New "Immersion" tab
We just upgraded everybody to the new wiki-style translations first described here: http://duolingo.com/#/comment/261407
After two weeks of testing with tens of thousands of people, it became clear they are more enjoyable, so we're giving them to everybody. While the previous version did a few things well, we felt it was over-constrained and was not as enjoyable as our lessons.
The main idea is to give more emphasis to reading real documents in the language you're learning. Instead of dropping you in the middle of a document and asking you to translate a randomly selected sentence as we did before, we place you at the top of the document and let you freely interact with it.
Some of the sentences in the document may already have a translation from a community member. If you put your mouse over one of these, the current translation is shown above it, and the word that you're hovering over will be highlighted in both the original sentence and the translation (of course, this won't always be possible because there is not an exact correspondence between the words in the original language and the translation).
For each sentence, you can either edit its translation (much like you would edit a wiki), or you can say that the translation looks good to you by clicking on the check button. Once you've done this, the sentence turns green to indicate that you've read it and understood it. You get points for going over each sentence :)
If an article is not yet finished, the sentences may stop having a translation after a certain point. For those, you can be the first to add a translation (and get points by doing so!).
There are many other bells and whistles, such as comments on each sentence, a revision history of all the translations, the ability to follow a given sentence in case you want to be notified of any changes somebody makes, etc.
I don't like it. The new system forces me to go through the text and review/correct others' translations, influencing the translation I was supposed to do. The old system felt much less restrained and I was able to pick sentences that I felt I was capable of translating (or barely capable) and actually try to translate them BEFORE I could see other attempts.
This way forces me to review and read sentences that are way beyond my capability to translate, sometimes even to comprehend, and when I get to the sentence that I CAN translate I already get a solution, making the process of translation no longer challenging.
I am a translator/interpreter in RL and I prefer NOT to see somebody's translation of the text I'm working on, as it changes the entire process and influences the way I think and, finally, translate.
Please give us the option to go back to the old style, it won't influence your final product much if (as you say) most of the users like the new style.
In wikipedia there is a rule (or at least in catalan wikipedia) which says that, whenever two users revert their editions 3 times or more, the article (in duolingo's case, the sentence) becomes blocked, to prevent that two users revert their editions every time without any kind of previous discussion.
I say this because I'm having a similar problem right now, where a user is reverting every time a german sentence that I've translated, but he's doing it wrong, because the sentence has a verb in preteritum but he translates the verb into present, and, although I've left a comment in the sentence telling him to please not change the verb into present, he keeps reverting the edit and doing it wrong, I guess just to get points.
Okay now I'm going to sound like a whiny and negative person but I don't like the new style at all. I think it's confusing and disorganized, unlike the old layout. Now the translation just pops up whenever you accidently hover your mouse over it and also the rewarding system feels, at least now, to be very unclear to me.
Also for some reason I find it very inconvenient that the editing button and all the other buttons are inside the text, I liked it when it was tidy and nicely under the boxes where you were supposed to type your translation.
Could someone maybe point out some positive aspects of this update since I really can't spot any?
I, too, feel the same way. The location of the new translation box seems a bit haphazard -just unorganized. Also, there is no way we can even check other people's translations; I'm sure that many more poor translations will go through undetected this way. The old method was much more clear and approachable.
Thanks for these comments!
While the previous version did a few things well, we felt it was over-constrained and was not as enjoyable as our lessons. We won't be happy until the translations are every bit as enjoyable as the lessons in the skill tree.
In user testing, the new system performed significantly better. We believe this is because translating a random sentence in the middle of an article was never a great experience -- the sentences were translated out of order and there was less of a sense that the community was working together to finish the article.
I would like to encourage you to give the new system more of a try.
I prefer it, I like being able to read linearly and don't mind the buttons or where I have to type my translation.
But I think you need to separate hovering over a word for a single word translation and hovering over for an English translation. I often want to check the translation for one word in the sentence and then an easy-to-read English sentence appears and I just read that instead of learning. I'd like to try to read the sentence on my own first and then check using the English sentence.
One aspect of the old system that I really enjoyed was that it gave you a sentence that you COULD translate based on the work you'd already done. I am almost fluent in Spanish, but am learning Italian nearly from scratch (Thanks so much for the opportunity!) While it's nice to have a bit more freedom in what you're translating, I was a bit frustrated when I realized that I couldn't translate most of what I clicked on. Is there a way that you could rank the sentences based on what level of proficiency you would suggest to have before attempting to translate it? And then you could ask for documents which included sentences in your proficiency level. I enjoyed translating sentences, but with such a low level of understanding, I feel I can't adequately contribute.
I agree with you KestrelLady. I am overwhelmed by the amount of text that I am unable to understand (lest say translate properly) for the current immersion format. Luis, the new format is an awesome idea once someone has a certain level of proficiency in the newly-acquired language, but it actually demoralises a new learner who fervently wanted to contribute to the community. Perhaps we could implement a gamification system whereby this new format is unlocked to learners who managed to achieve a certain level of proficiency in a certain language.
Yes, more interesting articles, please. I tried finding articles relevant to my interests and found it to be nearly impossible. Due to that, I spend much more time on the lessons than I do bothering with the articles. Well, that along with the old system being pretty confusing.
My mother uses Duolingo as well and she didn't understand the old system with the articles, so she just stuck to the lessons and tests.
Can't wait to try out this new system.
I was translating an article about Educators : https://www.duolingo.com/#/translation/ed14dc09c203182cf450e9ee2124dcea
Several issues came up:
Upon editing, the previous paragraph gets hidden under the pop up. And, you can't see the translation of the previous sentence simultaneously. So if you want to see if you have translated métier as or job , business or profession, you have to close the window that your working on.
Clicking outside the popup closes the popup AND clears it ie. when you click on the pencil again, what you have written is not there anymore.
Not possible to translate the next sentences then return to the previous. A subtitle may have several meanings, which may only become clear after translating the subsection first. eg Y a t il des stages durant la formation? Does stages mean: work experience courses professional training?
Previously, if your translation was too different from what DuoBot said, it was thrown out. Now however, a single . is needed to get the coins and move on.
10 bonus points for translating the whole article?! In the Porsche Design Advert Article (https://www.duolingo.com/#/translation/da711bb529041371c93d4743e370c58b), for only just 73 points of effort you get 10 bonus points for translating the whole article, while with the Educator article, weighing at 342 points you get 10 points! The bonus points for completing an article should be representative of the article.
Italics / titles / subsections can help a lot in the translation of the article. It would be much helpful if, for example in the educator article, Doke was in italic, like it is on it's original page. http://fr.wikimini.org/wiki/%C3%89ducateur
Sometimes - more so recently - Duo freezes. This is most noticeable in the lessons, and wasn't much noticeable in the translations. Until now that is. Before, you could go onto the next item to be translated while waiting for the data to be sent, but not anymore. Needless to say, it's very irritating.
If you level up while translating (which I did), you don't see the You leveled up screen.
I know this has been said many times in this thread alone, but where are the interesting articles? Is the French language only used for adverts? On the Immersion page Duo is telling us to Help the World! by translating the whole internet one piece at time. Currently it seems that we are Helping the Adverts persuade the whole market, one ad at a time. The articles on the Popular tab are all either 0 or -[some number]. It would be great if there were science articles in French! Not too hard though: maybe an automated rating system based on the average word length, corresponding to points achieved / progress in tree.
The Immersion Tab on Android ----- Houston, we have a problem May seems like a year away...
With all my (positive) criticism, I thank you and the rest of the hardworking Duolingo team for providing language learners all over the world, an enjoyable, free, language learning experience.
Maybe I misunderstand something with the new immersion tab ??? When when I go on immersion section and to "your history" ALL the sentences I translated a few months ago are marked as NOT TRANSLATED; my translation/immersion history in my stream has been partly deleted and in the new immersion (=your history) it is COMPLETELY DELETED. Is that really the way the new system is supposed to work ?
It looks like if i just want points i can basically hover over each sentence in an article and just click 'check' without even reading or translating. How do you combat people just checking every box and saying yes to them all no matter their skill? I get the layout and making it more enjoyable, but while doing this it has become less of a teaching tool in my opinion. This layout is more pleasing with full articles you can choose from but it should have some of the old system where you have to translate yourself before checking it and why no option to hear the sentence spoken anymore? i liked that so i could hear how to pronounce the words i was not familiar with. Why completely change the way it works instead of just improving from what you already have?
I feel like the old system which i only just began using properly, because i was getting my word strength up, was more involving, I think this might work well for the more advanced users but for people trying to learn and not just strengthen their knowledge it isn't very effective. Was the Beta Test done with a range of users, from new users to the more experienced?
Change is good, and there are some improvements, but change should be gradual not extreme to have any effect.
I agree completely, you should definitely check in to this stuff guys.. The option of hearing the sentence was pretty useful (not the most natural voice, but useful nonetheless). And the thing about people hovering and just ticking, that's true too, the other way was better, at least you had to translate before earning points for choosing the best translation. Cheers.
Never spent much time translating before this upgrade, since I never felt quite up to the task (since there's no correspondence between one's skill level and the level of proficiency required to translate a given text decently). Nevertheless, I gave it a look, and so far there's only one thing that bugs me. I can't pick the bit of text I want to translate. Maybe there's a bunch of easy sentences for me, but I can't get to them without first translating the ones before them. Is there any reason for this?
And if you'll indulge me going a bit off-topic now, since there are people here complaining about the lack of interest of the articles: don't have a clue if this is possible, but it would be a great idea to display articles that I have actually read in English. That way, it's guaranteed I'll be reading stuff I'm interested in. (Example: I spend quite some time in Wikipedia, reading about lots of different things. Just now I looked at the Italian Wikipedia articles available, and all I could see was an endless list of obscure personalities).
Well what the heck did you do that for? :(
This new "Immersion" tab has created many new problems, and makes it much harder to translate. Now we are no longer able to vote for best translations, translate just any sentence in the article, see how others have translated the article, etc... and its kind of annoying.
Before I was able to translate even from touchscreen devices, now I am no longer able to. And I dont really have any desire to translate from my computer with this new system. But if so many people really did prefer it this way, please allow an option to switch to the old way! That way those of us comfortable with the old system can continue to contribute and "translate the web".
It doesn't reflect the way I work on a translation. I like to read a sentence or phrase and then write down my idea, which I later edit until I'm satisfied. The word order or even the phrase order may change according to what sounds natural. Without writing space I don't feel the same enthusiasm for checking someone else's work.
I suspect this new system will be dominated by those who like to get in first, with everyone else getting to run along behind and do the checking for them. The old system (despite it's faults) seemed to give everyone an equal chance.
"I suspect this new system will be dominated by those who like to get in first, with everyone else getting to run along behind and do the checking for them."
You're exactly right. It seems like almost every article is already translated whenever I look and all I have left to do is seek out bad translations to correct.
I find it a problem that if I can't translate a sentence myself, but at the same time I think the current translation looks bad... there's nothing that can be done.
It's a little unfriendly for beginners. If no user has translated a sentence and I cannot translate it, I can't even attempt sentences in the article I think I might be able to. I know you want to avoid disjointed sentences as people translate out of context, but that could easily be solved as it is now (user voting, editing and bonus points for completing a whole article). Forcing users to work from top to bottom easily excludes new users who simply can't in some areas. So rather than attempting sentences I think I can achieve, I just don't translate at all.
Also, where I can join in, I just find myself correcting weird English of the already translated sentence... rather than actually translating. I end up not considering the original sentence as I did in the old system where other translations where hidden until after.
New system looks good, it looks like a lot of hard work went into it, but I do find it less useful in helping me learn so far. If it was simply that users would get bonus points for assessing the whole thing, but you could still select sentences anywhere, I think I'd have no complaints.
I really like the way you can now view a whole article and read it from the start rather than being dropped in at random, thanks for all your hard work on this!
However, a bit of feedback from the point of view of a relative beginner - the way that you are forced to start from the beginning in untranslated articles is not ideal. If I scan through I can often find simple sentences that I could translate at my level, but I can't simply select that sentence until I get through much more complex sentences that are beyond my level and I'm pretty much guaranteed to make a bad job of.
Maybe a system could be introduced where you can pick and choose the sentences you think you can translate, but there is still a bonus for going through the whole thing for the more advanced users? That way the beginners can have a go and the continuity will be maintained by advanced users checking what they've done as they go through the whole thing?
There are some things I think are better about the new setup and some I think are worse.
I like how there are bonuses for finishing the article and I like how I can see how far along an article is. The latter is something I've been wanting for a while.
On the negative side, I don't like how there is now a "best" translation that is being worked on. Often I might feel that I have a different way of phrasing a translation which I think is better, but for which I feel that someone else might legitimately disagree as to whether it is better. I'm reluctant to edit someone else's translation in such a circumstance, while I was previously very happy to put my variant translation into the pool of possibilities and let people choose the possibility they prefer. That no long seems possible, either I edit what is there or I move on.
I agree with what you are saying but if you submit your version (right or wrong) you will get more points than if you just move on.Unfortunately this opens the possibility of people just editing to get more points regardless of the accuracy of the translation submitted.However the translation history should end up with some good efforts in it to compare with the bad ones allowing you to learn from the skills and mistakes of others.
I like this new format! It's surely much better than the old one. A few thoughts:
Now one can really feel like a translator, not just jumping to a random sentence in a random article, but starting the translation from the beginning of the text. It is also easier to compare one's understanding with that of the other users, and the sense of coöperation is stronger.
However, the rewards seem to be unbalanced. One can easily get a hundred points in a few minutes by translating, while clearing a lesson with about 20 questions gives only 10-13 points, and that's if you get the answers right - if not you get none.
How about introducing an option to translate f r o m English t o the language one is learning? It would surely be challenging, and the quality of the translation would not necessarily be impressive, but one would get a chance to use one's new language more actively.
I like that we are viewing and translating a text as whole.
Still I don't like that I am now seeing the last translation, I liked it more when I had to translate from scratch (now it feels little bit like cheating).
Nevertheless I will try it some more and then update this comment.
Thanks for your hard work
I like the new Immersion style, but you still need to format the documents better, here are the suggestions in order of necessity:
- show pictures at the right point in the text and work out a new way to display captions (possibly extend the box you put around pictures to the left so it includes the caption)
- add subheadings and subtitles
- If the document has no pictures don't waste space showing the owl picture in the document
- somehow show links (either underline or change the colour of the text) and when users hover over a link show where it directs to (use the same darker grey box you use to show genders when users hover over words)
- retain bold text, italics and underlines (if you use underlines to show links show unlinked underlined text in bold this has the same sort of emphasis)
- Show where a new paragraph starts (indent the first sentence or something)
- possibly format quotes in a special way (oversized times-new-roman quote signs next to the sentences often works)
this webapp is quite good at taking the main text from a site and giving it a consistent format: http://evernote.com/clearly/
My students and I all prefer the old system which encourages a balanced blend of learning and translating. Is there a way to give an option for those who prefer the old mode? Incidentally, when we first started, my students raved about how duolingo helped them rapidly improve their accuracy and usage. With the new switch, I have students increasing faster in points, but not increasing in their language skills that show up in class.
I would be interested to see if the research you did on the effectiveness of duolingo compared to traditional coursework still holds true with your new immersion model. My observations indicate that my students getting the most points are not learning as much as they used to. I supervise 40 other language teachers in my school district and have heavily endorsed this program, so I am very interested in seeing this issue resolved. Thank you for thoughtfully considering our input!
I'm happy to try something new, Luis. Yesterday I thought the immersion format was odd, but today it was fun! When different people translate random sentences, the documents lose continuity. This format forces you to be more decisive, to consider the flow of the entire piece, and to follow through to the end. Brilliant!
I like the new system a lot, but the content is truly horrible - extremely commercial and uninteresting. Please change that! Also, I find that the immersion categories don't really work that well for me, I'd like some more choice :)
And something I noticed a few times already: if you start a translation and then click somewhere else in the page, you'll loose your work.
I found the new immersion more challenging today. I miss being able to see previous translations at a glance, and the chance to rate them. It feels more of an individualised experience, as opposed to the previous one which felt like more of a community effort to translating a document.
I have to say I don't care for the "Immersion" method. I'm not sufficiently proficient to be a proof-reader which is apparently all that is needed since the "best" translation has already been chosen. I wanted to try to translate. Now, I feel like, "Why bother? It's already done." My effort isn't going to get the time of day. I find it rather defeating.
Being one of the later students to be updated I watched the discussion closely and even with all of the information wasn't sure exactly what to expect. Now that I've been upgraded, its great. I love not being dropped in the middle of a translation and being able to read the entire document. But in spite of everyone saying that is easy street, there were a lot of untranslated sentences that were necessary for completion. This is the second time I've signed up for Duo... all I can say is it keeps getting better. Who cares about a few hearts, its all about learning a language. Before the change on my second attempt, I kept repeating lessons as I discovered after a two month break there was a lot I didn't remember and in the first attempt it was all about getting from goal post one to goal post two.
Thanks Duo... Its great!
Lost in translation (sorry immersion)
Thanks Luis for always trying to improve Duolingo
Unfortunately the constant changes in Duolingo, which also force me to change my learning habits again and again, often leave me frustrated. Every time a system seems to be working relatively smoothly, Duolingo feels the itch to change it.
Having said that I would like to point to a few weak points I encountered
a. I translated 4 sentences of "La acuputura sí ayuda con el dolor" and found that I was happy to get skill points for each sentence; after a day (and after contact to Duolingo had broken down for a few hours) I returned to find that the more than 50 skill points in my stream had shrunk to 8 skill points.
b. The revision history usually showed that most people think on similar lines, so why change anything; and the problem of changing the versions back and forth has already been mentioned in this stream.
c. In contrast to Duolingo´s intention to read the complete article, I found myself sticking to one sentence after the other(a problem amichai mentioned already), losing the flow... and the interest
d. What happened to the idea of letting users choose the best sentence and having to live with the choice of the the crowd/crowdsourcing ?
- My suggestion Why not use the resources and work Duolingo already put into its translation/immersion section and offer the THREE versions that have already been used and tested before ? Why not give the user the chance to select what kind of translation-exercise she/he likes best and in this way allow more people to help Duolingo translate the web ?
Thanks for reading this !
I just started Duolingo a few days ago on my mobile. Let me first say that i'm am very happy with the app in general. It's the best one i've come across! And now about 'Immersion';
I am getting daily emails telling me about my progress. I had no idea what the '0 sentences translated' was about. I thought i was missing something in the mobile app. Searched everywhere, but only until i started googling did i find what this was about. Perhaps that could be made more clear for mobile app users? Either in the app itself, or in the emails?
I did eventually find the 'Immersion' tab on here, although i had no idea what i was looking at. Everything i 'touch' is already translated. So i searched in 'Discussion' to try and find out how this works, and i think part of not getting it was exactly that; there was nothing left to translate from scratch, everything has visibly been answered already.
If i want to try and translate a sentence i have to do it in Text Edit (make notes on my computer), because there seems to be no way to do this on here without already getting the answer. To try and do it in my head is not easy for long sentences. And with the answer in front of me i can't practice. It's like getting subtitles. It's not the same as having to use your own knowledge and logic.
And there is little fun in not being able to contribute to anything, because everything seems to have already been translated. Saying 'i think you're right' to someone else's solution is not very fulfilling, nor as educative.
I think for now my '0 sentences translated' will stay at 0, until something changes for the better. (For me at least.)
Exactly my feelings. I thought I was an idiot for not knowing how to use this but I really don't know why something is called a translation when it's just editing of someone else's work. I study translation and interpreting at uni and unfortunately I'm pretty lazy when it comes to working on it in my free time. This would have been fun, getting stuff done and perhaps getting some point for the effort at least. Makes one sort of proud for finishing something. I don't really need to compete for points with others (the community? I didn't even know it existed. I just came to practise for myself) or have my ❤❤❤❤❤❤ translations checked by anyone. For me the whole point would be doing something (anything!) to improve my language skills. This way it's like someone had the party and I am the one who gets to clean it up.
Just scanned the comments below and noticed a slight correlation between those who like the new system and how many lessons they've completed. It seems the more advanced you are with a language the more the new system works for you.
I think people who are new to a language, like me, might benefit from the hand-holding the old system provided. And it seems that one of the key points being made in the comments below is that its hard for people to find sentences at their level of understanding with the new system.
I agree with this as well.
The biggest thing that actually bothers me is that because I have to see other translations before I can make my own, some translations in English seem really awkward even when there are multiple translations showing the same. Some sentences I would translate less rigidly so that the English make better sense.
When the paragraphs are long the place where you are supposed to put your translation can be off the top of the screen when you are looking at the part you are supposed to translate. http://duolingo.com/#/translation/a0a5657dd90f76f7484e3312ad7b81b6 which has a very long paragraph is an example where this occurs.
I just used the new system and it after competing an article it said I had earned 246 coins. Those didn't show up in the weekly stats though. Do I somehow have to submit the article? Or did I miss some part?
Also: in the article I translated 16 sentences while my "sentences translated" score still holds at 10. I think something is wrong here?
EDIT: Never mind - fixed.
I've only been using Duolingo for a couple of weeks now and absolutely love the way I'm learning Italian in the learning tree!! Thank you so much for this opportunity!
I'm so new that I don't know the difference between the new way of translating and the old way but I can tell you that I have tried for two weeks now to figure out how to participate in the translating and am unable to. I would love to be able to find a sentence that is at my beginner level and translate it but can not figure out how. Seems like all of the translations (all levels) are grouped together and all seem to be translated already. Today I actually found an article that had some paragraphs that hadn't been translated but when I clicked on the pencil (edit button) it didn't allow me to translate anything... any help would be greatly appreciated.
Has there been any thought given to creating a video that demonstrates this process?
I know this post is super old, but I was searching through the Discussions to find out if I had totally missed something (I couldn't figure out how to actually complete an article - turns out I had missed some punctuation!) and I couldn't help but notice that many of the problems have been dealt with, and the the suggestions implemented.
So, I guess what I want to say is: Thanks for paying attention to feedback! :)