https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077

My first czech poem!

So since Valentine's Day is coming, I wanted to write a poem, now ofcourse I did it in german, my native tongue, but I thought I might as well try to "translate" it into czech.

german:

Röslein, Röslein, wachse!
Wachse wunderschön!
Und wenn du mir gewachsen, Schönheit,
Gib dich der Meinen hin!

now my literal translation:

Růžička, růžička, rosť!
(Vy)rosť překrásně!
Až jsi mi vyrostla, kráso,
Oddávej se mojí!

Unfortunately, I didn't like the literal translation as I felt the "flow" was lost, which probably happens all the time translating poetry, so here is my attempt at an improved version:

Růže, růže, rosť!
Vyrosť v krásnou květinu!
Až jsi mi vyrostla, krásná,
dej se miláčkovi mému!

Now I do have some questions.

  1. I found Syn mi vyrostl v pěkného chlapa. on the german wikipedia but I didn't know what to ask google in order to make sure that 'vyrůst v krásnou květinu' would be right (accusative vs genitive), so is it?

  2. I hope the change from kráso to krásná is possible as I would prefer ending that line with a long 'a' rather than an 'o'

  3. I came across miláček when I watched 'Svatební cesta do Jiljí' and I don't think that he ever called her miláčku only the other way around, so it may be exclusively male, however I came across chudák refering to a woman while reading czech fairy tales for A2, so I wondered if miláček can also be used for women?

    Dávala jí těžkou a špinavou práci a říkala jí Popelka, protože chudák dívka byla často špinavá od popela

  4. I am not sure about the 4th line, I tried to find multiple translations which would fit the "flow", but to me they feel equally right and wrong probably because they aren't like any other czech sentences I have come across so far. I would prefer the 1st version as it's length would fit the 1st line better, but I don't know if it conveys what I want it to.

3rd version after the help of wedle and .Luxia. (Thanks alot!)

Růže, růže, rosť!
Vyrosť v krásnou květinu!
Až mi vyrosteš, krásná,
dej se milé mojí!

4th version after the feedback from svrsheque and VladFu

Růže, růže, růstej!
V krásnou květinu vyrůstej!
Až mi vyrosteš krásně,
dej se mé milé!

I would gladly appreciate any feedback: Do you like it? Did I make a mistake? Do you have any suggestions for improvements? Thank you in advance!

Edit: formatting without a preview. ugh!
Edit2: added 3rd version
Edit3: added 4th version

2 weeks ago

22 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/svrsheque

a few thoughts. "rosť" is technically correct, but that's the best i can say about that word. the imperfective imperative would sound less weird and allow for better flow and even some rhyming on reshuffled words later on.

Vyrůstej, růžičko, vyrůstej,
v krásný kvítek spěj.
Až mi krásně vyrosteš,
mé milé se dej.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VladaFu
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I had to check the grammar handbook to be sure it is correct. We simply do not use "rosť" or "vyrosť".

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/widle
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My friend did use it a few times. (Well, she actually said "nerosť", because she didn't want me to grow taller than her. I didn't.) So I might be biased, but I'd say it exists, though it's pretty unusual.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VladaFu
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And poetry is the right place for unusual forms. Still makes less confusion than hrdobci or similar.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/widle
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Yep.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077
  1. Isn't "rosť" imperfective imperative? Is "(vy)rosť" the same as "(vy)růstej"? Or is there any difference?
  2. The way I understand "růst/vyrůst" is, that the first means "growing" and the later means "growing up" and then I'd like the transition from "růst" to "vyrůst" (also I kinda like the r-alliteration together with růže and rosť sounding more similar), however, if it sounds weird, it'd be unfortunate.
  3. Now that I see it, I prefer "mé" over "mojí", thanks for that!
    Thank you very much for your feedback and poem!

Edit: changed (vy)růsť to (vy)rosť

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/svrsheque

yes, i should have said "another" imperfective imperative. "růst" is imperfective. but its imperative fell into disuse by the natives. i suspect we just do not like the way it sounds. "vyrosť" is an imperative form of the perfective "vyrůst", and what i said about "rosť" applies to that one as well.

sometimes the perfectivizing prefix is nearly devoid of a meaning shift, except that it forces all types of shifts in the english tenses needed to translate it. i submit the růst/vyrůst pair is much more similar to prát/vyprat (no shift) than nést/vynést (significant shift).

imo, "vyrosť' is not an improvement on "rosť" also because we are asking the flower for the lengthy process of growing, not really for the result by a deadline or such.

the transition you were seeking is present in the shift from the imperfective "vyrůstej" and "spěj" to the future tense of the perfective "vyrosteš".

you seem invested in using "rosť" despite what its removal could allow you to do with the rhyming, as my feeble attempt indicated. that is fine, you are the author, and i am not the recipient of your rose ;-)

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/widle
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Nice!

  1. "Vyrůst v krásnou květinu" is correct indeed. This construction sounds a bit dated, you wouldn't hear it in everyday speech, but it fits in a poem very well.

  2. Using "krásná" here sounds fine to me.

  3. "Miláček", being grammatically male, tends to feel male in meaning too, although in some cases it can refer to females too, similarly to your example with "chudák". Here, using "milá" would sound better (don't be discouraged that "milá" is primarily an adjective, it can be used as a noun too).

  4. The first version of the fourth line doesn't work, "oddat se" is only used in a few context/meanings and I don't think it fits here. The second version is okay.

Also, "až jsi mi vyrostla" is not the correct use of tenses. We're talking about the future here, you need to use the future tense after "až": "až mi vyrosteš".

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077

děkuji moc, widle a Luxio, rozumím všechno, ale budu psát nadále anglicky, protože je lehčí!

  1. & 2. I feel like most poems move away from everyday speech in order to achieve some sound, rhyme or something else, so it's perfect.

  2. Good to know, I've already changed krása to krásná, so milá is no problem, I just didn't think of it, thanks!

  3. I found very little information about 'oddat (se)', so I kinda expected, that it wouldn't work.

  4. Now thanks for pointing out the 3rd line. It wasn't even a correct translation of the german, where I used an adverbial past participle like 'it is/will be a grown (rose)' and left out the auxiliary verb, as it is easily understood without and would only make the 3rd line too long.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/.Luxia.
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Pěkný překlad básně, i když bych v třetím verši použila budoucí čas - namísto ,, až jsi mi vyrostla " se více hodí ,, až mi vyrosteš" , protože ve čtvrtém verši si použil budoucí čas.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/svrsheque

an idea for you. would you like to make a series of posts dedicated to learning your native slovak? if you did so under the cz from en forum, we could moderate it for you. on the other hand, you might get better visibility in the main english forum.

no pressure.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/.Luxia.
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It is a good idea, but teaching a language with posts doesn't seem very promising for me. It would be quite hard for people to learn pronouncing without hearing the sounds of language. Also, I am afraid that I won't have enough time for doing this.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077

added 3rd version

Růže, růže, rosť!
Vyrosť v krásnou květinu!
Až mi vyrosteš, krásná,
dej se milé mojí!

Thank you very much widle and .Luxia.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SuperLearner007
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Christoph, du bist besser gewroden. Impressive, really.

I don't know why but I'm pretty glad you got that far.

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077

Danke! Dranbleiben ist alles! Thanks! Persistency is key! It's still a long way to go.

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077

added 4th version:

Růže, růže, růstej!
V krásnou květinu vyrůstej!
Až mi vyrosteš krásně,
dej se mé milé!

Now that the first line has one more vowel I kinda want one more for the last one too, so would the following work?

podej se mé milé!

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/nueby
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You already have one native-rhymed version available, so until we hear you express what displeases you about it, it could be hard to improve on it for you. I see you are vowel-counting, so I can tweak the rhythm a bit.

First let's deal with the grammar here:

  • "Růstej" does not work because it is the imperative of the frequentative verb "růstat", which roughly corresponds to "often grow" in the present and "used to grow" in the past. Not what we should be looking for from the once-and-out bloom.
  • If you must double up on the "rose", make it "Růže, růže, vyrůstej." No reason to be a slave to the word-initial letters. With "vyrůstej" you gain a real Czech word and still keep the triple "rů" alliteration. (The additional syllable seems a non-issue to me.)
  • To avoid the "absolute" rhyme ([vy]růstej-vyrůstej) and to set up the rhythm for the last line (below), you might be hard pressed to improve on the already suggested "v krásný kvítek (v krásné kvítko) spěj" for the second line. I suspect what is going on is that you count syllables and the natives match up stressed chunks. (Clearly I do not even play a poet on TV.)
  • Až mi vyrosteš krásně: suspect word order, too much emphasis on the adverb, without any rhyme to show for it. Swap the last two words to produce the entirely idiomatic and several times suggested "Až mi krásně vyrosteš".
  • Dej se mé milé: What do you find wrong with "Mé milé se dej"? The latter ordering is perfectly fine in a poem, especially that it actually leads to the only rhyme here and makes the last line wrap the whole thing up rather neatly.

And no, the extra syllable would seem counter-productive to me.

2 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077

There is nothing wrong with the version given, but by writing it on my own I am able to do mistakes, from which I hopefully can learn something and maybe improve my understanding of the czech language overall. Also by asking for feedback I learned about things that may be technically correct but not used, which is/was very interisting. I am simply enjoying myself engaging with czech in another way. Ideally I would find my own version that'd be simply error-free, even if it would contain odd things like rosť.

to the grammar:
1. So rosť would be correct but 'weird' since it's rarely used and růstej doesn't work because it has a different meaning from what I'd need. However since you didn't say the same about vyrůstej, I wonder if the frequentative form of a perfective verb is simply an imperfective verb, whereas the frequentative form of an imperfective verb actually gives an frequentative verb.
2. the double up isn't neccessary but when I was saying the suggested poem to myself I naturally made a pause after růžičko which I didn't like compared to my version where I didn't. Maybe I did this pause because I am not stressing the words correctly.
3. It doesn't have to rhyme at all, I like free verse poems. I wrote it that way because i kinda liked the růstej, vyrůstej part, but when růstej doesn't work, I will write it differently. Also I am not realy counting syllables and I don't see the need for another syllable either, but when I said it to myself I thought it may be better if the last line would be a little bit longer, so I looked for a way to do that and compare them (and immediately wrote that I want another syllable, which I clearly shouldn't have, sorry!).
4. I only changed the word order here because it would kinda rhyme with milé similar to the german original of "wunderschön" with "hin" which both wouldn't be clean rhymes.
5. From how I understand czech word order, more important stuff comes last, so I thought milé or mé should be at the end.

Honestly, I didn't even think about where you would stress the words in czech. It'd sound weird quickly when I'd stress the words 'wrongly' in german and I think the stress is fixed for every word (atleast I tried to find ones and could only come up with ones, where a change in stress changes also the meaning). Is the same true for czech or do you stress words differently? Maybe depending on where they are in a sentence or something like that? Can a word change it's meaning depending on where it is stressed?

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/nueby
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Having fun is what matters, no issues there...

The similarity of forms between how we went from RŮST to RŮSTAT just happens to match the imperfectivization from VYRŮST to VYRŮSTAT, but VYRŮSTAT is not a frequentative and I am not objecting to it whatsoever here.

I would not consider KRÁSNĚ a MILÉ as a rhyme at all, while VYRŮSTEJ or SPĚJ and DEJ would be clean. But having given up on actual rhyming here, I think you can do whatever strikes your fancy.

Mostly the stresses fall on the first syllable of each Czech word, but there are exceptions like prepositions and some short words that do not get stress. I do not have the time to do it justice now, though..

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Yves--
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Hi Christoph. It's truly remarkable that on your very first poem you'd manage to hit an "air pocket" in Czech like the imperative of růst. After seeing your post this afternoon, I tried it out on a couple of acquaintances. There was some head scratching, then the best they could do was "Koukej růst!" :-)

Fortunately, the local linguists here have had more valuable input. As regards rosť!, I did manage to find a poetic precedent, in a 1909 poem called Strom života by the great Jaroslav Vrchlický, where at the end he writes:

Ó, šťastný strome, rosť k jásotu všem!

So it remains there as a high lyrical, archaic option. Otherwise, there's no argument that vyrůstej is the mot juste, and Svršeque's version is indeed excellent in many respects.

Personally, I feel a sense of urgency, impatience and gentle chiding in that opening line

Röslein, Röslein, wachse!

so if we're tinkering around, I might consider

Růže, růžičko, vyrůstej!

where the repetition, rhythm and diminution create a sort of pleading effect (to my ear)

And possibly I would consider returning the original conjunctive "und" in the 3rd line

A až mi krásně vyrosteš

Otherwise, Svršeque has set the bar high there, and I think a translation would have to stray further from the original to do any different.

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChristophS49077

I find it quite amazing how 'rosť' turned out to be such a gem. When I started looking into czech imperatives, I was reading 'O veliké řepě' from the book 'Pohádky' by Lída Holá (, which is for level A2). I wrote down every word, I didn't know at that time, made a flashcard in Anki and looked up it's conjugation on http://prirucka.ujc.cas.cz/. Back then the only imperatives, that I came across, ended in '-ej' (apart from 'jdi' and 'jeď', which I learned pretty early to express and understand directions), vyrosť and subsequently rosť were the first imperatives, I have seen, which didn't follow the -ej pattern, so I marked them as irregularities (I marked everything, that didn't fit into a pattern, I knew. In fact I still do, the last thing I added was: "Bez toho životA", when reading your reply). Now, about a year later, to find out it's so unusual is awesome.

Poems are always up for interpretation. I myself imagine a man, kneeing down to his rose bed, holding a young, barely-any-red-showing rose and daydreaming about his one and only.
Maybe the czech version feels more urgent, I don't know, but both use the imperative at the same places, so I assume(d), that the degree of urgency is up to the reader, as it is in my german original.

'A až..' felt kinda weird to me, but the same is true for 'to zoo' or 'to euro',... , where the vowels are pronounced seperately, something I am still getting used to hearing/saying, so I didn't write it because I didn't know how it would feel for a Czech.

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/K4Po6

wow, thats beautiful

1 week ago
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