Test-Out XP Cap
Just now I tested out of a Portuguese lesson that should have been worth 450 XP, and instead I was rewarded with 20 XP. I tried it again on another lesson and the same thing happened, 20 XP.
Is anyone aware of some kind of new daily experience cap, or is it a bug? I will move the thread to troubleshooting if it's determined to be the latter.
[Edit: It's an update, not a bug, and it only relates to test-out XP. Thread renamed to reflect answered question.]
Greetings, I just got effected by this new XP cap today as well... I can't say I'm fond of it either. If testing out for XP was a causing problems on Android they should have solely implemented this new cap there especially since we don't have leagues on the Website anyway... Edit: It seems to me that not many people (if anyone) like or are in favour of this update. I'm not angry, I just think that maybe the higher authorities should get a clue? Don't fix something that isn't broken.
That's a good point. Considering the fact that PC users don't have as much to earn XP for, I don't know why Duolingo would remove it from PC users unless they're planning to implement leaderboards to PC users as well as mobile.
Duolingo announced recently that they're planning to bring leagues to web browser, and iOS app.
Okay.... I figured this.... so it's ALL ABOUT $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.... remember the good old days when you could practice a language for FREE and didn't even have ANY ADS to deal with. Gone... This has just become another cash cow!
@OnkelD, I do remember those days and they were wonderful. The Duolingo staff's inconsistency is extremely frustrating. The staff reacts to the outcry of a few Android users feeling cheated that people on the leader board were passing them by testing out of lessons, but refuse to do anything as countless people voice complaint over this latest update; thus proving the Duolingo staff's priorities to be skewed. I, like you believe they're only in it for the money. It is very saddening to see this once amazing website's priorities slump from free language education for all to something as ignoble as the bottom line. They no longer seem to care much for their users but are more interested in ways to make money. In protest I enabled an ad blocker in hopes of speaking to Duolingo's higher ups in a way they understand. One person doing this will not make a difference, but perhaps if others begin to do the same our voices will be heard.
But talking about $$$$ - it was just the possibility of unlimited tests which was one of the features which made me buy a one-year duolingo plus membership about a month a go. Now they have removed this feature without even asking the people who have paid bucks for it. This is why I feel cheated - I am going to cancel the plus membership and I will try to get a refund for the rest.
That was their entire marketing schtick! No subscriptions: blown to heck with Plus; No ads: gone because they want people to use Plus; No hidden fees: I guess that one still stands?
the page at that link says:
You have to do a lesson on Android to get put into an initial group, but after that your XP from any platform should count. XP from all lessons count, as well as from Stories and attending Events.
That is certainly not the case. My XP on Web is very different from my XP on Android.
It is the case. I do both for weeks now. And the XP are always in sync.
But Test out for 20 XP!!! Who's stupid idea was that???
I've read about the leagues, and it doesn't sound like a good idea to me, to put it mildly. Now I see where frustrated users like D3XT3RY0NuT are coming from. I think the healthy thing to do is to focus on one's own language learning agenda rather than keep comparing points, lingots, streaks and other parameters of one's account with other users. I'll definitely disable my social profile, if this innovation is ever extended to desktop users.
I use both versions (Web at home, Android on the train to work). XPs you earn on the Web count for the leaderbord on Android, too. That's probably the reason why they are capping it on both platforms.
Then THAT's THEIR PROBLEM, and THEY should address it. A LOT of us STRICTLY use it as a teaching/ learning tool on a PC and NOTHING more... could care LESS about any silly leaderboards! This isn't Lingot-Run to me, I took it seriously..... till now!
I use both website and Android, and I would rather opt out of the leagues completely and get full XP for tests.
Sorry, You can't, I don't use leaderboards and I don't get the full XP for tests anymore
same here. Frustrating, I really liked getting those xp for testing out!
Such a disappointment... Getting more and more XPs was really motivational for me. Why on Earth it bothered Duolingo??? After Memrise, it was too much :'(
My understanding: People were bagging easy XP by testing out in languages they knew, deleting the course, and testing out again, over and over, to leapfrog to high positions in the Android leagues. This was seen as demotivating to everyone else in the leagues. So Duolingo changed the XP that can be earned by testing out. Now the leagues should more accurately represent effort.
it's not more accurate tho. 20 xp for testing out is squat. if you know your stuff well enough to be able to bypass entire levels then you should get more than the equivalent xp of two lessons worth. crap new feature.
I have never used Android leagues, so it means that I'm just a poor victim huh :( Btw I got to high levels in Ukrainian and Russian mostly by testing out. Because I find it boring to do lessons one by one, since there's little to learn (I already speak Russian well, and a bit of Ukrainian). But as any other Duo lover I also want to have a number of level 25s and golden trees.
You can still have golden trees, but now you will have to watch a LOT more advertisements to reach level 25.
I use adblock for most sites, but I like DL, and the ads aren't too obtrusive, so I've turned it off here; but maybe it's time to turn adblock back on.
Duolingo blocks ad blockers and gives you an add to pay for plus instead.
BINGO!!!!!!!!! And THAT is the RUB! ... they'll never admit it... but THEREIN lay the REAL issue!
It's going to backfire though. The amount of time I spend on Duolingo per day is about to take a nose dive -- honestly level 5 of EVERY exercise on the Spanish tree is so mind-numbingly repetitive that I've been testing out just to avoid having to bash out a hundred repetitions of the same very, very basic sentence to complete the level. Now I'm going back to doing one exercise a day to maintain my streak... until I decide I don't give a flying pair of owl droppings about the streak anyway. Well done, duo.
EXACTLY... So let's PUNISH the good with the BAD... because they probably invest more MONEY in pushing that app. Duo used to be a really great site where you could actually learn a language... now it's becoming a cash cow.
Hmm, can't see why more obvious solutions couldn't be applied. Such as participating only once, not after a restart, the second way through the tree on the same profile could be without points.
I was looking forward to the leagues (when they come to my platform), but I am not any longer. I'd be ok with separate leagues for testing out learners (I mean the normal testing out, not restarts to get easy points), that would be great.
But this is just punishing all the learners using more than Duolingo. It is just like school, people sticking out are pushed to conform. That is weird on a site like Duolingo.
Or how about just applying it to people who are taking part in the leagues, if they must? It's certainly not beyond the capability of technology to apply an XP cap to users if and only if they choose to be part of a league.
I've never used Android, and I don't even know how these leagues work in any detail; it might well be fair enough to have specific rules for competitions, but they shouldn't be foisted on everyone else.
Whereas it could be argued that some of the XP rewards for testing-out were a bit over-powered, 20XP for everything is derisory.
Gamified learning is all very well in principle, but if DL is going to keep moving the goalposts, then no-one is going to want to play.
Yes, that is another solution. Opt in leaderboards, and the choice could change your exp getting.
Right now, they may be "helping" some of the beginners, who take a leaderboard too seriously. But they are removing all the gamification away from everyone a bit above the beginner level trying to stick to Duolingo till level 25 for a bit of further practice and to get the "yes, I've completed it!" feeling. That has always been the only purpose of level 25, and now it is being removed.
reply to Judit294350's post (as I cannot reply directly to the post anymore): You are missing the point the whole time. Duolingo's value is in combination of the content and the gamification. Without the gamification, there are better tools and no point in coming here. The gamification is useful even for review, especially during times, when intrinsic motivation is lower due to other factors.
Duolingo's levels and such stuff have been good for that purpose. As you could notice in this thread, many people were actually profiting from being allowed to test out or not depending on their needs AND having the extrinsic motivation. That was the strength of Duolingo. Without the gamification, it is just another mediocre tool that this type of learners can't profit from that much.
I have proven my studying abilities more than enough outside of Duolingo, that is not the question here. And so have surely others in this thread. So, being condescending to people is inappropriate. It is well possible that many of the people you are lecturing are have actually achieved more in language learning. You never know ;-)
If you actually read the posts that you reply to, you might notice that people are not trying to get exp for nothing, or avoiding learning (they would have gone to play Candy Crush instead). We are disappointed and discouraged, because the purpose for which Duolingo with the gamification used to serve us is becoming impossible.
The people discouraged by not being able to test out for the full points are not gonna leave langauge learning. We are just gonna leave Duolingo and get used to another bitter message from the digital learning tools developpers that success and freedom in learning are actually not desirable.
We would all do what you suggest, we would go for more advanced digital and gamified tools (during those times in which we need such extrinsic motivation), if only there were any. But nope, vast majority of the services is oriented only on the beginners.
According to Judit's logic (I am replying here because there is no reply link under her posts), one ought to get more points for redoing the same tree over and over again, because she says that points ought to be given for time spent on the site rather than for skills mastered.
Wow. Duolingo has never been more like a dumb MMO dev than this--a small group is exploiting a flaw in their design so rather than fix the exploit, they cap everyone and make the "game" harder and grindier for people who are being honest and playing fair. Nice move, Duolingo.
Wasn't these leaderboards their idea? We didn't ask for them.
" the subscription stays active until the next renewal date. They just won't get any additional money from me." That proofs that the stats from your membership are actually more worth than the additional money.
a better solution would have been to subtract all the XP gained from a course when you delete it
I'm pretty sure this is how it works: If you delete a language, all the xp earned in that language goes away too.
If that's the motivation, then if someone is at level 25 in a language, more XPs earned by testing out in that language shouldn't be included in league rankings.
Seems like this change will make it harder to achieve level 25 and will just encourage more people to delete and recreate their trees in order to test out and score easy XPs.
And instead of disabling the ability to reset a course they just decided to screw people over.
The Android leagues??? Who even cares?
Your learning experience is your own. Learning shouldn't be a competition, you work at your own pace and the reward is the knowledge at the end of it.
Duo's gamification of that is a nice motivator to push you through the initial stages of learning, but drawing up league tables and fighting over XP feels like losing sight of the original point.
It is deleted from some measures but I believe it stays on the leaderboard.
It might not be so easy to fix, because XP when earned might just be put into buckets "today, this week, this month, all time." Then when you delete and re-test a tree, Duolingo would have no way to know if these are duplicates of points you previously earned in the same time period. Apart from the "all-time" bucket, Duolingo might have no way to know which bucket(s) to back your XP back out of.
There are many of us who could care LESS about "leaderboards". ahh, but perhaps that's now where the MONEY lay!
How did you obtain this understanding? Did someone from Duolingo say so, or is it a guess?
Bad idea. That would make you stuck with any course you may have accidentally clicked on. But maybe make it so that you can't restart a course for certain time period?
It does take some time to test out of every level of every skill in a language even if one knows it well. If people are willing to waste so much of their time just to be nominally ahead in some competition of points, they are only punishing themselves. After all, it's their lives, and they'll never be able to replace those wasted hours.
What the hell? That may be the most pointless thing I have ever heard of? Gamification is a great tool, but if you only actually care about the game, why not...just go play a game?!?
Answer seems to be $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ -- we're playing "games" now... with leaderboards and all sorts of stuff totally UNrelated to actually trying to learn a language.
I'm reading the above comments. This update is kind of annoying then. I don't think I'll be keeping the app then because I test out when I think that something is way too redundant. Kind of annoying to prepare for a test of something with 36 lessons only to get 20 points.
You can still test out when you're ready to move on, you just get a considerably smaller reward. It's definitely discouraging, though.
It really is, especially since I have my daily goal so high. So if I'm only getting 20 points to test out then I'm going to have to do more lessons than I originally intended. It's not a huge deal obviously, just really annoying and kind of inconvenient. Especially if you're just trying to smash your daily goal when you have a break from work or something.
@brsjernigan, thats the point, you now have to spend more time on duo which means more $$ for them!
Well this sucks. Thanks to this and the 20 Lingot fee that appeared on Android recently Duolingo has gotten rather annoying recently.
Seems they compete with Memrise trying to be the app that annoys its users the most
Exactly what I was thinking. Duo managed to just about make it on par with this move. Now I'm more than demotivated with both systems/apps that I use the most. THANKS SO MUCH!
on mobile you gotta pay gems before attempting to test out of a skill level
A few weeks ago or so Duolingo started "charging" me 20 Lingots to test out of a skill if I tried doing so on Android, so I switched to Desktop.
Welcome to iOS hell :( We have had fees for quite some time, and they are a lot more expensive (they are in gems, not lingots, and the amount of gems does not correspond to the amount of lingots). That is why I mostly use the web.
Agreed with everyone that this is a crap solution to a non-existent problem, but what bothers me even more is that there was NO communication from the Duolingo admins about this. No survey, no A/B testing, etc. You can see from the comments here that most people are opposed to this update, so if they had done diligence before rolling this out they would've realized that it was a terrible update to make. If this is really to get around the issue of people deleting their trees and testing out continuously, then maybe implement something that targets that issue (like not being able to restart a tree if you've already restarted it x times in the past 7 days), don't punish the rest of us for something a minority of people are doing.
At this rate, based on my method of completing the trees, I'm almost certain it's impossible for me to make it to Level 25 in any tree- I do every single lessons from Crown Level 0 to Crown Level 3, and then test out of Level 4 and Level 5 (if I fail, I go back and study and try again). Like, there is absolutely no way I am going to sit through 25-45 lessons of a skill that I already know really well. Testing out is a form of testing your knowledge, you shouldn't be punished for having the knowledge that is taught in the skill.
Then use the "practice" and "timed practice" more so that it challenges you with skills you haven't done in a while and have probably forgotten. Or practice a particular skill more that you know you have trouble with. That way you can still make it to level 25. The japanese tree is already super short compared to others, i don't think doing every single lesson would get me to level 25 even before this cap.
"Practice" is the same individual exercises that one tests out for. So if one knows a skill well enough to test out of it, these exercises aren't a challenge at all. And once one has become fluent in a language, one doesn't forget language skills.
Wow, I hate it! First Duo removes the system of strength bars that we used to have, and now they're limiting the XP gains from testing out... Duolingo team really should get their act together if they want to keep users on the site. Things are becoming a lot more annoying. Bringing "Leagues" to PC is something that no one really wanted. Creating it in the first place was also something that no one wanted! The community should rally to fix Duolingo.
You said it all, duolingo's actions in a timeline are disappointing. I was thinking in all DL decisions from five years up to now......
Agree. Remember Immersion? And the ability to communicate directly with the Mods (to ask questions about the language, to clarify confusion about usage, etc.)?
Making testing out "paid" was just enough... I'm literally crying here, feeling as a child whose most beloved teddy is taken away :(
This is continuing to happen, and it honestly makes me want to rate them on the app store and stuff. Just to try to get it through to them that people don't want these things "fixed."
Yeah, I personally don't find the new update as rewarding. I mean, If I don't understand something I'm not gonna test out and I'll repeat every lesson down to the micro-detail. However, if I understand the content of the lesson and I remember it, then It would make sense to get as many points as if I was doing every lesson one by one. I don't really care too much about leaderboards, but I do care about the XP number count being off. After all, the numbers would technically be the same whether the test-outs work out like they used to or you do each and every lesson separately, unless you do more lessons than the 5 levels require you to do.
I didn't like this update, for me it's ridiculous. I'm not undestandig what is the real objective of the ADM's with this thing. I'll claim.
This is not a daily cap, but a test-out cap. As a result of the rampant points-bagging in the Android leagues by people testing out of easy skills over and over, Duolingo has reduced the number of points you can get by testing out. I think it's 50 for each checkpoint test and 20 for each level test.
Thanks for the info! I can see why they've done it, but it doesn't seem to be a good solution. Perhaps creating more leaderboards than one for all types of learners could have served. Or if some people were really testing out over and over (like restarting the tree just to get points, if I understand it right), there could have been a cap on total points gainable per skill and per profile.
I have more active and inactive times on Duolingo. And during the active times, getting tons of points for my reviews of stuff learnt elsewhere has been motivating, that's the whole point of gamification. Not for some android leaderboard (I cannot access that), but for my own progress.
Basically, Duolingo is clearly saying they do not wish to motivate the learners to learn as much as possible, the key is just to make people spend as much time as possible here, no matter what the learner's needs are. That makes Duolingo much less attractive to me.
If Duolingo A/B tested or monitor this going forward it may have a positive impact on a lot of users who were cheating their own learning by gaining XPs for test outs that weren't challenging them and redirect them to newer or harder material so hopefully it will make it more attractive to us all by making the XPs more closely represent the amount of experience we're getting in a language.
But this is not about cheating one's learning. Every Duolingo user is responsible for their own learning and that is fine, the cheating users should not affect my learning. If Duo staff is choosing between restricting all the users (including the responsible ones just progressing faster) or more freedom to all (including to those "abusing" the gamification system), I am all for more freedom. The choice between testing out or not should be about the learning needs, not about exp advantages.
The point of this update is balancing the android leaderboards, not making people learn better. The leaderboards should be a tool that serves a purpose, not a reason to worsen the already established mechanisms and punish the more advanced learners.
Less exp per test out represents more closely time spent on Duolingo. Nothing less and nothing more.
The old amount of exp in the tests out represents more closly the amount of experience in the language, no matter whether we have gained it here or elsewhere.
If you are testing-out of a non-challenging skill, you can only do that to the 5th crown anyway.
So you won't really get that many XPs doing the test-out on the least-challenging skills (their crowns will run out, eventually, and you'll only get 10 XP each time thereafter once they turn gold).
I mean, from the sound of it people are deleting their courses and re-starting; that sounds more like a problem.
Don't get me wrong, when "The" has five crowns and can pull in 700 XP because the 5th crown has 40 lessons, that is also part of this points-inflation problem. But who really needs to go through the 5th crown lesson of "The" forty times?
You're absolutely right, but there is a much simpler solution to this. Just make restarting a tree on the same profile generate no points, or significantly fewer points. There are good reasons to restart a tree once, perhaps twice. But definitely not a dozen times.
Test outs are so easy, well to be fair Indonesian is easy for me so honestly I shouldn't complain.
Why not just ignore the people playing games instead of learning languages?
I think you misunderstand (or maybe just dislike) the concept of gamification. Leaderboards, lingots, XPs, achievements, all-time-rankings, competition in general are all part of this concept. The idea is that you learn better when learning is fun, just like playing a game. When you kill the fun, you also kill the motivation to learn. And this is what's happening right now.
Interesting. It must have gone into effect on the website halfway through my daily session, since it was giving full XP rewards one minute and not the next. Thanks for the answer!
Oh how odd! It was in effect for me already last week (which was the first time I had occasion to try it). Duolingo announced it a few weeks ago.
I guess in that case you could see if it's happening for other test-outs. If it's inconsistent, treat it as a bug.
I did notice that they had instituted it for checkpoint tests last week, but the level tests were still rewarding me until this afternoon. I'll give it some time then run some follow up tests to check for consistency.
I was getting it for checkpoint tests in the iOS app last week, but I can't remember if I was getting it for skill (level) tests.
Yes, that's exactly what happened to me yesterday. The change seems to take effect immediately when they add you to the test group.
Still, DL took what was a motivating factor to learn more by testing out and destroyed it trying to fix some other thing they implemented. Don't break what's working to fix the leagues.
Why not just have the leagues be a different kind of point instead of changing what XP means. This is very frustrating and de-motivating for me.
And instead of making a fix for the cheaters on the Android leagues, let's just punish EVERYONE particularly those of us who simply wanted to LEARN a language! Let's drive them NUTS with boring redundant lessons they can test out of because God forbid some other cheaters advance in what they've made a GAME.... when so many of us consider it a teaching device. SHAME ON DUO... you're not an owl, you're a SHARK!
Exactly. I had no idea what android leagues were until I encountered this thread (I use the desktop version). If there are cheaters, find them and punish them, not people like us who are here to learn and have a good time doing so.
And so instead of removing the ability to reset a course they just decided to screw everyone over.
Uhm... Removing the ability to reset a course would screw me over, because the only way to get typed translations into the target language on the app is to reach crown level 4 for that skill. Once it is gold, there is no way to do that anymore because the practice button yields only simple "pick the word balloons" exercises.
Oh. Maybe they should change THAT then. But also, I think you should be allowed to remove courses you don't want to keep anymore.
Just turn off the word bank. I always do the typing exercises never the tile sliding (which I agree is pointless)
You might want to reset a course for legitimate reasons (I don't know, I never do), but if it's linked to the leagues, don't count xp from the users who have reset the course for a fixed amount of time (a month? 2 months?) for leagues. That should be a fairly easy fix to implement. Don't punish all of us.
So... First they change to the crown system which screws over my previously gold tree (that I maintained daily / weekly to keep it gold). Then they present a new crown system and so I test out of a bunch of skills and get rewarded with exp, okay, fine. Still annoying that I have to re-gold my tree. Now they remove the exp bonus I get for skipping ahead in a lesson I already previously had as gold... Now, whether or not people like to recognize this fact, Duolingo is language learning gamified. Exp is part of the reward system intended to keep you coming back again and again (as are streaks). And over time you increment your skills and improve your mastery of a language. I am really getting sick and tired of them messing with the reward and tree systems.
I'm on a 914 day streak averaging 5-10 new lessons completed per day (some as review) + some review ones. Having the exp system nerfed is a giant buzz kill for me.
My first reaction to this was to look up ways to refund my one year subscription. Stop messing with the app.
I was in the test group when Duo started charging lingots for testing out on an Android device. All of a sudden I had to pay 20 lingots for testing out of a level. People had to pay different amounts of lingots (up to 50). Duo was probably testing where the pain barrier is. Lingots are not really worth anything, but I still was so annoyed, I haven't used DL on a mobile device since then.
I am currently doing the German course as a native speaker. Doing the reverse tree is a good opportunity to practice one's English, to compare the quality of language courses (I liked the Czech course, German is rather low quality). I also want to give something back to the community. Doing the Czech course I often found the comments of native speakers to be more interesting and helpful than the DL lesson they referred to. Now, I'm trying to help learners of the German language by writing comments from a native speaker's perspective. I didn't join a group, though, because I think it is unfair to compete as a native speaker with beginners. I took the XP points as a virtual reward and an encouragement.
This evening I tested out of some levels and got the usual amount of XPs, but suddenly I got only 20 or 30 points for a level. This is far too low in my opinion.
Before it was far too high, I have to admit. But the real problem is that testing out is too easy. There should be more questions, more challenging questions, and less repetition. Testing out of a lesson in the German course I was asked three times in a row to translate the eye into German. In the medical skill four of the twenty questions where versions of "Children why are you bleeding" (type what you hear, translate into English, translate into German, put it together from a list of given words).
Please make testing out harder instead of messing around with lingots or XPs.
Update: I just went back to Android. I get still charged 20 lingots for testing out, but XPs were also capped from 200 to 20, same as on the Web version. Extremely demotivating.
I kind of think you should have do for leagues and XP for your levels, so only 10xp per lesson or test out is added to your league score each week but the full XP is added to your account for the purposes of leveling up.
That way leagues are fairer with 10 XP per lesson or test out or placement test.
And you can get to level 10 in one day by earning 6k XP if you like.
Great idea merkavar!!! I don't think I've heard any other solutions that sound as great as this one!!!
This is probably a part of their move away from xp. I think it is a good idea as people chasing xp are often wasting good learning opportunities by testing out of skills they don't fully know just to get the quick xp. It is tempting to get those lovely numbers to go up quickly. I am relieved to have the temptation removed! Although chasing crowns is quite tempting too...
It started in the middle of a session today for me too, as I was busily testing out of Norwegian skills.
Nope, you are WRONG. I chase my XP, but it doesn't mean that "I'm wasting opportunities". Seeing my tree grow and levels, XPs soar makes me want to practice more.... The new "update" just kills motivation
Unintended consequences all over!
AIUI this XP cap was instituted to reduce the unintended consequence of the Android leagues, where people could abuse the test-out system to rocket up in the Android leagues, which demotivated everyone else.
Now this XP cap change has the unintended consequence of demotivating people who perhaps couldn't care less about the Android leagues, but like seeing XP.
Sigh. They could fix it all by putting the XP back the way they were and getting rid of the stupid leagues and giving clubs back to everyone.
Exactly. Learning with not only Duolingo should be encouraged, not punished. Gaining the exp faster as a result of learning from more sources and testing out can be motivating for the individual learner. Yes, it is weird to mix the testers-out with the real beginners doing just Duolingo exercise by exercise on the leaderboards (which are just on android). But just removing the individual incentive for a part of the learners is not the right way to go.
Exactly. I got started on Duolingo on PC and liked getting a lot XP, testing through languages that i had learned years ago to see what I remembered, sometimes doing lessons if needed and looking up other material. I've been remembering and relearning a lot of stuff. I even paid the subscription for a month to do stuff on my phone. And now this... I don't really feel motivated to be on the app much longer.
It is demotivating to work really hard actually learning languages lesson by lesson and to not get as many xp as if you just took a quick little test using only short term memory or even looking up words you don't know on a different tab. Real effort ought to get the higher reward.
This has been annoying me for years, I don't even have the leaderboards. I have put in years of effort on duolingo but still have to watch people simply chasing xp sail past me in a few months by exploiting the systems inconsistencies.
Of course xp doesn't really matter, my real achievement is understanding all these languages, but I too am motivated by it despite knowing this. I love the visual representation too but it needs to motivate people to learn not just to grind away churning out points. I will still test out when I need more challenging material but I will no longer do it to keep up with the Jones'! This is a good change.
They only "sail past you" because they've devised a system to "cheat" for the leaderboards. Duolingo could have fixed THAT, without taking away all the motivation of people who do not NEED to practice a skill 40 times to move to the next level... it's a matter of individualized instruction!
Has it ever occured to you, that some of the people getting exp from testing out are actually not cheating? That they are probably a bit more advanced than you, thanks to using other sources than Duolingo?
With testing out, Duolingo is a good practice tool for a much wider public. People with uneven skills gained at school, in another course, or people with rusted skills that they had learnt before. These people have put in the efforts, that is not cheating.
If that bothers you, either stop caring about other peoples' exp, or improve your own learning methods.
Or there is the third and less fortunate option. Duolingo will chase these more diverse learners away or force them to conform and pretend we are pure beginners too (but that would require a lot of other improvements of Duolingo, to be worth it).
I am not saying there can't be a few cheaters. It is not pretty obvious there are some people, who restart the tree over and over to get tons of points. But I'd bet that is not the majority of people, who get exp faster than you.
I agree. Yes I chase XP. But if I cant get to level 5 because it's to hard, I just start a few lessons and learn. Now I have to anyway, because it also cost lingots now to test out. Which is actually a good use of lingots. That's a good encouragement for learning and earning lingots. Not capping XP. That is a stupid mistake by Duolingo. That will cost users.
Ah, back to the old system, measuring time instead of time and ability. Annoying but acceptable, and there's definitely a silver lining to it.
Removing XP entirely would be a real shame, since a visual representation of my investment is one of the aspects of Duolingo I find the most rewarding. I wouldn't study less, but I'd probably spend less time on Duo.
Same same for Vietnamese. For an unfinished "final" version of a language one should get free streak freezes thrown in just for enduring the inconsistencies and lack of TIps and Notes for many lessons.
That's true! The amount of time it took me to reach even level 10 in Hungarian...
I calculated I would have hit level 25 ages back if I spent that time on French.
I lean more towards agreeing with you.
Unpopular opinion: I think some people are a little too addicted to internet points and streaks. I find that I do get some motivation from seeing my "level" rise as I learn and practice more, but not so much that I care whether I get 20 points or 400 points for testing out. Do people really test out that much that it's a huge deal? I tested out of major chunks when I first started Duo, but now that I'm at my correct level of learning I rarely test out, preferring the repetition to make the neurological attachments stronger. The functionality to test out is still there to use if someone feels the need. The ability to learn is not hampered.
What I don't feel should have been implemented is paying to test out. That could actually affect the ability to learn if someone is at a level they find to be much too easy but don't have the lingots to test out. That should be abolished. The 20XP does not affect learning. Pay to play does. Just my two cents, which no one should really care too much about as I'm just a lone internet user out there in the world :)
It's kind of amazing how every change makes it worse, isn't it? At least this doesn't actually affect the learning experience for the worse, like many of Duolingo's other recent changes. XP is worthless after all.
I am finding the same thing. I think it is awful, please Duo, if you are seeing this, this is a bunch of votes against it. I'm not leaving, of course, but I am disappointed. The lessons can get repetitive, and now the XP isn't adding up.
At least some official communication on the forum would have been nice? Maybe I missed it...
Sudden changes without warning or time, and nothing good is actually built. For me, the recent changes only discouraged new students.
Please consider what learners are using the XP for and consider that this change is not encouraging learning (by testing for higher levels). If this is related to the leagues, then consider how league points are earned instead of changing the face of what XPs meant up until this week.
Does DL ever have panels of users review these changes before you slam us with them?
I'm now considering dropping Pro since you don't listen or respond to users.
Also DL makes changes that are significant and there is NO communication or discussion prior to or after changes are slammed onto the learners.
Thanks Kevin. I've heard about this and thought it was an implementation. However, I saw an argument earlier that said it was "for fairness on the scoreboard". This argument, IMO, doesn't stack up. Couldn't someone just go through the lessons normally and still get the same for testing out? Why should we punish users for knowing the content they've been given? This isn't really balancing out the scoreboard.
Bingo, and I am not willing to pay the bill for a league or leaderboards I am not interested in and I first time heard of only after a crucial feature was trashed - all just because DUO isn't able to throw out the cheaters on the leaderboards.
Neutering the XP count of testing out without doing the same with the amount of XP (+/- 30000) makes no sense to me.
This hurts me, I was doing a lot of duolingo a day 'cause testing out was saving my time, but now i feel desvastated with the new system. i'll beg for the return of the old system with the neccesary fixes for people that delete trees and repeat them. Thanks for reading :3
I'm not a fan of that...because it feels awesome to get a ton of XP because you know something..I guess you might as well do all the lessons to get all the XP?
So, @KevinR86, you seem to be the first "official Duo staff member" that I've come across in the forum. And that's all you wanted to say? Feels like a punch in the face, thank you.
If anyone wonders, this is the related thread posted two weeks ago with offical staff feedback:
"New XP limitation for test-outs" (Android): https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/30825616
Quote: Duolingo (Plus e-mail support) has let me know that:
"Earlier, we implemented a feature where users could level up in a skill and receive a large amount of XP. To make this more fair for all users, we are now limiting the maximum amount of XP you can earn from the following:"
- Testing out of a skill: 20 XP
- Section or Checkpoint Test-out: 50 XP
- Placement Tests: 100 XP
with offical staff feedback:
I don't see any official poster in the thread you linked. Am I missing something? From what I gathered, neither an "Insider" nor a "Host" or a "Moderator" are Duo staff. Can you elaborate, please?
I do presume that Admins are actually staff, such as KevinR86, but that, again, is just an assumption. Haven't ever found a clear indication of who is (or might be) who on Duo.
I've also never found a way of actually contacting Duo by any other means than the Submit Bug Report page. Even the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the help-page is non functional. Quite a shame, is it not!
Grüß Dich Olaf,
Quote: I don't see any official poster in the thread you linked. Am I missing something?
I should have made it probably more clear, sorry.
In the above linked thread the user B14-ocholengua is a Plus member, which means that he/she is allowed to use the "Plus: Contact support by e-mail" button.
The linked (and quoted) reply is the written answer from an offical staff (=admin or Plus support) member from the US HQ.
This is how I understand it.
You are correct Olaf, no admin or support has written this officially directly in the thread.
Kevin is the first staff member who cares to acknowledge it.
I just thought it may be a good idea to comment how the XPs are divided introducing the Plus support answer.
In the above linked thread the user B14-ocholengua is a Plus member, which means that he/she is allowed to use the "Plus: Contact support by e-mail" button.
I didn't know that Plus users may contact support while others are not even allowed to contact Duo at all (pun intended!). ;-)
same. i'm usually not one to vocalize any objections to changes, but this change in particular is one i'm not too fond of ):
Yes, it was a great way to get a bit of review during the busy times with low motivation. The exp and competition against myself was working well for this purpose. Too bad to see this damage done to the system we liked well. Perhaps we should start a thread on the alternatives. :-)
@Kevin, you are an admin, can you pass this on to the higher ups.
You ruined the only fun thing about duo. You made in next to impossible to get anywhere. You didn't tell us clearly. You also just ruined duolingo for so many. Testing out was fun! It was great! It was the high point in my day. Thanks a ton. All in the name of leaderboards. BRING BACK THE OLD DUO! Thanks for listening, to all our requests, not!
Oh! Wasn't Kevin an admin yesterday? And is now a moderator? That's interesting...
And for a little while, Kevin's mod status was flickering on and off too, so that they became a regular user sometimes.
I wonder what's happening...
No personal offense, you might be just the messenger, but if it isn't a bug, why does it feel like one?
Also the word "update" seems not to be the correct word for me, to me - exclusively using the website for a reason - it is a huge downdate. I see no improvement or progress at all, my progress and motivation went as deep as Kaleo in the vulcano - and they go.
This makes it extremely harder to gain a lot of XP. I guess my road to the top of the XP leaderboard is over.
But yet people who have tested out for years aren't removed. This would make a more fair chance, but alas, no.
Gotta say I hate this. I’m on iOS and I don’t care about leagues. Also annoying to not have it up to me when I find some skill work way too facile. Lowering the number of allowed incorrect answers in a test out quiz would be a much better fix, imo. Or just ditch xp, but stop the revaluation roller coaster.
I taught two languages in a university. When students tested out of a course, they got full credit for that course. This change is unmotivating, illogical and unfair.
Below I will list why this change is terrible and why the developers should change it back immediately.
No one wants to sit through 100 additional lessons to get through one basic piece that only teaches you the same 5 words: This causes me to want to step away rather than "grinding" through useless lessons that teach me nothing.
It destroys the "fluency" of learning the language: From an English speaker, it takes 150 hours to learn Esperanto, 480 hours to learn Spanish, 720 hours to learn Russian and so on. The problem with this new change is that now you are LIMITED to have to pretty much go one by one at a constant rate for all languages the adds to the hour when you're stuck doing the long basic lessons. I'll give you an example.
In Esperanto it's not going to take you 100 lessons to learn basic words because the language is easy and only needs 150 hours and in Russian, you go at your own pace to match the 720 hours needed. Unfortunately, if you are forced to do the lessons one at a time to eventually max out the experience of the language to 30,000 EXP it's going to take you an average of one hour a day for 600 days for ALL languages. Doesn't matter the ease or complexity, now you're stuck learning an easy language for two years if you stick here. Time to find a new website.
It demotivates you from doing anything on this website anymore: The fun of this website was making this feel like a game and now it feels cheap. You mean to tell me that a person who practices the same 5 words gets more experience than someone who tests out of a whole lesson and learns at a much faster rate because they study and put time into it and actively engage and pay attention? Are you trying to promote a mindless droning of clicking and repeating on this site? Now people with millions of EXP will always be at the top and now people working hard are put lower than those mindlessly clicking. Good job, now I want to move to a different website.
It destroys the community: I started one of the most popular Esperanto clubs on the mobile for this site and everyone loves to compare experience, love to test out to jump ahead and it pushes everyone. Now you expect us to see a 100 exp difference and try to get ahead when we all go at the same rate regardless of how well we know and learn the material? What's the point of the club? What's the point of talking to other people and pushing each other if it's all at the same rate? What's the challenge? Seems pointless to me and it seems pointless to all the other club members as well. We would have a much better time just chatting in an Esperanto server on Discord than on here.
Prevents new learners: good luck new learners wishing to get ahead and max out a language. You know that language you should pick up in a few months? Yeah? Try a few years now when you're here. Doesn't matter who you talk with, doesn't matter how many friends you have to push yourself, doesn't matter how hard you try. To max out that skill tree, get access to learn new words and to learn new phrases and contexts is going to take years now.
If I don't see this going back then I don't think I'm going to be sticking around. Seems like this site is content with running away anyone new, punishing the veterans and running itself straight into the ground with the way they've handled past updates.
Wait up - everyone is going on as if they have removed the ability to test out. You can still test out - and you get *crowns for it - but not XP which were a measure of time spent on DL.
To max out that skill tree, get access to learn new words and to learn new phrases and contexts is going to take years now.
Actually learning as in long term memory ability to recall - without prompts like tiles - vocab and grammar does take more than a few months of learning. A start for an easy language - for a good student on a professional course - is about 1000 hours.
Yes, it must have just switched 20 minutes ago, or just switched for some people.
Yes, it did switch. I'm on the PC, not the app, and only got 20 points instead of 400 for testing out.
This is a funny thing, I've only very recently returned to Duolingo, found about leagues and the testing out thing... And although I myself abused it a bit, I totally get where they come from with this cap. People with only English as a studied language and 2000+ XPs at the top of the board were hugely annoying.
It is not only about test out: XP represent rising levels, it is important too... Now it is boring as hell to rise another level...
Gonna take me at least 41.5 test outs to get to level 16 in Indonesian... Yeah there are only 69 or so skills in the tree and I have already golded 24 skills, 2 are almost there.
Terrible update. While it's frustrating people cheat the system I found xp/leaderboards as motivation to put more time into practicing than I normally would. Particularly with this app. It's silly I know, but sometimes it's the little things. Now I feel like using Duolingo less and utilizing a different learning platform instead.
You changed the rules during the game ... I will wait a few days to know if you intend to go back, if not, I will go elsewhere. Vous avez changé les règles en cours de partie... J'attendrai quelques jours pour savoir si vous comptez revenir en arrière, si non, j'irai voir ailleurs. Cambiaste las reglas durante el juego ... Voy a esperar unos días para saber si va a volver, si no, voy a ir a otra parte.
J'ai décidé de limiter mes points xp à 20 par jour dans les prochains jours. Et à 20 minutes par jour.
I decided to limit the time spent on duo to 20 minutes a day, and to 20 xp a day in the following days.
I just now noticed that! It really ticks me off. I just tested out of two skills and only got 40XP out of it. Duo stafft, change this please!
Disappointed in this change. I think it was fair to earn the same number of points in testing out of a skill as you would have for completing each lesson individually. It's completely devalued the meaning of levels. Someone who goes through all of the lessons will end up with a much higher level than someone with the same skills who tests out.
Probably, but it would be nice if they would do that in a more complete manner, including changing to a crown number after each language flag here in the forum, for instance.
What IS the meaning of the levels?
Can it not be an accomplishment to get a completely gold tree with a MINIMUM number of experience and levels.
Every time I ever replayed a video game the goal was to do it faster, weaker, or some other measure than previously so I could see how good I was.
Why not see if you can get a full gold tree on a language you know with the minimum possible?
That seems like great motivation.
Yes, this sounds like a great idea for the just reviewing learners actually! But at the beginning of the tree, not in the middle.
It sounds great! I'll do that, when (if) I start a new language on Duolingo! (But it doesn't solve the discouragement concerning the ones already started).
But I love your creative attitude! Have some lingots!
As one user recently added her experience, there are now people paying lingots in the app to test out and get significatnly fewer xp. It gets more and more bizare. So why not change everything as the users too. :-D
Tried that when I joined DL, was good on the way, then DL decided to "Implement" and "Improve" and "Update" the site and trashed my progress in the process and set everything back to zero and one. Wasn't a great motivation at all.
XP cuts are bad. It really curbs motivation and I do hope it gets restored to how it was. Kinda feels like I'm cheated out of points for doing a test. And gaining huge amounts of XP is quite satisfying and motivating.
I can not reach the level I really have. It's boring to repeat the same basic lessons 40 times... I use Duo many hours with many language, Now it does not work, I can not be efficient anymore, I need to spend... no... waste more time with the same thing. Maybe I will do just one lesson a day... Boring
DEMOTIVATING AND ILLOGICAL
I too found it motivating to test out of skills once I was confident enough in my abilities. The xp that I earned from testing out to level 5 motivates me to progress. If I'm only going to get 20 xp for testing out of 3+ skills, then I'll most likely take my language learning elsewhere tbh. It's basically like a slap to the face
@Whiskkebarr, from a mod! I agree, this will probably end my duolingo career
This is disappointing. Personally I found it helpful to have a leaderboard and huge XP incentives. I also test out skill trees, but just for the language I'm learning (mostly german). I don't find it annoying to have someone testing out English skills only, say. After German I'd go on to French or whatever but not repeating the same skill tree, and learn fast......
What a terrible decision, not going to even attempt to try the German tree for just 20 exp a time...
You get 20 xp per lesson for German? I am only getting 10 xp for all my languages
I think they mean they're getting 20 exp for testing out each lesson, not the 10 per lesson learning/review.
I just compete against myself and the people that I’m following. There’s many ways to fix the league problem, they don’t need to do something that messes with the rest of us. I kind of want to take a break from duo because of this but I have so many language related goals and duo is so much fun, I just hope they fix this. I want to get my Spanish tree to be entirely 3 crowns by the end of May, which marks me finishing Spanish III and my projected Spanish courses in school. Unfortunately having to actually do the lessons will take much longer and I don’t know that I have the patience for it. On another note, I had set a goal for 500XP daily (10 is my official goal on duo), which is enough to push myself but definitely too much if I have to do it lesson by lesson/without the 80-160 boost from test out(s) in Spanish.
To earn more XP, you need to take more lessons and not use the test-out feature. If you take more lessons, the more chance they could show ads.
Crowns were implemented to show more ads, this cap is the same thing.
This is so painfully discouraging...I have been enjoying testing out of levels and seeing my XP soar...and when doing so a few minutes ago only gave me 20 XP I figured it must have been an error. Alas, after another try gave the same result and flocking to the discussion tab my worst fears have been confirmed. I do understand the challenge to make the league leaderboards fair but one would figure Duolingo would find a way to do that without letting down its users. I use the test out feature frequently especially when cross training (learning a language "backwards", aka learning a language I know from a target language) where it does not make sense to go through every individual lesson so the XP really help to monitor my progress, and now that is lost. I hope Duolingo will realise what it has done and come up with a better solution, such as only capping test out points in the league leaderboards as some have suggested.
@The blobfish, its like Duo is TRYING to make it more difficult to get anything done. Its like they are TRYING to drive duolingo into the mud
I have obtained Sapience. The mud will continue to rise until it consumes this world. None will remain unsullied.
Except for when you get to the poem where cats get killed. Then you have had too much Poe.
I think the majority of people are here to learn a language, not to compete with a bunch of strangers, so if this XP change is an issue brought about by the introduction of leagues to PC it's not worth it. I know a league won't motivate me at all, so why should I be forced into it?
Also, there was no announcement regarding this change and I haven't seen someone from Duolingo comment (correct me if I'm wrong and have overlooked it). Obviously, many people are upset by the change so why are they ignoring us?
I frequently use the test out feature because I have a strong background in French and don't feel like typing "elle a un chat" a thousand times to move on. Getting all of the XP points makes me feel accomplished in my learning progress, and they're going to give me 20XP for all my hard work? Silly.
I agree with this. I'm using Duo to learn languages, not to compete with a bunch of people I don't even know. I have no use for leagues or competing with other people or being someone's "friend" on Duolingo. As for "friends", you can't communicate with them anyway, so what's the point? Some years ago, you actually could post messages on other people's pages, so having a "friend" or two might have made some sense. I still have a bunch of them, but the odd time I will get an annoying message from Duo telling me that so-and-so has surpassed me in points today - and I don't care! and I don't want to see those annoying messages, so I just "unfriend" that person so I won't need to see those annoying messages anymore. (Come to think of it, I think I will "unfriend" everyone!)
I'm also studying some languages I originally learned in high school or university, so testing out was a good way to get ahead of the basics repeated ad nauseum and get into the stuff that really needed work.
@JenniferOD agreed! I was going to get Plus, but now they have done this...? Not in a million years
I DID IT! I went and left an enraged comment on the duolingo facebook page hahahahahahhahamuhhhhhhahahah :)
I am royally p*#^sed. Some changes are good. I loved the added depth. But reducing the XP for testing out was a BAD move. I appeal to the administrators to reverse this decision before you experience a mass exodus.
Hi @WitlessBittern! It's great to see you again. That's really weird. But I'm inclined to agree with @Sharon that it's not a bug and is supposed to be an experience cap.
BTW, was your baby born? What's his/hers name?
She was born healthy, thank you! We couldn't be happier. I can't seem to put the little girl down.
I won't mention her name here, not because it's private but because I was previously scolded by a moderator for revealing personal information in the form of a pet's name.
Seriously? You got scolded by a mod for revealing your pet's name?! How's that revealing personal info?
Yeah, a discussion of pets was deleted when their names were revealed. It wasn't mean-spirited, but it made me realize that I don't understand the rules as well as I thought. If I had to take a guess as to the reasoning, it would be that some people use pet names as clues in password recall questions. Duo runs a tight ship.
Good for you! I didn't know you were planning to have a baby, so congratulations!
That's very odd. Unless the pet's name was somehow revealing (which is highly unlikely), I honestly don't see how that could be seen so bad. Sorry.
Reading the posts above, it seems to be a new update, and not a bug like originally thought.
Yeah, I changed my post becuae reading through the other comments, I began to think the same thing. Thanks.
Ew I have the new terrible update now, tested out of a skill I know and only got 20 XP. Duolingo sucks, I don't even know why I learn here.
I wouldn't say Duolingo sucks, I just think they go a bit far with their updates. Trying to hard to make money.
They need to care more about users than money, that is why they are tanking.
testing out made me feel like i knew the material and allowed me to push through quicker, lame update
Testing out was fun, a great method to revise and strengthen. Having originally finished the tree, I dumped 85,000 xp to revise my way through (testing). It was great and motivating when working alone!
While I have felt there is a fair enough argument that the XP points given for testing out have been excessive some, it's totally ridiculous to reduce it all the way to a cap of 20 XP. I really hope they go back on this change sooner rather than later.
I agree that the leaderboard leagues are a bit irritating. I have no interest in competing against other people.
I've tried out the test-out feature with the new capped XP and agree with others who say it's demotivating. I've read other people's comment, both pros and cons. And I've decided...
...to take a break from Duolingo.
This is hardly the first time they have so incompetently added a new feature, but as a long-time user, I'm just tired of having to so regularly readjust my personal goals and re-motivate myself to use Duolingo because they change things we veteran users have come to count on and expect. If Duolingo wants to do away with XP and levels down the line and eventually rid the format of gamification, fine, but they could at least do it with some amount of planning and foresight, and introduce those changes in ways that doesn't make those of us who have invested so much time into this product like we just had a ton of <insert your choice of repulsive material here> dumped on us out of the blue.
And hey, it's Lent. I need to give up something, right? So, later, Duolingo. See you, maybe.
Cade - Hope you come back. Sometimes a break is good, but don't let your love of learning languages as well as all that you have learned die. Also, for Lent I find it's more fun and rewarding to give up a bad habit. :) Although I completely understand and agree with your views...
Completely agree, what a demotivator. I love quite some of the new implementations such as being able to take your skills to level 5 and the Labs, but please remove this XP cap. Let people decide their own learning rate without penalising them. Not testing out on skills is a real waste of my time as I don't need 10+ lessons to retain all the vocabulary taught. With this implementation I could literally have all skills golden without even reaching level 25 in a language.
First off, it is a lame update and secondly, if so, then Duolingo must reduce the maximum 30000 xp for level 25 to the reasonable minimum...bcoz it takes a lot of time to reach that point...
Personally, as the cap seems to be still in place despite all the proests, I think I will also move on with a very low motivation here, only keeping my streak alive. It is really unfortunate how little duolingo cares about the community, especially the power users, which were seeing I guess most of the advertisements. This means i guess it is time to move on and checkout better platforms which listen more to their customers.
@ilovekirun: I think that is the way things are. It is disappointing and sad.
Duolingo is destroying itself.
All the long term users are frustrated and angry. Not one single experienced user appreciates the last changes.
The quality is deteriorating - nobody seems to care.
Some trees are not taken care of any more. There are false DL translations, there are DL mistakes - users report and make comments to improve the system - but for about a year nothing more happens. The mistakes persist.
Many precious features disappeared. The crown system was introduced with a tremendous amount of unvoluntary repetitions (the voluntary repetition feature disappeared - we can no longer choose a specific lesson to repeat). Grinding the same stuff over and over again does not make sense for power users. It is frustrating. One way to escape this was the Test Out. But DL does not want users to test out.
Every now and then somebody from the DL staff pretends to enter into a dialogue with the users - but meanwhile I think this is just to install a valve to avoid the excess pressure. It gives hope for a while that good features might be reinstalled and bad updates might be undone - but the community has been waiting in vain. Nothing ever happens. There is no communication between DL and their customers.
This is a lack of respect and esteem for the community.
Well said Ursulias. Nothing no matter what we say is going to change duo. I don't think they are listening. And I highly doubt that they are paying attention to this thread
This sucks, now it doesn't really reflect how much do you know about a language, and also now it's not motivational, before you were really motivated to make tests and get a huge amount of points and start leveling up, but know??
arghhh, it's like a piece of ❤❤❤❤, literally :P
I really don't think XP is a reflection on how much you know a language either.
It never reflected how much you knew. It just reflected how much time you spent. Now it better reflects that again.
It isn't supposed to reflect anything. It is supposed to motivate. If you're not motivated by xp then no problem, just ignore it. But if you are then this is a change for the worse. We're not getting the psychological effect of reward which makes it easier to stick with learning.
Re: Edit. Please read all the comments and find different solution to percieved problem. Not an elegant solution. Easy solution are never good. Think before you make such a change. The reaction to this chance should be your guide.
The only and only reason for me to use Duolingo was the motivation it gave to me. But honestly, today, I disappointed. I usually use Test-Out as a tool to keep my streak up when I'm very busy. But this way, I have to spend more time. The streaks give me hope that I don't lose learning. Today I'm on the 64-day streak and I'm glad, but I don't know what will happen with such updates. The truth is that Duolingo UI, UX, and lessons are great but despite that, the scoring system is the best motivation for the user. Why the first thing that comes to mind, must be implemented? You could add a system to track how the user gained the score, instead of this. So the leader board could be separated or filtered by such things. Less point, Less motivation to do the lesson.
I have to mention that I have the TinyCards app but I don't use it much because of the pointing system. I gain much more with the Duolingo than the TinyCards.
I don't feel this is fair. I know, there are people who use the system to cheat, but this isn't the way to fix that. If people want to cheat for XP, let them. That's up to them. If they want to cheat, don't punish users who have been with you for years, have streaks of 500+, and have contributed to your courses just to solve one very close-minded problem. I personally don't care about XP leaderboards that much, and I know of lots of people that don't either; they spend their time actually learning. This bothers me.
If people have learned from other places such as Memrise, Babbel, Drops, etc. I don't think they should punish us from our hard earned XP, just "earning" it from other places. For example, if I learn every food item (in German) on Babbel, then because I already have the knowledge, I would just test out, and get the amount of XP everyone else gets for learning that through Duolingo. The fact they only give you half, a third, an eight, whatever, just shows that they're trying to keep you on Duolingo, and not learn through any other source, or else you can waste your time, or not get any XP for your hard-earned work.
Long story short, I love Duolingo in a lot of ways, but they're really taking the fun out of language learning. First they make it a child's game on mobile. They add a health system to mobile so people spend more money on Duolingo PLUS. So I move to the web. And honestly, I'm out of places to go. Thanks for trying Duolingo, but you've honestly failed in a lot of ways.
I am going on google play and giving duo a 1 star review. Honestly. Leaderboards ruined it or us! Shame on duo. One step forward two steps back. This new thing takes us back into the dark ages!
I've been using Duolingo to refresh my fading French, German, and Spanish skills. My motivation to keep using Duolingo and maintain my streak has collapsed now I only get 20xp when testing out of a skill. What a terrible update.
I never comment on anything, but I would like to add my voice of frustration to the crowd. This new point cap is the worst.
Honestly, I could see capping it at 100xp. While it would not be as much as you used to get for the big test outs, it would still be worth the time to do.
That is, unless they are actively trying to get people to stop testing out of skills, which may be the case considering how they are charging lingots for it in the app...
Once again the number of upvotes and lingots to anything that disapproves of the update says enough.
Dang it! That sucks! I used to test out and get loads of XP, now I guess I have to do it the original way
I would have been quite upset if they had implemented this one day earlier, before I made it into a ruby league. BTW: I've found that to get into a league I have to complete a lesson on the phone. But once I'm in the league, XPs I earn on the website count towards the league.
I find XPs a poor reflection of how much of the course I have mastered. I could (theoretically) repeat the same lesson over and over and reach level 25.
I would prefer level to be the number of crowns I've earned in a course as a percentage of those available. Once I've promoted every skill to level 5 I would be at 100%.
I guess I will toss in my two cents on this topic. Duolingo designed the points to incent us to spend time on their app and to help make learning a new language more fun. And guess what? IT WORKS! Life is just one big competition anyway. Give us back the points. I spend time on other language learning tools besides DuoLingo. But the vast majority of my time goes to DuoLingo. Honestly, I will reevaluate that decision. I suspect I will shift more of my time to other tools (like www.studyspanish.com).
It is disappointing not to receive big xp payouts for testing out. I think it's true that those payouts are motivational. I also tend to agree that going through every lesson can be better for learning the language. And, then there is the issue of whether (and for whom) there is a conflict between Duolingo as a language learning tool and a game. I think the change was too drastic, even if it Duo did it because the idea was that it would improve learning. If increasing "time on task" were the idea, then it will have the opposite effect on those who enjoy testing out. The fun makes the language-learning easier. Ultimately, everyone acknowledges that Duo is not enough to gain language fluency in any case. As far as the competitive or game aspect, I'm not sure why Duo should care. My only suggestion would be to make point values in all the skills equivalent so that everyone would have the opportunity to score the same points. And, btw, how did Duo decide on "20 points" when that isn't even the highest daily goal? Why not award more points for the single tests so that could encourage people who enjoyed earning points could focus on them? Those users who are more interested in finishing their trees or who are already familiar with the language would not need the incentive of points.
I'd say it is a conflict between Duolingo for complete beginners using only Duolingo, and Duolingo for a much more diverse crowd of learners (all the people with partial skills from elsewhere, users of more courses, rusty intermediate learners refreshing their knowledge, and so on).
Everyone agrees Duolingo is not enough for anything on its own. So, it goes and discourages the users who use it together with something else.
The exp for test outs and trying to get to level 25 has been very motivating for my Spanish review here on Duolingo (I was about to get back to it tomorrow, after an exam, and complete the tree). Now that I'd either have to spend way too much time on the basics, or test out without the hope of ever getting to level 25, I simply cannot see any reason to use Duolingo instead of the tools without gamification but with richer content.
I think the only reason, why so many people are still here and mind this change is the lack of gamified practice tools for the more intermediate learners. There are significatnly fewer, so people settle for Duolingo and use it differently from the beginners. And that's what is being changed by the staff.
Much as I loved getting the huge number of points, I think it's an incentive to skip over points one should spend more time on. So I think that overall, the introduction of 20 points only is a good idea (sob).
@DeborahMac, how much time to I have to spend on "Estoy muy cansado hoy" before I can move on?
You can move on. You just won't get masses of points. I have to confess I loved getting the extra points. But it's probably better for me to repeat the lessons, as that is the way a language is learnt - heaps of repetition.
@Deborahmac, thats the point. I took the time to learn the material and the all of a sudden I get 20 damn points for it.
I understand. I'd put off getting Level 25 in German and I'm now regretting it. The last 1330 are going to be a hard slog instead of a breeze.
I was affected as well and I have to say that I was very disappointed. And yes, i hate the changes, because, like a lot of people here, when i tested out and got a big reward it felt motivating and satisfying. But what got me truly upset is the fact that we weren't warned... Or at least not in a efficient way. From what I see, a lot of people found out about this when they tested out and didn't receive the xp they expected and that's highly unfair. If there is a problem, there are better ways to solve it. Regular users shouldn't suffer because a few people wanted to cheat on leaderboards...
when was this change implemented?
Count me among those who don't like it!
I came to duo with a pretty decent spanish background and used the level 25 goal to keep me motivated. I hit it pretty quickly by testing out.
If I had to do thousands of hours of reviewing this I already knew, I wouldn't stick around to get to level 25.
I've now changed my goal to get all yellow, and so I don't really care about XP any more.
But for those following my path, I think the old way should be brought back.
EDIT: while I don't like the change. . . the backlash seems pretty disproportionate!
I've been hit with this today. Ordinarily, I wouldn't mind the change since I compete only against myself. BUT I do have a few issues with this. I recognize that Duolingo is trying to strike a compromise between making it easy for beginners to learn a new language and keeping advanced learners like myself actively learning. I also acknowledge that there are cheaters who care more about their position on the leaderboards than the languages themselves. Yet, I feel that this change will hurt both advanced learners and naturally fast learners by penalizing them for their knowledge and retention of the language.
I say this as a naturally fast learner who has regilded one tree before the recent change (French-->English), has about another month to go before a second is regilded (English-->French), and is reviewing and practicing a language that I had taken in high school and one semester of college (Spanish). The ability to test out has allowed me to regild the trees and to practice material I already know without seeing the same words repeatedly over 80 lessons per skill crown. The same goes for an easy skill in another language. I get the idea behind the cap. Yet, it's unfair to award someone who goes through all the lessons more XP than those who test out because the skill becomes too easy around Crown 2-3 and who decides to test out to advance to harder material. If a skill has 600 total points available, all 600 points should be awarded to all who complete the skill. Not 600 for one and 20-60 for another.
Maybe a more suitable answer lies within the lessons themselves. Perhaps there should be an extra test at each checkpoint and a longer one at the end of the course. No test outs would be allowed for these tests. If you don't pass them, you should be forced to go back and review the earlier skills up to that checkpoint/the end. At the same time, you should lose the proportionate number of XP to the skills that you got wrong. (For example, if you err on 5 skills worth 600 XP, you should lose 3,000 XP...and have to review those skills again.) Maybe that would deter the cheaters for a while while allowing advanced and naturally fast learners to progress to more advanced material at their own pace.
Full disclosure: I have a bit of an aversion to repeating the easy material with the very slow addition of new vocabulary and grammar. During my second year of high school, my Spanish 2 teacher (the same one I had for Spanish 1 the year before) decided to use a teaching method called Total Physical Response . It would have been okay if we were starting out. Yet, we were a little more advanced, and we should have started with the past tense and went from there. Within the first month of TPR, it became apparent to me that we wouldn't learn a lot of grammar or vocabulary. What was fun became a chore. In addition, I needed to prove my Spanish fluency to earn college credit. I kept every note that I had made during both years of high school Spanish, and I poured over them before the SAT II. Come test time, I found that I did not recognize ANY of the grammar and vocabulary on it. As a result, I actually failed to reach the threshold of minimum fluency, and I had to take the college-level Spanish 2 to gain the knowledge I should have had when I graduated high school. The experience has left me VERY hesitant to use sites like Memrise or any site that uses conversational Spanish/French/etc. for my language learning. So far, Duolingo has provided me with the structured learning that I have craved, and I'm grateful for it. But I don't want to see the site turn into another Memrise.
If Duo doesn't see this Discussion, especially as a the top discussion as of right now, (and to be honest for a long time unless this problem is fixed), something is really going wrong . . .
@Khaiel, I have been on duolingo for nearly 2 years and I can say honestly that duo doesn't give a crap as to what the users think. I can't name a single time when there was an outrage over something and it got reversed. Duo knows best. They don't care, I can say that this is probably going to stay forever, so lets all attempt to get used to it!
Is very disappointing, this new update! Just check also this yesterday! Why just give 20 XP, for a 45 lessons step over?! The knowledge of a user in some levels, can be good and in return just 20 XP ? Makes no sense at all!
its honestly awful, i made 1000 xp in one day and like 100 xp the next, its demotivating, its an awful update, leaving a bad review on the duolingo app
I just noticed this after I did my test out in German. I couldn't believe when I noticed I only got 20xp after completing the test out for level 5. So demotivating.
So its been a few days now since DL made this change. The community response is overwhelmingly negative. I've found at least 6 other threads besides this one on this same subject and have yet to see anyone who's happy about this. Sure I've seen people who try to rationalize the change, but not one single person who actually thinks it's an improvement.
Come on DL either change it back or give reasoning for making the change. Otherwise this just looks mean.
It's a STUPID update, and if anything a motivational killer. FORCING people to go through LONG redundant levels that many DO NOT NEED or want to go through! You're KILLING a good thing here, DUO... I thought owls were supposed to be wise! This move certainly was NOT!
Don't just provide this feedback here. Send them a message using the feedback function within the settings menu of the app. Then go out to Facebook, Twitter, and such. Also, go to the app store and give the app a solid 1-star rating. If enough people share their frustration then maybe the owl will extract its head from wherever it is stuck.
I put a discussion on the French forum relative to this subject. I put you downward one of my posts in French, but first, I try to translate it for English speakers.
Let us take a language which I already know, but which I want to review. Let us imagine that I achieve all tests with the key. How I make to attain level 25? Let us make a small counting.
I collect 20 xp each time I succeed in having a crown by a test. Let us put that I want to review English and its 55 units, i.e 275 crowns. I shall have supplemented the tree, all units in 5 crowns, and I shall have... 5500 xp. It will therefore be necessary me to make 24500 xp by the single reviews which give 10 xp every time, it will therefore be necessary for me to make nothing less than 2450 reviews!!!
There is no need to rehearse every unit more than quarantine times (on 2450 / 55) while they achieved tests by the key. Therefore all people who are not debutantes, and who want to review as it is the case of many, are absolutely demotivated, as I could see on dialog in English, and I understand them because the same goes for me. I do not even any more want to supplement trees in 5 crowns for a so pitiful result, 5500 xp on 30000, even not 20 %.
Prenons une langue que je connais déjà, mais que je veux réviser. Imaginons que je réussisse tous les tests avec la clé. Comment je fais pour atteindre le niveau 25 ?
Faisons un petit calcul. Je collecte 20 xp chaque fois que je réussis à avoir une couronne par un test. Mettons que je veuille réviser l'anglais et ses 55 unités, soit 275 couronnes.
J'aurai complété l'arbre, toutes les unités à 5 couronnes, et j'aurai... 5500 xp. Il me faudra donc faire 24500 xp par des seules révisions qui donnent 10 xp à chaque fois, il me faudra donc faire rien moins que 2450 révisions !!!
Nul n'est besoin de rabâcher chaque unité plus d'une quarantaine de fois (2450 / 55) alors qu'on a réussi les tests par la clé.
Donc toutes les personnes qui ne sont pas débutantes, et qui veulent réviser comme c'est le cas de beaucoup, sont complètement démotivées, comme j'ai pu voir sur le dialogue en anglais, et je les comprends car il en va de même pour moi. Je n'ai même plus envie de compléter les arbres à 5 couronnes pour un si piètre résultat, 5500 xp sur 30000, même pas 20 %.
Duolingo wants more money. How do they think they'll achieve that?
- Ads. But that was not enough money
- Duolingo PLUS. But there are not enough PLUS subscriptions according to them. So they want to incite user to subscribe. How can you do that? By implementing a two speed system, very like F2P crappy games on your phone, people are used to that with games.
- Skipping lessons now cost lingots. but that wasn't enough still since people were full of lingots and therefore were not limited fast enough by this implementation. They then needed to push people to skip more lessons, to reach their daily goal, therefore...
- Decreasing the XP reward. People will fall short on lingots and will not want to do lessons 1 by 1, that should raise the PLUS subscription count.
From a business perspective, that is quite logical unfortunately. Just hope that won't go further as this is literally decreasing quality for profit. I feel that's actually already a bit too much.
You're right and I think you've described the situation the best. You've forgotten to include just one more point: motivating people to go through 15 (or sometimes many more) little tests instead of 1 bigger test makes them see 15 ads instead of 1.
I think Duolingo is underestimating one huge factor here. The quality. The courses are good for a "free" tool. Some of them just ok, some worse, some excellent (German is very good for a free course). But if you compare it with the other paid digital services, it is average or simply bad. So, pushing people to pay too much may actually make us go to the competitors instead (or just give up on digital learning and return to the non gamified, but reliable and high quality books). Yes, they have a marketing disadvantage, Duolingo is the most visible one on the internet. But that can change.
Really, if I am being pushed to Duolingo Plus too much and still want a digital learning tool for some of my weaker languages, I'll go for Lingodeer, Kwiziq (hopefully they'll get more langauges), or the full version of Clozemaster.
From a logical point of view, this makes no sense. Duolingo would probably generate much more income through ads sales than they would through additional plus users. The two easiest ways to accomplish this would be to increase ads, and there is still plenty of space to put them not in app and on the web. OR to increase membership and getting additional eyes on the current ads.
As someone above mentioned, they have increased the number of ads you see. At least 8x if you don't test out of level 4 and 20x if you don't test out of level 5 (and why would you when you only get 20xp?) It's crappy and cynical but it makes logical sense.
Please see what I'm replying to. I was responding to the contradictory statement that duo makes most of its money through ad sales and yet this doesn't make sense. Plus members have already given their money to Duo. I didn't say it was a good business plan, lol.
I know I am only one more here complaining, but I hate this update. Can someone message me when they revoke the 20xp cap please? I won't use the app anymore until then
Horrible and unfair change. If you don't remove this stupid limit of 20 XP, I will leave Duolingo after this update that punishes us for skipping easy levels and force us to be an eternal beginner.
I'm not a fan of this approach I literally spend hours each day learning and now I feel I'm not being compensated. However, I'm willing to adapt to this new approach. Gracias
Yeah, a lot of people have noticed and are really mad. Me included. I see the plus side but I still liked getting points.
Some people really like it for (in my opinion) snooty reasons.
I can understand why people are upset. As for myself, I can live with it. It makes me think more about practicing the languages I really need to practice instead of just boosting my XP and streak length while doing practically nothing. I mean, to harvest EN->RU & RU->EN trees while being a Russian native with decent English skills - that's pretty much cheating and rank boosting. Yeah, nobody's perfect. It was OK while I was busy at work for the past two months and also my mindset was far from being productive, but now it's time to get myself together and do some real progress in German and Japanese.
I'm having to spend so much more time on Duo now, which is fine and all but sometimes I don't have this time.
It's the same in Spanish. I guess it's to stop people xp hunting for the leagues that were introduced a few weeks ago. The leagues can be motivating but they can also encourage bad leaning habits.
I completely understand on part 6 in Spanish only get 20 XP for test that would be worth up to 80 XP
Everyone has pretty much said what I'd say, but honestly, the worst part is probably them not making a stickied announcement about this. I feel more and more that Duolingo does not care about maintaining its current user base, and thinks that the old users will just continuously be replaced by new blood. I feel like I'm in a several new beta tests at any given moment and I'd like my experience on here not to change constantly.
When it comes to how this particular change affects me, I like to test out of the languages that I've studied elsewhere. These are also languages I used to do on here back we had spaced repetition. These are languages I have done the lessons for now several times, they are languages I know well. Yes, I can still test out of them, but I'd like the XP to reflect that. Or just rid of XP levels all together, idk.
I don't know anything about the leagues, I don't know anything the cheating. If anything, those users are cheating themselves. But for me, and I'm sure others, we need the tests because we literally testing our knowledge. And if we score well on the test, we deserve the points.
I get what's going on now. Some people are really into the gaming elements of DL, including the bragging rights on accomplishment (XP) for various languages they know. I get that. I think the purpose of Duolingo is a platform to learning the languages. Thus, I think XP should show what you've learned using DL, not what you learned elsewhere. The point of Duolingo is to learn. The gamification elements should be secondary to the learning. I guess for some, the game is the supreme goal.
Isn't it a bit presumptuous to pretend to know what's good for others? The game is the best learning tool and the result of billions of years of evolution. If you don't like 'gamification', don't spoil the game for others. Isn't that reasonable? If you don't care about XP, what does it matter to you how many XP's are being awarded? Just don't look at the counter.
Story of my life. I figure out something that works for me—in this case testing out of languages I knew well on weekends so I could have a bit of a break—and someone just comes along and moves the goalposts so I have to do ten times the work for the same results. I know this time it’s just a goofy computer game, but it’s happened so often in my professional life that at this point it just feels like the way the world works. If I had an iota of self respect I would just quit. Everything. But I am a craven coward and beneath contempt, so I guess I’ll just grin and say Thank you, sir, may I have another? and continue to flail frantically like a rat in a storm drain, working my butt off because even though there are no more rewards I’m so brainwashed that I have no idea how to do anything else.
I am not happy with this new implementation and many seem to feel the same way.
I have a good basic understanding in French, Spanish, Italian, Greek and German and I enjoyed receiving the extra XP when completing a level all at once. It was a motivating factor for me to come on Duolingo everyday because I also am learning Chinese, Russian, Hebrew, and Hindi. For those languages I do the lessons in each level until I feel comfortable with what I learned and then around level 3 or 4, I'll attempt to do the next level all at once.
However this new strategy that Duolingo has implemented has me rethinking about using it.
I dropped my daily XP from 50 to 10 and if I continue I will certainly only do levels ‘0’ and ‘1’ and then move on.
I think it’s a terrible idea, it’s like telling us our learning efforts beyond duolingo are meaningless. I only don’t care that much because I already tested out of the languages I could. What annoys me is I can no longer check my levels through my phone. My laptop sucks so I’m rarely on there.
I did a test out and scored nothing! What the heck is going on. I ended up doing two test outs (about 30 points previously) and only just made my daily target (20points) on the second test out. I have a busy life and so the test outs are really useful for me, especially as I have been doing french for a long time and am reasonably fluent in it. I don’t have time to do loads of exercises which are bring and repititious.
I feel for you - I once tested-out of 50 lessons and received 0 XPs because of a glitch in their system (that was before this poor thought-out move).
I feel betrayed. 942-day streak. If I decide to finish the Russian module - I probably will - I'm sure I won't get to level 25 (which I've gotten to in Spanish, French, and Italian), and at that point I'll probably leave.
It seems like a way to keep people here longer, so that the owners can make more money with their ads and their PLUS memberships and their streak repairs, but, basically, the owners can go screw themselves. Whoever thought up this downgrade in the program is an effing moron.
everyone here learns differently and wants different things from the site
so why shoehorn everyone into the same place
the website, ios and android app are all completely different anyway! there is no consistency here
i will keep ranting about this until we get an answer or a solution, because i only came here for learning chinese, and helping improve the horrendous chinese tree
i am more than happy to use ChineseSkill or HelloChinese, much better resources than Duolingo
Do I have this right? The debate is over . . . A) Getting points for the amount of effort that you are currently putting into studying on DL, the app awarding the points. B) Getting points for all the exercises that they put on their app that you don’t need and are skipping because you’ve learned the language somewhere else, possibly even years ago.
Yes. Duolingo previously rewarded testing out of X number of lessons with 10X points. Now it rewards with a flat 20, making people choose between grinding through each individual lesson or accepting a considerably smaller reward for past knowledge/quick learning.
It’s a good one. Despite being the original poster here and leaning against the update, I’m surprised the debate is as one sided as it is. It’s more of a reversion, than anything; most of my XP progress came before the test out feature was available. But I suppose it’s never fun to have a feature taken away.
I knew it was a passionate topic when I made this thread (now heavily downvoted.) People can argue about the details, but it seems to me that either XP don't matter or they do. If they don't matter, then why have them at all? If they do, then of course people are going to care.
Edit: I've been trying to keep up with this thread but due to the large number of posts, I'm going to have to unfollow it. I'm still interested in any thoughts people have on my individual posts here. I'm going to be following under this thread instead.
The thing is, that Duolingo without the gamification tools like the xp is just a mediocre language course. Gamification can be done in various ways, and they've now been changing something that worked just fine for many people, that is the problem. And people obviously care.
The best resource is the one you stick with. To me, Duo has two big, related lures:
1) The means to trick myself into studying more than I otherwise would through gamification.
2) The ability to quantify my investment, even if it’s in an abstract way.
The update may tarnish these a bit, but it strikes me as something I could get used to. But if the gamification elements I enjoy (XP, levels, etc) were entirely removed, I’d probably use Duo less or not at all in favor of other resources.
I don't believe there's much to the old "if you don't like it, leave" argument. There are many things I am attached to that I don't strictly need, and I think it's fine to advocate for what features we'd like to have on the website.
I got already used to it. I am on Duolingo only 3 months now, so change will not rattle me. I am on this site to learn and not to collect points. The game is a challenge and yes it helps to motivate. However, I am not a kid, and do not need candy to do some task. Remember DL is free if you choose so and free to join and also free to leave.
Just when I think there are no more idiotic decisions left for them to make...
Is there a single person in this thread of almost 600 comments who actually thinks this is a good idea?
A few. Most of their arguments are somewhat sad and disappointing in a language learning community.
Normally I never comment on just about anything and now I'm actively trying to find other threads related to this to say that I hate this update! I deserve that XP, I earned it, and I feel cheated that I have to pay out 20 lingots to test out of a skill and get back a measly 20 XP. Uncool!!
Here, have the 20 lingots back. You seem to have gotten to a bad combination of A/B tests and changes.
Like really? Now the faster learner will pay more and get less reward... This is the first pay to lose game in the world :-D :-D :-D
It is unfortunate that this thread seems to have died out. There are several mentions that the devs don't listen or care, but that is likely because everyone just accepts changes, even bad ones, after a few days. If they get consistent feedback over several weeks that might change. Consider emailing support and using the in app feedback to share your thoughts on the Test-Out XP Cap. It is easy to ignore a user forum, but less so to ignore hundreds of support emails.
Since I avoid platforms like Fbook and google, twitter etc. and also don't use the DL app for about the same reasons the email approach and posting here is the only way left to verbally protest.
Thanks for the kicking my lazy butt! It was needed.
I tried a test with a Catalan key, it was worth 250 KN, unexpectedly, I only got 20 KNs, I didn't understand what was going on with Duolingo. Anyone who knows how to fix this error helps me.
This is not an error. The point of this post is to prove that this is a new update. There is no way to "fix" it.
I'm also incredibly disappointed that earning bonus points for completing a lesson was eliminated. I earned level 25 in Spanish the hard way through the Kindle app, and just recently side-loaded the Android app via Google play when features from the Kindle app stopped working and eventually I couldn't even log in. I discovered that I was put back to level 1 on nearly every lesson. Getting bonus points was a fun motivator to max out each lesson again, and also one of the few ways to compete against people in the leagues that cheat. I just reached the gold level, but if I'm not going to be rewarded for already completing and knowing the material, what is the point of doing these lessons again? At this point, I think I'm going to try a competitor language course- at least the material will be fresh.
I can also see that they are charging 20xp to make the daily goal .. (on the key)
I reported this as a bug. From what I read here, clearly this isn't a bug and was intended. NOT a welcome change. I was using that XP as MEASUREMENT for every time I wanted to start a course from scratch after completion, and there was no need to repeat all of the lessons, but just the ones that needed better learning. Probably a lot of people did the same. This is broken even at a conceptual level, since you will get students who know the language really well (after some time of studying) having LESS XP than people who are in the beginning and (on a case by case basis) need to grind through the lessons. The crown system was something interesting, even if it was welcomed by some and loathed by others. The new lessons and many other updates were making this app really really useful for learning. So let's keep up the good work, Duolingo, and avoid bloopers like these in the future.
Reporting it as a bug is exactly what I did, perfectly knowing that it was intentional. Why I reported it? Because it's the only means I see to actually transport information to Duo staff.
(... Although I might be wrong and there's another plethora of volunteers that act as a forefront to avoiding complaints from customers to make it to the staff.)
I've noticed that almost all of the posts in the popular page are complaining about this issue. Do you think Duolingo will take this back?
Yes, proving the people are too lazy to check if there is already a post about something before making one.
I wasn't really getting at that. It was more that the general consensus is that the "update" completely sucks and should be removed.
I'm also really annoyed about the update re testing out. I don't see the point and it's demoralising, I was enjoying adding to my daily xp and now I just do the bare minimum. What's the reason for the 'update'?
I test out as a way sometimes to speed up my quota for the day. I have set myself a serious learner, and to now not receive at least 30-40xp for a test out, has just reduced my commitment to keep my streak going. Now at 20xp, I have to at least complete 2 blocks to fulfill my daily commitment. 20xp to test out and another 10xp standard lesson to fulfill my daily goal. I find myself a little concerned as a duolingo plus member, that this has now effected how serious I am to learn a language. At least give us enough xp to do a quick daily goal... 30-40xp for the levels available. Plus if you would like paying members, please be considerate, and don't change things so suddenly without notification. It is amazing that you have not asked for feedback on the test out xp. I am one that has continued to go to the top of the class each week, and I really don't care about the xp as much as completing my daily goal... so take away the 200-450xp's but at least leave us enough for the serious learners.
I'm flipping annoyed at this. I just tested out of level 2 and 3 of a Japanese skill and only got 20 XP each. I figured the first might be a slight revision, since I had partially completed it before deciding to test out, but went right for the second skill and got the same 20XP. Bad move Duo staff. XP are fake points anyways. I liked getting fake points. This is rather demotivational. Please revert this.
I agree with many of the posts that indicate disappointment, but then again, I'm not doing this for the points. I am learning a language, and duo is only a supplement to my studies. Therefore...IDC.
Honestly points are just big "ego" measurers. But it was my ego gosh darn it. Why should I have to do the same sentence through twelve lessons that I already know? I understand redoing the same words on repeat, but if you have already spoken the language for years, then it's not like the repetitive early levels have enough of anything to offer. The skill xp cap only really incentives those who are starting from the very beginning. For advanced learners, it's kinda annoying. I've been learning German for 7+ years. I've been to Germany. Between last year and now, I've spent a whole year not speaking German. Now I'm trying to relearn it though Duolingo. I luckily tested out of all but the last bracket just last week. I can tell you that it felt good being brought to level 12 immediately. It felt good knowing that I've already gotten so far, and if I kept practicing the skills that I'm actually terrible at, then I could eventually reach level 25 mastery. It also felt good not having to say basic "I am, he is, she is" statements for 15 days before getting to relative clauses, hypotheticals, and pronouns. My goal currently is to get 5 crown in every skill and eventually reach level 25. I already speak it. 25 would signify that I not only speak it better now, but that I have an artificial indicator of my success. I don't think I would've stayed past level 10 if the skill cap only gave me 20 points for completing the entire tree. Why play an unrewarding game when I can just make flashcards? It would require less work. Does it not make sense that advanced students scores should reflect what they already know. Even if people on Samsung cheat, it's not as if they'll be around for long. It's so seasy to tell if someone is cheating if you look them up in duome.com/whatevertheirusernameis If you look at my profile, you can see the day I spent unlocking the German tree. The thousands of xp on the first day before dropping immediately to a reasonable rate.
Oh Jason, you level 25ed 6 languages in a week. Sure sweetie. YoU'rE sO sMaRt. Bet you have a Samsung too. How'd I know? Lucky guess. I bet your fan club thinks you're great.
The ego is sometimes an excellent motivator to make progress. Nothing wrong with that. Funny how those who pretend not to care about XPs are keen on explaining to others how many XPs they should get... XPs don't mean anything. But obviously, some people spend more time here if they get a chance to obtain more of them. Good for them.
This. I speak somewhat German, I live in Germany. I don’t want to keep repeating the same sentence 50 times. I already know it. But I want to practice, and I want to be rewarded and motivated. I gave up Rosetta a couple of years back, as I could not be bothered to keep practicing things I knew to progress to the next level. I got bored. But I am a type of person who does not like to jump over things - I don’t want to miss anything, just 8n case.
I noticed this happened late last week. I thought it was due to the many complaints regarding users accumulating too many XP (by testing out) and in some’s opinion were unfair method to climb up the leaderboards. I feel for courses like Japanese, Korean and Chinese where they just repeat about the same words/phrases for each module, it doesnt seemed too bad to cut down the doubling of XP. But for courses like French and Spanish (and maybe others I’m not aware of), the sentences varies as you go through the module and it takes much more effort to get through them via test out. I hope they will look into this again and if I was right about them addressing those complaints on leaderboards, they’ll take this complaint into consideration as well.
Even I don't like this idea of less XP from testing out. It can really demotivate the learners
It is not fair, please restore my hard earned points. What is the point of testing out if not for this superior reward!!
This just about kills off the already now pointless 'levels'. They will no longer correlate to level of language knowledge at all. The connection to completing/gilding a tree was already poor, but now it will be more or less gone unless you simply decide to test out for the sake of testing out. But why bother, just abandon the lower levels of the tree when you feel like it.
Not a killer change, but strange that another one of the measures of advancement is essentially being killed off. There used to be the 'fading', XP/levels, and overall tree progress. Now there is only overall tree progress.
I was spending too much time on Duo lingo motivated partially by the gaming competition atmosphere. However, I will keep an eye of what is happening with this update, and maybe do 20 a day (10 minutes). Its time to use other resources such as Rosetta Stone, Destinos, and other on line tools. See you all (ustedes) later. Good luck with with the updates!
I want to have back the test out possibility and get the corresponding number of XP points of skipped lessons, not only 20 points.
I am surprised that nobody from Duolingo has chimed in at all on these threads, or replied to any of the Facebook comments. I just wrote an app store review and a Facebook comment after getting a "thanks for your feedback" as a reply to my direct email. I just bought Plus a month ago... Our local library has Mango Languages and Transparent Language. Maybe it's time to try out the other options.
It was nice to have more points for demonstrating faster knowledge improvement. Duolingo is not the only source for learning a language and I like going between different sources. Anyway, it is not the end of the world. Duolingo is still pretty good despite some weaker areas. It is also still free
Duolingo, I am a newer user of this platform.
The entire appeal of this service is the game and leveling function.
You took away my favorite part of this service.
Looking at the other comments it seems like you make a universally hated choice.
Please put away any pride you have and listen to your userbase.
I was in the process of trying out different things and gathering footage about what I've observed on the board correlating XP level to language knowledge - and then the rules were changed. I decided to abandon my plan and I published the following video instead.
This is actually the first of three videos. The third, more detailed video is on my editor now. For the time being, I'm going to look for a tutor, work on my grammar book (which was my original goal), and possibly check out Duolingo Stories. (I'd been avoiding them due to low XP.)
In recent weeks, it was pretty much 100% Duolingo, but now - thanks to the update - I will be following a broader approach.
Edit: I've been trying to keep up with this thread but due to the large number of posts, I'm going to have to unfollow it. I'm still interested in any thoughts people have on my individual posts here. I'm going to be following under this thread instead.
Imagine that one Duolingo user only does the individual exercises where he is tested on a few words and a small subset of grammar skills at a time and gets to redo repeatedly the sentences in which he'd made mistakes. Now imagine another user who takes extra time to learn the vocabulary and master the grammar, so that he profits more by taking the tests which feature broader vocabulary and grammar skills. But the way the system is set up now, it's the first user who'll earn plenty of points to get to Level 25 rather than the second one. Where is the logic in this?
The logic is clear. More rewards to the one seeing more ads and therefore bringing Duo more money! What doesn't fit in this logic is applying the change on the paying Plus users too.
There are many games where the goal is to have the smallest score. Golf for example. Is it not possible to take pride in getting a gold tree in the FEWEST number of points you can? To show you were able to show proficiency much quicker. More hole in ones so to speak?
Yes, but the golf players know it before starting the game. The problem is starting a football match and trying to get the highest score, and in the midle getting the golf sticks and being told to suddenly score the least possible.
True, but also, for people who already started, as of this minute they have the golf advantage. They have completed much of the trees they are using and are able to restart and play golf. The people already done, look at it and say, "I was playing football" and let it be as is. Kinda a "back in my day" sorta thing.
My only point with any of that particular comment is to show, it is all about framing. I would never think about it in that way, but there are multiple ways to look at something and think of alternatives, and reasonings for things to be different than our preconceived notions.
I hate this new update, I am also learning spanish in a class and use this as a supplement, I loved being able to be rewarded for already knowing content instead of being punished by loosing out on so many points. (Duo if your listening at all you will reverse this update)
Looks like I'm not the only one who noticed this BAD change! Duolingo is so repetitive that to me test-out is almost mandatory to keep learning at a comfortable pace. We should be rewarded for learning quickly, lol!
I'm with Duolingo since last Dec. and loved it but with this change it's not the same! I'm not motivated anymore...like it has been said before it's no point in doing the same thing throughout 20 lessons when you could test out and get all the points in one shot. Especially when the lessons have the same sentences anyway. It's definitely getting boring after a while....but when I only get 20 XP for doing an entire level it really sucks! It feels I'm getting nowhere at all! :-( Very demotivating!!!!!!
Quote from Anniebetty: "Ever notice all the ads in the margins? If you have to go through all the lessons, theoretically you are exposed to a lot more ads ... and Duo makes money off of ads, I reckon." I'm actually a Duolingo Plus member and it's the same. As I have paid for it now I will stay until my membership ends but afterwards I will change to another one if it stays like this....such a shame!
I noticed this when I was testing out of a lesson at work. I thought it was a bug. Tried it again. Same thing. 20 lousy points for a 120 point test. I tried at home last night. 20 points for a 270 point test. This really sucks.
Earlier this year, my goal was to advance my German and Italian to level 25 and get all level-5 trees this year. Since the update, this goal is no longer possible for me. I will have to spend so much time in a single skill to get to level 5 without the test-out. There is too much repetition than necessary. Test-out without cap used to help me to learn in a fast pace and keep me motivated. I used Duolingo like a gaming App everyday. Now the fun is gone and I am not motivated to use Duolingo anymore. If Duo were going to keep the cap, soon you would lose another customer.
I am aware that the Duolingo Team work very hard - thank you. However, I do not like this new update at all. Not only is the XP test out cap demotivating but I have also lost both my Golden Owls. Please Duolingo Team, can we go back to the old system?
I dislike the XP cap as well, I do duolingo as a class requirment and would do a quick test to get the required daily amount. Now that they added the cap, I have to do all of the skill lessons to get the equivelent XP and then I would still have to do some more after that as well.
Whoa, guys! There are ups and downs to this change, not just downs.
The problem is that changing to crowns made getting XPs a LOT easier and so cheapened their value. With five passes through each tree, there are now lots of opportunities to test out and reap a ton of XPs from topics that you've mastered, even if you're not looking for technical cheats for the Android leagues. FWIW, I always do at least a quarter of the lessons in a module before testing out of the rest, but with 40+ lessons in some high level modules I'm still testing out of a lot. In turn, that has made being at level 25 a lot less satisfying. The rollouts of new trees in several languages (e.g. Spanish and for some users French) with users losing crowns in the process and gaining them back in a hurry, with XP gain to match, made the problem even worse. So something had to be done.
Still, I can't say that this is the right fix. 20 XPs for testing out of 30 lessons (after patiently doing 15 by hand!) seems stingy. But that's quibbling over details. Overall, I'll withhold judgment until I've seen what else they're doing with the rewards for achievement.
Finally, please don't eliminate the XP system altogether. After several years of work in multiple languages, I'm on track to hit level 25 in my weakest language (Hebrew) later this month. Please don't take that away from me!
It's definitely not possible to get to Level 25 with this new system unless you sit down and do every single lesson from Crown 0 to Crown 5 without testing out. Just as an example, I went through the Chinese tree, which has 3,408 total lessons divided into 88 skills. To get to Level 25 from scratch takes 30,000 XP. That means in a tree with 88 skills and 3,408 total lessons, you have to do almost every single lesson individually to reach Level 25. In the current method of awarding 20 XP per test out, you would not make it to Level 25 if you did every single lessons from Crown 0-4 and test out of Crown 5.
And most trees don't even have 88 skills and 3,408 lessons, most have fewer than that.
Honestly, it's not worth it now to get 25 and I'll just shoot for golden tree and leave it at Lv 18
It sounds as if you think you are not allowed to practice anymore after reaching five crowns. That's not true, of course, so there's absolutely nothing stopping you from reaching level 25 in any course. Without doing anything more than the first lesson, even.
That's not really true. I see you're level 24 in German, which has 121 skills. In German I'm currently going from 3 crowns to 4, and a typical skill has about 12-15 lessons in it. So that's somewhere between 14,500 and 18,000 XPs just for getting the 4th crown. I estimate that getting to level 25 from scratch requires about 3.5 crowns on the German tree. Probably more like 4 on the Spanish and Hebrew trees. (Hebrew is shorter, with only 84 skills, but they pack a lot of lessons into each module.) Ditto for the version of the French tree that I'm on. My smallest language is Italian, with only 66 skills, which means about 40K XPs for 5 passes through the tree, with about a third of those coming on the last pass. Doing the first four passes and testing out of the fifth with the new cap would probably put you right at the threshold for Level 25.
The bottom line is that getting to level 25, which is the pinnacle of success for levels, is in the same ballpark as getting a golden tree, even with no repetition and no extra points for things like Duolingo Stories. Makes sense to me.
I'm not concerned with my German tree to be honest (I'm literally 200 XP away from level 25 with over 40 skills that I haven't taken from Level 4 to Level 5 yet), but even still, it has 121 skills which is far more than any other course. Contrast that with Chinese, where I'm also level 24 but 3000 XP away from Level 25, and only 20 Skills which I need to take from Level 4 to Level 5. If I tested out of those 20 skills, like I was planning, I would only get 400 XP and still be 2600 XP away from Level 25. In the old system, testing out of those 20 skills would have brought me to level 25.
I think the German tree in general is pretty unique in that it is extremely thorough and has a lot of skills as well as a lot of lessons per skill. In the Chinese tree, to go from Crown Level 3 to Crown Level 4 has around 9 lessons on average, which equates to only 8,000 XP for 88 skills.
The bottom line is that getting to level 25, which is the pinnacle of success for levels, is in the same ballpark as getting a golden tree, even with no repetition and no extra points for things like Duolingo Stories. Makes sense to me.
Exactly, and like I said in the previous post, now that testing out only gives you 20 XP instead of the equivalent XP of doing all the lessons, it is no longer possible to get to Level 25 unless you actually do each lesson individually and don't test out ever.
I'm not quite sure what everyone's problem is here! Surely the reason we are all here is to learn a language...not to get the maximum number of points for doing so. Whether you get 250 points for testing out of level 5 or only 20 points, your learning is still the same, so what's the problem? Are you here to improve yourself or win a meaningless competition? If it's competition you crave, why not play a sport?
This whole thing runs on little reward based dopamine hits. It’s worth complaining about when DL makes decisions that undermine its own model.
Agreed. Though it's interesting seeing the breakdowns occur. I saw at least a couple comments of [paraphrasing] "I'm not going to bother learning a language if I don't get my points". It's kind of fascinating and I think shows to some degree the "addiction" people can form to the service. I don't mean that in a real positive or negative way towards the users, just an interesting observation.
Really? I haven't seen many of them and I have read this whole thread several times (procrastination). Nobody is saying they'll stop learning a language, people just consider leaving Duolingo. That is extremely different. If the gamification people like disappears, then why not opt for a non gamified coursebook only and not the non gamified second rate language courses on Duolingo?
People quitting a useful language learning app because they only get 20xp instead of 200+xp leaves me with no hope that they would continue their language learning journey without the prospect of some artificial reward. Otherwise what's the point of leaving the app? You still get more xp rewarded with the app than without.
I can understand complaining about the change. I personally don't really care one way or the other, but I still believe the old way is a better system IF it were not for the abuse of it in leagues. This doesn't change my opinion that many people are, clearly, overly addicted to their internet points (which is also a problem with leagues).
Either the app is useful for learning, so you complain about it but use it regardless of the xp situation (I can understand this viewpoint)...or the app is not useful, in which case why use it at all even if they were to give you 10,000xp. However, I don't understand the viewpoint of "this app is useful but I'm going to quit using it because I only get 20xp".
I don't care about the xp. I also don't think leagues contributes very much toward the learning process. Clubs should be brought back and revamped to encourage more participation. Create a "league" like system that relies on club participation rather than xp gained from lessons. Maybe give 1 (or a small number) point per lesson completed to go towards your club score, rather than using xp. Testing out would still count as 1 league/club point since it's the same amount of time as doing 1 lesson. People could still have XP which would contribute towards their language level but not affect this club/league hybrid. Then set xp for testing out back to its previous amounts. A setup like this would contribute more towards learning as people would be practicing their target language more with other people within the clubs, and everyone that "needs" it could still have their precious xp. If I were in charge of Duolingo that's what I would implement...but I'm not.
I see your point, but I think it’s important to keep in mind that there is a tremendous variety of situation and ability among learners. Many of us wish to learn on an intellectual level, yet suffer from motivation issues. Seeking out platforms that passively remedy that, and advocating for their continuation once we’ve found them, are quite logical behaviors. You say addiction, and in a way you’re correct, but it’s an addiction some of us have consciously chosen to cultivate in an effort to circumvent our own weaknesses.
I predate the test-out feature, which is perhaps why my disappointment is milder than some, but there are certainly things Duo could do that would cause me to leave the platform in favor of other resources. Eliminating XP altogether, for example, would take away much of the shine. For me, Duo’s lure is the ability to quantify my investment, even if the measure is abstract.
People keep coming back from their better coursebooks and other tools to Duolingo to get some gamified practice. This is the kind of users that is complaining. They are not likely to leave the other resources. But we are likely to leave behind Duolingo.
The gamification has been useful during the times of lower motivation to help review and cover the gaps, and to keep continuity. That's what might be lost.
Duolingo's value consists of two parts: the content and the gamification. If you remove the gamification, you'd have to improve the content considerably to keep the quality. Without the gamification, Duolingo will be just a mediocre course and a part of the learners will go to the competitors who don't even pretend to be gamified.
Without gamification, Duolingo is simply not that useful.
People quitting a useful language learning app because they only get 20xp instead of 200+xp leaves me with no hope that they would continue their language learning journey without the prospect of some artificial reward
Exactly. And as DL only takes you to the end of the beginning that leaves thousands of hours of study with NO XP! So I guess, these people never intend to get a language to the point where it is useful, let alone gain fluency.
I've learnt a few languages to the C2 and C1 level. I've been using Duolingo on the A2/B1ish level, during the times in which the gamification was helping me stick to at least some review despite being busy and exhausted. The Xp and testing out were helping me compete with myself, the levels have been a way to keep doing at least this tiny exercise despite the circumstances. There are times at which I don't need this (and don't go to Duolingo instead of the more serious resources) and the more difficult times, during which I might miss this tool. And it looks like many people are in a similar situation.
The content is in some trees quite good, in others, not that much. Combined with the gamification, Duolingo can be rather useful. Without it, it doesn't have that much value. And that is the truth since the beginning. People are not quiting an awesome tool because of a few xp points. People are considering quiting, because one integral half of the product is being changed a lot and has been changing a lot during the last year or so. Especially as the changes seem to be clearly motivated by cash, people are being pushed to view more and more ads (you see an ad for every lesson and just one for the whole test out). So it is a bit like xp is not a reward for your time but more for the ads you view.
So, I think anyone saying stuff like you've repeatedly said on this thread and disrespecting people who just dislike an unannounced change to the gamification mechanisms, is just arrogant and ignorant. You know nothing about your fellow learners. You've been explained by various people many times, why your views are too narrow. Perhaps you should think about it for a while.
DL is not the only language app or indeed the only language resource. The app (or rather the website, because that is what I use) is no longer useful to me if it loses its gamey approach. As many others explained better than me, sometimes you just lack the motivation to do a lesson - for some, the high number of XPs gained in test-outs was motivational.
Most people that want to leave are not going to give up learning the language, they're just going to leave DL.
Then why have XP at all? If people shouldn't be worried about how much XP they are getting, then that should mean XP isn't important, and therefore isn't necessary.
Sure. But in that case, let's drop Duolingo completely. Duolingo is a mix of gamification and useful, but far from the best, content. If we drop the gamification, then suddenly content will be the only thing with which Duolingo will compete against other learning products. And it is highly unlikely to win. We don't need Duolingo to learn a language, it is a fun and somewhat useful small piece of it. But if the advantages are removed, why stay here at all? :-)
I agree with the change. How many people test out losing no hearts at all? Repetition is key to language learning. By testing out you can miss out on really solidifying your knowledge. Duolingo have got it right by still letting people test out but not encouraging it by linking it with a massive increase in XPx.
Honestly, they should let people decide that by themselves. Personally, I don't need to do all lessons to ingrain the knowledge seeing as each lesson is limited in its knowledge in a degree that would make taking each lesson individually extremely repetitive and mind numbing. It was better back with people training and then deciding if they got it, or not. Leveling a skill up to 5 would take an eternity. At least that is my personal opinion on that.
You are correct. By allowing the faster learners the opportunity to get to the next level sooner, they provided a motivation which this policy negates. If I've just reached level 24 in my Norwegian, and see I have over 3500 XP to get to the 25 max out---and I know I can get there by cutting through the wasted repetition... Why shouldn't I... instead of being forced to trudge through over 350 lessons just to reach the next level... it's ridiculous and I think it's the slower learners cheering it on.
Agreed. XP does not reflect how much you have learnt. What surprises me is they brought the league competitions in at all. I'd love to test some of the high flyers two months apart and see how much they have actually learnt in that time ie new material that is retained over time.
Isn't that none of your business, no offence meant?
And that's the problem. With these leaderboards (and especially with the functionality of moving to the next league etc), Duolingo has suddenly made people wonder how are the others learning. Why should anyone care? That is the problem of the "high flyers", whether they learn something or not. The most obvious cases that could be called cheating (like the numerous restarts of the tree) could be solved without discouraging other learners.
Without any leaderboard or with just the very easy going one on Duome, people cared about their own learning. But now, people want to test other learners, wth? People are suddenly interested in how many points did another learner get and whether they have earned them enough, that is crazy. And people are, perhaps unintentionally, calling for discouraging the better learners, just like back in school.
I'd bet a lot of those "high flyers" are people with rusty skills or not true beginners, who just want to practice a bit in a fun way. Of course they'd use a more advanced resource even for this, but there are simply few on the market. Everyone is focusing on the beginners. So, these people come to Duolingo, use it fast, get a lot of points, move on. Why should anyone else care? Really, the leaderboards (as they are now) are an extremely bad part of this community.
@Mereade - You have hit the nail on the head. That is exactly the problem - people started minding other people's business and demand explanations for their progress. Explanations that they then refuse to accept, because it would invalidate their premise that they are smarter and therefore if someone else gets ahead of them, they MUST be cheating. God forbid they admit, even to themselves, that they are not the smartest person in the room - in this case, the smartest person on Duo, or that there are other people who are simply better at learning languages and do not need to trudge through the same lesson a hundred times in order to understand it and remember it.
I honestly think that even if you showed them proof of that, they would still be looking for another explanation.
Take Judit here - when I pointed out that I have spent a lot more time here than she did (which was one of her arguments in favor of the cap), she countered with ''Yeah, but you are not learning Hungarian'', in other words, you are not as smart as me, because I am learning a difficult language. Never mind that the definition of ''difficult'' or ''easy'' language differs from one person to the next, because what is difficult for me might be a piece of cake to you. It seems impossible for her to grasp that other people learn differently, they have different motivations and indeed sometimes they are better at learning languages - or have backgrounds allowing them to absorb difficult grammar concepts quicker. A person that has studied languages all their life will breeze through any of Duo's courses, including Hungarian, simply because they have a better grasp on how to approach language learning in a way that is fit for them.
She boasts doing immersion every year, which presumably should have put her waaaay ahead of other users and waay past Duo's course, but on the other hand she berates those who are advanced learners, telling them to go someplace else for learning, because Duo is just for beginners.
As one of those "high flyers" (a naturally fast learner who is testing out because I've gilded two of my trees before the Levels-->Crowns transition and I know a second language), this is my personal results using Duolingo to learn a language I had never had before (forum.duolingo.com/comment/30911365)
(Note: the number of readers is up to 32 the last that I checked.)
I agree. This is super frustrating. I've had to restart my progress three times now because of Duolingo updates. The least they can do is reward me with the proper XP.
I just got back from work today and wanted to test out of a few skills because I noticed I was lagging behind in my club's leader board. I usually tend to save the last few levels for test outs so that I can cash in a bunch of points all at once (I'm kinda competitive, so you can take that into consideration as well). Anyway, I thought it was a bug or something, or that maybe I had somehow miscounted how many lessons I actually had left. I had no idea this was actually such a big issue right now. People have been saying that it's a motivating factor, and it really is. Otherwise, I'm testing out of skills just to be a completionist, but other than extra practice with those skills (which is still my ultimate goal, don't get me wrong) it isn't really worth it.
Today, though I was bummed about getting only 20 points, I still did a few test outs. I didn't feel as motivated to do as many as I might, but that's not really a problem. I don't need more xp points or crowns or to level up. But, I also did a normal lesson -- which was only going to be worth 10 points because there was only one test. The first thing I noticed was that there were clues and a word bank. It was much less challenging than had there been a test out option, regardless of point values. If only 20 points are awarded for testing out, then some users might find it easier to do the lessons. However, though it might take longer, I'm not sure that it's possible to show that this will be more efficient or that achieving proficiency would be facilitated --i.e., achievement not based on points or crowns. Different beginners will use the application differently in any case.
I see, so this explains why it became so hard to move up from one level to another. Anyhow, maybe the following should be considered, too. If the aim is to have users spend more time here in order to get more XP, for those who are not scared to be bored to death, there is an easy solution: practise the very first level of your trees over and over again. It is totally useless, extremely boring, but it will reward the same amount of points as testing out in roughly the same amount of time.
As for me, just like several others, I'm not here to learn but rather to test what I learnt elsewhere, or should know already. I will just disregard XP and levels from now on (in particular I will drastically reduce my practice).
It’s not a bug, but a feature. Well, that is what I got from the response I got on my query yesterday from support!?
Here’s the official answer: "Earlier, we implemented a feature where users could level up in a skill and receive a large amount of XP. To make this more fair for all users, we are now limiting the maximum amount of XP you can earn from the following:
Testing out of a skill: 20 XP Section or Checkpoint Test-out: 50 XP Placement Tests: 100 XP
We understand that this change can throw off some users, so happy to share any feedback with the appropriate team."
I, as of yet, still have to write a proper reply. Rest assured: I believe that a real effort to learn a language, deserves rewarding!
I think that in order to protest against the new restriction of points, when key is used, I will work on duo only for twenty points maximum per day in the following days.
Only twenty minutes maximum on duo per day.
Restriction of points = restriction of time on duo. There are other sites...
I was going to start Japanese seriously, but I have some prior knowledge which means I'll probably drag the bird out and cook it if I try to do it without testing out. So yes, I'll maintain the bare minimum of 20xp a day, and study Japanese elsewhere.
I haven't used the discussion part of Duolingo before but does it feel like they will retract this change? I am not able to fit multiple lessons a day and doing a single test will benefit me more but it would feel like my hard work will be erased as doing individual lessons are always easier than doing a test.
The XP cap is unfair! Duo Team is in there! Standing at the concession! Plotting our oppression!
The xp cap is because of leagues, people were farming it, so what if you keep the xp as always and then create something like "League points" that has a cap. I preferred to make a test out each day because i liked it, now I have to do 3 tests a day.
Wanting to make money is ok. That's how most societies run. Forgetting about everything else and just focusing on the money though; that's not great.
@compsognathus, agreed, wanting to make money is ine, but they way duo is going about is disgusting
I was just testing out last night and thought to myself "Whoa, 20 points? What a bargain." Sounds like I'm happily working for peanuts these days. Ignorance is bliss.
It's definitely a move to get more ad revenue, while they figure out a monetization model that works. They should offer translators, alphabet cheat cards (for foreign alphabets) and other USEFUL tools for a small price. Getting rid of ads for $7/mo? No thanks.
It is demotivating. They should have at least ditched levels at the same time... the 25 goal now feels far away unless it changes :( Also not really fond of the idea this is probably tied to "leagues" since I'm not into competitive language learning.
I do guess one good thing out of this is that it motivated me to work on my Anki deck that I been meaning to add stuff to tho.
This was a shock and a disappointment for me. I am an old Duolingo user, who put it away for a while as I really got bored. I picked it up again this year, and it was very motivational to be able to test out skills and get nice amounts of points. The time I spent practicing the language, which I need for every day life, has increased, and it was fun. Since “discovering” that I get so many points less for testing out, I lost my motivation. Now instead if going through the topic, or even multiple topics in one day, I seem to have resorted in just doing one simple lesson not to lose my streak.
I hope “they” will rethink this again. Some of the topics I am very familiar with, having lived in the country for a few years, but I still need to improve my vocabulary and grammar, and that is what duolingo was helping me with - spend half an hour or so every day thinking about what and how to say. I maybe failed the test-out skill a couple of times, but otherwise I do know the answer and I need help to fix the rules and words in my head instead of just blurting out wrong grammar/wording in everyday conversations.
I honestly only tested-out for the first time the other day, and I was surprised how much xp I got. I felt like I was cheating or something because all of a sudden I was #1 leaderboard and had the 200xp achievement, and I've been used to the 10xp per lesson or however much for ages. I'm OK with this update but I understand why it's frustrating for people that are used to getting a lot higher xp.
à tommy ;) What's frustrating (rather annoying) is not knowing that the rules of the game have changed .... and everyone is wondering "what? What's going on?" ... Duo is become stupid and bad? ;)
(excuse-me, my english is so bad, j'ai fait une traduction google :-(
Change is inevitable friendly little tit. We all seek change and change seeks us. Your awareness should be commended. Not that a commendation really matters in the end.
I just tested out of a German lesson, the last lesson in the skill, I should have gotten 480 XP because I was able to learn and retain the information well, and Duo gives me a measly 20 XP. Hate this new update!
Today I received 0xp for completing a test out. Maybe it is time to move to another platform...
believe it or not, this crap gets even worse. went for a test out today- got 10 XP. that's right, 10. exactly what you get for doing one practice run. that's pretty appalling imo.
they've crossed the line one two many times.
@Snorkelton: I tried that out. For Testing out of a 3-lesson-unit (worth 30 XP) and a 2-lesson-unit (worth 20 XP) I got 20 XP each according to the last stupid update .
Then I searched for a 1-lesson-skill - and found one. The Test-Out of the 1-lesson-skill (worth 10 XP) was awarded 10 XP. This is sort of weird, you are right, because Testing Out is a lot more difficult.
In Japanese, it's starting to give me 0 points for testing out, I've already been cheated thousands of XP because of this blasted XP cap!
"@MichaelWoo414297 It is unfortunate that this thread seems to have died out. There are several mentions that the devs don't listen or care, but that is likely because everyone just accepts changes, even bad ones, after a few days. If they get consistent feedback over several weeks that might change. Consider emailing support and using the in app feedback to share your thoughts on the Test-Out XP Cap. It is easy to ignore a user forum, but less so to ignore hundreds of support emails."
As I wrote in a previous post, I see it as a strategy. It happened before and it will happen again, because it works well. I would like to know how many psychologists DL pays for this purpose.
What happens is:
DL wants to make an update which downgrades many users and therefore users are not going to appreciate at all.
The wanted and planned effect for DL is to have higher revenue through ads.
Now what is the way to calm down the users?
You wait one week to let the first protest grow.
Then you make a seemingly helpful DL post pretending you care and pretending you want to integrate the users ideas into coming updates.
So hundreds of users do a brainstorming.
And now what you have to do is just : WAIT.
All the users who have posted something soon will feel molested by the hundreds of mails they receive. So, after a couple of days they decide to "not follow the discussion" any more.
A short while later they have another look at tthe thread - and what they see is discouraging.
Many further posts - and the problem persists.
What comes next:
The users can decide now whether they can get used to it, or if they decide to protest against the deterioration and from now on use an ad blocker, or if they decide to leave DL.
I hope, MichaelWoo, your post encourages many users to become active and motivate DL to think of better methods to increase income than by stupid changes like the crown-update and the XP-cut for testing out.
WOW. 100 Lingots in just 50 minutes. Thanks. It shows me that there is still activity in the thread.
Ooops, needed too long to explain, lol, yep, but different activity than you might think ;), it's more a statement.
Q "Du wirst gleich einen Lingot vergeben. Magst du diesen Kommentar auch wirklich?"
A Hell yea!!! I couldn't have say it better!
I tossed you the hundred lingots not because I think you really need them, you probably have gazillions of them, but as a sign for DL that they can shove them up their - uhmmm - updates.
You nailed it again, and so did MichaelWoo.
Since my 526 or so streak loss after They already took away progress in all languages I made sure that I will never build up a 1+ streak again, I didn't make the bets anymore and I started learning on other websites, mainly just by listening to well done MP3s on 50languages. With well done I mean excellent audio and you get a complete sentence first in your own language and then two time in the target language. Also most, if not all language are offered in from out your own language if you are not a native english speaker. If you do that and bundle it with grammar from other courses you can quite easily test out on DL without going through the single lessons one by one. The most positive result is that you actually train speaking and daring to speak the new language. It's actually more fun and easier to do than having all that virtual gimmick fun on DL. Tossed 2000+ Lingots and freed me from what they actually praise as addiction. Only thing left where the XP which were important for me for motivation to reach my goal for the Bucket List, which was finishing 3 languages on DL, say getting level 25. Since I am realist and know the average life expectancy I figured that spending less time on DL means having more fun and less aggravation, which is another goal. Since the updates DL is conflicting with those goals. Probably not enough time and sure not enough fun and I will sure not worsen the arthritic pain in my hands by clicking and typing myself through stupidly repetitive lessons. BTW, I exclusively learn via the website and I never saw a single advertisement. I also read a comment to the XP-cap somewhere on DL and this user said he disables advertisements by setting his phone into battery safe mode when using the DL app.
@grumpy: Danke vielmals. Jetzt habe ich einige der Lingots zurück, die ich in den letzten Tagen vergeben habe. Ich hatte ja die Hoffnung, dass DL sich ein paar der Posts mit vielen Lingots anschaut - und vielleicht doch noch reagiert, drum habe auch ich tonnenweise Lingots vergeben. Aber leider sieht es nicht danach aus.
As I am now looking for alternatives for DL and in order to optimize my lifetime balance (I guess my motivation is similar to yours, grumpy .... ) : you were talking about 50languages. Seems interesting. I have not tried it yet, but I will. I tried memrise for Kurmanci. But it did not really work for me. I tried LEO. That seems a good alternative.
So - whoever knows alternatives that are worth to be tested - please post. Thanks.
Leo is one of my most regularly visited websites. Weird enough I do use it to translate words, look up grammar and sometimes participate in the discussions, but never considered taking courses. I wasn't even really aware of that possibility. So thanks for suggesting that. I even will test out the app, I think LEO is a serious enough provider to give it a try. 50languages is awesome for just starting, listening while walking the dogs or doing home/work or hobbies and babble along. LEO has all that 50L has lack on.
The chance that DL will listen to their users or to arguments is below zero. The only language they will listen to starts with an m and ends with oney.
No plea and no reason will beat the money that is targeted and involved. DL's XP and Lingots are dollars, so simple is that. They are good on the way too cap their XP too.
So, this has been like this for a while, with now come-back from Duolingo suggesting solutions or at least hearing the customers.
I am very upset. I have took the Plus membership in January, and was motivated by new system. I was not abusing it, I was progressing nicely. Since the change I have no interest in repeating the same sentences 20+ times to complete level. One thing I love as an outcome of the DL change is everyone sharing their other learning sources - i have not heard about quite a few of them, and this gives me option to explore the other learning methods that might suit me better. I haven't been exploring much before, as I was familiar with Duolingo and was ok with what was offered, even if not perfect.
So one outcome I see is people finding about other learning methods/services/applications and moving away from DL. Well done for reducing your customer base, Duolingo!
I'm not gonna lie here: I think this is a terrible implementation. Go ahead, Moderators, delete my posts because you can't bear reading about something your company has done that consumers dislike, but know only my absolute fury at the Duolingo management for this new update. I used to find it so satisfying, as well as motivating, to get through an entire skill in one lesson, and get so many points for doing so, and now I feel like I am missing out on all my points. Please, hear my cry and respond. Fellow members of the Duolingo Community, join me! Let's bring back the points!!
I've spent far more time - each day on Duo recently - partly because of the leagues, and partly because I've enjoyed getting up to level 4 - using the 'skills' test-out each day - one 'lesson' a day - it's amazing how sad it makes me feel to see only 20XP for testing out skills. It's probably going to take me a lot longer to get through the whole of the particular tree now.
What the people who are making a conscious decision to FORCE you to spend MORE TIME on their app, are achieving is that FEWER people will be doing it. I, for one have an unbroken streak of some 1,334 days, but I can assure you, that you mods, admins or whoever the he you are have done here is destroyed all motivation to get to that coveted 25 by lowering the points awarded for LESSONS COMPLETED..When I get 20 points, for skipping through 25 lessons (should be 250 points) I can tell you, I am PIed! I NO LONGER have that motivation to get to 25 because you have made it ridiculously more difficult to achieve!
Especially when all the lessons have the same sentences to translate anyway. No point in doing the same thing throughout 20 lessons when you could test out and get all the points in one shot.
Exactly. That's especially frustrating when some of the sentences are still broken and don't accept some correct answers.
I agree - I have been using the test out function a lot because I left DL for a while and wanted to get back up to the right level quickly - I set my minimum for 30 points per day but regularly average 300-500 over a week. If I'm only getting 20 points per test out, I find it disappointing and am less inclined to do more. Seriously considering going elsewhere.
I just did a test of 69 units (129 lessons)... Duo gave me 40 exp. Not really motivating when you have to choose between repeating a lesson you already know, or having extra points for your extra knowledge
Ever notice all the ads in the margins? If you have to go through all the lessons, theoretically you are exposed to a lot more ads ... and Duo makes money off of ads, I reckon.
What they're going to get, I can assure you, is FEWER people spending LESS time. I know I will.
Don't you think Duolingo has expenses? It's great that we can use it without paying for it, but according to an article from TWO YEARS AGO they were spending $42,000 a DAY in operating costs.
About a year ago, Duolingo CEO Luis von Ahn announced that the company would start experimenting with ads and optional in-app purchases to figure out how each would impact app usage and the financial health of the company. At the time, von Ahn said that Duolingo was spending about $42,000 per day on its servers, employees and other operating expenses, a number that has surely increased over the last year or so.
42k daily isn't too much to create their 40.000 000 revenue from 2018 . There is still 25.000 000+ left for paying all those volunteers and users that still work/ed free for DL, wouldn't you think?
The more normal users, let's say you and me, pay generously for that service with their data and clicks, online hours, their contribution to the stats that give the company more value.
Advanced users were used for translating articles for which DL earned 4cents/word. Volunteers, who actually created DL's full lesson content, are still not payed.
From an article from 2014 (!!!) on https://www.foxbusiness.com/features/duolingo-gets-users-to-translate-buzzfeed-articles Quote:"“Instead of translating fictional phrases, users are translating interesting articles and speeches,” says Gotthilf." ... "Currently, Duolingo is translating over 1,000 articles per day. As Duolingo adds more media partners, Gotthilf says the company will look to translate more than 40,000 articles on a daily basis." ... "Duolingo spokesperson Gina Gotthilf says at this point only web users (20% of Duolingo’s user base) can participate in the news-article translations. And she says 10% of the 5 million web users are actively translating articles. " Do the 4cent per word math.
All that brought the company a value of 700 Million ! Dollar.
And what about this: ""The hardest thing about learning anything by yourself is staying motivated, which is why we decided to turn it into a game .... we added a lot of little things to get you addicted to learning." O-tone Luis van Ahn, co-founder and CEO of DL. Awesome! and when the users are addicted enough to stay, in order not to loose all they worked for, hundreds of hours and many nights, he takes it away, step by step, crown by crown, lingot by lingot, streak by streak and xp by xp. All in the name of fairness and improvement. Improvement for whom? I am demotivated and deaddicted and disappointed.
You can do that with addicts, they will just stay and work harder and longer and most will "adapt" and get used to it and some even will defend it.
Yep, that IS capitalism from it's finest. Fine with me when they earn golden noses when they stick to the deal, and also pay those volunteers for their huge contributions, problem is they don't.
They could instead of removing the reward of testing and skipping whole lessons is rewarding extra (0-5)XP to 10XP on browser like in the Android app, we already missing out on a lot of lingos by skipping lessons. So let us be! They also removed the skipping features on Android App for those who don't pay.
Yes, exactly! It kind of scares to see how much this has impact on my mood today
@caleb.wallace: I have not seen any Duo answer up to now.
This strengthens my hypothesis that the discussion threads initiated by Duo follow the strategy to install pressure relief valves. And once the pressure is reduced, people get tired of protesting and after a while they give up.
Ursulias, omg yes. This is EXACTLY what is happening. They are hoping we are just going to go away. WE WILL ALL GET USED TO IT. Getting 'used' to it has created some of the worlds greatest problems
I completely agree. The appeal of Duolingo is that it combines learning with a sort of game. We are all here of our own free will and should have the right to enjoy this in the way we all like. We are not fifth graders in school who have to be forced to study each lesson. If a person feels that he is better served by testing out of a lesson — and if he PASSES A TEST — then he or she should not be "punished" for it by receiving a smaller reward in the end.
Totally agree. You described how I felt, as if was forced to go back to school. If I already spent five years at school learning French and three more at a language school, why I am forced to go through all the lessons? I still remember a lot of things. Knowledge is dormant, but it still there, even 28 years after giving up on French.
I totally agreeee!!
I don't like the leagues, I like to see my own progress. I like to challenge myself with testing out levels because I know the basics of German and it helps me get closer to what I am currently learning at school.
It is very disappointing to get 20xp after a session to be honest
As a moderator, I feel like I should clarify a few points, for our sake.
Moderators are not staff, we only tend to the forums. So it's not our company any more than it's yours.
Moderators don't delete posts unless they violate the guidelines. Your post won't go anywhere unless you are disrespectful or start spamming us with offers for cheap Canadian meds.
If you posted this in a sentence discussion, you could expect it to be deleted, since it would be very off topic. But this is the place to discuss such things, so carry on ;)
Thanks for clarifying that and taking the time to moderate the forums.
I've been on Duolingo for about five years now. I really liked it when skills didn't stay gold. That's how I decided what to practice and it was perfect for me. I'm still hoping they reimplement that feature. Until then, I'm still using it to practice my Spanish.
Daniel, I'm at a little over 5.5 years now and I wholeheartedly agree with you on the skills degrading and not staying gold. Removing that really reduced the effectiveness of the Duolingo system on retaining what we've learned.
I preferred that too. That way you were working on what skills might be falling behind, rather than repeating lessons just to get points.
Daniel, I think that they have to reimplement the feature too, reducing in 20 points each test wasn't a good idea. I believe that we've many other things to improve here, like the chat between students or the return of the activity mural in the profile. Communication, this is what DL needs to improve!
Thanks Daniel, do you know if they will? It seems to be meeting with a lot of backlash
Do You know how we can contact the stuff about this change in the XP gain as this is really causing me to lose my motivation for staying in Duolingo, and I believe others are feeling the same way?
Just for the record, I do not mind if the prior system of skill degradation will not come back, but then again after I complete a Duolingo course I either immediately start a new language or immerse myself further elsewhere in a language that I have learned (or as is often the case, both) so that particular change did not change anything for me except maybe for the obsessive need to make all of my skill trees entirely golden.
yea im right there with you. losing the massive amount of points from testing out doesnt bother me as much as losing the prior system of maintaining gold skills.
Thank you, I totally agree. I remember that it drove me crazy trying to keep my Swedish tree gold. I prefer having it gold all the time. I know what the next steps are to improving my linguistic skills, after having a gold tree and being at level 25. Duolingo used to offer higher-level learning with their "immersion" feature, but they did away with it. That was a big loss.
Hey, I prefer Canadian meds to expensive American ones. Otherwise, good responses :)
I think it is too, especially if it's true that it was implemented because of abuses on Andriod leaderboard leagues, which is a feature Duolingo indroduced and no user asked for. Now everyone's capped? Even those of us who were just using XP as a way to motivate ourselves and not to compete with other, but just to feel good about spending time on Duolingo.
Agree x 100!!
The main effect the change has had on me, is to drastically slow my progress.
How? Testing out is still possible. But you don't get rewarded for not doing all the lessons.
It is more motivating to learn with big XP points. Doing the Key Test feels rewarding because of big XP points. Getting barely any XP curbs motivation. This might sound silly, but that's the way it is.
Testing out is still possible, but possibly this way you don't even reach your daily goal by testing out. (And also, it is just so satisfying to see the orange circle spinning with points when you are done)
I agree. Honestly, I don't know why they continue to update things that don't agree with their users.
I still want Immersion back, I think crowns are stupid as crap, and, oh yeah, STOP GIVING ALL OF THESE BENEFITS TO APP USERS WHEN WE WEB USERS WERE THE OG DUOLINGUISTS!
@hanspersson I've been using DL on the web and on iOS. I'm lucky for I don't have the lousy gem and health system going on on my app. The app offers a "club" randomly chosen for you, where you can answer daily, repetitive robotic questions and chat with other members, and you earn 2XP whenever you post in your target language. There is a weekly winner on the club, based on XP, but it doesn't award you any extra XP, so that it's not that useful at all. Here is a list of the missing activities:
-no timed training.
-no forum/discussion, you have to google your mistakes to learn something.
-you don't get to see other's levels nor streaks, you can only see their total XP.
-You also don't see your own level.
-Test-Out is a mystery, I've seen it once for sure, but now it's gone.
San_0 didn't mention the android perk of the daily chest, (received after completing your daily streak) which gives you 1-5 lingots every day, which raises my lingot inflow 2-fold, and yours probably about 1.5-fold.
Why not just have everybody vote on matters such as this? For an update like this, I think that everybody on Duolingo (except Judit294350 lol) would agree, this update is utter crap!
Or just boycott them. They'll notice when plus is giving them even less money than before (which was near nothing, flof120271 you're like the .001%), and their web traffic all of a sudden plunges as all we do is our daily 5 minutes. Frankly, all I've been with Duolingo in the last 2-ish years (I count starting with Immersion being stripped from the site) is infuriated!!!!
If you do, please add a review explaining why you are giving it a bad rating. OTOH, a lot of us consider 1-star ratings suspect when we see the overwhelming number of ratings are 4 or 5 stars.
1-star ratings for stuff that lacks a significant number of 2- and 3-star ratings can typically be ignored as people who have an axe to grind for some reason.
Testing out even touched off a motivational spark in this 75 year old! Of course I'll keep plugging away but it sure is disappointing to trudge along at 20 XP at a time.
Exactly. I spent the time studying to earn those points. My bid problem is now maintaining my 'insane goal' streak when I have those super busy days
Agreed! Before, I would just test out and get 40-200 XP in one fell swoop, and now, I have to take so much time off of my day, especially on those dreaded Tuesdays, when from 2 PM- about 10:30 PM I have literally no time at all!
@Carolina @ kmpala - You guys rock! I hope I will be as motivated as you are to learn a new language in about 20-25 years :) You are an inspiration, to be sure!
Completely agree. Receiving so many points for leveling up a skill was highly motivating. Let's hope Duolingo listens to the community and revokes this change.
Yes, let's hope. But don't hold your breath. I've been around DL over six years and they rarely listen to their users' opinions. We don't know what motivated them to make this change -- some suggest that it forces users to view more ads. It doesn't seem logical that they should withdraw a motivating factor just because they are feeling "stingy" about rewarding users with XP...
They are possible for now, just discouraged on the website by this change. In the apps, the test outs are already restricted or impossible in some versions, and very expensive in others.
Now I am feeling ultra lucky that I didn't purchase Duolingo during its new year promotion.
Same here. I was more than tempted, but didn't like the perspective with the changes that they applied over the last few months (see my other posting, a bit further up). Now it seems my apprehensions have come true.
I am surprised how bureaucratic and arrogant Duolingo has become. With such a huge change they didn't even think about asking their users first or putting an announcement. I suspect they simply want to force long-time users out to make room for the newcomers, servers do cost:)
Well, why to ask users who never pay (and for servers as well!)? They just do things to force existing users to pay subscription - that's it! Easy... But in this case I will do what I did after Flickr forced people to pay for Pro subscription in case they want to store more than 1000 photos - I close account and find another solution :)
Trouble is, they foisted this change on paying customers too :) Just like they foisted the Crown change on paying customers without ever asking them whether they wanted it or not. If the idea behind this is to force users to pay, they are going about it all wrong, IMHO.
I don't understand the extreme backlash. Are people putting xp over actual learning that much? Perhaps that's a (partial) reason for the change. People testing out solely for the xp.
I think in all obviousness that testing out yielding an enormous amount of xp in a short amount of time is disproportional compared to taking the "normal" path. It might even work demotivational to those who take the "normal" path and also encourage others to do the same.
In the end what matters - or should matter most is learning. If the waterfall of xp hurts learning then it probably should go. I've also seen disproportional amounts of xp ruin for example a game in the past, as it rendered the achievement of reaching a high level practically null, with people feeling distraught because the thing they worked very hard for became something new members could reach in a heartbeat without much of an investment. And once the max level is reached it feels less rewarding and the skill is being tossed aside "because max level" rather than because one actually feels like they've mastered it.
Thus a waterfall of xp versus a more proportional amount, whatever yields the best results for learning is what should be.
At the higher levels in some languages, you have to do 20, 40, or even more lessons of what are basically the same exercises you've done before in order to get to the next colour level. It becomes boring and repetitive, and you learn nothing new, especially with the very beginner lessons (basic vocab.) So using the "test out" feature was a good way of overcoming that, while also finding out if you were doing well enough to make it through with four or fewer mistakes. Having the higher XP was another motivational feature.
Having said that, each language handled that a different way. In Swedish, to get to level 5 in some lessons, you could potentially get 400XP or more, whereas with German, the XP awarded was much lower. So that part makes no sense: there should be some sort of standard logic applied from one language to another.
Testing yourself (and testing out) and only getting 20 XP is annoying. So is doing 45 of some fairly boring and repetitive exercises, even if you would end up with 450 XP at the end.
Yes, I'm here to learn most of all, but they need to figure out a way of balancing the "reward" of a whole bunch of XP vs the true reward of acquiring a language.
I'm absolutely a proponent of having a test out of feature (which didn't exist for crown levels at release and for which I supported the suggestion of adding such a feature). I also support it giving an increased amount of xp, but it for example in some cases giving 40 x more xp is a different story.
I agree that there needs to be a balance between reward of xp and language learning, 20 xp might be just that.
I think 50 XP points for testing out is a fair compromise, The logic being that by testing out You actually show that You have mastered said skill enough to use it without the dictionary or any other help (besides maybe the grammatical tips at the beginning of the lessons) and so You should be able to at least complete Your daily streak by testing out of a skill.
If you take the test multiple times until you pass, that's called mastering the skill. XP is the most important aspect of Duolingo. I care about learning the language, but if I were using a flashcard program, I'd probably retain more than Duolingo teaches me, and I'll have more freedom to design my own curriculum. The only reason I use Duolingo is that the gamification makes it addictive and so makes me more likely to follow through on my language-learning goals. Without XP, Duolingo really isn't that superior a learning system.
@tsuj1g1r1: You are SO right-on. In fact, it is an inferior system for several reasons: there is no context, just translations of random sentences, there is no meaningful communication, there is no need to speak out loud, and nothing motivating users to try doing so. Also, the course builders and moderators are all volunteers, the 'Tips and Notes' sections are brief and sometimes non-existent, and our 'teachers' are often no more than fellow users in the sentence forums. Admin is distant and very, very seldom react to users' comments and suggestions; when they do it is only through moderators (I love you guys, if you are reading...). In the end, we are adults, no I should say we are individuals in charge of our learning process on Duolingo. If one person wants to level up quickly while another wants to translate the same sentences over and over until they have mastered them, let each do it their own way. But since Duolingo's only unique and attractive feature is its gamification, admin should make sure that users are being gratified on that level.
When I realized that I could get hundreds of points from testing out I started using Duolingo about half an hour a day. Prior to that I was using Duolingo about 5 minutes a day.
SAME! I actually spent SO much more time on Duolingo testing out, it made it more fun and rewarding for me. The past couple of days, I haven't even bothered. When you remove the fun/reward aspect of a site like this, fewer people will spend time on it, and those who do will spend less of their time.
It's not only the latest change, it's the fact that they seem to be - slowly but steadily - taking away the main motivation factors, here's the ones that I can think of right away:
- gain extra XP from timed practice: gone
- gain up to 15 extra XP per practice lesson by getting everything right: gone
- gain XP from testing out: gone
What's next? 5min pause between lessons? A malus for wrong answers? I just don't get it.
Very good points - let me just say that for iOS users they have already implemented the dreaded Health, which gives you a forced time-out if you make mistakes in lessons, so that is not so out-of-the-realm of possibility as you might think :(
I figure the day the put this crappy feature on the web version, I am definitely gone, because the site will bear absolutely no resemblance to the wonderful Duo I used to know and love.
OMG, really? so I see here another way of pushing people to pay for subscription - delete all nice features, implement pauses and punishments, which force people to wait or spend more time on free version, so people could theoretically decide "to pay 5 dollars but have all features working"... hmm... I guess in this case I will forget about Duo for another 3-5 years then and switch to other resources.
It doesn't look like DL is going to keep the Health system, though. Not everyone on iOS has it and I've seen reports on the forums, that for some iOS users, the app has changed to lingots. My impression is that that's not something we need to fear.
Don't forget the Immersion feature, which provided an opportunity to develop a community of serious language learners!
How could I forget? That was the reason why I learned Spanish so quickly and its removal was the harshest blow, not only because I lost a great way to learn, but also because I lost the opportunity to learn from more experienced users, who took the time to teach newbies like myself.
Yes, immersion was the ONLY feature that helped me improve in languages I'm already fluent in. It was really fun and useful, and builded community as Macjory said. I lost so many friends... and as far as for learning the basics of a language, if you lined up a hundred platforms and judged their relative effectiveness, Duolingo would probably place right near the bottom (for reasons I outlined in another comment above). The other apps, however, would probably not be free ones. Our library offers a wonderful platform called "Mango;" it's somewhat similar to Rosetta Stone. It's free for residents of San Jose. So, to summarize -- Duolingo's main attractions are the fact that it's free, and the fact that it's gamified. Since it's free we mustn't complain about its faults, but admin should listen to their users... and they never seem to do so. I'm still here, and still making my students use DL, but it may not be for much longer...
I agree with jairapetyan bellow this post. Duolingo is no longer that good, if we compare it with non free products. And if it pushes less and less freedom and individualisation in how it is meant to be used, it is soon gonna lose the main advantage of the the paper based courses too (most of those already win in the quality of content).
Duolingo is too easy and superficial to be fun and worthwhile at the slow rate or without the nice ego boots in form of exp, lingots, and so on.
It is not free, there are ads. Also, while the staff might not care about the opinions of the users at all, it would be at least polite and good PR to make a post about a big change and explain. Well, they didn't even announce the Leagues and their rules and everyone seems to be surprised people were breaking the unknown rules by using the normal functions of Duolingo. :-D
They also used to give lingots more freely as well, and there were a couple things they gave lingots for that they don't anymore, or they gave more for the ones they still have.
Not that there was anything you could spend the lingots on :))) Though I understand that the plan now is to pay lingots if you want to test-out, so maybe the worst is yet to come.
jairapetyan I totally forgot about the trumpet and fireworks fanfare, but now that you're reminding me of it, I really do miss it. You know what else I want back? The activity stream. Remember that? Back when you could actually chat with friends?
Yeah I've got nearly 9,000 lingots and I couldn't care less about that. But it's funny to learn that they are "getting stingy" about those too. Oh yes, I remember: they used to give you as many lingots as your new level whenever you leveled up! And they would play a little trumpet fanfare and show fireworks! Now nothing of that. You have to go to your profile to even know what level you're at now.
Perhaps for people who start the course from the beginning but for people who already finished the tree, it's pointless to do lesson per lesson to get larger amount of points, when you can just test out. Also it isn't "disproportional" because you have 3 lives and no help.
If you have finished the tree its probably time to move on to more appropriate sources of improving your language learning rather then staying here just to be getting points.
While you are right that one needs to move on, reviewing the basics is very useful. Around the A2/B1ish level, it can make a lot of difference. And the gamified motivation to review the harder stuff (for you harder, that is the magic) slowly and the easier stuff fast with a test out for the same points, that has been very useful. If people are not supposed to use Duo at the lower intermediate level, in combination with other stuff, or to simply review as we see fit, then why is it not saying so right away?
I don't disagree, but if you are not motivated by XPs, how does this concern you? Obviously quite a few people are motivated by XP, and removing an incentive to work cannot be a good idea. There's a part of narcissism in most of us, we should acknowledge it. It has good effects, it can help to learn faster.
Perhaps I could try and explain - I am not motivated by the XPs (or by the crowns, for that matter), but I must admit it was a great feeling when I could get a test-out and see 450 XP out of about five minutes, particularly if that 450 Xp was accompanied by a perfect record (i.e. no mistakes). It was gratifying, it was recognition of the work I have done so far - 25 lessons you tested-out of meant 250XP, which is basically 10 xp per lesson, it was exactly the same amount of XPs as for doing every single lesson - with one big difference, you didn't have to type the same sentence 100 times over. I still don't get how that was unfair to other users, since you did not get a premium for testing-out.
When they first introduced the Crowns, I spent one whole day trying to find the new content, in the bottom parts of the tree, not in Basics - I didn't find much, so that was really discouraging and the amount of time I spent on the site decreased dramatically after that. Then they introduced the test-out feature with a bonus of many XPs - I started spending more time and test myself. The bonus being gone now, I really have no motivation to come back to the site, because I already know all the lessons. It just comes down to habit, not pleasure or interest.
That's the second time I read something by Nardoel and say to myself, "He's right on." You too, Daffodil. Maybe someday they will bring immersion back... that is my hope.
A part of the question is whether they really are motivated by the xp to LEARN rather than just to level up. If people don't pay attention to the lessons because they just care about the xp, then there might be a problem.
I know of myself that there are situations in which I also pay less attention and as a result retain a lot less, thus perhaps the same applies to some when they get blinded by xp.
When my Italian reaches level 25 it won't be because I mastered it as good as back when my Portuguese reached level 25. Since a big part of my Italian xp is from testing out, thus having spent a lot less time on it. I don't think my Italian is as good as my Portuguese was when it was the same level. Those who reach level 25 with testing out simply won't be nearly as good at the language compared to those who didn't test out. The argument in this paragraph might not be relevant if the bonus xp does in fact improve learning (which probably is the central question when it comes to this issue).
You say "if people don't pay attention to the lessons because they just care about the xp, then there might be a problem" - the only problem I see is for those people alone and I think it's every learner's responsibility to make sure that they get the best learning opportunity. No system will ever be perfect in ensuring that everyone gets the best or most effective learning experience.
Furthermore, we shouldn't make generalizations based on our own experience. What works for me might not necessarily work for you and viceversa. But I think it is my responsibility (and mine alone) to make sure that the system I choose works for ME. And if I don't want to learn, I just want to chase XPs and compete for a bit of fun - I am not saying I do, but if I were - then the system shouldn't be adjusted to force me to learn.
Why would anyone care how I choose to use the system or whether or not I learn anything? I would assume that's entirely up to me and if I choose to waste time chasing XPs, then it is my loss, nobody else's.
@elvper - Yes and no. You say a part of the enabling can also be to protect people. Yes, it can, but no, in my opinion it shouldn't be. This is not welfare, it's not social assistance, it is a language learning system, that shouldn't care about anything else than offering a platform for people to learn. How people decide to use the platform shouldn't be regulated by the system.
If you want to make the argument that children also use the platform and they are the ones who need protecting, fine. Maybe they should have an adult-only and a child-only platform and apply different rules. But to tell me, an adult, that I need protection from myself so I can learn instead of dilly-dallying and gaining XPs at the expense of knowledge is frankly a bit offensive and I never cared for systems (even political ones) that tend to act like my parents and protect me from myself.
reply to elvper: Sorry, but given my years of experience, I know how to use a course for my benefit. And till recently, Duolingo has been giving me enough freedom to do so. Now, I cannot test out in my app, and I get discouraged from it on the website. It is very sad that a modern digital tool gives me less freedom and encouragement than a paper based coursebook. That one doesn't mind, whether I do chapter 3 faster and chapter 4 slower. The digital tools should be all about personalisation, just look at the good examples like Kwiziq.
You say: "The exact same thing can be said about the change, works for some and doesn't for some with it being the responsibility of people themselves to use it responsibly."
That's what most people have been doing. The few people abusing a fault in the design (those restarting the courses for easy exp from the entrance tests) could have been dealt with easily. First of all by communication of the rules of the leagues, secondly by a technical solution (like restarted courses not giving points). But tell me about a single person, who's learning has been improved by this change.
Really. The people in favour of this change have not seen any improvement in their own learning either. All their talk about is imposing their ideals on other learners and how happy they are that the faster learners won't get that many exp points. But no profit to their learning at all. Profit to their ego, yes. To their learning, no.
So, how exactly does this change "work for some"? :-D
I use 'test out' even if I'm not au fait with the lessons because it forces me to remember instead of clicking on the hints. I might have to do the 'test out' several times to get through but I learn more than if I'd plodded through the lessons and therefore I damn well want the points for it!
Yes, I agree with you that learning is the main point. It was nice to receive a huge windfall in XP's as long as it lasted. It's usually best to make the most out of every situation. Instead of focusing primarily on XP's, I intend to pay more attention to the number of crowns and to the tree levels. Why not try to take advantage of what the new system offers instead of resenting the change? I learned by experience, that all negative feelings hamper my learning progress tremendously. Therefore, I will always try to find ways to keep my mind focused on what can help me to make progress faster, regardless of reward system. In essence, my goal is to be fluent in at least six languages, and perhaps even more. In order to achieve that, I also need to read books on all those languages and to find other ways to engage in writing and in conversations. I do not intend to lower my learning goals simply because I do not receive such a big windfall in XP's. I will continue to test out and I will also do some lessons in the regular learning mode.
"Windfall"??? If a student tests out of a language in a University, as I have, you get full credit. The cap is counter intuitive. I love DL as a system. The cap of XP is a mistake.
I reached level 25 (more than 30,000 XPs) on 26 combinations of Duolingo trees in a little over 6 months when I discovered how quickly I could accumulate a lot of XPs in a very short time. I could easily average about 3000 to 4000 XPs daily by testing out without much effort. I had a few days when I exceeded 10,000 XPs, sometimes, I was able to average over 2,000 XPs per hour. There have been another few experts who raked XP's in at high speed. There were times when I earned 500 XPs for a single test-out, especially at crown level 4 and 5. So now instead, the 500 XPs have been trimmed to just 20. It's little bit drastic and it has put my goal of 1 million XPs a little further away. I wish, they could find a better reward system that is more proportional, and I would expect them to do so with time. It was nice as long as it lasted, but now I am adjusting to the new reward system. I will still test out while earning far fewer XPs and sometimes, I will take the regular route, but I have to admit that it goes at a snail's pace for my taste. Perhaps, Duolingo will find a better reward system that's a little more balanced and I trust that they eventually will. Perhaps, we go just through another transition phase to a much better system. So, for now, I would suggest taking a few slower lessons in combination with the test-out option. This way, you will get 10 XPs for the slow lessons and still another 20 XPs for the savvy route within the same unit. How about that? Now, I am probably more focused on balancing my trees to a certain crown level. I think I have 20+ at crown level 4 and a few at crown level 3. And might also start to make a few trees completely golden at crown level 5 at 100% competency. I enjoyed and still do enjoy what I received so easily and so quickly. And I don't let the new reward system dampen my enthusiasm for learning languages and for perfecting my skills. And yes, receiving 500XP's in a few minutes was a windfall to me. Of course, every one of us enjoys receiving windfalls of any kind, and I don't see anything wrong with it either. What really matters in the end is how well do we know the language. As we study, we can also mentally observe how our consciousness about the different languages changes. For instance, how we can understand different languages simultaneously without translating from one language to the other? There are so many fascinating aspects about learning languages, or about learning anything that reach far beyond the number of XPs we have received.
When I tested out of Spanish to level 300 at my college, I got exactly zero credits for any of the 100 or 200 level classes. In fact, I still had to accumulate 10 credits in foreign languages or classicals. The Placement test was strictly to see the appropriate level of classes to put you in so you were not repeating what you were already proficient in.
I am not sure of the proportion of schools that do either are, but it is incorrect to presume that because your school did something, that every schools did in the last, or still does, nor is it correct for me to assume that my school still has the same requirements, or any other school still has the same requirements that my school had.
I agree with you, but it's interesting that so many people are saying it acted as a motivator for them.
I've been wondering for a while how some people rack up so many points on such a consistent basis. I just thought they worked at it a lot.
I can't even remember if I tested out when I signed up. Maybe I did, but I figured since then I'll take the practice.
The way I see it is that If I could test out of it, the practice can't be too hard.
The practice is not too hard, it's not hard enough, that is the issue for many of us. I used to rack up points in the thousands back when Immersion still existed, because I would spend entire days glued to Duo, doing translations. I was also doing Timed Practice, earning double the XPs, because practice alone was not challenging enough.
The testing-out is just because I am utterly tired of repeating the exact same sentence 20 or 25 times, because I know it by heart already.
Later edit: The tests are HARDER than the lessons, in that there are no hints, no word bank, and if you don't pass you end up with no XPs at all. People who are doing the tests and passing them, thus earning the "infamous rewards" of hundreds of points actually have a lot more knowledge, otherwise it would be impossible for them to pass the tests. I really don't see why they should be punished for having been better students or for simply being more advanced than other learners.
Agreed. I loved having all my work pay off and receiving all those points. I loved it. It was fun, @elvper, there is a fun aspect to language learning, just because people enjoy getting large quantities of xp doesn't mean they don't want to learn.
This is really frustrating, I mean how many times do I have to type "Saya suka jeruk" to be able to test out, and then once I do test out be relegated to 20 measly XP. This is so unmotivating. This is really a drag. Weeelp! Guess I'll have to wait another year for that level 25 since all of my "soy una nina" questions will only merit me 20 xp. I mean why would I bother to test out? Why would I bother to even try to make a tree gold. @Luis Von Ahn, yeah..not well done buddy.
Would you go so far as to say the update is a... scourge? on the platform...?
@The Blobfish. YES. A resounding YES. I don't have a lot of fun in my life, and testing out and seeing my xp rise was fun. Not only have they taken away a key thing in my life they have also made it next to impossible to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time. No, please don't say something snarky like "its not about the xp its about the learning" but no, xp isn't nothing, its something that is fun, and gives (me at least) a sense of pride that I have done something enjoyable and accomplished something. Now..its kinda eh...Duo is commiting suicide by doing this.
It is only through struggle that we may better ourselves and satisfy the Bilge.
You are right. This is a huge disappointment and demotivator to learn a language. Please reverse this duolingo.
@edwin67360, you are kidding yourself if you think this is going to get reversed, the only thing duo reverses is the great features, so yeah, we can expect worse in the future
I get that it can be satisfying to test out - I did it in my De->En tree a while back to see how far I could get in the placement test, and it was an interesting thing to do, but whenever I've used the feature, it has felt as if I haven't REALLY solidified my learning. For this reason, I aim to complete everything 100% only through the lessons.
Remember, it should be about learning the language; not the facilitating 'game-ifying' features designed to hook in casual learners at the start of their journey. Testing out has its place, but when learning fresh material (ignoring the basics you've covered a ton already), it really makes you feel much more confident to get a great handle on the subtleties of the content of any individual lesson through longer interaction and exposure instead of taking the easy way out to 'get points'.
Think about why you're probably really here - to learn a language. This transcends the game-ified aspects of Duolingo (points & that), and priorities should really be in line with what your actual end goal is; the streak and points numbers - while nice to have - effectively mean nothing. Gaining points through testing out gives you less knowledge and/or confidence with said knowledge.
Obviously this doesn't apply if it is just your hobby to treat Duolingo more as a game/app to fill your free time while learning cool skills instead of supplementing it with other types of intensive study or immersion in the target language etc, but looking at your streak and level 20+s, that doesn't appear to be the case? (correct me if I'm wrong - don't want to assume one way or the other haha)
Anyway yeah sorry this got so long... The point is, if you really think about it, points and that aren't really a big deal. There's other ways to motivate yourself (watching native level films and reading native books etc), and I'm sure it won't take long to forget this update and for it not to affect everyone here as much as it seems to at the moment haha
During your little lecture, has it occured to you there are other learners than your two types? The ones disliking this change are most likely to be the more serious learners, who combine Duolingo with other resources. We do not test out of a skill because we want some easy points to compete with beginners, we test out, because we already know a skill. The reduced exp because of a feature just a small part can (and wants) to use is simply discouraging. Sure, not getting any exp for anything on Duolingo would be an option too, you are right about this, but then why not get a better course right away, if the gamification disappears? A good balance of gamification and usefulness is the key to Duolingo's success. If you remove one or the other, it is gonna fail.
Your attitude towards other learners is not ok and you should perhaps think a bit about it. Many people testing out are definitely here to practice the language they are learning and testing out (and getting the points faster than you) just means they are better at it, putting in more time, using more resources.
The real question on this thread and concerning more changes like this is: Does Duolingo still welcome this more diverse part of the public, or is it pushing everyone to either conform into a very narrow way of using the product or leaving? That is the choice the staff is make with any bigger change.
We do not test out of a skill because we want some easy points to compete with beginners, we test out, because we already know a skill. The reduced exp because of a feature just a small part can (and wants) to use is simply discouraging.
That's exactly what I'm doing. I don't think I ever tested out in the Russian course as I'm actually in need of all those repetitions, but I very much do so regularly on other courses, particularly for languages I have already been speaking for ages, such as i. e. Italian and French, both of which I started learning >35y ago, but where I lost quite a lot due to only the odd occasion where I can actually practice / speak it. On Duo, I'm refreshing rather than learning those.
"Discouraging" is the key word!
Exactly. Have a lingot. I use Duolingo as just one element of my study, and I use the test out function in order to see what fields I still have to focus on, and which I'm DONE with.
I think that the effort of testing out of a skill, with only 3 lives and no help, as compared to endless lives and the hover-over help, is more than just twice the points.
If TPTB decide that full points are too many, perhaps fix it at 70, rather than 20? Or even at 70 minus the number of mistakes made on the way?
Thanks for summing this up. Besides, those who really want to learn a language never use DL alone as it takes You only so far (usually only up to A2 level) and so use their time to learn from other resources as well, Duolingo is doing everything they can to demotivating those serious learners with all those changes.
If they are that serious about actually learning over getting points, they will not care about only getting a few points when testing out, to find out what they should be working on.
Now I'll be speaking from my experience: for majority of the time, I don't care about the points and therefore don't need Duolingo. But there are times, when the rest of my studies (not languages) and other obligations drain my energy. And in those times, doing a bit of exercise for the motivating amount of points and trying to reach the level 25 in the long run, that has been useful to me. That is the magic of gamification and the exp. It does not remove or replace the intrinsic motivation. But it can be helpful in the harder times. And this is being removed.
It seems the people for the change seem to be acting very selfish and want everyone to be on their level.
The people against the change seem to understand that people learn differently and require different things for motivation/learning.
You misunderstand. You're coming from the mentality that the root cause of any motivation to speak out on the issue are motivated by 'level' (and hence the XP and gamification aspect). Most of the people that aren't bothered by the change aren't bothered by it precisely because they don't care about 'level', and this is where your logic breaks down. By the way: it's not hard for these people to get to others' 'levels' too - simply through repeatedly testing out.
@Mereade - Thank you! You took the words out of my mouth (or hands), but you said it better.
You've misunderstood my stance on this entirely. I never suggested Duolingo change anything - the gamification has its place and I've never had anything against it. I was merely suggesting to the owner of the account whose comment I was replying to that perhaps they should review and evaluate THEIR stance; the gratification that the gamification can facilitate can take one so far in learning a language, but to really reach those high levels, Duolingo and its testing out for lots of XP isn't going to take you far.
It's not as black and white as you seem to be portraying. I was never having anything against testing out as a feature, only suggesting that those who used it with the XP gain as a PRIORITY rather than seeing it as a bonus (hence being slightly annoyed but quickly getting over the new cap) should perhaps re-evaluate where their priorities in language learning truly lie. Many will be in a phase (especially towards the beginning) where the XP stuff will be a big thing but later on as they start to develop real skills it will become less of a focus. Many won't care at all about it. Some will focus almost solely on it. I was simply trying to put out an encouraging message; that duolingo will only take you so far, and to really get to a high level in a language, you must look elsewhere as well. Therefore, if you take everything into perspective, the XP system holds little real relevance or importance other than a tool to get people to make learning a habit and to monitor progress (in which it becomes an irrelevancy once learning becomes habitual, and progress monitoring is nice but not necessary [and isn't always reliable as a monitor of progress if testing out is commonplace, but this doesn't matter]).
I would disagree with the notion that the majority of learners disliking the change are the truly serious ones, precisely for the reasons I stated. Those that are committed to the LANGUAGE will see the value of the XP system and it may motivate them, but it's not a tool they'll rely on and therefore they are more likely to have the view that the testing out cap is a shame but not really a big deal at all. But my argument wasn't concerning the XP system; rather I was referring to the heaps of it you could receive through testing out.
Obviously lots of different categories of learners will fall into each of the different groups of thought over this issue. What I've stated here is merely my predictions based upon inductive reasoning.
I also disagree with your second paragraph: It's not hard to test out of a skill once you've encountered its contents at least once (getting from purple to blue), and sometimes it can be done even without this initial round of exposure if the learner has encountered other resources and is already familiar with a lot of the content (someone that's already spent a bit of time learning the language - perhaps half way down the tree). Therefore, it's not a given that someone consistently testing out will be putting in more effort - it's entirely possible they're putting in LESS effort, and simply scraping by through the tests. Again, as you seem to take everything I initially said in a rather myopic way with total disregard for the implemented semantic tools designed to make clear my standpoint, I'll spell it out that this obviously doesn't mean everyone testing out is putting more or less effort in than anyone else. It merely shows that either approach is equally possible and therefore your statement cannot be a steadfast fact.
I don't know where you got the bit about my attitude to other learners... Please point me in the direction of the comments I made that indicated I was trying to put others down. I'll explain anything that's unclear to you/you misunderstood.
I don't know whether me or anyone else wasting time explaining it again and again will help you, but I'll patiently try.
The people caring about the language are much more likely to be using other sources and progress faster. They would leave Duolingo behind very soon completely, if it wasn't for the gamification and for testing out. That's why we are returning even around level A2 and B1 (later it is pointless). And being told to choose between either using Duo meaningfully for us (=fast) or to not reach the traditional end of the game, that is the catch.
I don't doubt there are a few people doing what you describe and just gathering the points without learning, I've even heard of a person scoring by using google translate. They exist. But they don't harm me in any way and they shouldn't be the reason for slowing down the better learners. If it wasn't for the stupid leagues, nobody would care how do the others learn.
Most learners in this thread, who are against the change, are actually spending much more time and efforts learning than the people just grinding through everything slowly, that is the basic thing you seem not to understand.
To point you to the right direction: reread your post I responded to again. Perhaps out loud. Perhaps you'll understand, what is disrespectful about your insinuations concerning the faster learners. I don't need your explanations, you've made your opinions very clear already ;-)
Truth be told, the change itself would be just a bit unpleasant, nothing more. I was taken away the test outs in the app, I deleted it. I don't like this change, I'll wait half a year for other changes and either come back for some language here or not, not a big deal. But what I find disgusting is the reaction of a part of the community, where the slow learners clearly envy the fast learners. This is not the community I had known on Duolingo months or years ago. And I am not sure this can be fixed by the updates to come.
Where are you getting this 'slow learners' vs 'fast learners' thing from? As I've said, I'm not against testing out in the slightest, and would advocate that anyone serious about learning a language should focus MORE time on resources other than duolingo as opposed to grinding through every single lesson in a duolingo course all the time. That would get extremely boring and yield relatively small results compared to time invested. A much better approach is to exposure oneself to a wealth of native materials & media such as books and tv, on top of a consistent stream of conversations with native speakers.
If you have got the impression that I think one should only desire to progress slowly through duolingo, you're very much mistaken.
Additionally, as some of your repeated comments about slow vs fast learners are presumably aimed as a low blow thing towards me out of spite (your whole demeanour appears rather confrontational and unfriendly), I'll describe where I'm personally at with german. (I'd say it's pretty decent progress I'm happy with - after 4-5 months I could get the gist of most native material, and after 7 only the more obscure vocabulary escapes me.) Personally, I barely use duo. I did quite a bit for the first three months or so but once I'd absorbed all the grammar the program could offer me and gotten used to having conversations in and reading books in the language, I moved on to just doing just that: watching tv in the language, listening to podcasts, reading books, having conversations. After 7 months, my abilities are a solid B2 (plus A2 in French). I'm working to get to C1 within the next year or so.
I haven't had any such confrontational interaction/disagreement like this with anyone in well over a year, so my reasoning/debating skills may be a little rusty, but to me it really does just seem like you're making a big thing out of something very insignificant.
Enjoy learning your language. Everyone learns in their own way. With my initial comment, I was just proposing methods of greater efficiency. If you find other methods more comfortable, then stick with those. No need to react in such a way because someone SUGGESTED a method different to what you're used to.
reply to maximford: I am taking it from this thread. The pro-change people started using this and criticising people learning differently from them, including rather strong statements.
I know damn well how to use resources outside of Duolingo and have reached high level in two languages (C1 and C2, both certified), that is not the issue here. I've liked to use Duo for my weak languages and the combination of crown levels + testing out + full exp was actually very helpful in the moments of low energy and motivation. It condensed the course a bit and made it more challenging.
So, it is sad to see this go just for some badly organised Leagues. The testing out users are being discouraged by the points on the desktop, by restriction or removal of testing out in the app, and by the testing out being expensive in other versions of the app. That is unfortunate. They had reintroduced the testing out option and now don't like people using it :-D They are discouraging progress.
But what is much worse is seeing what has happened to this community.
The people who are not happy about the change are more open minded, don't care how others are learning, and just can't see any good reason to not be rewarded for learning the skill, now matter how and how fast or slow. Nobody in this group has attacked the other half in any way.
The pro change users argue about the people testing out "cheating", not deserving points, or "missing out on learning opportunities" (which is something every learner knows about themselves the best). The only "benefit" they've got from the change is not seeing others getting more exp, that is not a healthy attitude. They are glad other users cannot use Duo differently from them.
I may sound less cheerful than at the beginning of this debate, true. But that is true about most people discussing this.
I'm not here to learn a language, I'm here to find out about the various langues and see how they are similar and dissimilar and how they work. There's no way I could go to Spain and do much more than ask for a restaurant table and order dinner - I'm at level 25 on that. I regard Duo as a game that I very much enjoy, I've been doing it for years, I'm fascinated by languages but if I seriously wanted to speak them, I'd get the Michel Thomas language DVDs. Getting XP points is part of the game experience, that's what does it for me and though I'll continue to keep my streak going and hope things improve, I'm not going to be spending hours on it anymore, because the joy and the fun of it has gone. And that's such a shame.
This is more to the point of the issue surrounding the cap. It depends on the individual's motives for using Duolingo, and I can empathise with you.
Yeah honestly in my experience testing out isn't a good way to learn anyway. Just don't test out, then you learn more and you won't lose out on any XP, it's win-win.
Sure, if you are new to the language, but what if you wanna skip on to a level thats new to you and you know the rest? Would you repeat the same thing thru 50 lessons when you already know it well? You will just move on this way and leave that skill be on its lower level because you dont want to waste time on "basic" materials.
Yeah testing out is fine. It really doesn't matter if a lot of XP is earned from it or not though - I think that's the main issue people aren't quite grasping. Also I should point out that this isn't the case for every user - but should be for those with the end of definitely wanting to speak a foreign language someday to a high level.
Here's my strategy: Get the first crown in a new skill of Japanese. Play Practice 5x per day for the next week or more. Each day I see a randomly generated set of things I've seen before, but heavily weighted toward the newest skills that I haven't fully mastered. Once I feel confident in my abilities on the new skill, I go back into the said skill. Usually I'll spend a few days to slowly level it up to level 3 (earning ~50-60XP per day). Now, at this point I've got the skill down, so I give myself two easy days of testing out of crown levels 4 and 5. Then, the next day I open up the next skill down the tree.
I FAR prefer making heavy use of the 'practice' button to keep refreshing me on EVERY subject I've seen before to spending weeks fully dedicated to a new skill. I've found the algorithm for generating 'practice' sets to be surprisingly well-balanced at keeping all my past skills in good condition.
Total agreement. Timed practice especially kicks my butt so it feels even more rewarding when I do manage to finish in time.
If you already know, what is the interest to repeat and repeat again something you know by heart ? It is more interesting to learn something new, to really learn.
And fun is something which is important when you learn. There, duo is killing fun.
Go ahead, Moderators, delete my posts because you can't bear reading about something your company has done that consumers dislike
In addition to this, there are also Health, removal of Immersion, removal of Activity Centers, and more that I can't think of right now. I personally think that Duolingo should be open source and anyone should be able to start making a new course without approval from Duolingo, which seems to be granted very rarely.
Removal of clubs, Troubleshooting posts not showing Up in new posts section anymore.
The moderators are not the ones to blame, guys. They are volunteers. The only remove comments that violate the user agreements, or off-topic comments in the sentence forums. They are volunteers that are trying to improve things here. The people to blame are a handful of administrators, and they never interact with us users.
I couldn't agree more! delete my posts, delete my account, but if you do, just know-- i won't give duolingo a second chance.
I am with you. I have been on the longest streak of my life and I know that I speak for most people when I say that points/score/competition is what drives me and keeps my motivation up. You, moderators, just ruined half of that..
Pretty much this, weren't for it, I'd not have felt motivated to learn Portuguese at such a quick pace. As a Spanish native, it's quite intuitive and it'd have been a huge bother to slow down.
I used to find it so satisfying, as well as motivating, to get through an entire skill in one lesson, and get so many points for doing so, and now I feel like I am missing out on all my points.
I felt that accumulating a large sum of points was great in a sense I was actually accomplishing things on a moderate level, now it just feels as if It's my birthday at school and they give me one of those stupid "Happy Birthday" pencils, if anyone understands my point . . .
I do not see what all the fuss is about. The XP means nothing. It has absolutely no military utility, and this app is, after all, a tool.
The military application of Duolingo is dubious at best, and the XP even less so.
I'm with Duolingo since last Dec. and loved it but with this change it's not the same! I'm not motivated anymore...like it has been said before it's no point in doing the same thing throughout 20 lessons when you could test out and get all the points in one shot. Especially when the lessons have the same sentences anyway. It's definitely getting boring after a while....but when I only get 20 XP for doing an entire level it really sucks! It feels I'm getting nowhere at all! :-( Very demotivating!!!!!!
Quote from Anniebetty: "Ever notice all the ads in the margins? If you have to go through all the lessons, theoretically you are exposed to a lot more ads ... and Duo makes money off of ads, I reckon." I'm actually a Duolingo Plus member and it's the same. As I have paid for it now I will stay until my membership ends but afterwards I will change to another one if it stays like this....such a shame!
You've been here since last December? I've been here since Sept. 2012, and trust me, it was better in the before-time. There was immersion, which exposed you to real-world language, they didn't have ads, everybody had the SAME experience, no matter whether you shelled out a whole ton of money, and you could see what your friends were talking about without joining their club. Oh yeah, and I hate the crown system too.
Let me make a wild guess: If the XP cap is to stay, then premium users will have the privilege to ignore it. Nice business move:(
So now doing everything one by one will get you a ton more XP than testing out?
Yep, lol, users who test out can now repeat the basic lessons, in order to finish a course, because that is probably the shortest way. Great move to motivate learning in a way that makes sense, geeeez, I totally lost the trust into DL's intentions to teach. They do their best to achieve the opposite of what they claim.
Actually you should put it the other way, by learning the normal way and at the end of the course you are doing tests (like in school, university) gets you a ton less than repeating the same 4- 9 sentences a gazillion times.
Someone just tell me since when and for what reason did duo change so drastically? It was a good platfrom to learn languages while it was a bit like a game and helped you have fun learning. Now it's becoming a game of people who want to compete and meanwhile you can learn a language. Who on earth thought it was a good idea? You keep this way up and people who want to learn will go to other platforms. And as you keep making it more game-ish those gamers will get bored and look for new games. You are just going to lose your users. Also, if you dont want people to rush in on the league with test out XP, instead of puniwshing everyone why don't you just make it so it will count practices completed? Training, new skill, test out all gives you one point in the leagues and your problem is fixed instead of just taking everything down to 10 xp and making lvl 25 almost impossible to reach.
Edit: 20 lingot for a test-out is just too much, I agree with charging lingot for it, but if I know something and wanna skip it to lvl 5 it costs 100 lingots which takes quite a long time to obtain.
I posted about this earlier. I tested out correctly and scored nothing on what should have been about 12 points and then only got 20 points on an 18 point test out. What is going on?
As I saw in another discussion, to boycott we're switching our daily to casual (10xp). Just doing that bare minimum. Duolingo will have to change it back to how it was. Strength in numbers
I think I'll do that as well. I was going to start the Japanese course, seriously, maybe even restart the course, but not now.
I saw your post and have just done what you suggested Samaolivs. After more than 3 years or so of doing 50xp or more, I have just switched to 10xp and have just completed my goal for today. Got 20xp for reaching level 5 in a German skill.
same here streak is getting hard to maintain. Limited time so very unhelpful to me
I received 32 XP points for completing a story and received only 20 XP points for testing out of a skill. This seems backwards to me?
Seems off to me too.
Tests you demonstrate a single skill among a small set of problems with a fairly limited vocabulary.
Stories you demonstrate a wide range of skills,over a decently sized problem, with a vastly superior vocabulary, all while using it in a real world context.
I also reduced my daily goal to 10 XPs and will keep it like that until testing out gives more points again. Especially to get already completed trees again up to level 5 is way too time intense to manage anymore. Also the crown update made it already difficult to notice the degradation in languages. I really hope Duolingo will change its path because I think otherwise powerusers will just leave the platform.
Yeah, the same thing happened to me and I am FURIOUS! Why should I be denied all those points just because I tested out of it?! I feel I should earn the same reward, now if I want points I have to go through the tedium of doing each individual lesson. REALLY bad move on Duo's part.