[XP Cap Poll] Result: 13% For, 87% Against
UPDATE: Duolingo has now responded: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/31193643
Over the last 36 hours, I have been regularly checking this poll and updating the results. Given that Duolingo appears to be willing to listen to users' concerns and that the split of votes has remained roughly stable in recent hours, now seems a good time to close the poll.
The final results are as follows:
FOR: 39 (13%)
AGAINST: 256 (87%)
A massive thanks to everyone who voted. I really enjoyed reading through people's passionate, insightful views on both sides of the argument. Though it is impossible to please everyone, I sincerely hope Duolingo will now find a solution that a majority of its users support.
They absolutely do, at least to some extent and have shown that on a fair number of occasions, it's just that most people seem to tend to forget about it right after. Popular opinion simply =/= reality or what's optimal. Also be aware that those who are against it might be more prone to come to the forum to complain compared to those who support it. Or to pose the question differently, should Duolingo be / strive to be a popular form of entertainment or an actual tool to learn a language?
Sometimes an unpopular change might be a necessity. Since I do not have access to Duolingo's data I obviously can't state that in this case it is a necessity, but Duolingo's data might paint that picture.
evlper, while I agree with your point that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes in terms of data, don't you think that Duolingo's ability to motivate users is central to its effectiveness as a language tool? This poll and the other threads on the topic show that a huge number of users found the test-out award system highly motivating. Surely this is only a good thing? It encourages them to come back and to invest more time in learning. After all, whether voters on this poll are for or against the change, we are all discussing the same thing: the most effective gamification strategy. Which is why the "it's just virtual points" argument doesn't hold water.
My personal gripe is simply that I like to compare the amount of time I have invested in different languages. Changing the point system once again frustrates this.
I haven't followed the forum closely enough over the years to have an opinion about the Duolingo team's responsiveness. But given the number of people who have spoken up against this change, I believe the team have a responsibility to justify the cap to Duolingo's users/customers and to listen to their concerns.
Unfortunately, Duolingo makes it impossible to have an intelligent debate on the subject because they don't seem willing to say why they made this change. The arguments I've read seem so heavily against the change that I feel like we are missing some significant reason for this change.
Duolingo, if your reading this, I WILL get Duolingo Plus as an annual subscription if all the following actions occur: 1) This test-out cap is removed, 2) We get the option to turn of timed practice on Google Chrome, and 3) Duolingo shows how strengthened the skills are without us using duome.eu/KaptianKaos8/progress
You can use an add-on for chrome showing your decaying skills. Look for it, it is called Duo strength, I'm using it.
because less xp means you have to do more lessons to achieve your daily goal, and that means more adds per user per day. Don't you think in the long run that also means plenty more money for them?
I'm team 'I'm only here to learn', and this doesn't affect me personally, but it's a weird decision - leaning on insulting - for those people who are only brushing up a language or just cannot keep doing the same lesson over and over again just to gild a skill.
I'm aware that this was probably implemented to combat people abusing the testing out function to score higher on leaderboards. In my opinion, this says more about leaderboards, though...
To me XP sounds like experience points. If I test out a skill I have that experiance.
Now with the leaderboard they try to use the XP as how-much-work-did-i-put-in-today-points, which of course i not the same as experiance.
To make it right they should add Energy Spent Points and use that on the leaderboards:)
You can still test out ! No one is stopping us from doing that ! The tree completes a bit faster that's all ...
Reaching lvl 25 will be harder for people then, though. ( Kinda meant that gilding a skill plus getting the correct amount of exp will be frustrating. Sorry if I was unclear!)
( Also, I couldn't test out in Russian if my life depended on it. I'm snailing through my tree, hitting each and every lesson xD! )
Is it really unreasonably hard to reach level 25 though? The 10XP per lesson rule for testing out was only around for 10 months, less for most because it was released in waves.
Before that (before crown levels), you could test out of an entire skill with one test and you only got 10-20XP. There were also fewer sources of XP, no tinycards or stories during much of that time. People still reached level 25.
When we were finally able to test out with crowns, we didn't expect the reward for testing out to be the same as the reward for doing individual lessons. The way it was just 11 months ago, most people would finish their tree and then their goal would be to keep their skills current and gradually make it to level 25. Then crowns added a lot of repetition in the tree, so it took longer to finish with lessons but testing up to level 25 was a lot faster.
The goal posts got pushed further away and of course that's frustrating, but it is still easier to reach level 25 than it was 11 months ago. Maybe one of the reasons for this change was that for those 10 months, people were maxing out too quickly.
Before Crown levels, we were rewarded huge amounts of XP for testing out. And there was immersion, were you could earn 50 xp for every sentence you translated (more for longer sentences, less for shorter ones). That's how I got to level 25 in a few languages. Immersion was really fun for people at a higher level, because it called for greater skills and taught high-end grammar that is not available in the normal lessons. It was really fantastic. When they did away with it, there was huge disappointment. And yet they never heeded to users' wishes. They lost a great deal of high-end users, people who were native speakers or fluent in their L2's... people who commented in the forums and were the real teaching force on Duolingo... a lot of people whom I had been following on my leaderboard quit. It was a real pity and a real loss. Now they are making a similar mistake, more trivial in my opinion than eliminating immersion, but still disregarding a motivational factor for higher-level users. I'm voting against the change, but I won't bother holding my breath to see if they will revise their decision.
We were NOT rewarded huge amounts of XP before crowns. A user in another thread has a pre-crowns version of the windows app and it awards 10-20XP to test out of an entire skill. Even if the rewards differed by platform, we still had far fewer lessons to test out of and there are now 5x as many tests available.
In the old system, a skill had a minimum of 1 lesson and a maximum of around 10. Now in my Spanish tree for example, the smallest skills have 36 lessons and the largest have 120. The skills in the newer version are so long because of all the repetition, it's the same old content. Testing out in the old system yielded a very modest XP reward and comparatively we earned more XP from practicing when skills decayed. Skill decay is no longer visible but the rest of the practice XP is built into the repetition in lessons. When you test out, you don't get that repetition and don't deserve the practice XP. It's balanced back to a system that has review as the most stable source of XP over time.
Immersion was gone for over a year when crowns came around. While it was extremely helpful for those who used it, the vast majority of users never used it. I'm not here to argue about how big of a loss immersion was, my point is that most users used to review to achieve most of their XP. Simply finishing the unique content in the tree never resulted in so much XP except in that 10 month period of testing with crowns, and a far away level 25 was never discouraging before.
Agreed - I don't really care about levels, Crowns, and testing out. Immersion was a good way to move into intermediate work as you closed out a tree and wanted to get to level 25. Crowns just made finishing the tree quite a bit slower.
I never actually understood what the immersions were and now that you tell that the gave 50 lingots for a sentence I wonder if the immersions were actually the Buzzfeed articles they translated and charged 4cents/word for. I wouldn't wonder, fits perfectly with DL's idea to let volunteers work the main object, the lessons and moderation and help in the discussions.
Ahn calls it Human Computing. It tells alot about the human condition.
But with the changes to Timed Practice and Immersion, about the same time as the first introduction of Crowns some of the faster mechanisms for earning XP were taken out.
What is the purpose of gaining XP if you already know a language and are just brushing up? You can still test out of sections and crown levels at the same pace.
Besides being shown on your profile for other users to see, what is the importance of XP and levels?
I can't speak for anyone else, but it would let me take a bit of a break on the weekends while still keeping my progress steady. I'd work at the languages I'm still shaky in during the week, and test out of the ones I'm pretty solid in on the weekends, so that I wasn't neglecting anything and I could still have some down time.
Achieving XP, streaks, and language levels have zero effect on the learning process. You can practice a lot or a little on any day you choose. Earning XP and maintaining a streak is not required to learn, practice, or test out of exercises.
Don't quite understand how earning 400 XP in one day makes any difference at all.
It's not just about brushing up skills. I test out straight from the beginning (I don't think I've ever done a normal lesson?) on Portuguese because it's so similar to the languages I already know that I hardly ever make a mistake after reading the theory section.
Testing out, though, now only awards 20 XP per test, so you may have to do multiple if you also go for daily goals.
Yup, also on the 10exp goal. Some days I do a lot of Duo, other days only to keep my streak and spend the rest of my study time somewhere else.
If you are able to skip a whole skill you aren't learning, so have you really earned 400xp? it makes sense to me that XP is reserved for lessons where you are learning new things.
When you test out, you do not "skip a whole skill", and you definitely can learn new things. Testing out combines a group of lessons into one longer lesson, with no drop-down hints. I have found it very helpful.
As for earning XPs, even 10 XPs for one individual lesson is not really "fair", since you get 10 XPs whether you get all the items correct or if you miss some.
But in a way, we're both saying the same thing: XPs don't really matter that much, because everyone sees them as meaning something different.
Since, from what I've experienced, you get completely different sentences in the test than in the lessons- with no hints or help, yes. You are learning. Not to mention the tests give more difficult tasks, and you're not just repeating the same two sentences over and over. I've actually learned more from testing out attempts than I have from several of the lessons since they made the last update.
Technically, if you can test out (it's not skipping) a whole skill, you're actually good at the language. So why are people being punished for being good at the language they're learning? I don't care about the points because I'll keep learning languages regardless (Duolingo is not my only resource for language learning), but I agree that the level cap on test outs is insulting.
against. Getting that sweet exp after testing out your skills is great motivation to keep you going and i was having fun with duo such a shame.
but personally i would be in the middle of opinions, like i said if we had to absolutely have caps, make it a little bit more than 20 especially for those nearing golden owls.
i see both ways. For the fast paced, and ones that want to have fun i can see the XP cap being awful. for people who commit to 20-45 min a day XP cap might be ok. but i would suggest if Duo was gonna put a cap on XP for testing out, instead of 20 maybe make it 100.
would be easy to adjust accordingly to the level you test out. So far it was 10 per lesson of that level. Now it's only 5 for each lesson of the very short levels 0/2 and less than 0.5 points for every lesson of a large level of like 0/45. So why not being honest, communicate the financial interest and cap it to like 7.5 points for every lesson of the test out level and hell, give one or two extra effing ads and everybody could live with it - although a tiny bit grumpy ;)
The real problem though is boredom of levels 4 & 5. While levels 1,2,3 of each skill are informative, levels 4 & 5 are just redundant and repetitive drills. That repetitiveness must be achieved through practice and spaced repetition. Adding levels just for the purpose of rot repetition is wrong.
Basically right, but the issue here is that people who chose for a free language offer that is advertising and recruiting with fun and gamification do that, because they do not want the most deep and elaborate language education but a fun way that motivates learning in the first place and helps you not to quitt out of boredom or lack of motivation. Call it pixie dust but all that crap has a psychological function that helps, like a piece of chocolate or ice cream helps when you are tired, fed and demotivated. Nobody who would like to learn a language to perfection would do that on DL. Means that DL kind of "breaks the contract" with those users who came particularly for that concept of easy going, pixie dust and fun.
Against. I have rarely felt the need to go through every single lesson after reaching level 3 on any of the skills. If something is too difficult for me, I won't pass the level 4 test and then I'll know that I need to the lessons individually. I don't like that Duo is essentially punishing and de-motivating people who learn the language skills quickly. Yes, the points don't gain you anything, but the game aspect of it is fun, and now they've taken that away.
I HATE IT. Its THE worst 'update' ever. Don't fix it if its not broken. Furthermore it is completely useless. And demotivating. So, I am against it
@WinterSoldier. You speak my very thoughts. There was nothing wrong with how it was before this update. Although I personally didn't find more XP motivating or less XP demotivating others do-and that's important. For that reason I am strongly against this XP cap because it is demotivating users and hindering their language progress because of that.
I can understand why Dulingo felt the need to "nerf" the test out feature. I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about it though. I can think of two ideas that might be better.
Charge lingots for testing out. Maybe a sliding scale where it's free to test out of a level zero scale, 10 lingots for level 1 skill, 20 lingots for level 2 etc. This would stop people from racing to level five which I've read is something Duolingo discourages. It would also give some actual value to lingots which are pretty meaningless right now.
Make the actual test harder. Duolingo currently allows up to three mistakes. What if someone had to do perfectly in order to test out of a skill? This would truly demonstrate that they've mastered the skill. And they would have earned the big XP boost from testing out.
It does cost lingots to test out on mobile. Right now the amount varies because it's in the testing phase, but by whichever testing group you're in, not by level. A thread I saw on Reddit has users reporting 5, 20, and even 400 lingots per test. So some users can't afford to test out but they're competing against users who can.
The cost for testing out on mobile was the main reason I bought Plus. Between the charge for testing out and the way the "lives" worked, the iOS app was becoming a real pain to use. With Plus, there's no charge for testing out and there's a "health shield" so you don't get locked out.
I can understand why people who couldn't afford to pay for testing out were frustrated if they were competing against people who can. But for those of us who are not competing, or for those who compete but also have Plus, the cap serves no purpose.
The more I read everyone's comments, the more I can see both sides. Maybe it's not really that big a deal if it helps out those who are competing, though I think that a cap of 20 points is probably too low.
i agree with the second for sure. like each time you test out within the tree, make it a little harder each time. also charging lingots is a brilliant idea as well.
The failure to notify us was probably what annoyed me the most about it. In the past, they have usually posted something in the discussions announcing these changes. I thought something was wrong with the whole system until I came here and found out what was going on.
Also, I would like to know what their official reason was. So far, what I'm reading is that it was to satisfy people who compete in leagues and felt it was unfair for someone to be able to earn a lot of XPs quickly. OK, I can understand that. I think there may have been other ways to deal with the problem, but at least we would know why they did it.
As it is, it just happened and we can't be certain about the reason(s) for the change.
against. i also thought it was an error the first time it happened, until it happened the next time i tried to test out.
Against, although if the cap was higher than 20 xp, I might be for.
Currently, I have 35 lessons for level 4. If I take each lesson, that gives me 350 points. But if it's something I don't need to take each lesson for, I only get 20? That hardly seems fair.
I don't really care about the leaderboards, but there's a big difference in motivation between 20 and 200 points.
I am against it.
The principle that testing-out a skill should provide the same XP as progressing through it in the normal way was a sound one; it is still necessary to have spent time learning the material one way or the other.
This change is essentially penalising users for having some knowledge of a language, which is a funny way to encourage learning.
100% against! I've been commenting on all the other threads explaining why. It's unfair and I feel cheated out of XP that I earned. Uncool, Duo.
I am very much AGAINST the new XP-system. I've also noticed that the leaderboards in the clubs are now almost dead.. We used to be at least 15 people in a friendly fight for the top. After the new XP-cap people are not using Duolingo and they don't even write or chat in the clubs. It is possible that the previous system had some flaws, but the new thing is a disaster... It is killing the owl.
My explanation: I really don't care anymore. I'm against because XP is a way to see where you're at in a language, and Duo moved the cheese again. But Duo has moved the cheese so many times now that I'm learning to set my own goals for learning, rather than using Duo's systems of XP/Crowns/Tree Completion.
Yes, there are a few people on my leaderboard that have massive XP every week. I've always assumed they're testing out of languages they already know just for fun. I honestly don't care. I never gave it a thought. Whatever, just keep new lessons and content coming in Spanish and German.
A lingot for you Angus, to compensate for those downvotes. It is becoming much like modern politics in the Duo forums.
Thanks. It was obviously a metaphor for "none of the above". A closed (binary) question without options for don't know/refused to answer/undecided/other sometimes requires voters to make a write-in answer. :)
The poll assumes that everyone will fall into the category of for or against. That's a false dichomotomy. The excluded middle may very well be in a majority, and likely will not even notice this poll. As far as I can tell, nothing has changed. I started catalá about 45 hours ago. Almost two days. I haven't tested out yet, and I may or may not. The option to test out is still there. It will still unlock skills below. The option to take a placement test when I start a course is still there, and its ability to place me correctly will not have been changed by the number of points I get. The number of crowns I get and the length of time it will take me to get the tree golden will be the same, no matter the number of points it gives me. And, most importantly, my ability to read, write, speak, and understand Catalan will not be affected by the number of points I get. So you can give me zero XP or a million, or anywhere in-between. It won't matter.
If you (as you seem) have got all the crown levels of the courses you have completed, and have just started a new language of which you have (I presume) no prior knowledge—of course this matter is understandably irrelevant to you at present. I might as well find a thread complaining about some change in the Android app and complain that the discussion is operating under a false dichotomy because I don't use an Android device and am in no way concerned.
Nothing in the wide world is affected by how many XP anyone gets except the self-consistency of DL's extrinsically-meaningless, gameified ecosystem, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be self-consistent.
Brilliantly put, garpike. I would add that the crown system is as extrinsically meaningless as the XP system, so I fail to see the logic in attaching importance to achieving a "golden tree", while regarding XP as an irrelevance.
I'd like vote against. It's disappointing to not have that major boost after learning a skill.
I strongly disagree with the change as it removes any motivation for me to regain a golden tree (L5) in languages which already had a golden tree before.
This was especially important for me, as I used Duolingo after completion more as a tool to not forget the language. This is barely possible anymore with the last updates.
Big XP made testing-out fun, even if "it doesn't matter". I'm reluctant to test-out now in case the change is reversed. I'm frustrated by the fact that this change appears to be driven by leaderboards; I don't think many people care about those - I only discovered their existence two weeks ago when playing around with the mobile app.
Against it - worst update choice. Started using a different language app last night.
From what I understand, they needed to fix how the leagues tallied scores for people and instead decided to fix that with a brutally clumsy hammer blow of ruining on how XP has worked for people for so long.
To be clear: I'm against this decision. I think that there is value in being able to push ahead of a lesson if it is too easy, but I think that speaks to experience with the given skills. This PENALIZES real knowledge of a language skill.
Also, since it is clear that they may not respect the opinions of the users, perhaps it is time to start using a motivation that they will respect: after my "Plus" subscription is up, I will not renew.
There were other/different ways to do this, but this is demotivational.
Against. Canceling my Plus directly because of it.
My girlfriend and I are in the same Spanish class, we compete on Duolingo for fun while we learn in class. For at least a day afterwards, I was stuck getting between 0 and 20xp, while she was still getting full xp for testing out. Now I'm stuck behind forever, even though we've completed exactly the same skills to exactly the same level.
How is that reasonable?
I'm against it. It's taken the fun out of doing Duo and taken away the joy of getting to level up on the various languages I'm doing. It's going to take for ever and a day to level up on anything at a maximum of 20 points per session.
against, absolutely. now it feels like I'm paying for daring to study outside the app. I don't need that negativity in my life.
Exactly how I feel. I was going to move on to languages that use different scripts like Russian, Korean, or Japanese by studying outside and doing teasers on Duolingo but now I'm reconsidering that. Once I make my whole tree gold in French, I plan to delete the app. It's no fun and I might as well do it the old fashioned way.
Against. All the way. Praying that they’re going to respond to the concerns that so many of us have.
t like this update at all ( but im not sure, that Duolingo will fix it :((
Boo on XP caps! I usually test out of the lessons due to a combination of skill and knowledge. This change is going to force me to reduce my daily goal to 20XP/day since 30XP requires me to test out of two lessons now. Not happy at all.
By the way does anyone else believe the word 'against' doesn't look like a word anymore when you have read it too many times?
Have been participating in a leader board with friends who were able to accumulate XP by testing out. It's been a motivating factor to try to catch up but with this recent cap of 20 XP, there is less motivation to use Duolingo. Will likely use Duolingo less as a result.
Against. If it's information that I already have a baseline for and can test out of it, why should I be penalised for that? If I don't know enough to test out, I will go and do the full lessons - so testing out vs. doing the full lessons hasn't impacted my learning. If each person is presumably doing what works best for them than they shouldn't be penalised. If they think testing out doesn't actually accurately test the skills of the full level they should alter the tests or test out of some of the skills but not all.
I'm against it. Finishing the course while not being able to level up to a maximum level and probably never being able to get to Level 25 because of learning faster but earning 100 XP per 5 level lessons instead of hundreds of XP when going the slower route doesn't make a lot of sense to me and it's demotivating to not get to the finish line. So XPs to me are just a means to get to Level 25. I'm not interested in leaderboards and charts and competition with others, but I do care about competing with myself and finishing everything while still being engaged in the course because I can choose to move at my own pace and the material is still new enough to keep me there.
You have a streak of 474 days, so you've been around and consistently studying since before crowns and before testing out of them was available, right?
Back then there were only a fifth of the tests available as there are now and a tenth of the lessons. Finishing the tree didn't get you anywhere near level 25, you made up the difference with other sources of xp but mainly through strengthening decayed skills. Was a difficult to attain level 25 discouraging back then?
You don't have to go the slower route, just test out and do practices consistently and you still end up ahead. The lesson-by-lesson approach awards so much XP because it incorporates review that you don't get anymore from strengthening. A lower reward for testing out is supposed to make review a major source of XP again.
I am massively demotivated from continuing my Esperanto studies on Duolingo from this. It was bad enough when the Android app started CHARGING me lingots for tests, but now this. I didn't think seeing that big number was that important to me, but it actually was. If this was a move to fix leaderboards, then my personal opinion is that those had no business existing in the first place.
I will likely move to Lernu and do the course there. I hear it's better anyway.
Strongly against. I am skeptical that this poll will be heard and affect change, but I applaud your optimism and especially your effort in tabulating the results, so thank you, SilentShuffle.
I'm against it. It's taken the fun out of doing Duo and taken away the joy of getting to level up. Just do testing out harder( or longer) but do not cut XP.
Against. Knowing how some of the lessons look like here on Duo, it will make learning other languages too boring for me to give a damn.
I'm against the cap. Especially at the 20 xp max it appears to have been set to.
I'm against it. It makes it so much harder to achieve level 25, it is demotivating, it takes so much longer to get the full worth out of a skill, and is just flat out ridiculous.
Not even fewer points, just fewer points up front. Test out and then practice for as long as it would take to do the lessons, you end up ahead.
I do not like this update. I liked the motivation. I might as well go back to textbooks.
In a word: Against.
A bit of explanation: I'm against it being nerfed on a personal level, as I don't think it serves any helpful purpose for learning or user retention to do so and there's clearly a not-insignificant number of people who are motivated by the XP numbers.
I'm in favor of nipping in the bud absurd exploitation of the leaderboards, if we are going to have them in place. Whether that be through nerfing the amount of XP you get from testing out, as it relates to leaderboards (without affecting personal XP gain), or attempting to prevent exploitation through some other approach, I'm definitely behind trying to make leaderboards a more reasonable experience, if they are going to be a part of the app.
Very much against that change. It completely also changed my entire opinion of the Duolingo management, that they would implement such a sweeping change without asking the general population of users (some of you obviously longstanding and loyal) whether they would like the change, AND without bothering to explain -- and I mean in DETAIL -- what led them to take the action they did.
I only have a few more lessons to go in French (I am at level 25 already), but I'm damned if I'll slog through another language at 20 XP per testout. First, they ask us to treat the XP rewards as significant, and then they just yank the ability to earn those rewards in our lifetimes right out from under us.
Very typical of the kind of software decision-making made by twenty-somethings.
I test out of levels in Spanish for several reasons: - I'm a completionist and I like my gold tree (I miss the old gold tree but it's much too late for that). - I am very familiar with Spanish (although nowhere near fluent). I can go several lessons without learning new vocabulary, but again, I like my gold tree. - Testing out shows that I am proficient with the lesson - especially the grammar, where I tend to get stuck. - When I go back to my non-Spanish languages, I will try to test out of level 4, /because/ I see testing out as proof of proficiency. - Tests are long enough that I feel like I've gone over the lesson, but short enough that I'm not doing the same thing twenty times.
The xp reward isn't a giant deal to me, but since I only do lessons on crown 0 (crown 1 sometimes if it isn't sticking, which I notice when I'm consistently failing the first test), will I even be able to get to level 25 by the end of my tree?
Against, though I like the suggestions of some others that say a different value cap would be reasonable (either sliding through the levels 20-30-40-50 or a slightly higher amount like 50 or 100 XP).
Admittedly I didn't make it through all of the comments below, but I do wonder if smaller lessons with fewer available points (as happened recently with the additions to the Spanish tree) isn't the answer. For example, if no unit has more than 5 lessons, then a cap of 50 XP works as reasonable and motivates better.
Just a thought.
I'm against. It's not a bad thing but 20 is too low, especially when your testing out of 20 lessons.
Against. I use Duolingo mainly to refresh language knowledge or to learn languages similar to mine. Use testing out a lot. And testing is hard. Not worth all that effort just for 20 xp regardless of level.I do full lessons but only for new languages I cannot work out.
Against! When making a second run to increase the crown level normally I gain nothing from redoing some easy subjects. Giving full XP is a recognition I mastered that subject.
TBH, I'm against the whole push of the site to become a PVP game. It's completely demotivating to me. I'm much more of a PVE person, I am here to learn because I want to learn and the XP pushes me to compete with myself for improvement. I'm not here to compete with other people's experiences - that does nothing to help me learn. So essentially every update Duo has made since I joined 6 months ago has pushed the site downhill for me.
Very against. I wrote an entire post laying out my reasons for my opposition.
Against. If you show that you know the material, you should get the appropriate experience.
I’m against the new XP cap for test out. I tried to complete a couple of modules by finishing one by one of the levels and was just so frustrated that I had to test out at level 5 (and some of them had like 20 levels!) with a measly 20XP, sigh.
it is just simple math. If I do 12 lessons at 10 points each I should get 120 points. If I test out of a level that is comprised of 9 lessons, testing out should give me 90 points. I dont really care about the leaderboard.
I'm against this change. Please search my username to read the comment I made above. Thanks for giving us an opportunity to vote. Perhaps when admin sees this landslide they might reconsider.
Casting a vote against the xp policy. I can see where they are coming from though. There is concern about abusing the test out feature. But having to repeat identical exercises over and over and lengthening the time it takes to get to level 25 by an order of magnitude really is too much.
I in fact suggested a poll/vote like this on a previous discussion, so props to you for making it happen, and the results confirm my beliefs, as six times as many people have voted against than for.
I think that all this is doing is demoralizing us, when what they (Duolingo) should be doing is motivating us to move forward. Giving us 1/10th of the XP that we should get to go from level 4 to level 5 when we take a very hard test versus just slogging for eternity just seems stupid. Duolingo has been slipping steadily since getting rid of Immersion (their initial main focus), including breaking two of their three main tenets (no ads, no subscriptions) and helping app people more than web people (extra lingot chests, fun clubs, etc.) when web people were the original Duolinguists just disappoints me in more ways than one. You deserve a lingot.
Thanks WCGB! Agree with everything you've said. I personally miss the challenge of the old system when we had four lives per lesson, but I think I'm in the minority on that one!
The question I have is this: Why does Duolingo care how people use the platform? It is well-known that people have different learning styles, different motivations, and different interest levels for learning a language. Why can't Duo simply accept the corollary: that people will use the site differently? I vote AGAINST the cap, since it appears that it is affecting many people negatively.
If the goal of this change is to encourage learning (and ad revenue) and discourage "cheating" by testing out of lessons to score points on the leaderboard, then it would be better to rank people on the leaderboards by the number of lessons they complete in a week as a measure of "effort". Make a credit system, where 1 lesson = 1 credit, or 1 test out = 2 credits since it's easier to fail. Credits would thus be tied to effort, while EXP would be tied to skill level and experience. Individuals could still hit their daily EXP goal by testing out of a skill with many lessons, but they would not be rewarded in the leaderboards for it.
That's basically what the system has been changed to (1 lesson = 10EXP, testing out = 20 EXP), except now it punishes users who don't care about the leaderboard.
I guess really the problem is that leaderboards are tied to EXP, but EXP isn't tied to the leaderboards. Separating the two systems would alleviate a lot of the problems they seem to be trying to address with this change.
I'm against it. I thought it was a mistake but a little sooner i realized that it was a new update. I really hope they will change it back to normal.
definitely against, it was really motivating to see the XP go up and feel how big the step we took is, but now i feel that going through step 1 is the same as going through step 4, it's very demotivating!
Against at least until Duolingo can figure out a more accurate placement test. I took two years of Spanish 20 years ago and still remember most of it. When I started using this app I tested out of a bunch of levels until I was at the right level to challenge me. Otherwise I would have given up out of boredom. If people can successfully test out they should be credited for knowing the material.
I will agree that getting lots of points for testing out gives an unfair advantage in the Clubs, which I was shamelessly exploiting to stay ahead of my sister. :)
TOTALLY against this change. I really wish there was a way to tell duolingo staff members to undo that update.
Against. Almost lost my streak because of it the other day. (I'm at 30xp per day)
Since the Test-out XP cap, I reduced my daily goal to 1xp and only did 1 lesson per day. I'd like to say that I am not strongly discouraged about studying German on Duolingo, but I truly am. I believe there are much better ways to study than doing those repetitive lessons, yet I still felt encouraged because of the game-like experience. It's not as if it felt like I was competing with someone, but it really felt rewarding to reach level 4 on each skill and then test out for level 5. Duolingo never was the main material for me to study German, and if it doesn't feel satisfying to "play" it, I'll stick with other options.
I get the point of this update, but I tested out of 84 skills on a placement test and it gave me 100 XP. That's just ridiculous. A native speaker could only get 100 XP by testing out of a whole language.
"Also be aware that those who are against it might be more prone to come to the forum to complain compared to those who support it. "
Very true, those happy are very less likely to come to the forum and vote. If duolingo really wanted to know what people thought, thou would need to survey random people at the site.
Against! anyone for the change needs to give me a damn good reason because so far there have been none
Isn't it about LEARNING not points. I think the repitition without being able to jump over your set daily task is MUCH more beneficial in the long run. It depends on whether one is treating it as an on line game or learning and REMEMBERING what you've learned.
exactly, it is about learning, so i will still use the test out regardless of the points i get
but it's the same damn sentences each level, and i do not want to sit there for an hour slogging out 20 lessons on the same damn sentence i have already memorised including the mistakes (of which there are a lot in the chinese course)
so now, i do not get rewarded for being a quicker learner than other people
like you said, it depends on whether a person is treating it as a game or as a learning tool. if you were very serious about learning you would do each lesson piece by piece to make sure it is drilled into your head. that is your responsibility and good for you if you choose to do that. for some people like me it takes less time to drill it in.
but taking away the rewards from other people who treat it as a game and force them to do it the way other people do is absurd. it is not duolingo's choice for how we decide to learn
I am against the change and I wish they'd let the learner learn the way he/she wants to. If it's not about points, then eliminate them altogether, don't screw around with them. Putting a cap of 20 points for completing a test when you could earn hundreds of points by slogging your way through every single lesson does not make any sense.
For learners who want or need to do every lesson, fine, that's their decision. For learners who don't, the tests used to provide a motivation to move more quickly.
You can still make that choice but not get extra points for it ? I use both. At times after one or two sessions I test out because I have understood the process.
Hey now guys, it's all just an opinion on stuff that doesn't even exist in reality
you say that but in the same concept then duolingo doesn't even exist in reality, and neither does your comment.
Well ok-- but that's the same argument for the health/heart system, isn't it? And "binging"? Shouldn't that be up to the learner to decide? People are going to play it like a game either way-- that's the point in some ways.
Exactly. If it were just about learning and not about points, there would be no hearts and there would be no XPs at all. The problem seems to be that Duo is having a hard time figuring out how much gamification they want. I can understand that, but it would have been helpful if they had given us a heads-up about the change and the reasons they did it.
TBH I say Duolingo is fine the way it is and that it really is just a jumping off point-- it's not really for the hardcore polyglots really.
I don't think points really matter, I just miss the old feeling I got when leveling up in the past when I did languages I have now abandoned.
Against, even if it isn't for the leagues I just like seeing 300 xp gained in one go
Against! Whatever I do in whatever field, first and foremost I want to play, even though I don't mind learning new languages and stuff in the process ;)
Rather against it. I'm way more used to a learning pace where I test-out lessons and only decide not to when I struggle with it, and it's quite disappointing to get limited xp for it.
Against. I am more in the middle of the spectrum than I used to be, but I still wouldn't mind if it went back.
But Duo is planning on bringing leagues to the pc, which would make it unfair. So unfortunately I think it's going to stay like this.
I'm more in the middle than I was when I first found out about it. Reading other people's comments about why they're in favor of it has been really helpful. I can see why earning huge numbers of XPs in a short period of time can seem unfair to some learners.
On the other hand, capping XPs for testing out seems to devalue the work of learners who are able to make rapid progress. Since the main objection seems to be from people who compete in leagues, it's too bad that there's not a way that the cap could be applied to anyone who's in a league, but leave the rest of us out of it. But that would be way too complicated and it's not going to happen.
Completely agree!! Very well put! I wish they could at least raise the cap to something like 50xp so the streaks would be satisfied.
That would be a good idea. I wasn't super into gaining tons of XP even though I don't blame others for wanting it because there's no way of knowing who is only doing it to get XP. My issue is that it messes with my streak and I'll have to spend more time on here trying to reach a daily goal which is annoying.
Again, I completely agree. I don't really care much about how much xp, but the streaks are so annoying now! I've already had to use 2 streak saves this week.
even though duo does not care (it was said on the last "update") I am definitely AGAINST...as I do not appreciate someone telling me how to study and I like to compete!
Against. But I'm sure Duolingo doesn't care. Edit: I'm seeing others suggest that they raise the XP to at least 50 to meet dailies. I think that would satisfy a lot of people who are against it while still managing XP grubbing.
I can understand that some people do not like to compete and just want to learn, so they do not care about the limit.
What I don't understand is why anyone would be in favour of the limit. If you want to compete in the leaderboards, then stop complaining and start competing.
"If you want to compete in the leaderboards, then stop complaining and start competing."
Which is why I voted For the cap. I joined clubs just before the leagues came out - the leaderboards aren't as competitive there, and doing a pile of lessons or the occasional test-out is enough to push the numbers up. That's why I miss the bigger points awards. Testing out just for leagues, then resetting the tree to repeat the process - that's a bigger problem, and I'm in favor of a change that corrects it, even if it hits me in the points department.
I'm against how drastic the change is, but I am for the general idea. I think the XP cap should be about 50.
Good idea Silent Shuffle. But I must warn you that duolingo cares little about what users think. I am definitely against this update that seems to demonize skipping "I am a boy " and "The elephant eats bread"
I can't understand why people seem to think they are entitled to diss Duolingo. No one is forcing you to participate .. and it's a very good FREE language course. . ? Confused ...
There is a distinction between "dissing" and constructive cricticism, which Duolingo's users – who either pay to subscribe or generate revenue for the site by viewing advertising on the app – are perfectly entitled to give.
It's free to go to jail too, we should not complain if they stick their fingers in our butts
Just because something is free doesn't mean you can't complain about it
I bet you would prefer more people use it and generate ad revenue otherwise it will not be free any longer
I slightly lean to being against the change, but personally I think the real problem is linking level to XP.
AFAIC the percentage of crowns collected would give a better indication of language level than the amount of XP earned.
Very against it.
Just charge lingots for a test out and we will have best of both worlds.
Excellent idea. As far as I can see, lingots are currently almost unusable.
No. I don't think it is fair to all of a sudden to spring it on us. If it started out like that then I think it would have been fine, but now it is harder to get XP now.
I agree that they should have at least let us know about it in advance. I thought the system wasn't working right or that I needed to refresh my browser, and it wasn't until I saw topics in the discussions that I found out it was a deliberate change.
Also, people are just speculating about why the change was made, with the most common theory being that it was to address some problems with Android leagues. But if Duo has data that showed that awarding full points for testing out was somehow interfering with learning, it would be helpful to know that, too.
After a day of using the new system, I'm starting to adjust to it, and by adjust, I mean I'm not paying much attention to the XPs.
Against. Once I felt confident enough with the lesson, I liked to fully test out, get the XP and move on. Now I feel less inclined to test out. It's not a major deal in my opinion, but I'm a little less compelled to test out now.
I wanted to give everyone who voted for against a like, but i guess there are too many at this point. I just want to ask those who voted for it, Why do you like it?
I think it would be fair to say you get less XP for testing out but caps wont work, maybe a percentage like getting half the xp for test outs
Sorry, only found this poll now. Totally against the capping and even more against the way they try to sell us the changes,
My opinion about the impact of DL is that they don't give rats ass. I unsubscribed to their appease post today because it made me sick to read the about the leaderboards. This has nothing to do with leaderboards, It's about ads, data and stats - about money.
Just found back some bookmarks with info for those DL users, who still think DL is philanthropic or non-profit.
and here an older one
I wonder how this developed. Amazing that they still find so many awesome volunteers.
I agree with indifferent. I was testing out often in my Spanish tree because my progress got muddled in the large tree update when Crowns were new, and I don’t think the XP cap is going to affect my learning at all, but I feel like 20xp is a little low. I feel like 50xp would have been a better value if they really felt like the cap was needed that badly. That’s why I lean more towards against, but I don’t feel frustrated or upset about the update. I mostly just don’t agree with the cap value. If the cap value was higher, I’d probably be more indifferent about it.
[Raises hand for team indifferent, but leaning towards for]
50XP sounds like a reasonable middle ground.
I have no stake in this, even as someone who almost exclusively tests out in my active languages. I finished the languages I'm serious about before crowns and do off-Duolingo study, so the tree is less useful for me unless all the content is unlocked. I'm going to keep testing out, but there's no reason I should get hundreds of XP for the same time and effort that a timed practice takes. I don't even look at my XP past making sure I met my daily goal.
I understand a big XP rush can be motivating and that reducing this can be disappointing, but that disappointment doesn't outweigh the problems with a big XP rush, which was a recurring topic on the forum for months. It's especially tipped with new developments like leagues and tests costing lingots. 50XP sounds like a good compromise.
I read your comment several times and you make some very good points. The more I think about it, the more I think just ignoring the XPs (except to maintain the streak) is probably the best approach. I'm not even sure if maintaining the streak is really helpful, since it mainly serves to bring out one's OCD, and probably does not actually improve one's language learning.
20XP to test out to level 2. 30XP to test out to level 3. 40XP to test out to level 4. 50XP to test out to level 5. 50XP for finishing.
Very much true. People who are against something do tend to be much more vocal about it.
One is better off searching for posts concerning the subject, but as a good number of them have been given fivers and/or deleted, even that count is skewed.
Volgav vitsenanieff nivya kevach varatsach.
Why is level 25 so important? It’s an arbitrary number, which was rendered even more meaningless by inflated XP through testing out. And reaching level 25 is meant to be hard. It was never meant to be reached within a couple of months.
Just read and watched a video about a guy quitting because he is not willing to invest an additional 100 days to reach 25 after racing through 22 levels within two months. I really have to wonder about the priorities here.
Of all the counters DL uses (skill levels, crowns, golden trees, owls, XP), XP is by far the least important and least related to your actual language skills.
Which is precisely why I can't understand why people are making such a big deal out of it. It's not like you (a general 'you') can't test out at all or anything; the button still exists and still works exactly as it should. And if people feel less inclined to test out because of the cap - good! That's exactly what it was supposed to do.
If you want more XP, use the general Practice button. If you really know the material, the practice is a piece of cake - AND you get more points for that than doing the lessons. You're not getting negative XP for testing out, you're simply getting less. That's not punishment, that's disincentive. There's a good difference between them.
Getting more XP for doing less seems to me like one is cheating oneself of the practice for getting that XP, which is to me the far greater of the two crimes. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Volgav vitsenanieff nivya kevach varatsach.
I look at this as a social experiment that gives interesting data. I find it interesting to realize how I myself am pissed about this small, practically insignificant change and especially the manner of its introduction. The bottom line is, people will continue using the app if they like it and stop using it if it becomes dull/annoying.
Testing out or not, you won't become fluent in a language with (only) Duolingo, not even get to around upper intermediate level.
Although there are people who claim to have become B2 in German (upper intermediate) with just DL. So who knows?
Volgav vitsenanieff nivya kevach varatsach.
Unfortunately in real life I've met a bunch of people claiming to speak certain languages fluently and when I tried to talk to them in those that I spoke decently, it turned out most of them were full of bs.
Of course, this was just a sample, but that's how people are, there are people who like to brag or just like to claim something for god knows what reason.
There's a huge gap between B2 and B1. To become lvl B2 in German (or anything) else you need to study from all sources, talk to native speakers almost daily and all that for a long time.
I actually lived in Austria myself for the sole purpose of learning German, when I didn't hang out with Austrians and Germans living there or spend time in classes with great teachers, I stayed home to study, read, watch TV, listen to the radio etc.
Some foreigners, my friends, living there who took the B2 level test at the Goethe Institute failed it even though I knew their German was objectively similar or better than mine, vocab, grammar, listening skills, reading, speaking, writing and all. And my German was pretty damn good even back then.
So if someone said to me they achieved B2 in any language with just DL you can imagine how I'd react. I'd basically just give my best not to be rude (since I know I couldn't keep quiet).
As in, took the test. And passed. With only DL.
That's really the only way they could've claimed to reach B2 in any case, for the exact reasons you named.
Volgav vitsenanieff nivya kevach varatsach.
@milanezi In fact it IS a social experiment, one with tons of data. They sure can have data from me and they got quite some unexpected after they blew up my 520+ streak for no reasons.since they didn't find a bigger than 1day streak, and I tossed more than 2000 lingots to the crowd. I am retired, I wanna enjoy every effing hour and day and they touched an object in my bucket list. I had a reasonable goal that now is out of reach. They decrease my pixie dust, I decrease their stats and data more. There is more fish in the sea than DL.
Although I voted "for" in this discussion, I kinda disagree that XP is the least important, when I click a profile, I see only someone's XP, not levels, not crowns. Besides, leaderboards and leagues are only decided by XP. As for language skills, it can vary. Grinding is useful for new learners. The proficient learners will have to go for testing out, finishing the tree quickly, then look for other language resources. I don't think DL has much for proficient learners.
I could go either way. I guess I see both sides. If I had to pick one, I'd say for makes the most sense. I test out a bit just to move ahead in my Spanish tree and I honestly don't care. It makes more sense for XP contests too. Everyone puts in the same amount of time and work to get the same number of points. That way, someone who already knows stuff doesn't have an advantage or a disadvantage to someone who doesn't.
Against (as it is now).
But I would be favorable to a cap if it were raised to 100 XP.
Am I missing something about a change? I've tried 4 times to finish the last lesson in a set today and it just hangs up without completing. I've tried resetting everything internet and computer wise. Really p'g me off. Better not be something Duolingo has put in. I get SO bored with their repetition. They could at least bring back vocabulary from previous sets or make longer more creative sentences. I'm too close to end to quit on it, but I'm starting to dislike the program more each level.
Care to explain what XP cap actually is? Cannot be for or against something when i have no clue what it is
All of the "for" votes had -1 votes (I brought them back up to 0 just because) which says something.
Someone must've dropped them all down one. All the against posts have +1...
Yeah! Now they're evening out. I guess which ever side is with the majority, the opposite side will probably have less votes.
"If you are casting a vote, please also upvote this thread so it gains some visibility. Thanks! Please be respectful and do not downvote or upvote other people's votes. If you notice votes with − or +, please help to ensure they all stay at 0 (thank you to everyone who has done this so far!)."
Fair enough, but how do I "upvote this thread"? How do I "ensure they all stay at zero" if I "do not downvote or upvote other people's votes?
I initially asked people to upvote this thread to ensure people would see the poll. Now that's no longer an issue.
A few users are systematically downvoting every opinion that runs contrary to their own. Hence the request that other users countervote to ensure that neither "for" or "against" votes are relegated to the bottom of the thread.
"Like" the OP's post and a give him a lingot (unless you're saving them for an early retirement).
I am neither for or against, I am just looking at it from a logical point of view and see two things, and one problem with trying to poll people like this.
1 XP for each question answered seems appropriate, and in line with any other game in existence. You get 2 points for each basket in basketball (3 for a more difficult shot), and you do not get points for demonstrating you can make a layup, you just get the two points. The same in video games. If you are in a match against people weaker than you in Halo, you get one point for each kill, you do not get 25 points and a win for demonstrating you can kill them. And in Final Fantasy, you get 3 XP for every imp you kill, you do not get 150 XP for demonstrating you can kill them. It makes sense and matches up to the "gamification" aspect of the app.
To my understanding there are more changes coming with the addition of new leaderboards. This change is to go in collaboration with that addition. Without everyone having access to every single change, it is impossible to tell if the change is positive or negative for you at this time. It is entirely possible that the Leaderboard platform is still not ready to roll out to everyone, and there are still some changes that need to be worked out, but this was one they could implement now, so it made full integration much easier in the future. It is completely impossible to judge a segment of a possible bigger change outside of the whole.
This is an extremely flawed method. There has been a lot of contention around this topic, and the people who feel strongly against it have been extremely vocal. The vast majority of users have not said a word about it. The general rule is that people who feel strongly about something are more likely to speak out about it, regardless of where it is. On a scale of 1-5, typically only the 1s and the 5s typically respond. The 2-4 don't respond nearly as often, because they don't care as much. Based on what people have said as they are in "favor" of this change, they feel more like 3s and 4s rather than 5s and will respond at a much lower rate.
But to follow the rules of the thread, count my vote as however you feel it should be. I would guess it is a for the change, but I honestly don't care outside of the logic and struggling to understand why people are so passionate about this issue.
Please add a third option:
"I do not care"
This will have one vote for sure, mine, as I do not care about numbers (xp, levels, streak, crowns) i.e. playing a game. I am here only to learn a language.
I acknowledge that other people may have different motivation to language learning or even different goals for being here.
I vote in this poll because I believe that Duolingo has a lot of areas to improve that have nothing to do with gamefication of the platform and given that there only limited time and resources, work should be better concentrated there.
SilentShuffle: Thanks for setting up the poll, for responding to my earlier request for guidance in voting up and down, and for providing the link to Duolingo's response.
Now that HelpfulDuo is eliciting comments, I am moving my attention to that and no longer will follow this discussion ("following" overloaded my email). Didn't want to slip away before expressing my thanks.
Very thoughtful of you mmcdermo! I think on that note, I will now close the poll. Given that Duolingo has responded, I'd say that this poll has run its course.
Couldn’t have said it better. Many thanks to you for being courageous enough to speak up on a topic which many of us obviously had varying opinions about.
Ahahhhaah it is so funny!! Never thought there are so many people interested in this xD maybe its only a hype!! And hype makes business
why do so many people seem to hate the duo staff/coordinators so much? if u don't like them why do you complain why cant u use something else or just acknowledge the fact that the duo staff are always working really hard to make it better and cant do everything instantly?
Hey, instead of asking the users a question and scanning the comments for answers, why not actually make a voting system to take polls. Like asking a question and giving options which the users can choose and will show you a percentage. It would be much more convenient instead of guessing.
You don't want to read this, but I'll write it anyway:
The majority of the user base does not care about Testing Out XP Caps. We are here to learn languages, not to skip lessons. But I do understand now why there are so many Users with level 25s while I am working on my Spanish tree for the last four years, still being at level 22.
Look about it this way: You complain about your gamification element being gone. You cared about levels and XPs, and suddenly you can't get them anymore so easily. But behold: Which game lets you skip a dungeon and dishes out the loot without you playing through the dungeon? Leveling my Pokémon to Lv 100 would be the easiest thing in the world if every time I enter the Elite 4 a message appears: "You have already beaten the Elite 4 once, do you want to skip ahead?" and I click Yes and every of my Pokémon gains 50k XP. Games don't work like this, why should Duolingo's gamification do so?
We're here to learn languages. Gamification is a huge factor in Duolingo's success, but testing out just to get XP doesn't lead to very effective learning.
The problem is that it's impossible to know if people are testing out "just to get XP". Some of us do it because it's a faster, more effective way to review material we already know from having learned it elsewhere.
If Duo has data that shows that those who test out are not learning and/or retaining as much as those who do each individual lesson, then OK, that's a valid reason for changing things. But what I'm reading is that it was done to satisfy those who compete in leagues.
I'll continue to use the test-out option, because I don't care that much about XPs, but it does not seem logical to award more points to someone who completes 30 individual lessons than to someone who is able to complete them by testing out.
I agree. I started Duolingo for Spanish while I was taking Spanish in college. So I've learned a lot of the early things in class, and I was testing out of those because it wasn't really helping me to do each lesson. It was getting boring, which made me less inclined to do them, not more. Testing out allows me to skip over material that I know.
Maybe a cap on the number of times you can try to test out, or requiring that after every failed attempt you have to do a lesson or two before you can try again would cut down on people racing through when they aren't really learning.
So why do they remove the game components from it. Duo is not popular because it's effective in teaching languages (anyone who has become fluent, for real fluent, in a new language knows why and it's no shocker), but because it's more fun than the other apps and because it's more fun than other apps - and most importantly, it's free.
Get to level 23 on a language now, I dare you :) Heck, with no deadline, just get there whenever you get. Then we can talk about if it's a game or rather a chore.
I am FOR the change.
Why? Because test out xp breaks the leagues. As an example, I'm in the gold league now (third tier). In order to get there, I had to place in the top 10 out of 50 people in two previous leagues. To get promoted I barely finished 10th twice, and 20th or so in 2-3 other rounds. Below are the top 3 places in my league right now. Remember that these people had to be in the top 10 in two different leagues already to be in this league.
1 - 2,200 points (out of this person's 5,550 total points earned) 2 - 1,550 points (out of 42,840 total) 3 - 1,420 points (out of 4,780 total)
For comparison, I'm currently 23rd with 250 points after 3.75 days. to be in 10th place, I would need 560 points. 46th place (highest rank facing demotion to the second tier silver league) has 80 points.
The first and third place people are what typically happens. Someone comes in brand new, tests out of a bunch of skills, and gets the reward lingots. And when you look at their points totals, they are people who have earned most of their points in just a few weeks. If I was just losing to people like the person in second place, I wouldn't be as demotivated. That's someone that has earned their place. But the first and third people look like people that just created an account so they could win.
I see the point of the people voting against, it just doesn't apply to me because of my style of using Duolingo.
Om veta dem mer av språket, varför ska de inte vara på topplistan? Det är en belöning för att arbeta hårt för att lära sig språket.
De här folk som testar ut från de färdigheter kommer att inte stanna på topplistan för länge - när de har testat utifrån de färdigheter de vet skulle de släppar till lägre ligor när det är slut.
Också har du möjlighet att göra detsamma. Om du är inte på den här nivå än - varför ska du vara på topplistans höga?
(Jag skriver endast på svenska på alla språksinlärning aktiviter - använder google översättning om du förstår inte)
En nedröstning är inte ett argument.
For. I've explained my thoughts in other posts.
Volgav vitsenanieff nivya kevach varatsach.
i am for it. If you are competing in a group and someone can just bang a 200 points jump by testing out while others have to do it 10 points at a time it is unfair.
BTW, I am on my second time through after a reset and having done learning english from spanish as well and restarting it, so the 200 point test outs are as easy as the level 3 for me. Keep it.
Is there a way to vote neutral? I do not bother myself with petty thoughts such as these.
If you can't fly then run, if you can't run then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward. Martin Luther King, Jr
For. Maybe the test-out cap could be a little higher, like 40 or 50 XP, but this is in line with how Duolingo worked until crowns were introduced.
"This is in line with how Duolingo worked until crowns were introduced"
Say it louder. For 5 years, people were making it to level 25 slowly just fine. Then a mere 10 months ago it got sped up exponentially faster. Just 11 months ago, people generally finished their trees in the late teens or early 20s levels, then they made it up to level 25 by reviewing. You could only test out once per skill, and that only got you 10XP. XP was nobody's main motivation but we were doing fine.
Now people are saying they don't feel like finishing with tests because they won't get all the XP up front, even people who are already at level 25 and are just adding excess XP. Maxing out stopped being something that took months of review and started being something you could race towards. Maybe that was problematic and needed adjustment.
I love how the first comments I see have some kind of vote . . ., but I'm kinda neutral about it, it all depends on how you look upon it really . . .
Is there a "I honestly could not give a rat's ash" option? 'Cause I would totally vote for that.
I am here to learn some languages, and frankly I find much of the anguish expressed over this worst-tragedy-ever to be humorous. I bet you will as well once you get some distance from this.
I'll all for the change they made as I was finding it discouraging the huge amounts of XP people were getting when Im working so very hard to get the little amounts I get while I learn.
I think the ones who are outraged at the change are actually more likely to vote in a poll.
I understand what you're saying, and it's been very helpful for me to read everyone's thoughts about this. While testing out is faster, it is also harder, because you don't get any drop-down translations.
Testing out also encouraged me to review languages I've studied elsewhere, and in the process, I learned a great deal that I didn't already know, but I did not have to go through every single lesson to learn it.
After reading these comments, I'm going to try to be open-minded about it and see how it works out. There's nothing I can do to change it anyway, and I'm not going to abandon Duolingo just because of this.
A lingot for the "Testing out also encouraged me to review languages I've studied elsewhere, and in the process, I learned a great deal that I didn't already know, but I did not have to go through every single lesson to learn it"
tiny cards as an application, needs a lot of work...I use them now and then, but they are sooo basic, so ONE WAY
For the change. I just tested out of a group and noticed the change. I think it depends on what you want to reward the work going into learning or the prior knowledge of a language or a similar language.
The best way to handle this is too have two scores. One would be the amount of work you have put into this and another is the level of understanding of a language.
Duolingo is here to help people learn languages. The test out function is to help you find the right level to learn at as a convenience. It isn't the teaching mechanism. Why should more points be awarded for prior knowledge than for knowledge being actually aquired? The points are there to motivate learning but when they are awarded in a disproportionate manner it makes one reluctant to do the activities for which you get fewer points, ie the way the points used to be awarded made people less likely to do the lessons. This change isn't about punishing people for testing out it about not punishing people for doing the lessons.
All you people moaning about getting fewer points should turn the situation over in your head and see how it feels to both want to earn enough points to compete and do the lessons to learn the languages thoroughly. It is fine for someone who learned a language elsewhere to walz in here and test out but those of us learning from scratch need to do the lessons without being penalised for it. When we put in as much time as others do but get far fewer points for it that is an unfair disincentive.
The test out function is still there, there just isn't an incentive to use it too soon anymore.
Exactly this. An XP cap makes it a test for course exemption, not course credit.
At the college I went to, Bachelor of Arts degrees required intermediate proficiency in a foreign language. There were different ways to fulfill this requirement, some resulting in course credit and some resulting in course exemption. Obviously, taking classes up to the intermediate level gave course credit, and so did transferring credits earned at another school. Taking a placement test could either confirm that you're already proficient enough to not need any classes, or exempt you from the introductory courses which would normally be prerequisites for more difficult courses. You wouldn't receive credits for what you were exempt from because you didn't take those classes. If your specific major required a certain number of foreign language credits and you tested out of classes, you still need to take classes even if you demonstrated intermediate proficiency, you'd either have to earn those through advanced courses or take another language. You don't take the test to fill-in 12 out of the 120 credits you need to graduate, you take the test to determine where you start and free up your schedule later on for other subjects. It's fair to people who can't test out because credits aren't awarded for not taking classes, and it's fair to people who can test out because they don't have to waste time on what they already know.
It's not like you take the test and you won't ever get XP anymore, you take the test and keep earning XP from there like anyone else. Testing out doesn't put anyone behind people going through the lessons, you just don't get it all up front. 20XP from testing out followed by practice for the same amount of time as it takes to go through the lesson yields just as much XP as going through the lessons, if not more. A higher XP cap like 50 or even 100 wouldn't be unreasonable just as a bonus, but the jump of several hundred XP for high crown levels is disproportionate and reduces incentive to go back and practice.
For. I've been competing in XP with my friends and I had been trying to complete the course--or at least get far--without testing out (I started taking tests a couple of months ago). They were getting up to 40x more the XP in the same amount of time. IMO people who don't like this change are just used to more XP. They needed to fix this at some point and it was never going to be a smooth transition. Tests were never meant for what they are now (I think); they were supposed to be used for when you already knew the language and needed to skip ahead.
I think that getting more XP from it was nice, but Duolingo does what it either needs, or wants to do, and we can't change that!
What exactly do you mean by "XP Test Out Cap"? Duo has always had a cap on XP test out points.
Are you referring to the new 20 point limit on test out? If so, I am all in favor of it. Simplifies everything.
I´d like to see Duo award more (any) points for length of successive days on course.
My vote: I don't care either way.
Not trying to be difficult and purposefully vote different, but I really don't care and think others may have that opinion as well.
Here's my thought: If you know the material well enough already without reviewing it then you aren't doing the equivalent work it would take to learn them individually so why should you get the same amount of points? This of course only matters if you care about points more than learning the language itself. By disincentivizing the big lot of points you get for testing out they are encouraging those same people to earn more points by actually working through the language and becoming better students. I know that I have been able to test out of certain skills without really mastering that lesson and if we're chasing points then we end up with lots of points but not as much understanding, which is why we're here. Of course there is the capitalistic approach of Duolingo that says if you work your way through each lesson you have more chance of needing plus as an added feature so that you don't run out of health and can keep learning which I love. If you can't pay the small fee for this service then you shouldn't complain about the amazing free resource this is on it's own.
If you can pass the tests, doesn't that imply that you've already done the work and you should get credit. When I tested out of three languages at Berkeley, I got full credit for my knowledge. It's not Captialism LOL, it's fairness within a system that a lot of us got used to. The cap was a stupid decision.
It would imply that you know the material already not that you put the work in on here. And as I mention that only matters if you’re concerned about points which it seems many ppl are...smh.
My comment on capitalism is that they want more money. This is a great resource but they will always be able to make it better if ppl are paying into the system which to me it seems they are designing quite well. And Duo is still giving away much more content to free users than almost any other company in this space.
It’s just hard for me to take complainers of a free product seriously. Especially as it relates to fake points in a virtual world. When I go to my German HQ to speak with them I can either communicate or not. No one there is interested in how many points I earned on my way to language learning.
Indifferent. My goal is having fun learning languages and I don't need Xp's for that. :-)
Indifferent mostly. Doesn't affect me personally because I don't test out. I can, to a certain extent, understand the people who are complaining about it but I also see the Duolingo logic behind the decision.
If I really have to pick between against and for, than I would rather say I am for the XP cap since it will force users to use the app more.
FOR (reluctantly...) Initially I was against this as found it annoying but then I realised that it helped make me aware that language learning wasn't a game and moreover you still get a lingot if you get everything right which counts for than XP for me... However, the only annoying thing is that now achieving awards such as 100XP in one day will be much harder to achieve for new users.
So many whine threads about the nerf. I honestly don't understand all the fuss about these meaningless numbers. It changes nothing in the studying process, why do so many people care so much? Finish your study for today quickly and go play some MMORPG if you want numbers.
I don't care about this at all, but I vote FOR. It appeared to me as a cheater's way to earn XP.
That's a fair question about why people care so much, but since the change seems to be a response to complaints from people who compete in leagues, why do they care so much? If the XPs are meaningless (and I think you're probably right about that), aren't they meaningless no matter the context?
I have a study method, in which this new update makes things easier.
In my study method, I have to keep my languages at the same level, so if I would pass a level and win a crown that would mean gaining a lot of xp, so that wouldn't be an option for me.
So with this new update I can pass a level and win a crown without affecting my study method, since now it is now 20 xp. So it is a good update for me.
Either write an answer to the question or just don't write anything. Don't just write 'hi' to attract attention!