictation.

it sounds so bad and the liaison is awful.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/EbolasGumikacsa

I don't think there is a huge problem with the audio. The male voice works very well, and although the female voice can be misleading sometimes, I don't think it's that bad. You wouldn't hear anyone speak perfectly clearly french anywhere anyway (everyone has some accent, or you can't hear them properly because of noises from the environment), so it's good for practicing situations like that.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Seattle_scott
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i would respectfully disagree. i’m fluent in French, have a masters degree and lived there. And yet sometimes the audio is so bad I can’t understand it. The male voice is usually better than the female voice and the volume levels are different. Not only that but the gender of the speakers often don’t match the sentences. The audio, in my opinion is a serious weak point for Duo, and is the one single improvement that would best help Duo be better.

But it’s not just French, it’s all the languages. The audio is Duo’s weak point.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
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Meh, everybody should just learn Hungarian ;) In all seriousness why Duolingo is willing to supply native speaker audio for only a smattering of courses where the TTS just isn't good enough but not for ones with many more users is a mystery. There's the no turtle option thing, but there should be any number of ways around that.

Did they change the French voices recently? I don't recall any particular comprehension issues, and I think I've generally had a female voice.

As to the voice of the speaker matching the sentence, I think that's an unnecessary crutch. Part of learning French is learning to hear the gender distinctions in the language.

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Seattle_scott
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les gouts et les couleurs, ça ne se discute pas. :-)

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Xia267
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I have Tree2 (v5) and just started learning. I wonder why that is....

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
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The assignment to one tree or the other may be made at the time of beginning the French course. Or there may be some existing accounts converted to the new tree (irrespective of whether they have or haven't started it), and you' have one of them.

3 months ago
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