https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jiri.pohnl

Czech from English - translations

Jsem zděšen, kdo vytvářel "kurz: Czech from English" Toto jsem měl v rozřazovacím textu.. (co tam bylo - správně by mělo být)

Maj novýho souseda - Mají nového souseda

Pudem někam jinam - Půjdeme někam jinam

a perlička na závěr....

Von votevřel vosum voken - On otevřel osm oken

jsem silně zklamaný...

March 15, 2019

13 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nueby

Yeah, you called?

Instead of getting yourself in a tizzy, consider whether it may be useful to show the main features in which common Czech systematically differs from the standard. In my opinion, it does make sense after the user has been sufficiently exposed to the standard, which I would say by the time they get to the final skill they have been as much as they will ever be when it comes to Duo.

The vast majority of users never get that far. Those few who do then get a bonus-like final skill as a parting gift. Maybe it lets them be better prepared for actually using the language in practice, even if it is nothing more than watching Czech movies.

Blowback from indignant natives seems to me a fair price to pay. We kind of suspect that most of them do not use the standard in their private lives either.

May you recover from your pain and suffering without any lasting damage.

March 15, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BoneheadBass

I love that this is in English...

March 16, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChristophS49077

As encouraging as it was, that the skill was just called "What the?!", I regret, that I finished the whole tree on level 1 first, just to know, what it was about. While it was/is interesting, I then faced the problem, that this skill occurred in my practices and only made it more confusing learning czech at the time, so I stopped using the practice button and started going through the tree manually.
One of my problems was, that I hadn't learnt the inflections yet, so seeing "wrong" inflections led me to make more mistakes. I have completed nearly half of the tree on level 5 now and the rest on level 2 (except for the very last one) and I still don't feel confident enough with inflections to dare to tackle the last skill.
I don't know when I will, but currently it looks like I will finish the tree on level 5 first or maybe just on level 4, before I dare to touch it again.

March 17, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nueby

Thanks, that is good to know. I would imagine many things would be frustrating at Level 1 throughout the tree.

We could certainly remove this skill entirely and let our users fend for themselves when it comes to common Czech. Kind of drastic.

I suppose posting a warning not to go there until reaching Level 3 everywhere, including in naming the skill "Lvl3 Only", would only attract more attention.

In case someone wants to suggest the obvious solution: No, it is not possible to convert this into a bonus skill. Bonus skills are dead.

One possibility we could try is to insert (just before this skill) a review row so tough that it would weed out casual access. Sentences with tough word order, including multiple clitics with embedded verbs, conjunctions, aspects, tricky gender agreement, all the goodies scattered around the tree and possibly only showing up in higher crown levels?

What does anyone else think?

March 19, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lordofthedeities

First of all, I think it should be common sense not to race through the tree on level 1 if you're new to the language. Secondly, this is an issue with almost all online/self-study courses, which tend to give the user a lot of freedom, so that everyone can study at their own pace.

A possible solution, in my opinion, could be to do what schools do: at each 'checkpoint' there should be a test that thoroughly tests a user's knowledge of the covered topics. This might seem to be the same as what you suggest, but the problem with the exercises right now, is that it doesn't matter how difficult they become, if I can retry ad infinitum, and the correct answer is given immediately after each mistake, I (sometimes without realizing) simply learn the answer by heart, so I can pass the test without understanding the grammar.

Of course, not only is this probably impossible to create in Duo right now, it would likely also lead to a higher dropout rate. And one major difference with school tests is that it is always easy to cheat online.

Regardless of the possible solution, I believe this skill should not be removed, that's like burying your head in the sand. As a side note, I could do with some tips and notes in the later levels. I tend to struggle more when there are no tips and notes.

Thanks!

March 21, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/svrsheque

it doesn't matter how difficult they become, if I can retry ad infinitum, and the correct answer is given immediately after each mistake, I (sometimes without realizing) simply learn the answer by heart, so I can pass the test without understanding the grammar.

hypothetically speaking, if a user rushed through the tree at level 1, kept passing challenge skills by memorizing the answers (or scripting), and ignored the warning in the mind-poisoning skill name, that user is not really in a position to complain if their mind should indeed get poisoned.

yes, we hear you on the missing tips. it is not a secret that our team must prioritize where their effort goes.

if someone has the skills, time, and familiarity with the course to pick up some of the slack, a posting of tips and notes for a skill currently missing them would get a serious consideration both of the tips and their author.

(fwiw, markdown is used to format what we do have.)

March 25, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChristophS49077

Thanks, that is good to know. I would imagine many things would be frustrating at Level 1 throughout the tree.

Luckily, probably due to me being German, there only have been very few frustrating things, with the Czech part that is.

We could certainly remove this skill entirely and let our users fend for themselves when it comes to common Czech. Kind of drastic.

I'd rather not see that happen, as I'd still enjoy learning it.

I suppose posting a warning not to go there until reaching Level 3 everywhere, including in naming the skill "Lvl3 Only", would only attract more attention.

That would have been even more encouraging, yes, but at least I would've respected the name and postponed it and a warning would have been nice, but the name of the skill would probably be the only place to put such a warning.

In case someone wants to suggest the obvious solution: No, it is not possible to convert this into a bonus skill. Bonus skills are dead.

The temptation is strong. Must. Resist.

One possibility we could try is to insert (just before this skill) a review row so tough that it would weed out casual access. Sentences with tough word order, including multiple clitics with embedded verbs, conjunctions, aspects, tricky gender agreement, all the goodies scattered around the tree and possibly only showing up in higher crown levels?

I don't know if that'd work, because I don't know how hard level 1 tasks can get, but if they are just pictures and building sentences from the word bank they may still be easy enough to pass them. Though, I have no idea how cruel the Czech language can be and considering some texts of German philosophers, I've been 'tortured' with, I assume equally nightmarish sentences in Czech (and every other language there is, for that matter).

March 19, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nueby

I don't know if that'd work, because I don't know how hard level 1 tasks can get, but if they are just pictures and building sentences from the word bank they may still be easy enough to pass them.

Yes, those are good items to keep in mind. If we avoid defining any pictures and make sure that for every every single word being taught in those skills all of that word's exercises consist of sentences of matching length and complexity, all containing the same grammar challenge/trap, the algorithm Duo uses to pick the exercises for each word will have to reach for one of those exercises.

We just have to make the matching challenges robust enough to remain challenging even at Level 1, so despite being presented only in the direction to English and considering that nearly everyone will switch to building blocks.

I have a feeling some of my colleagues will like that type of puzzle.

March 19, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChristophS49077

One of my problems was, that I hadn't learnt the inflections yet, so seeing "wrong" inflections led me to make more mistakes.

I have read through the K. Tahal section about colloquial Czech to find my problems and here are my experiences with the differences listed there:

  1. The long vocalic phoneme /i:/ corresponding to the grapheme < ý > is often changed into /ej/, both in word roots and in inflectional suffixes

    This feels somewhat weird, but was no problem because the places it occurred were already solid in my head, so I didn't start to write ej instead of ý

  2. The long vocalic phoneme /e:/ is often changed into /i:/. (In the written form either < í > or < ý > is used.)

    This depends on where it occurred: If it was a word I have already seen a lot of times, like mléko, no problem, however endings like -ého to -ýho or -ém to -ým were one of my main mistakes I did after learning that skill, so declension of adjectives became hard.

  3. The prothetic consonant v is often placed before the initial vowel o.

    No issue at all

  4. Adjectives, demonstrative pronouns, possessive pronouns in plural use identical forms for all genders in accusative and nominative.

    this was also no problem so I guess my nominative and accusative plural were solid as well, however:

    Moreover, there are no consonant alternations in nominative plural masculines.

    I am unsure if this would (have), as I don't remember it happening for nouns (no problem with dobří to dobrý, etc.)

  5. Nouns in instrumental plural use the endings -ama, -ema, -íma, -ma.

    and

  6. Adjectives, pronouns and numerals in instrumental plural change the ending -mi into -ma.

    My second source of mistakes. When I finished the tree on level 1, I was far from beeing solid with instrumental and locative plural, so when I was learning the last skill it just became a huge mess in my head.

  7. When addressing a person with a family name, the vocative form “pane“ is followed by the nominative of the family name – instead of the vocative case.

    While I probably don't know how to build the vocative for all nouns, this didn't change anything for me.

  8. Personal pronouns in 3rd person plural uses the form (v)oni – regardless the gender. Moreover, the past participle of verbs uses the same ending -li, regardless the gender of the subject

    I was already used to oni/ony/ony/ona so much, that I didn't start using oni instead, the same goes for the participle, so no additional mistakes here.

  9. In past participle of masculines singular, the postconsonantal -l is sometimes left out.

    similar to the last bullet point I was so used to the -l, that everything was fine.

  10. “bychom“ “kdybychom“ “abychom“ to “bysme“ “kdybysme“ “abysme“

    Funnily enough, I first came across aby, abys and abyste, so when I first had to build the 1st person, I used abym and abysme respectively, which made for a memorable memory, so I didn't start to do them wrong again.

  11. Possessive adjectives are declined in the same way as proper adjectives.

    I don't remember seeing them in the last skill, but they seem different enough for me to not get them confused. It seems like the standard is like a noun version and the common is an adjective version.

  12. The auxiliary verb in past tense is sometimes left out after the explicitly expressed pronouns “já“ and “my“.

    Due to the high frequency of auxiliary verbs, they were a core part of my Czech knowledge already, when I arrived at the bottom. So, while it took me a while to understand the very first sentence like that, thanks to similar participles in both German and English it wasn't too difficult, I kept using them correctly.

So, my conclusion would be, that, in order for me to flawlessly start learning the last skill, I'd need to be more solid in instrumental plural, as well as adjectives singular, except nominative and accusative and especially dative plural and lokative and instrumental singular, as they blend together quite a lot. Now as the instrumental singular doesn't seem to change, it may not be necessary.

Edit: lots of formatting

March 19, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DeniseSchl5

I can understand how it would be frustrating at level one of the tree. I started before they had the crown system so I was on at least level 2 or 3 of the crowns before I got to the last topic. It was a relief after going through harder lessons with art, science and relative clauses to come across the What the ?!. I was able to figure them out well enough.

March 17, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VladaFu

to už dneska dávaj rozřazováky věty z posledních lekcí? To sou vjecy...

March 15, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/svrsheque

jo, ať mu vemou plat, kreténoj.

March 15, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/endless_sleeper

Nojo, řikám to porád, voni sou autoři jakože hrozný pitomci. Ať si pán vezmou cyhlyčku jako cenu voutěchy.

March 15, 2019
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