https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Keciro

Doubt about Esperanto

hey guys, can anyone tell me what's the difference between "el ili" and "ilia"?

August 23, 2019

11 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/petermoldovia

I'm a beginner, but since there are no other answers, I'll take a shot:

"el ili"

The only meaning I can come up with here is "of them" as in

many of them / multaj el ili

"ilia"

This is the 3rd person plural possessive pronoun. The English equivalent is "their".

If that didn't answer your question, can you provide context? Can you paste the sentences that you found confusing?

August 23, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Keciro

thanks for the answer xD

August 24, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

More context would be helpful.

August 23, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lectroidmarc

Ilia is the 3rd person plural possessive pronoun, so ilia aûto is "their car". But Esperanto doesn't have a non-pronoun possessive case like English, so you don't say "my brother's car" you say la aŭto de mia frato or "the car of my brother".

Sooo.... where does that leave us with de ili? Well, I don't really know. I would read la aŭto de ili as weird, but I'd get it. I assume that this is one of those constructs that's technically valid, but just isn't generally done (or is done in poetry or something). Kindof like how "That is the car of my brother" would be in English. It's weird, but you'd probably get it.

August 23, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Keciro

thanks for the answer xD

August 24, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mirville2

En la realo (in reality) nenio malhelpas iun Esperantiston uzi la formon : "frates aŭto" aŭ eĉ "mies frates aŭto" : nur estas tiu formo tre malkutima rilate al ĉefflua uzado (mainstream use). Ĉia adverbo finiĝanta kun -e povas kun aldono de la fina litero s uzigî kelke simile al la saksona poseda formo. La komunuma manĝo de la mateno povas diriĝi la komunuma manĝo matene kaj ankaŭ matenes komunuma manĝo. Sed ne estas tiu perfekte logika ebleco enirinta en la uzado. Praktike, oni devas rezervi ĝin al la esprimo arĥaika (rilate al la historio imagina de la pra-Esperanto) aŭ dialekta, ekzemple de dialekto anglosaksoneska imaginita de E-o kiu estus uzita en Usono.

August 24, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

En la realo (in reality) nenio malhelpas iun Esperantiston uzi la formon : "frates aŭto" aŭ eĉ "mies frates aŭto"

Nu, krom la fakto ke tio ne estas Esperanto.

nur estas tiu formo tre malkutima rilate al ĉefflua uzado (mainstream use).

No, it bees more than that. I would can speak English with all usenes sorten of personal made up rulen, but that would to be not English.

Ĉia adverbo finiĝanta kun -e povas kun aldono de la fina litero s uzigî kelke simile al la saksona poseda formo.

You are certainly not the first person in 130 years to suggest words like "mies" - but it's not an adverb+s, it's borrowing from the real Esperanto words kies, ties, ies, ĉies, and nenies. Using this ending outside of the words from the Table of Correlatives is most solidly "fringe", even among the most liberal Esperanto speakers - and will most certainly lead mostly to puzzled looks.

La komunuma manĝo de la mateno povas diriĝi la komunuma manĝo matene kaj ankaŭ matenes komunuma manĝo.

No, no, and no.

Povas diriĝi is a rather odd expression. Diriĝi is already odd because it suggests that things get said, but without reference to any person or agent actually saying them. It's a very rare term as it is. I found two authors from Tekstaro who used it - apparently with deliberate intention to say something like "things that arose in conversation" without suggesting too crassly that any agent actually said them. However, with povas, it suggests that the sentence has the active ability to arise in conversation.

Ordinarily I wouldn't pick on someone in the forum for this sort of thing - but when you're giving out Esperanto advice - especially advice to use fringe expressions that nobody will understand, I think it's worth pointing things like this out. I firmly believe that if someone is going to make suggestions about how Esperanto could be better, this person needs to have a full understanding of how Esperanto actually works.

But beyond the expression povas diriĝi, the content of this sentence is wrong twice. Assuming i understood you, you said two things:

  • "La komunuma manĝo de la mateno" can be expressed as "la komunuma manĝo matene"

However, matene means "in the morning" not "of the morning". It simply indicates when you are eating the community meal, not which community meal it is.

  • "La komunuma manĝo de la mateno" can be expressed as "matenes komunuma manĝo."

Matenes is not a real Esperanto word - but even if it were, I would expect it to mean "belonging to a morning.

Sed ne estas tiu perfekte logika ebleco enirinta en la uzado.

"But there isn't this perfectly logical possibility gone in within the using".... oh "Sed tiu perfekte logita ebleco ne eniris la uzadon." Yes, you're right. It's not Esperanto.

Praktike, oni devas rezervi ĝin al la esprimo arĥaika (rilate al la historio imagina de la pra-Esperanto) aŭ dialekta, ekzemple de dialekto anglosaksoneska imaginita de E-o kiu estus uzita en Usono.

In fact, the ending -es was part of a proto-Esperanto up till right before La Unua Libro was published - but it was used for something else. I do object, however, to the suggestion that this reform would, could, or should be more popular in the US.

August 24, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Doktoro_Kiu

Thanks for this - I was very confused when I came upon that comment, very relieved when I saw that you responded to it, and very entertained while reading your response.

September 5, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeeMiller9

I'm always amazed when someone who clearly knows neither Esperanto nor English feels so free to appear with authoritative sounding advice . . . and claims it to be based "in reality" to boot.

September 3, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rgvandewalker

"el ili" means something like "out from among them"; "ilia" is possessive: "their"; Not asked, but "de ili" means something like "indicating a relation or attribute of them" (I'm a beginner, so if this is wrong, please correct it.)

September 1, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

I'm confused. What's the motivation to give an answer that you're not sure about, especially if other answers have been given?

September 1, 2019
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