https://www.duolingo.com/AlexanderS548497

Wymowa ł Ł in polish language

I was reading about the polish prounciation and I found this in wikipedia:


"In Slavic languages, it represents the continuation of Proto-Slavic non-palatal l (dark L), except in Polish where it evolved further into /w/. In most non-European languages, it represents a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative or similar sound. In Polish, ⟨Ł⟩ is used to distinguish historical dark (velarized) L from clear L. The Polish Ł sounds similar to the English "w".

In 1440, Jakub Parkoszowic [pl] proposed a letter resembling ℓ {\displaystyle \ell } \ell to represent clear L. For dark L he suggested ⟨l⟩ with a stroke running in the opposite direction as the modern version.[citation needed] The latter was introduced in 1514–1515 by Stanisław Zaborowski in his Orthographia seu modus recte scribendi et legendi Polonicum idioma quam utilissimus. L with stroke originally represented a velarized alveolar lateral approximant [ɫ],[2] a pronunciation that is preserved in the eastern part of Poland[3] and among the Polish minority in Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine. This pronunciation is similar to Russian unpalatalised ⟨Л⟩ in native words and grammar forms.

In modern Polish, ⟨Ł⟩ is normally pronounced /w/ (exactly as w in English as a consonant, as in will).[4] This pronunciation first appeared among Polish lower classes in the 16th century. It was considered an uncultured accent by the upper classes (who pronounced ⟨Ł⟩ as /ɫ/) until the mid-20th century when this distinction gradually began to fade.

The shift from [ɫ] to [w] in Polish has affected all instances of dark L, even word-initially or intervocalically, e.g. ładny ("pretty, nice") is pronounced [ˈwadnɨ], słowo ("word") is [ˈswɔvɔ], and ciało ("body") is [ˈtɕawɔ]. Ł often alternates with clear L, such as the plural forms of adjectives and verbs in the past tense that are associated with masculine personal nouns, e.g. mały → mali ([ˈmawɨ] → [ˈmali]). Alternation is also common in declension of nouns, e.g. from nominative to locative, tło → na tle ([twɔ] → [naˈtlɛ]).

Polish final Ł also often corresponds to Ukrainian word-final ⟨В⟩ (Cyrillic) and Belarusian ⟨Ў⟩ (Cyrillic). Thus, "he gave" is "dał" in Polish, "дав" in Ukrainian, "даў" in Belarusian (all pronounced [daw]), but "дал" [daɫ] in Russian. The old pronunciation [ɫ] of Ł is still fully understandable but is considered theatrical in most regions.


So basically all poles said l like russians back in the medival age. Then why do people say "oh it is russian accent to pronounce this that way", when they said it back then the same way. This is not a russian thing or ukrainian thing, it was also a polish thing. The poles I talked to did not even know this. I like the sound . I also like the new ł but i would prefer the old version, however if you say słuchałem, i find it hard to say the second ł like this dark l. In that position I would prefer the normal ł.

If I would use this dark l, would poles think immediatley that i am not polish or even ukrainian? What do they mean by this artikel : The old pronunciation [ɫ] of Ł is still fully understandable but is considered theatrical in most regions. I wonder if you could so to speak "revive" some sounds. I would also like to keep polish rather clear of foreign influences, espeically influences of languages which are completely different. Because then there will be such a mess like english sometimes is.

A ukrainian waitres told once me that I sound a little ukrainian, I was really surprised: Why do I sound ukrainian? That's impossible. I pronounced everything normal, also the ł and I am not from any slavic country. ( I mean I was not born in one) Maybe they just heared I am foreign and assumed that I am ukranian. But an Ukrainiec should know better than a pole. I bet I have anyways an accent, depending on what I say. But ukrainian? Others told me i just have an accent, but they can not tell where I am from, given that i do not say the gardło r which exist only in the german language, I think . And I am not sure, but I think also some people in silesian, katowice maybe say it, but they say it a little bit different than germans , stronger, and not everyone. Since their accents, and dialects also seem to differ a little at least. Correct me if I am wrong.

December 7, 2018

4 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Googlata

What do they mean by this artikel : The old pronunciation [ɫ] of Ł is still fully understandable but is considered theatrical in most regions.

The Ł pronunciation as /ɫ/ is present in Polish, but you would normally come across it:

  • in the old Polish movies or theaters (hence the /ɫ/ is also called ł sceniczne (theatrical Ł) in Polish);
  • in the far east of Poland, near the borders;
  • in some dialects e.g. Kashubian (if you consider it as a dialect of Polish, not a separate language).

Otherwise, in standard Polish, ł should be pronounced as /w/.

If I would use this dark l, would poles think immediatley that i am not polish or even ukrainian?

They would take you as Russian (less likely) or Ukrainian (more likely), because the pronunciation of Ł as /ɫ/ is simply unmet (outside the cases mentioned above) in standard Polish.

btw the dark l sound is also found in dialects of the german language, (cologne) but i think thats just a coincidence. It has probably no connection the slavic dark l . Or as you all now in in english. I never thought about this. pull all fall ...

This sound appears in many languages, including the Germanic ones.

December 7, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexanderS548497

btw the dark l sound is also found in dialects of the german language, (cologne) but i think thats just a coincidence. It has probably no connection the slavic dark l . Or as you all now in in english. I never thought about this. pull all fall ...

December 7, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/BenConway6

Sad to say, but the evolution (or devolution) of a regular [l] to [w] is also present in some British English dialects. I quite often hear 'bottle' as [botuw] or [boʔuw], and 'small' as [smo:w].

January 29, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/CirAtzix

"Słuchałem i słabłem i słuchałem i słabłem."
https://instaud.io/31lQ
Sounds OK.
;)

December 7, 2018
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