Tree 2.0 UPDATE! :]
2019 January 26 UPDATE:
Here is an overview of the new version of the Japanese course, which is likely to change slightly as the course approaches beta:
- Total Skills: 75, up from 40
- Total Kanji: ~950, up from ~100
- Target JLPT level: N4, up from N5
- Total Vocabulary Words: ~2,000, up from ~1,000
TENTATIVE TIMELINE (>subject to change<<): We plan to lock the tree on or around February 28. The new tree will enter beta only for new users (people brand-new to Duolingo) sometime in March. If all goes according to plan, 50% of you (existing users) will be able to test the new tree sometime in the spring. If the tree's metrics look positive (and users keep coming back to learn!) this means the A/B test will be successful, and all users will get the new tree sometime around summer.
Here's a quick overview of what the new skill setup looks like, at the very end of the tree. Most of the previous skills have remained in place.
Thanks for keeping the faith!
Awesome! Thanks for continuing to keep us in the loop about the ongoing development of the course. Thanks also to the three new contributors. You guys must be working very hard to be aiming to achieve these targets you've set forth. ^^
I had some serious real life stuff going on around the time of the Tree 2.0 alpha testing announcement post and don't think I actually got around to applying. Have the alpha testers been chosen and are they now already testing the new tree?
I'm very happy to hear that we're going to jump from 103(?) to ~800 kanji! On the other hand, I'm guessing this means the course is going to have an additional 700 tedious character matching exercises... gah... XD
I'll probably miss the challenge of trying to make heads or tails of full hiragana sentences. But at least having more kanji should make it much easier to read sentences quickly in timed practice. :P
You wanna say that course will expand almost twifold (and eightfold in kanjies)? Wow. Just... wow. When I heard about the Tree 2.0, I expected you will add 20% or something like. That's a real present. I wish you good luck. Keep up with this thing, you're doing really good job!
"There are no plans yet for a Tree 2.0, but we'll be sure to make an announcement if those plans do emerge. Right now, Tree 1.0 is our number one priority. We appreciate your support!" - 9 months ago
Please share your progress also in the incubator, not only in the forums. Thank you for all the hard work!
Quote: If I omit my Japanese course and start it all over again, will I be considered a new user and be able to try the new tree?
No, don't do that!
A language RESET won't change your A/B test groups, which are fixed on your account.
You would have to start your old course again.
You had already added the Japanese course before, therefore your current user account is locked to the A/B experiment variables in your "extended user profile".
However, you can use the private browsing feature (no activity tracking) and catch the new tree when it is rolled out.
Once you got it as a new user on the web portal (no cookie present, Duolingo does not know your browser session yet) or your account had never added the JP language course before you start the first lesson or placement test and after that you can register a NEW user account on Duolingo to continue to work on it.
I described the process in more detail in the French forum: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29810695
Are you going to let people know when it comes out in Beta for new users?
We plan to lock the tree on or around February 28. The new tree will enter beta only for new users (people brand-new to Duolingo) sometime in March.
If things have gone to plan, then the tree has already been locked on 28th February. And then it will be out for new users "sometime" between 1st March and 31st March.
9th March is a bit early to be losing interest. There are still 22 more days to go in the "sometime in March" statement mentioned in the timeline plan. xD
It's easy to check if new users have the new tree. I simply log out occasionally and click the "get started" button to start a temporary new account to take a look for myself. Only takes about 30 seconds to check and then log back in to my normal account again. ^^
(I checked just now and the new account I made still had tree 1.0.)
Quote: Is there any plan to add the words tab to the top in the Japanese course?
You can click on the 2nd words tab: https://www.duome.eu/A.Lias/progress
Please also see Lica98's userscript tip which I found in this thread "Duolingo used to be so much better in the past": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/28801963$from_email=comment&comment_id=28802920
For some reason A/B trees are not fully compatible with the www.duolingo.com/words list and the "Vocabulary overview API" stream.
Wow, that duome.eu website is a gold mine!! I had discovered (as some others) recently a way to access the standard “Words” page through switching from one language to another and then back, but this is both more practical and complete, full with nice hyperlinks and associations between words and units!
A big thank you here (and a lingot). :)
Oh! I don't think I'd even noticed the Subculture skill had disappeared from the course! I wonder where that skill went now.
The "Subculture" skill came as a standard skill in the original tree ("Tree 1.0") when the Japanese course released in May 2017.
It was still there as a standard skill in the second version of the tree, which was released in 2019. ("Tree 2.0", which is the version this discussion thread is talking about.)
We no longer have this skill now though. The third version of the tree ("Tree 4.0") doesn't have that skill. All users are now on Tree 4.0 of the Japanese course since this version finished getting released on 7th April 2020.
I don't know if the contents of the "Subculture" skill we had in Tree 1.0 & 2.0 was split up and moved to different skills in the tree, or if the skill is still here somewhere and just has had its name changed, or if the skill and all of its contents has been deleted completely.
But there is no skill called "Subculture" in this current version of the tree (Tree 4.0). Skills don't get added or removed once a version of the tree is released. So a skill named "Subculture" won't be getting added back randomly on its own. The skills won't change until a new version of the tree like "Tree 5.0" comes along (if they've even started working on a new version yet or even plan to do so).
The reverse tree is a good thing. I find the reverse tree much more challenging than the forward one, because it uses many more kanji instead of hiragana, and it uses many more natural Japanese phrases than the English-> Japanese one. As well as challenging, it is rewarding, for exactly those same reasons. And it is worth experimenting with using the mobile app/mobile browser and web browser versions, to get the level of difficulty that you need for your own studies - e.g. if you want to practice writing Japanese with your keyboard, then the PC browser version is super for that.
The reverse tree is English for Japanese speakers. It will change the entire interface to Japanese, but you can always change it back. To access it, you have to add the course. On the web, go to Add new course > I speak: Japanese. On the Android app (and this is probably similar on iOS), hit the + sign under courses to add a new one > more > (American flag) 日本語から英語を学ぶ. It's a completely different experience, so you'll learn different things from each tree. The main drawback for Japanese learners is that there is no Japanese audio, as it's designed to teach English. But there is a lot of natural language and kanji used. I've gone through it a little and really like it, but I'm super excited for tree 2.0, especially as I think hearing the audio is crucial.
Thank you so much for all the hard work, and for this clear explanation of what the new material will look like and rough timeline. It is so exciting that Tree 2.0 will be out this year. And its quite motivating too, for us learners! Knowing that 2.0 is on its way, I am resolved to study some more before it comes out, and e.g. try to go up one level on Tree 1.0. Thank you for all the hard work developing this great resource!
へー！I just noticed there will be 2000 words, 950 kanji and 75 skills. That’s 200 words, 150 kanji and (if I remember correctly) 5 more skills than what was originally planned for this update and if it wasn’t a huge update back then already, just wow. すごい！Thank you so much for creating this course! I’m so excited and happy to be able to practice so much more Japanese soon.
Fantastic! As someone who had already learnt N5 Japanese, and was working on N3, I was using Duolingo mostly to go over things. To refresh my knowledge and such, but with this news, I'm hoping that I'll be able to refresh my knowledge on a wider variety of information and continue to practice my grammar.
Thanks for your hard work, it's very appreciated!
The second half of the tree begins introducing plain form in default sentences. However, plain form should already be acceptable for write-in sentences of your own creation (not using the multiple choice cards). If you find a question that doesn't accept a plain form answer, please report it!
Will there be more streamlined learning in the future?
What I mean is for the new words not to be thrust at the learner every new skill, but rather through levels we steadily learn the same words used in different situations alongside the new words.
You can only assume so much when a new word is shoved into your face.
Wow, this looks awesome! A quick question, though, because I really want to be able to participate in this, as I'm slowly nearing completion on the current course: what is the metric you're using for deciding who's a part of the 50%? Or will it just be random? Also, thank you for this, this is way more new stuff than I was expecting!
You will (if it goes well) let the old users try the new Japanese tree. So when summer comes, should we change anything in out setting in order to get the new tree or it will just start automatically? (sorry if it is a basic question and if every one just already know how it works)
Looks great. One question though...
The current Japanese course gets really tedious towards the end, with LOOOONG sentences that cause every lesson to take what seems like forever to go through. Will the sentences get shorter, so the lessons will take a more reasonable time.
That was the case in French as it moved to the current version, and I much appreciated it as I went through the course again to earn back my owl. I was able to get a lot more out of it too, and not just because there was more to learn.
When the sentences got too long, it stopped being fun and I lost any motivation to actually try to remember anything.
I just slogged through in suffering to get done with it - and didn't ever want to see anything in French again. That seemed counterproductive to me. After all, the point was to learn and use the language.
I don't intend to be mean when I say this, and I say it as a fellow Duolingo learner and user, not in my capacity as a contributor - but if you are having trouble with longer sentences, that would most likely indicate to me that your knowledge level isn't high enough and you should practice some easier skills more thoroughly before trying to tackle the more advanced skills.
The same thing happened to me with the Russian tree, which I recently finished. Some of the skills late in the tree have long, difficult sentences (which I had a very hard time translating). I would get frustrated and it would be difficult to motivate myself to continue learning. However, I've found that when that happens, going back to level up easier skills will both keep me practicing the language and help me regain my confidence in my ability in the language. Then, I'd go back to higher level skills, and the ones that had once been very difficult to me began to seem easier because my foundation was better. That's personally what I would recommend to you, because I think a lot of people would be unhappy if we only taught short, simple sentences.
As to long sentences generally: since the Tree 2.0 will be adding a lot more kanji, it should be easier to read the long sentences, since they will no longer contain ridiculously long strings of hiragana. I feel everyone's pain on that, having played so many generations of Pokemon games that only used hiragana until they finally made kanji an option a few years back. Reading long strings of hiragana is frustrating!!
Hi TJLast, you can not sign up for the beta. It will be only available for new users, user accounts that are registered after the beta begins sometime next month. Then, 50% of the existing users will get the beta in an A/B test sometime during the spring. Sometime in the summer, the beta/new course will be rolled out to the rest of the duolingo users.
That said, I’m definitely making an alternative account to practice with the beta from the get go. So it’s possible to get the beta that way.
if i had any recommendations for the future tree i'd say that there should be put more of a focus on kanji instead of 50% of time being hiragana and 50% being kanji, and there being a subsection on the tree focusing on kanji radicals just to help the process of learning kanji and learning how they're related
If we've never started this course on Duolingo, then if we were to start this course for the first time, would we then be classed as a brand new user of this course?
I originally only made this testmoogle account to be on the safe side during the alpha phase of this course, since I didn't own any iOS devices to be an official alpha tester and was instead doing the course on web. :P
My main account is three or four years old. I've only used it for the reverse tree (which was in beta when I joined Duolingo) and have never started this course on it. March sounds like a great time to finally swap back over to my main account, if this would work. ^_^
Aww. I had a feeling my idea would be flawed. XD
I guess it's more likely it will be the way you've described. I guess when the A/B test comes into being, all existing users will probably be put into the unlucky A/B group in that very moment, while all new accounts after this date will begin in the good A/B group.
I was hoping, when the A/B test comes into being, it would at that time check the user's profile for the absence/presence of the Japanese course and set the A/B group accordingly. In this scenario, newly created accounts would always end up in the good A/B group because they won't have started any courses at the point the account is created. Therefore, this should function correctly too. But I guess the former, simpler way is much more likely to be how it will work.
I guess there's nothing to lose if I do try starting the course on my main account in March. If I don't try, I'd still have to wait just as long anyway. It will be interesting to see what happens at least.
Thanks ehartz for giving your answer to this. ^^
Quote: If we've never started this course on Duolingo, then if we were to start this course for the first time, would we then be classed as a brand new user of this course?
I can confirm this as positive for French tree3 in 2018.
I never had added it, but was on Duolingo longer for Portuguese and English courses, and when I added EN->FR as NEW course to my current profile, I was able to participate in the contributor tree3 A/B tree test.
Many other users stayed on the stable French tree2.
Quote: My main account is three or four years old. I've only used it for the reverse tree (which was in beta when I joined Duolingo) and have never started this course on it. March sounds like a great time to finally swap back over to my main account, if this would work
So, yes, your chances are IMHO 50:50 for your main account if you do not do it too early :-)
Try this first when the new JP 2.0 tree is rolled out:
You can use the private browsing feature (no activity tracking) and catch the NEW A/B 2.0 tree when it is rolled out.
Once you got it as a new user on the web portal (no cookie present, Duolingo does not know your browser session yet) you start the first lesson or placement test and after that checked if it is the right one tree you can register a NEW user account on Duolingo to continue to work on it.
I described the process in more detail in the French forum: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29069435$comment_id=29810695
Once you have been successful in catching the JP 2.0 A/B tree in a new "browser session" window with no activity tracking (you might have to increase the hardening level) and you are 100% sure that it is rolled out and NEW users are catching it, you can try your luck on your main account; but not before!
As mentioned in other comments (and to my knowledge, as well), the new tree will likely be assigned randomly at first, so I don't believe there will be a way to volunteer for it. The contributors don't have any control over that. In the meantime, you might be a good candidate for the reverse tree. :)
It won't affect the existing tree or our experience as users in any way. You'll be able to use the current tree with no restrictions. The only time you will notice any change (barring any unrelated A/B testing that Duolingo does) should be when the new course rolls out to us existing users. (When it happened for Spanish, it was just there one day.) So you can continue to use the current tree without any issues. :)
Thank you for all the work that you are putting into this. As a recent Duolingo user that had already assiduously learnt some 150 kanji beforehand (which helped me a lot!), I noticed that the tree seemed somewhat short compared to others (at least the German one); I am glad that so many new kanji will be introduced, as this is a nice way to encounter them with some context. :)
I have one question, yet: what will happen to current Japanese trees if the new one gets generalised to everyone? I mean, will there be some general reset, or will we retain our current progress? I do not know how compatible the present version of the various units is with what may come.
Since I have very recently been presented with the new tree, I will answer for those interested: my progress has been mainly retained, except for the last two units and several words of vocabulary; my progress in previous units seems to have been rescaled according to the new content (and thus, I have been formally “downgraded” in levels). I guess the blue dot under certain past units indicates new content I now have to validate, although I am not absolutely sure. As a general opinion: I am happy that you managed not to reset everything; the situation seems quite reasonable. :)
Quote: is it possible for people who want to beta test choose to have the new tree?
You cannot directly opt-in to an A/B test.
I myself am hoping to get access to the tree ASAP.
You can catch new A/B trees with this method:
After you are on the "right" tree version, you just need to have to create a new user account so you can continue working on that tree.
"Tree 1.0" = Original released version of the Japanese course. It had 40 skills. It was released in 2017.
"Tree 3.0" = Second released version of the Japanese course. It had 92 skills. It was released in 2019. (It's usually always called "Tree 2.0" instead.)
"Tree 4.0" = The third released version of the course. It has 131 skills. It was released in 2020, a few months ago. Tree 4.0 is the current version of the Japanese course. Everyone now has this version. It is basically around N3 level. ^^
The "Tree 2.0" version mentioned in this discussion, which said it would have 75 skills, was kind of never released. We went straight from the 40 skill original tree to the 92 skill 3.0 tree. But we're now on 131 skill 4.0 tree anyway. This discussion thread is pretty old and very out-of-date now.