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"You run and jump."

Translation:bIqet 'ej bISup.

February 17, 2019

13 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gadsden_1

If we're going to be consistently pedantic, this must be translated bIqet bISup je, as opposed to the "correct" translation which really means 'you run and you jump', not 'you run and jump'. At least that's what it has been thus far.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

The conjunction je is used to combine a list of nouns and appears at the end of the list: torgh mara HoD je "Torg, Mara, and the captain."

In this sentence we are combining two sentences into one bigger sentence. bIqet is a complete sentence and bISup is a complete sentence. These are not nouns, so you cannot use a noun conjunction. Instead you have to use the sentence conjunction 'ej and it gets places between the sentences, rather than after them. Thus you get the "correct" translation given above.

Since the pronouns are not generally used in Klingon, there is no difference when translation "You run and you jump" verses "you run and jump". Either way, you are connecting two sentences (or you can think of it as connecting two verbs, since the verb is the core of the sentence). You could add the pronoun if you wanted and then it becomes more obvious: bIqet SoH 'ej bISup SoH versus bIqet SoH 'ej bISup. But since the required prefix already tells us who is doing it, we don't need either SoH and the more typical way to translate both English sentences is just as bIqet 'ej bISup.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

He's right about being pedantic, though. The course inconsistently allows less-than-literal translations without explanation.

Gadsden, here's where the course creators get their justification:

bISoptaH qoj bItlhutlhtaH You are eating and/or you are drinking.
bISoptaH pagh bItlhutlhtaH You are either eating or else you are drinking.

When the subject of both of the joined sentences is the same, the English translation may be reduced to a less choppy form, but Klingon does not allow this shortening. The pronominal prefix must be used with both verbs. Thus, the final two sentences above may be translated You are eating and/or drinking; You are either eating or drinking.(TKD)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

David, I'm a little confused by your response on this exercise. What other Klingon translations do you think we should be allowing given the English sentence above?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

Your allowed translations for this sentence are fine. Gadsden has noticed other sentences where the allowed translations are less flexible than these and is complaining that you are not "consistently pedantic" in requiring a certain level of literal translation.

For instance, if there were a sentence like bIjatlhHa'chugh qaHoH If you say the wrong thing, I will kill you, I bet that the course would not allow I will kill you if you say the wrong thing, even though the meaning is the same, and even though TKD gives this example as bIjatlhHa'chugh qaHoH or qaHoH bIjatlhHa'chugh If you say the wrong thing, I will kill you (but never mentions I will kill you if you say the wrong thing).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Ah. I see. Yes, we are mostly consistent in our own rules for how pedantic to be on various structures, but that can seem to be somewhat inconsistent through the whole course because we have decided to be more pedantic on some structures and less pedantic on others. For the most part we have been consistent with Duolingo's suggestions which, for instance, recommend not allowing elements to be switched in order unless grammatically required. But I'm glad we agree that this exercise is not an example of that type of thing.


[deactivated user]

    Is there no way I can use Su- and bI- in the same phrase? I can't say "Suqet 'ej bISup" or "bIqet 'ej SuSup"?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

    I guess if you were in front of a whole group, but pointing at one particular person, they would understand the Su- to apply to all of them and the bI- to apply to just the one you are pointing at. The Klingon sentence you are proposing is a grammatical sentence and could make sense in some contexts. But the fact that "you" is only said once in the English sentence clearly indicates that the same "you" is meant to both "run" and "jump". It doesn't really work for the Klingon translation to change who it means by "you" on the two verbs.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

    In the English You run and jump, there is but a single subject, you. When you say this sentence, you can only mean either you (singular) or you (plural), but not both at the same time. You run and jump cannot be interpreted as You (singular) run and you (plural) jump or You (plural) run and you (singular) jump. It must be interpreted as either You (singular) run and you (singular) jump or You (plural) run and you (plural) jump.

    Therefore, the Klingon, which distinguishes between you (singular) and you (plural), must include the same subject on each of its verbs. This is indicated by the prefixes, which here must be the same.

    But if you weren't translating a particular English sentence, you certainly could say bIqet 'ej SuSup You (singular) run and you (plural) jump, and you could say Suqet 'ej bISup You (plural) run and you (singular) jump. No problem with that at all.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

    But if you weren't translating a particular English sentence, you certainly could say bIqet 'ej SuSup You (singular) run and you (plural) jump, and you could say Suqet 'ej bISup You (plural) run and you (singular) jump. No problem with that at all.

    How would the listener(s) know who is being spoken to?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

    Maybe one person stepped forward from the crowd to ask for instructions. Suqet 'ej bISup. You're addressing this one person as a member of the group to say that all of them will be running, but this one person will be jumping.

    You can speak to one person and discuss what their group will do in the second person.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

    Apparently, second-person clusivity (you and you and you versus you and them) is very controversial in natural languages, and widely regarded as nonexistent.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clusivity#Second-person_clusivity

    Klingon certainly doesn't seem to exhibit it, meaning the second person could mean either multiple yous or you and them.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

    Is there no way I can use Su- and bI- in the same phrase? I can't say "Suqet 'ej bISup" or "bIqet 'ej SuSup"?

    That would be changing horses in mid-stream.

    Are you talking to one person? Or are you talking to several people at once?

    Your sentences make it sound as if you can't decide. I imagine the listener(s) will find it confusing as well.

    If you do want to change horses, make it clearer: mara, bIqet. torgh toral je, SuSup. "Mara, you [one person] run. Torg and Toral, you [several people] jump."

    Note that the English sentence here has "You run and jump", implying that there is only one "you", who is the subject of both verbs. That "you" is either singular or plural, but not both at once or both at different times. But even "You run and you jump" with two explicit "you"s would generally refer to the same one each time -- like "They run and they jump", where you would expect both "they"s to refer to the same group unless you explicitly say that you're switching what "they" refers to.

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