I have seen a lot of Duolingo users downvote discussions that are perfectly fine posts. For example, I was on a discussion posted by a user asking for technological help due to issues, and she was seeking support from the community. A perfectly fine thing to post surely. A day later, when I check to see if the problem has resolved, I notice the discussion was “-3” on votes.
This can be an unsettling thing for sensitive users, so let us ask ourselves why we are downvoting and is that reason legitimate. I’m sure that some scroll through the latest posts and just downvote them without reading, and we need to stop these people. “Trolls” people call them. In contradiction, I ask everyone to be mindful of voting.
To the Duolingo operators, here’s a suggestion: You cannot vote until you have viewed the discussion.
Thank you for considering the issue.
Duolingo is currently facing the problem of trolls, spamming posts and downvoting perfectly fine ones... I like your solutions, personally, I think it should be allowed after viewing, which is actually a great idea! But if you had to comment to vote, it may just draw more attention to spam posts. It could also cause spam comments with little substance just to gain access to voting.
But this post gets an upvote from me! Interesting proposal :)
I wonder if the DVs would decrease if the nicknames of the downvoters could be read via a dropdown list.
In addition, when you click on the Downvote arrow, a window opens in which you would have to write a reason (only a few characters possible). This justification could also be viewed via the drop-down list.
And if a downvoter knew that he or she is internally listed with his or her IP and analyzed a function of this downvote behavior. The system could then recognize and block DV trolls if necessary.
I like this way of thinking. It might be good if they restructure as Agree, Disagree, and Report instead of up and down voting. It clarifies what a downvote is for. Some use it for inappropriate content others use it as a way to show disagreement.
When there is spam, just sit back and watch the show! https://tenor.com/view/jason-momoa-folding-chair-like-aboss-gif-7551664
Maybe not, because what if someone does a post that is spam? Then surely people would downvote it so it is deleted.
How about a report button, and when I post gets 5 reports, it gets deleted.
This comment is the reason the downvote function doesn't work properly: people are downvoting to disagree not to moderate. The internet worked for years without downvote facilities.
What irony - the comment you just posted has -7. (I didn't vote on your comment). I can see where you are coming from, but don't completely agree. Some comments completely deserve downvotes because they may say rude things. Edit: AH! Now your comment has -25!
"Some comments completely deserve downvotes because they may say rude things." The solution to people like that is not to interact with them and not to get into the very suspect business of censorship. The solution is to withhold interaction from such types.
Ah though who should do the chastising? Currently anyone can chastise whatever they like with or without justification and with complete anonymity.
I agree, the spam is an issue, and dv's are a tool to fight it. I think a required view of the post before a dv would be a good idea to try! :D I am so glad some users value meaningful conversation about suggestions! :)
If they really are spam postings, I can understand that, but currently justified questions or requests for help are also directly voted with -5, so that they fall out of the discussion and in such a way that they cannot be found again even by a search.
Currently I have the feeling that with downvotes there is extreme spamming or this instrument is heavily abused.
Maybe they can raise the number of downvotes a post needs before it is deleted to 7 or 8.
That probably wouldn't solve a whole lot, considering people using multi-accounts to bring discussions down to, I don't know, -13 sometimes (highest I've seen is -17).
i only downvote if A. offensive post B. Spam or C. Disagreement. we do need the Agree, Disagree, Report to distinguish what people are thinking with downvoting and upvoting.
I think this will be a good idea with the commenting to vote, but it adds another problem of people spamming/using short messages to be able to post. There are three ways to "fix" the problem. Using the original poster to moderate the comments, which will obviously lead to bias and trolling, Automation which will most likely not work and get more grief from users, and/or more moderators, which could end badly, with knowing that this will just put more work on the current moderators. But, at least it allows some of the trolling to go, but not all of it.
If someone wants to propose a vote on something there are voting mechanisms out there. In a discussion forum, if you agree with something why not say so. And if you're going to disagree, have the guts to put your name to it and say why. A community is not created through anonymous up and downvotes. On this day, in the UK, Facebook and Instagram face a ban on letting under-18s "like" posts on their platforms . Likes, upvotes and (need it even be said) downvotes are not the way forward.
"a community is not created through anonymous up and downvotes"
Quite so. A community can be policed this way, anonymously (and without anyone being called to account).
It's mainly because duolingo is a very popular meme rn, but memes don't last long so it should be ending soon.
I had a run-in with a user here a couple of weeks ago. (Not naming names.)
Immediately after that, I noticed just about all of my posts elsewhere were all suddenly and senselessly getting down-votes. Because I could easily link the problem with user-in-question, I didn't really care.
If it were up to me, I'd lose the down-vote altogether. Instead, include a "report" button if things are really bad enough to down-vote.
There are pros and cons to that. The pros are like you said, prevents trolling. The con is that it enforces bias. For example, if 10 people like a post and 50 dislike a post, normally it would show up as -40. With that method, it will show up as 10, giving more support to the post than what people actually think.
BUT I don't care if other people want to post, well, whatever they want to. I just want the opportunity to not have to see it. Eliminating downvoting would, as you say, create bias, but I kind of doubt as many people would be as likely to support nonsense ...who knows though, I see an awfully lot of it.
I agree that there needs to be an Off-Topic discussion board, that is not really anything off-topic, just not super off-topic, especially with the Duolingo meme spreading, there needs to be a place where they can go so they do not take over Duolingo in English.
sounds great but i garentee you people will probably raid the discussions in retaliation. believe me, ive seen a lot of ppl raiding sites that wont let them do them. usually memers and they do it until they get their way...
What a wonderful idea! Downvoting is not effective for anything except making a person feel powerful by anonymously putting another person down. It may seem to keep discussion clear of clutter but it actually doesn't because every time we come back to the discussion forum after checking a post, we still have to scroll through all the "new" posts. It would be so much more useful if we could "block" a user we felt was a problem and "delete" posts we didn't want to see because we felt they were not about something we are interested in.
I don't know what it would take to make such changes but it would certainly help the discussion forums! It would be so nice to be able to have rational discussions and have questions answered and participate in a helpful and productive way OR opt out of each post privately but without hurting that post's chances of being seen by others.
I've always thought the blocking system here was weak. I have a couple of people blocked, yet all it means it they can't follow me. I still see their posts and they can still comment on mine. How exactly productive of a block is that if we can still communicate? At least with a better blocking system, if the person tries to downvote one of your comments, they might not be able to on their blocked account. (Sock accounts?...different story.)
Delete or "hide" posts might also be more effective.
Yes! I would LOVE to see more options to give mature, sensible control of the discussions to people who want it. I don't really understand why it hasn't been instituted unless maybe it's not been necessary before. I can't see how it would affect DL except that it may eventually drive away spammers and nuisance posts or encourage cliques. But still...
Hate to say it, but most of the problem-posts come from young kids and teens learning Spanish in the US. American kids learn Spanish in schools, more than other languages. Just about every time I see a nonsense-comment it comes from someone learning Spanish up to level 8 or something. A lot of those kids are on here for school, and make separate accounts to hassle the rest of the learners here. During spring break the forums were ridiculous. DL either needs to crack down on sock accounts or do something better for blocking.
I think this is becoming more enforced through the "Duolingo" meme that has popped up out of the blue. More kids in the comments, Swedish has jumped up a lot due to a famous internet star (I guess is a good thing if at least some commit to it?) and I have been noticing a lot of the changes have been geared towards kids/teens. Maybe it will pass soon, though. Time will tell.
@NormalPineapple: Yes, I seem to remember a bunch of kids talking about these memes. I think one of them said once they got here it was a good site and they wanted to keep up whatever language they were learning.
Downvoting is not effective for anything except making a person feel powerful by anonymously putting another person down. It may seem to keep discussion clear of clutter but it actually doesn't because every time we come back to the discussion forum after checking a post, we still have to scroll through all the "new" posts.
Not true. The entire point of DV, in general, is to get rid of something unwanted by the community. Sure, people can abuse it, but that statement is completely false and spoken out of emotional anger.
A better nuance would be it can be both things. Social disagreement from a majority can still be bullying and be used to feel powerful, yadda yadda.
" Downvoting is not effective [etc].... It would be so nice to be able to have rational discussions and have questions answered and participate in a helpful and productive way OR opt out of each post privately but without hurting that post's chances of being seen by others." Nice approach.
Down-votes are being equally abused where grammar, usage, and other more technical issues can be addressed concerning the individual lessons or sentences.
For example, people who really have no business weighing in on matters of grammar and usage due to their own lack of understanding about a particular language (I don’t care if it is their native tongue!) regularily down-vote other far more helpful comments made by people with a better mastery of the language in question.
I always feel so bad for the person who made the original post in an attempt to get answers to their language learning questions, as well as all of the people who are bound to come along later with the same question.
Actually, though, if I have to click on a post to down vote it it is time consuming and eventually gets so bogged down that it isn't worth going back and forth. Every time I click on a post and then return to the discussion, I have to return to the top of the posts and scroll through them all yet AGAIN. That is why I have been really, really wanting an option to somehow remove the unwanted posts from my feed...privately and not in any kind of way that would offend or hurt others but just because I want to have more control over how I spend my time and what I have to see. I posted a link below to a discussion I TRIED to have about this a few days ago.
Lascille hi. Sensible dv helps to keep the forum fairly free of spam, the emphasis being on sensible.
Scepticism here about how 'sensible' behaviour in very large forums is ever going to be. Especially when there is trouble even getting agreement.
There's one problem - the fact that you can vote for a discussion even though you haven't opened it. They should remove this option from the Forums and it'll be fine. I, myself get through this with the discussions I open too - just take a look: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/30749341
Frankly, I don't care if I get +1, +10 or -100 - I'm here to learn and I'm thankful to the people that take their time to read and answer our questions.
The only thing I downvote is spam, nothing else. If I like something - I upvote it, if I don't - I don't do anything. Yet always, when I see an alright post with downvotes, I do upvote it no matter what!
I completely agree. because I made a discussion about a problem that I had and when i look to see if any body help me my discussion was deleted, it had 5 down votes and 0 comments. I agree what you are saying because I think people just skimme over it without reading it. So thanks. Lascille here is some lingots.
As far as I can tell, Duolingo gave everyone the same two buttons. Everyone can do whatever they want with the buttons, it is their choice. May not be right. But they can do as they like. As long as it isn't a bot that is just automatically doing it, oh well.
That said, this whole conversation is off topic.
I wish all websites that use it would drop the upvote and downvote system. There is no good reason to sort posts by popularity, it turns everyone into a bunch of flatterers.
Can you tell I really REALLY like your comment! How about counting lingots for popularity rather than votes...that would stop people from voting without putting their "money where their mouth is" in a sense.
@SandraStea1- I agree. Maybe we could just give lingots for upvotes instead of the up and down system, or like someone else on this thread said, have users pay a lingot to downvote?
i dont think this is a good idea... it honestly sounds like paying for free speech
Also smirking at the concept of applying freedom of speech in a private company's forum... Here, take my lingot.
Upvoting/downvoting works well when people behave well. But if posters behaved well, there'd be no need for downvoting!
It might help if each individual user had a limited number of downvotes they could cast over a period of time, like a week. That won't help if there are downvoting bots at work, but that should be easy for Duo to spot.
Here's an idea, though: How about you get a small number of downvotes for every new lesson you complete over a period of time, say, a month? That way the downvoting bots can't just do a simple skill and then go downvote something.
In the German Forum I had written a love letter to the downvoters and thus triggered an interesting discussion. Here is the link https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/31234793
After this discussion I had written a summary:
The responsibility of a learner lies, of course,
- to express themselves respectfully and appropriately
- write legibly and comprehensibly for everyone, or at least make the greatest effort with non-native speakers
- in the case of a language course in sentence discussion, to first read through the already existing answers and only then, if the question is not answered there, to ask his question
The responsibility of a helper and responder lies in this,
- to answer to the best of their knowledge and belief
- rather to give a reason why one does not find a contribution well or why something is answered wrongly than to react only with DVs.
- help if you notice that someone has posted a post in the wrong forum rather than simply devaluate the post, because new members sometimes just don't know better.
- Use DVs really only as a last resort
- DVs should not be used to arbitrarily devalue opinions and people, we are here in a language course and not on Facebook
- A certain moderation would simplify it, so as not to have to influence the sorting with DVs, or the introduction of a message button to support moderation, for spam, trolls or in sentence discussions, for really wrong answers.
I say this generally, and not directly to the OP, but... if you're insulted by downvotes, perhaps internet forums aren't for you?
Oh, the "you're just a triggered snowflake" talking point! How much I've missed you! Thought I'd never see this ad hom in this forum.
Nah, I recognize this sentiment when I see it. It's also hypocritical that you agree with him but project on my sentiments further down in this comment sections, thinking I am bragging rather than just replying to a bad talking point. You are sensitive yourself, and he is framing being sensitive as an undesireable thing and asking sensitive people to remove themselves from society rather than be accommodated for.
well, i mean, if a scary movie was playing or something and you were scared, offended and disgusted by it would you change the channel or would you force yourself to watch it? i'd change the channel just not got to forums if you know its gonna hurt you.
Like.... 'If you try to reduce car thefts, perhaps driving is not for you'?
Before downvoting somebody or instead of doing this, it would be better that you first explain your own opinion and reason for disagreement. Sometimes I do not understand why am I downvoted. No offenses, of course, but I simply wonder why and would know the reason.
Attila. In an ideal world a good idea, but the forum would be jammed with explanations and eventually we may spend more time explaining than learning languages. The OP might then get upset with the explanation and so it would go on and on and on and on.... If one gets offended while on the forum, it may eventually be better not to visit it.
Oh yes, it is! I am just so curious like a cat. But explanations take place and time, of course.
Attila, even if they explain the reason for disagreement, there's no guarantee they gave the right reason for downvoting you or other people. Just let it go, I say because if you are curious you get older faster, according to a Hungarian saying.
Thanks for the proverb. Less lethal than the English "curiosity killed the cat."
I seen alot of comments in this thread having a lot of down votes this comment will probaly have some too
I would suggest making people earn the right to down vote by through lingots or having to make five up vote for every down vote. I don't think people being sensitive is a very good reason to keep people from downvoting. I do think abuse is a good reason when the abuse is detrimental to purpose of the site. If people abuse downvoting then downvoting is not even take seriously.
I think that 'the right to down-vote', determined by lingots, age, XPs, length of time of Duo, etc. will not resolve the abuse of that right, especially the right to get rid of any threads that they do not personally like. There have been - - - such-qualified - - - people who were banned because of various abuses.
Only the trained Mods/admin's should have that right. (So IMO the rule '-5 remove post'' should be lifted, and I wrote elsewhere why the rule's rationale is not rational. Plus the glut of junk posts may be related to weak/not-very-visible FAQs and no Search bf You Post enforcement. )
I think they mean that there should be some sort of compensation and/or requirements for downvoting, and because of reasons cough (Laziness) cough, they wouldn't be bothered to go through all that work for one measly downvote.
I think that would be a good idea not to enable downvoting until a person actually clicks on a post.
However, I think a much better idea would be to eliminate downvoting all together! It encourages anonymous mob rule and people who have a mad-on for the world can (and DO...daily and hourly!) prevent other learners from getting answers, sharing thoughts and helping each other.
I don't know how it could be made possible but it would be nice if everyone had the option to privately delete posts once they were read and considered not of value. I find myself using downvoting in (largely vain) attempt at sorting through the many posts to see those I CAN contribute to in a helpful way. It's a losing battle, though, with all the spam and chit chat. I realize that one persons' "chit chat" is another person's "helpful post", though, which is why I have been asking for a way for each person to have more control over the posts they read.
I do think that reading a post before dismissing/deleting it would be reasonable but even that may not be necessary. I like the discussions but it is like throwing yourself the lions when you try to ask some questions. Saddest of all, it encourages people who are frustrated or upset about life to act on their troll feelings and gives them power as they do it. That is not healthy for anyone.
All this will do is just add bias to posts. Like I said earlier on another comment about the same thing, if 50 people vote, 10 like and 40 dislike, normally it would say -30. But that way, it says 10, and gives bias to the pro side. There will always be trolls, but we can try and reduce them by telling Duolingo that we need less trolls and to add ways to reduce them.
This would be great IF it would work. It seems like people are always far more likely to spread negativity and act anonymously to put someone else down than they are to build them up.
Why don't you just get rid of the -5 rule. That's the only reason that downvoting is bad. Plus, it's their fault if they take offense to that critique and negativity. Sure, it provokes emotion, but you don't need to dwell on it that circumstance or you won't get past that negative emotion. Move on and keep trying! That's what critiquing is!
Yeah, which is why I think it would be better to have stricter rules on the Duolingo forums.
Stricter forums = more moderators. Simple down vs. upvoting = mob rule. If that's the way people want it, that's fine, but I just wish there could be a way to participate without having to see the trolling. Maybe making votes cost a lingot?
About the downvoting b4 actually reading the post, it is also sometimes when ppl give a descent post a stupid name ppl think that it's a waste of space b4 they've actually read it, so I'd kinda watch out for the name of my post as well... so like an irrelevant title like "hi" - then the post is about some bug, but no-one reads it cus the name is daft... if you get what I mean... :p just a thought
Re "Mob rule": if things were thus IRL the death penalty would be back in the UK but thankfully we have been free of that for (an embarrassingly short) fifty odd years.
Thanks for your posting, it's my opinion.
It is okay for me to give me another opinion or to critically question my question, my opinion. Then you get into a conversation and I can learn or the other person can learn too.
Only devaluing is simply too cheap for me and so far I have not devalued any contribution here yet, even if I might not share one or the other.
I know that this method also influences the sorting, but in many articles I have rather the feeling of arbitrariness and the nose-factor.
And even though I have already discussed it with some of you in the corresponding article, I am critical of the downvoting itself in all social media. Is this supposed to be a culture in the future?
I have not encountered any other place with such a preponderance of anonymous demeaning of others. I know that dissonance keeps people interested...more so than peace. People like to spread and read bad news more than good....at least the general public seems to so this might well be a trend in social media. Where time spent on the site = ad revenue, they may honestly not care about the content as long as people are posting. I don't suppose I'll be here long but it was nice to find a place to learn languages and discuss them and pertinent questions and life experiences in a positive way (until we couldn't).
Thanks, many good ideas there. "Hide" I think would be good, not necessarily delete. "Collapse" within a thread would be great too.
On the main forum/sub-forum, many websites use "Categories" (different from subscriptions) very successfully.
I think please do not down vote to arrange things for a better private view. It affects that post possibly unfairly.
The idea of 'read first' is quite good but may not reduce the problem by much, as they can click but not read. Also issues of personal dislikes/prejudices still remain.
I like the discussions but it is like throwing yourself the lions
Very sad, that; it only takes one lion.
There have been obvious aggressions and micro-aggressions; and anyone appearing new or very young or 'not fluent enough in English' are targets. "Block" can be one private solution but really allows the lions to continue at large. (PS Lion animals are fine; here lion means people mauling others.)
Blocking does not affect the ability to participate in or see a person's post. If it did, that would be great. And yes, I understand totally about the "lion" reference. I wanted to say "wolves" but they are animals even closer to my heart and would never engage in the kind of behavior against their own kind that humans do on a daily basis. Well, there are exceptions but I won't go there because it's too off topic but I appreciate your comment and hope you get my point.
Yes. I upvoted (here with minimal risk of changing the order of posts) to acknowledge it without adding text. Then a downvote cancelled it. So here's my text :-)
And therefore a chance to add, about those that use not only non-human animals but 'KIDs' 'KIDs' KIDs' to blame and to associate with adults' ways of bad behaviours. We can see such blame-the-kids instances even on this thread. I shall stop here.
Wishing you well. May wolf and lion animals, and KIDs!!! be safe from misbehaving adults.
I definitely agree, thank you for calling out this issue. Here are 2 lingots and an upvote for thanks!!!
Is there an issue with trolling on Duolingo?
My experience has been limited as I haven't been on here in years and am now picking it up again. But regardless, back then there were comments that I thought didn't deserve downvotes and some that didn't deserve upvotes (in my opinion), but I guess that's just what happens. I don't think that people's voices should be silenced, but if there is an issue with trolling I do want to be made aware of that.
Looking at the New tab I noticed downvotes were being applied to legitimate discussion threads thus nudging them towards disappearance.
The problem is this was being done arbitrarily and anonymously. It's how Duolingo is set up - discussion can or can't take place for reasons that never have to be given at the hand of who knows who.
To any Duolingo staff who may read this, please do not let Duolingo become a social media platform. I've found the forums to be extremely on topic, in no small part due to the way the downvote system currently works. It's very rare that I've ever seen a post with merit be downvoted out of the public feed. Consistently the things which are downvoted fail to follow the community post guidelines, generally being off-topic, poorly written/worded, or appealing to the forums for follows/lingots.
Further, the upvotes and comments here should be proof enough that people detest being downvoted. A consequence of allowing the community to control its own post feed is that users who are just posting to talk quickly find themselves, unpleasantly, being downvoted and in the future attempt to remain on topic to avoid that negative experience. This, I think, is especially effective given the number of children who use the forums as part of their schoolwork.
Without the downvote system in place, I believe Duolingo would be overrun by off-topic posting, drastically increasing the amount of work community moderators would need to do. It may not be a pleasant experience to be downvoted, and it's important to note that every system can be abused and there have undoubtedly been good posts downvoted out of the feed, but on whole, I believe the system works very well as it is now.
While I agree that downvotes have their use and the forums shouldn't become a social network, I'm afraid you say that - with such a bold defense of the status quo, even as it could be improved somewhat - because you've never been bullied through them yourself over an extremely harmless viewpoint. As we say in Brazil, hot sauce in the eyes of another is sweet juice to my mouth.
Being downvoted isn't equal to being bullied. Not even the same ballpark.
Haha the hardest one, eh? Okay, let me try
"This thread about how much people hate downvotes is very popular. That shows people don't like being downvoted."
The OP refers to the downvoting of discussions (hiding them from view). The process, available to all Duolingo users, is both arbitrary and anonymous.
I disagree with both the analysis and conclusion in the 'To any Duolingo staff' post.
I only down vote those who are being abusive, either to me or to others. I generally don't use the vote buttons at all unless there is a post i really like or for abuse. Is there a way to flag users that are trolls and just trying to get a negative reaction from others? I try to be sensitive to others who might be sensitive and try to be as helpful as I can. It makes for a better community.
In summary, DV's are a double edged sword- good for uncluttering forums, but a tool for trolls.
Let's consider specific solutions. For the claim that 'down-voting will reduce the same questions from being asked again', that is a false notion. Ineffective. It is like plugging a leaky boat with a sponge or bullets, while the big leak elsewhere is ignored.
1) For a new learner, where can one see any Search button or Guidelines and FAQs. The button was a tiny circle before; now it is worse, being off to the top right and invisible when people look at or zoom onto the general forum. They only see an inviting "NEW POST". To see Guidelines and FAQs needs clicking on 'Duolingo' under the Subscription panel.
Solutions? Duo please fix these. To the left of the Search you can even enforce a Yes on "Have you searched, and understood the Guidelines?" And even get all of us, not just the blamed new or young, to take a test on Guidelines and Etiquettes, yearly as updated. The site is already set up for individual testing.
2) Just (i.e. without fixing (1)) Removing a fresh discussion that is legitimate, even if it's boring to old-timers, means someone else will post that topic again!
Also newer users can benefit from giving/exchanging and seeking fresh, this year's, opinions and tips, as opposed to talking on a 2 year old thread.
Please Mods & Co, we rely on offered solutions to be passed to the Admin team. Thank You.
I completely and totally agree! It gives a person the opportunity to explain why they do not support the post, and so the OP knows as well. I had a similar situation happen to me- I was suggesting that maybe it could be optional to have our streaks public on our posts, just a suggestion, and I WANTED TO KNOW WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT. Then, it got deleted because of 5 downvotes, and NO POSTS. I didn't get to engage in conversation about my suggestion, and that disappointed me greatly. This would be a big improvement.
I give my opinions sometimes, and this happens too. Like Hollie2237 said in a previous post, comment-to-vote sounds like a good idea, but it does have some flaws, which may make it obsolete.
The example you used is kind of a bummer, because it was actually the user's fault for not putting said discussion in the troubleshooting section, where I'm assuming that it probably should've gone there. Also, I don't think that there will ever really be a solution to this. Trolls will always exist and always find loopholes. But I guess that's why we have mods and we have voting. Kind of reminds me of the U.S. voting process. Not the thing itself, but more of the fact that Duo envisioned a great idea, but it was deviated overtime to become something it really supposed to be at all.
It also happened to me that I posted a post in the wrong forum. Instead of downvoting, someone drew my attention to it and I immediately put it in the right forum.
Because if someone only gets downvotes, but doesn't know why, he can't correct his mistakes either.
Here's a twist on this. Someone posted their 7 day streak and they had 4 down votes and facing a Fiver when I dropped a comment suggesting why, since they said they were a new user. I clicked on the persons name to see their bio and whether they were a child or adult. Satisfied they were an adult, I replied accordingly and suggested people who got 100 and added some tips how they got that far tended to get upvoted . With 7 and bragging, not such a good response.
Soon afterward, person got upvoted and I became the downvote magnet. What a lovely ballet of emoting ensued so full of form and color. That's what I got for being direct and not fawning over the person like a 5 year old. People assumed I was just being mean and nasty for no reason.
But I am pleasantly surprised that things work out as well as they do here, considering the great mix of ages and different levels of development and maturity. It is one of the safest places on the Internet. If little Johnny cries at getting down votes, they should wait a few years or have their parents sit with them to comfort and console them in time of need.
Yes, I've observed similar processes before.
However, it is not only about feelings, but also about the fact that quite justified inquiries, suggestions and requests for help disappear with the DVs from the field of vision and these receive then possibly no or only few answers at all.
I also try to keep up with Upvotes, where I see it and where I think that the topic has a right.
If he has cognitive thinking, then maybe he can correct his mistakes. If I post something about my toes in the Spanish section, and it gets DVed, maybe there's something wrong. A post about Welsh in the Klingon forum is going to get downvoted. A post about dogs and absolutely nothing about language is going to get downvoted. An answered question is going to get downvoted. If you can't understand what's wrong, then use something like Google or Duo's Q&A site. How about the Community Guidelines? As long as you have a brain that functions, then you should be able to figure out the problem.
It's nice that you're so smart and that you were a true master of serving the forum right from the start!
Thanks! (I know it's sarcasm. It's just that I like to take hate as compliments. It's fun to that person get mad that their words aren't cutting.)
Thanks for your explanation, then I know that I don't need to take your comments seriously at all.
Some observations in addition to HeyMarlana's (and the great suggestion about a Report button) and others:
The NOT-sensible down voters have too much power to remove new posts they do not like or those by people they do not like, quickly off the forum.
Some have multiple accounts. So when they sleep or travel the problems are less; when they're asleep posts like yours survive? When they return from travel we see a plague of down votes? To keep such power they likely strongly oppose discussions or ideas that limit it. They can use different faces to staunchly support their own views, and up-vote themselves too.
There are people who do not see the problems. (Hint: Posts like yours are said to have come up every few days, so there are problems, but get removed. Unseen.)
Within a thread, it is not so bad as we can use the Sort Newest/Oldest. But on threads, the rule of '-5 removes them' is a problem.
Duo has tried to reduce the issue by limiting the number of down-votes per account. Problems continue.
Trolls play a game feeding off emotional responses. If you respond emotionally by your posting of a Discussion or a reply, you are willingly playing the game. Don’t want to play? DFTT. or “Don’t Feed The Troll”.
i agree with this. i do not agree with restricting the downvote as it will just make the problem worse and i feel is kind of restricting freedom... i mean, if you wanna downvote to downvote good for you, no one thinks its funny... but if i actully didnt like the post, and it got restricted well, my voice is gone. simaler attempts like this have been made on certain movies people genuinely didn't like and they still taken away... i think downvotes should stay an if people really want a question answered then encourage ppl to sort by new
I agree. Not that this is super important, but once, I made a post for my 50-day streak to celebrate it, and it got a few downvotes. This post gets an upvote from me!
Actually i posted about this just yesterday. I was asking why good questions are getting negative votes. one post that said thank you to someone answering the question got a -1. How can someone get a negative vote for being polite?
And one note more. When somebody asks someone to prove real language knowleges by answering some questions in target language they begin to downvote him immediately. If you can't answer such a question just ignore it. And if someone answers it why downvote him?
Making a whole post to thank someone is a bit extra and over-the-top, weird on the internet. Shout outs in general get downvoted for being annoying, as Linda7Italian has said in another thread. Now, if you mean comment in a post, yeah, that's some bully-type behavior.
Downvoting is very interesting- people will downvote if:
(Logically) 1. You ask for lingots. 2. You say something rude. 3. You say something with bad grammar that could appear disrespectful.
(Illogically) 1. You accidentally made a post twice. 2. You said something bad about Duolingo. 3. You said something good about Duolingo. 4. You used polite language e.g. thank you, please. 5. You asked for friends. 6. You made a complaint. 7. You asked a perfectly sensible question.
I know that I have had some of these done to me, I’ve never asked for anything off other users but my comments are often long enough for people to downvote before they’ve finished reading.
The fact I have been downvoted for this amuses me. It merely proves my point.
People's sensitivity is their own problem. I personally do not vote until reading through a post, and even then - very rarely, but I object to catering to other people's egos. If votes and harsh words unsettle you, you shouldn't be online. Stop making the Internet a "safe space".
It isn't necessarily sensitivity, I'm not super sensitive, but I don't like it when people don't agree with me, so I don't like down votes. That's not sensitivity.
That is like, your opinion, bro. oH nO wE aRe GoNnA hAvE tO dEaL wItH tHe TrIgGeReD SnOwFlAkEs is the most hypocritical opinion on the internet because you are complaining about the fact that other people have complaints. Not only is your criticism also valid for yourself and those who think like you, it actually has no constructive value. No, people should not default to lowest expectation of their social community and think people being mean is the normal human default. If you think we gotta handle one another at maximum stress levels and interpersonal belligerence of expectance of such, you are the one who has got serious psychological issues.
so i guess we are now complaining about complaining about complaining. its gonna go on and on. if someone is truly offended then leave. be done with it. find an alternative. i give credit to those people. i feel other people have the right to give opinions on the this site not all are going to agree. is that okay? yes. but what you, blurflux are doing is not respecting other people's ideas. could it be possible for you to give your opinions without being an internet troll?
I don't give two flying monkeys about dealing with "triggered people". What I object to in my post is the idea of regulating voting systems and free speech on the Internet in any way to appease people who were born into a world where everyone is a winner that deserves to be heard and venerated (read "millenials").
Thank you for reminding me to take my medications. It's hardly news that I have psychological issues, I just don't expect the world around me to bend to cater to my needs, and I expect the same of everyone, especially in an environment that is designed for learning. Gaining new knowledge, whether it be in the form of opinions or facts, often comes at a price. Ignorance, on the other hand, is free, safe and happiness-inducing.
A lingot can be used to show an appreciation, so no need for even an upvote; if a popularity contest is insisted on then a sort option can be on appreciation counts.
A Hide Post can de-clutter one's own page without any need for others' downvotes to sort it for us.
A Report button should replace the 'Anonymous mob rule', as others here put it. In any case, Duo please get rid of the '-5 = remove'; surely we can see that NOT all voters are sensible judges.
Duo is a language classroom and we need a good learning environment, so threads like this are valid. It's Duo that can improve the classroom environment.
A relatively minor point. Within a thread, a tick Read, instead of an upvote, could give a feedback that it has been read. In a fair and polite classroom or community, we can acknowledge someone's input by looking or a nod or by listening.
BTW we can now use 'Newest/Oldest' to look at posts (Thank you, Duo!), so mob-rule downvotes within a thread have no power. Plus we can look at the least popular posts and help counter unfairness.
I totally agree. I've noticed people seem a bit harsh in downvoting. Hopefully we see an improvement in this aspect of the website soon..
If people downvote a ton of posts "without reading" then this would be a ridiculously easy thing for Duolingo to prevent at the software level.
I see the rationale but think DV as is, is a really distasteful idea. Puts me off wanting to contribute. Does upvoting alone not work? Re: hiding or allowing certain things in your feed. Surely you do that by following certain discussions and not others. The discussions you follow are your feed.
To add... The rationale of 'all users are sensible in down-voting' is NOT rational. It only takes 5 by anybody on a thread/topic to silence another user, often very quickly before others can view and vote. Yes, that IS bullying.
Mods are trained on guidelines, the 'anybody' applies their own preference.
A claim that 'removal by down-voting' would teach and discourage trolls is NOT rational. If they are trolls do they care?
Puts me off wanting to contribute.
Yes, that is a problem, when meritorious posts are discouraged because ' -5 by anybody' remove them. Supporters of down-votes claim:
"I do not see" (Hint: Unseen due to removal) or
"Not many are removed" (Hint: Unseen + Good posts have been discouraged; unless suiting these down-voters or occasionally survive through. Hint2: One sampling does not prove it and having been discouraged off has already affected the samples).
"Too sensitive" (Hint: Too insensitive, etc.)
SUMMARY: Remove the '-5 rule'. Make #down-vote quota per person fewer. Watch use of quota by multiple accounts. Up-voting is enough to vote by.
This is an old issue, but actually became worse this year, yeah. The community has always had its bitter lemons who are very critical of other people and their desires (I'm not talking about normie nonsense posts of little value, but genuine requests with merit or viewpoints they just feel threatened by for some random reason), but they didn't mass bully people as freely as they do now.
Having to view the post will make things a little harder for trollers, but won't stop them. They will just click onto the post and then DV and leave, not actually reading the post's content. If you want my take, then just make the cap for DVing to, I don't know, -20 to -25. -5 makes things go away very fast, but I think that's what Duo wants. So I guess if you people keep complaining, then maybe Duo listen... Or maybe they will just let the forums run free. Who knows with Duo?
If there is to be a discussion forum then someone has to be in charge over what 'goes away really fast'. Currently anonymous downvoters fulfil this role. Whilst the advocates of this system think it good - this is only one of many possible opinions. It's great that, at last, some of these can be heard.
One thing I see happening a lot is that someone will post a comment containing a cultural reference. (Sometimes they are even correctly spotting and explaining a cultural reference in a Duolingo exercise.) And then they get downvoted by people who simply didn't understand what they were saying and assumed it was nonsense. A good rule of thumb would be not to downvote what you don't understand.
I think they should set a limit on how many downvotes people can give in one day..as I'm sure those who do this are doing it to many posts. If one only able to give one downvote per day it would help fix this issue.
I agree. I'm not offended by getting downvotes, but It's really annoying when you ask a serious question and you get a ton of downvotes. I don't know that we should get rid of the downvote system because of spam. I do, however, like the idea that you must comment to vote. I think that would ensure that the people voting are actually apart of the discussion.
Hmmmmmmm...let's see. How can this be? Oh, yes. There also are bullies on the internet. :-(
Anyone who still thinks up and downvoting et al is a good idea should watch the extrapolation of this idea in Black Mirror's episode: "Nosedive".
"Down voting and chatting" dept.: People post weekly about want a chat function. A chat post will get you a Fiver (5 downvotes and off the main board) but...chatters could Follow that discussion and have their private chat room. Is there a shelf life for a Fiver or do they stay in Followed forever
I agree with this. I think it's fine to downvote things, but I like the idea of not being able to vote until it has been viewed. I also think it'd be good if you have to have the tab open for a certain amount of time, depending on the length of post which could be determined with a simple code, to make sure that they didn't just open it, downvote, and go.
A Mod recently said (and I do praise Mods) that if in doubt or debatable, ref. Guidelines which are guiding principles, then the well trained Mods would NOT delete a post or a topic.
Yet Duo's rule of '-5 removes the thread' ALLOWs random hands to remove threads, any threads, judged or disliked by them.
Various solutions have been offered and what's waiting is for Duo to act. Please, Duo. Thank you.
The arrows could be better labeled. I have accidently down and upvoted and could then not reverse the error.
To add, there can be latency -a time delay in the system before the toggle/sum displays, sometimes a day.
This is about freedom. I am not a troll but: are we free to vote as we want? I repeat again: I do not want to downvote anyone just to express my opinion freely. Thanks.
Hi, I think it's healthy to discuss this. Here goes my opinion:
This is about freedom.
It about - - - consequences - - -. Do you have freedom to kill, maim, or gag others' opinions <--- where is their freedom? Here you may not know(?) that just ANY 5 down-votes will remove a thread? That -5 can happen before anyone else votes. And a lot of fair-minded people leave posts alone!!!, while enthusiasts of down-votes including spammers may enjoy exercising that power. Please note too that there are people with multiple accounts.
Do we have an election system whereby a candidate first disliked by 5 voters is removed? Would that be a just system?
I am not a troll but:
There's an interesting book: "I am not racist BUT".
BTW I do know people who swear they are "not racists BUT if people-of-a-different-race moved into the neighbourhood they would watch them vigilantly".
I do not want to downvote anyone
We are less concerned about you. The discussionS have been about the unjust people AND those with good intention but who are prejudiced through having been immersed in a prejudicial system or who are NOT skilled or knowledgeable enough to be the judge of what posts must be thrown out.
I shall repeat: Remove the '-5 rule'. Make #down-vote quota per person fewer. Watch use of quota by multiple accounts. Up-voting is enough to vote by.
But we need the bad to balance the good. Although it would be great if only good things were to happen in the world, I don't think the world works that way. The bad things in life have lessons to teach us, sometimes it is to teach us something that the good cannot. For example if I stub my toe on the bedpost at night, that is a bad thing and hurts me, but if it causes me to avoid walking in that direction in the future, indirectly it is a good thing. A down-vote can teach us, in a similar way, what topics to avoid in the future and can guide us in the right direction. Trolls in their own way teach us what not to be and in a way can be a good thing as they guide the rest of us against that behavior.
"A down-vote can teach us"
A down-vote is literally dumb. It does not speak, has no face, cannot present nor hold an argument. Yet those hiding behind these Zen like 'teachers' can purge legitimate new discussion at their whim. That said it is apparent that many here are wed to keeping voter anonymity.
That's fine upvote, downvote and bequest lingots till the cows come home, though no discussion should be silenced by anonymous downvotes alone. Moderator intervention is required.
Thank you for posting this. I have made multiple posts, but they just end up being downvoted by people who I doubt even read them.
Good points, many people appreciate you posting this and needed someone to do this. Thanks again.
Interesting approach. Maybe greater guidance on the purpose of the Upvote and Downvote would be helpful. Because I don't look at a Downvote as meaning "this person has done something wrong" -- it might simply mean, "this person is raising an issue/complaint, or making a suggestion, that I disagree with" -- not a judgement of the person or the post, but simply to express level of agreement/disagreement with the suggestion. This would be different from having a "report post" button, which would be indicative of "this person is raising non-issues or posting gibberish/seems like a bot" (Just a thought .Thanks for posting your thoughts too!)
Thank you, ZnmDmIcD. Good points; please note:
On a thread, did you know that five such disagree/dislikes will remove the topic/post off the board even before others can view them?
Within a thread it is less of a problem.
Yes, true; things like FAQs are not prominent. You have to click on Subscription Duolingo way on the RHS to see them -I never saw those stickies till after several months. ('Search button' is also an issue that Duo has tried to improve, from a little circle to now a banner, but out of field for people using a zoom for the LHS.)
Still, some users may just down-vote based on their judgement/dislike (e.g. of the word polite) - regardless - of FAQs.
Thanks for posting your thoughts :-)
Another thing is that allowing downvotes on the "support new courses section" makes it seem like some languages (especially the ones related to political controversies) don't get a lot of support, even though the comments show the opposite.
I'd also love the option to see posts that have more than five downvotes. There are sometimes some interesting or at least amusing things in there.
I've also had at least one baffling downvote (just today). Maybe somebody doesn't like exaggerated vocabulary or my generally cautious to slightly pessimistic view of things... XD
Yeah... I posted a shout outs post to give some people the respect they deserve and I got downvotes... and a lot of them.
Katie. Shout-outs are a bit unpopular as they are divisive. Those who don't get thanked feel unfairly left out while others who are singled out, whether they want to be or not, sometimes find it quite embarrassing to be highlighted. Shout-outs usually get dv, not just yours so don't take it personally.
Yes, I saw that. How sad that some people can't stand to see others get the praise they deserve in this or any forum! BTW, I upvoted it but my one vote wasn't enough to help much. There are too many sad and insecure people out there who just can't stand for anyone to get positive feedback. Thank you for trying, though.
I don’t think that’s the case. Those types of posts are spam. I typically just ignore them but they are not relevant to the purpose of the forums.
I agree. I got down voted because I asked someone to be more polite. Nothing else. Down voting is becoming really mean. People get down voted for no reason.
I am definetly seeing trolling. A post is at -2 votes, yet all it's comments are positive. They are downvotiong without even reading.
It amazes me there are many people who just know the motivation of a person down voting. They may be a troll or didn't even read the post. It's like a kind of super power. All I see is a number.
There are many things between heaven and earth that escapes the comprehension of our vain philosophy. I am saying that unironically, by the way, as I am slightly mediumistic and can sense people's emotions through the screen and notice when they are being disingenuous. One can also infer they are being bullied for voicing a controversial view that is not necessarily negative, just unpopular, but no one has the guts to try to face it in a serious debate.
3 posts today about how terrible down voting is?
To the Duolingo operators, here’s a suggestion: You cannot vote until you have viewed it.
That suggestion is a good one, like on the mobile, I cant down vote without going into the discussion first.
maybe a limit like 1 post down vote a minute or something so people cant just fly down the forums down voting everything
Attention!!! Many people who take part in this discussion get downvotes. Trolling us???
i get the voting system yields bogus results, but "we should keep people from voting because i find them trollish" is just wrong on so many levels.
lets say a person makes 10 duplicate posts, now each person has to click on each post to downvote the spam. that doesnt seem very good tbh
Mind you it is not helpful we people, "myself included" will not spend a few minute browsing the threads before posted yet another thread same question. Find example is the users that have been using Duolingo for awhile recently noticed all the zeros. Must be dozens of threads "myself included" of people complaining..... Still I do not vote people down.... that is just rude.
But you got upvoted and it has reappeared. That's how things work. If you get a Fiver, your Discussion still exists if anyone had Followed it. And if someone gives it enough up votes it comes back. Yes, it could get down voted into a Fiver again but that's just the way things work around here.
Thanks, SandraStea1. I saw the link here, at -5, oblivion. Later people reading your post here may try to help by up-voting, and they would NOT have ever seen your thread otherwise (especially as cross posting as a self promotion is discouraged, but ok here as an illustration). The false argument could follow that 'see, all fine'.
And, of course, I got rewarded for "self promotion", although of course I had reason to believe that the post idea was worthy of more discussion and attention. It's not about me, it's about a topic that I think would help make Duolingo a healthier place. My background in psychiatry, counseling, abnormal psychology, etc. make me take these things a bit more seriously than some may, but we can have a choice...and a voice, I hope.
Then again, maybe the downvoters are on vacation. It's too complicated and I HATE popularity contests or manipulation, but I guess that's what "social " media is.
SandraStea1 I am in support of your post(s). I hope my message did not miscommunicate...? If it did, to clarify: the 'self-promote' thing came from Duo guideline AFAIK only and I supported your action by stating specifically as 'ok here'.
I also take this issue seriously and have voiced it too... to help make Duo and the world a better place.
Please keep up the good work!
Oh, I understood. Thank you. I was being a bit sarcastic, which I usually hate to do. I am seeing what these "discussions" are and they are NOT something I want to be part of by and large. This is a very unhealthy system, for reasons I have (very unpopularly) posted elsewhere. I guess the truth hurts. Thank you so much for clarifying, really! And for the support. It may not win us support from the haters but they are so miserable anyway we can't do much to help them until they want to change.
I am at -15 downvotes on my post for shout outs to people on Duolingo... this makes me wonder what Duolingo will become in the future.
It's kind of like children acting out (being bad, mean, misbehaving) because it gets them attention when being good does not. Sadly, many people would rather have SOMEONE feeling SOMETHING about them than nothing at all. Also, people who have been abused or put down (or worse) gain a feeling of control by at least being able to make people hate them with trolling, sarcastic and nasty comments. They can feel a bit vindicated when they downvote someone, like they are getting back at the world, when they can anonymously "hurt" someone else. It is really sad but it's what the world is coming to overall. Competition, not cooperation; selfishness and fear rather than community helpfulness; hate rather than love. It is not everywhere but it is sad to see it here.
the responsible thing for duo admin would be, as i have posted previously, to disable down voting.
This is a good example of people downvoting for no reason. (I'm sorry, Katie if you excuse me I would like to use you as an example) For reasons I cannot discern from the comments directly above, people are downvoting Katie apparently for no reason. Just a harmless comment of thanks, and it's -3 and probably descending as we speak. This needs to stop! (Thank you, Katie, for letting me use you as an example)
Possibly because just flat out thanking someone with no other comment isn't needed. The OP should be able to understand the appreciation through people discussing on the post, upvoting and lingots. I understand where you're coming from, but, come on, are you really going to just upvote someone's post because it says: "thank"
i think if people genuinely do not like to hear people trolling them then we should take discussion away entirely. this is a site about learning new languages not for memeing, trolling, complaining about downvoting system etc. i'td save a lot of people's time so we dont get all worked up among ourselves and maybe we would make some progress.
- You consider that a ‘meme’. What an inaccurate, and, I have to say, rather stupid description.
- You are making a comment about not commenting. The irony.
- That is absolute balderdash, to put it succinctly.
1.look person, i'm sorry i didn't use the right words that fit perfectly but my point still stands. 2. yeah i am! it's because no one here is doing their spanish and we all are distracted rn even me! 3. if you don't want trollers memers or kids plaguing this site with nonsense then there ya go. and FYI doulingo has been the biggest meme right now so there ya have it folks
honestly i think if you really need help, dont go to forums ask google or youtube cuz no one here is concerned with a certain word or phrase, we all are concerned with chat. and i got no time for this EDIT: i guess i do have time for this. i guess what i meant is that i shouldn't be here because of this pages toxicity yet i am here because for whatever reason i keep coming back
It wasn't the speak for yourself. It was more of the calling him out for only having a 4-day streak and only one language compared to your superior 295-day streak and a boatload of languages. Other than that, yeah. Agree.
It is perfectly acceptable to bring out inequality when it leads to a difference of situation and perspective. It is simply not factual to say that forums distract me. Duolingo's method is based on timed repetition anyway. Yes, a streak size matters.
You should be saying that ONLY YOUR OWN streak size matters! Because by the way you are commenting on this forum, you obviously don't care about anyone else as long as they are beneath you. And, furthermore, it is NOT okay to bring out inequality because in this context you are USING IT TO HARM OTHERS!
Some people prefer to take life at a slower pace. The worst thing about how many languages YOU are taking is that none of them aren't at a level that you can brag about, and most likely most of them will never be. Don't push others down just because you have more flags than them. That comment ALONE deserves one downvote.
thanks for sticking up for me. if i get some lingots anytime soon i'll make sure that i give them to you!
so let me get this straight. 296 day streak people are allowed to give an opinion. but someone like me is not? ACK this place is toxic!
You are allowed your opinion. I disagree with it. I stated why in the most neutral manner possible. I also consider it fair to you as it was honest, open and with a right for you to defend yourself, unlike those low category anonymous jabs that we are complaining about. See, you know the face of someone who disagrees with you, and you can hate that specific person. That is much better for your mental health and self-confidence.
Everyone has conditional empathy. I am just honest when I am annoyed or when I criticize something. This is not toxicity, this is not being fake nice. To me that is much better than an anonymous jab.
Something Duolingo could do to solve this problem is just upvotes because that way people can still feel good about themselves.
Unpopular Opinion: Just because it makes people "feel good" about themselves, does not mean it should be taken away. It will add bias to whatever the person is saying. Again, if there is 50 votes, 10 like and 40 dislike, it would show as -40. Without dislikes, it would show 10, making it look positive, even though that is not the popular opinion.
Other discussion forums work perfectly well with positive votes only. Just saying.