1. Forum
  2. >
  3. Topic: Arabic
  4. >
  5. "عِنْد سيث وِشاح وَتي شيرْت."

"عِنْد سيث وِشاح وَتي شيرْت."

Translation:Seth has a scarf and a t-shirt.

August 24, 2019

48 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LinnetteSi1

I wrote down Seth has a T-shirt and a scarf is that technically correct?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Well, logically it is correct, because we know in logical operations that A (and) B is equal to B (and) A. However, I'm not sure if Duolingo would accept that or not.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bell_Xp

Same here, as i wrote the same in previous revision and it was correct. Come on Duolingo, be consistent please.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maryamista..

Yes you are correct


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

I disagree that it's correct. Yes, as TJ_Q8 says, it is logically correct, but human language is not the same as logic. And since Duolingo needs to check whether we know the vocabulary, it could well have been the case, however unlikely, that the student confused the Arabic for scarf and teeshirt. It is unlikely in this case, but I had once actually not known which colour (brown and white I think) was which and reversed the order because of my ignorance. Logically it was correct, but I had failed in acquiring the necessary knowledge. And Duolingo's fussiness detected that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talha640807

Not related to this phrase but is this course about learning fusha arabic or a dialect of the language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

actually they made a mix of it

there are many words here that aren't quite proper arabic


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TinoAriza

-- and maybe they made a wise choice with that -- it seems in general that people who can proficiently produce well-formed utterances or written texts using اللغة العربية الفصحى frequently switch registers in the midst of discourse, to regional dialects or to less formal registers of MSA -- Duolingo posted something about that in the context of news-media video, like a reporter or news anchor reciting something in good formal MSA and then immediately switching to some less formal register to converse with an interviewee in the field or a studio guest -- like, Duo was explaining they were aiming for a mix kind of like that -- we learners should probably aspire to be able to deal with such situations in the real world -- it's kind of how I imagine it would go at a recital of poetry in الفصحى -- if you chatted in Arabic right after with the poet or other attendees you would probably use a mix of registers --


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ruyalty

I appreciate that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kalanzeh

I feel like it's not healthy to be inconsistent tho-why can't Duolingo make more courses for different dialects?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

I remember before this course was open for participants, they had the flag of Egypt shown instead of the Arab League. So, apparently this was supposed to be an Egyptian dialect course probably and then something happened and the course changed. I call what Duolingo is doing here is, teaching "Traveler's Arabic". Arabic dialects specially these in use by Duolingo here all belong to the Eastern Arabic category and we do understand each other despite the differences in tones, stress or some words. I know some people would laugh when they hear someone speak standard (fusHa) Arabic and that's why some learners don't like it and prefer learning a dialect altogether, but personally I think this is in part a low manner and a lack of etiquette by the people, and not the learners who try to communicate. I personally don't find anything funny about speaking fusHa.
Anyway, no language on Duolingo can be learned only by Duolingo. Thus, you just get the kick-start from here and then find other resources out there to build your knowledge brick by brick. That is how it usually goes. As for the inconsistencies in Duolingo, well, as I said, they can get you around after all and my guess is that the contributors are from different parts (and probably some of them born and raised as immigrants and in non-Arab countries) so maybe this is what causes the inconsistencies further.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aralingo.app

No, it is Egyptian dialect


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vsandl

Usual GB spelling "tee shirt" not accepted!!! Reported April 2020


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Nothing GB is accepted! We just have to suffer in silence. What about Duolingo's American "I do not have..." instead of our "I haven't got..."! Again and again.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vsandl

But Duo accepts "gotten" (ouch!)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Well, "gotten" is in accordance with their penchant for American English, isn't it? But as a matter of fact, I used to feel as you do about "gotten" until it was pointed out to me that it is useful linguistically. It differentiates the present participle (gotten) from the simple past (got) whereas in my native English the two are identical. And I suppose it is more useful to give a different form to different roles of a word. So I've had to retrain myself, and though I can't quite bring myself to use "gotten" , unless I'm feeling very brave, I try to take it calmly when I hear it said.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vsandl

Afraid I'm too old to be happy about Americanisms taking over British English, but I know that many are in fact old English and we have moved on. Have a lingot for your tolerance!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Dear vsandl, thanks for the lingot, though I don't quite understand its purpose. But you got me interested in the word lingot, which I thought was English, but it isn't. It's French for the English ingot, which is a pieces of rectangularish moulded metal (my rough definition). And I was spaced out to read in the respective monolingual dictionaries (Petit Robert and Collins) that despite the similirarity of the two words they are not etymologically connected, but happen to both date (I have nothing against split infinitives) from the 14th century! The one possibly from lingua/langue, because of the similarity in shape (!) and the other possibly from IN+ Old English geotan 'to pour'. Isn't that curious! Two questions: a) why does Duolingo use a French word? b) what do I use it for?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kobold83015

I always thought of it as a "language ingot", a linguistic ingot --> = lingot ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

kobold83015, you clever thing! That's what it must be. And just a coincidence that the French for ingot is lingot.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vsandl

Hi Katie... No reply function on your very informative message, so vdoi g it here. No idea why Duo uses a French word; Duo is a law unto itself. I always think of gold ingots. I once heard of someone who bought his daughter one for her 21st birthday and she kept it in the butter dish in the fridge. What are they for here? You can use them to buy from the Duo shop (most useful is to buy a "freeze" so that you can take a break without losing your "streak". Otherwise, in some lessons you can spend them to take a test to jump ahead. Essential in some of the longer, more boring exercises.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mintchocolate190

is there an original Arabic word for "t-shirt"? I mean not taken from English.

for ex in Italian we say "t-shirt" but we have an Italian word which is "maglietta".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

A typical name for any garment worn on the upper part of the body (and I'd say for men specifically) would be قميص (qamíc); which is the root for the Spanish Camisa. So, this is a general name in fact and not dedicated specifically to a special style of the garment.
However, in our times now and with the dialects, in many dialects the word قميص refers specifically to the garment with buttons. Button-less shirt, can be called sometimes fanílah or fanillah in some dialects (and its more to note the underwear garment) - but this word is obviously not Arabic originally.

The plural of قميص is قمصان (qumcán).

Notice that I use "c" instead of "ss" or "S" for the sound of ص.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mintchocolate190

@TJ_Q8

thanks :) in Italian we say "camicia" to indicate man upper garment with buttons. in French they say "chemise". both are really similar to Arabic and Spanish.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Yep, maybe Arabs borrowed "back" this usage from Europe. However, according to thesaurus books, قميص is a general term for every garment for the upper part with and without garment. There are special additives (adjectives) added to specify more the style of this garment, like for example قميص قصير الأكمام (qamíc qacír al-akmám), literally shirt of short sleeves and that i think is more like a t-shirt. But I doubt it would be used that way.
There is also another term I see here, and it's probably more ancient and many people don't know about and probably it is even closer to t-shirt, and that is غِلالَة (ğilálah); according to the thesaurus it describes it as light shirt. So maybe this term is closer to t-shirt but I don't hear people now use any term close to this word really.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mintchocolate190

@TJ_Q8 :

thanks for explaining.

in Italian too the most generic term is "maglietta" and we add other words to define better (for ex: "maglietta + a maniche corte" means : "t-shirt + with short sleeves") .

we have a word which is similar to "gilalah" which is "gilet" (word we borrowed from French) but it's not a t-shirt, it's a thing for men, without sleeves and with buttons in the front, but not always. I think the right word to describe it is "waistcoat".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Quite interesting.
I do feel that gilet is indeed borrowed from غِلالَة because, well, the meaning is the same in general: a light shirt. By the way, I do use www.almaany.com which is a dictionary and a thesaurus for Arabic into various languages but unfortunately it has no Italian. Could be useful. I prefer it over google translate because, well, google translate is simply shallow (specially when it comes to scientific terminology).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vsandl

"gilet" Is French for waistcoat. It has now come into English as a term for a padded waistcoat, usually with plenty of pockets, as worn by market traders of both sexes in wintry weather.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

I'm interested to know why you use "c" for the emphatic S. Is there a tradition of doing that? Personally, I find it confusing, because in general at the end of a word in the Roman alphabet (at least in English and French) "c" is pronounced as "k". I would have thought that to convey a sound that doesn't exist in English, it's more user-friendly to use a symbol that indicates there's something special about it. "ss" wouldn't do, because it looks quite normal in English (and French), but I think Duolingo's capital S is perfect for this. I am open to correction.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Actually the idea of typing "c" for ص rose up when I created my conlang (constructed language) which I've called Ayvarith. I've made the sound into this language. Anyway, as I was trying to come up with a transliteration system for it, I noticed that "c" is not used in any sound, so I thought instead of typing capital "S" or "ss," which to me they look ambiguous, it would be better to use "c" since it's not assigned to any sound in my conlang.
Years went on, and here I am, I thought of using "c" for this sound when explaining Arabic, as well as putting some of the transliteration tips that I've created for my conlang into use to explain Arabic, e.g. using accents on vowels instead of doubling the vowel. I've created indeed a full transliteration system for typing Arabic here and posted about it long time ago on Duolingo forums but it was still ambiguous a bit.
I do also use (þ) for the sound of TH in (thought), and I'm thinking of using the Greek δ for the sound of Eth (as TH in This) - in my old system this was the Icelandic ð. Adding to that a number of other letters.

All in all, I'm trying to reduce the representations for phonemes as much as possible. Because Arabic sometimes has double consonants (Shaddah) so it would like unpleasant if صّ would be written as -ssss- or -SS-
I'm still thinking of ways to represent ظ and ض (as well as ح) efficiently with a single symbol instead of DH or Dh and the like.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Very interesting. I quite like þ for TH as in (thought), and perhaps δ for TH in (this). But δ designated the sound "d" in ancient Greek, so if you're going to use special characters, why not use the IPA ð (which is, as you say, also used in Icelandic, as, indeed, as I have just learned, is þ ) for the voiced fricative, and the IPA (and ancient Greek) θ for the unvoiced? Question is, do more people know Icelandic or IPA? I don't understand your objection to S for emphatic "s"? It's not ambiguous, is it? Same goes for D and T for emphatic "d" and "t" respectively. Remains the problems of emphatic ð... Ah, perhaps a capital delta with a bar through it, on the model of ð?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Well, the case here is actually about how easy it is FOR ME to type these symbols. I can type (þ) easily by pressing ALT+0254 on keyboard (the numbers must be pressed on the side keypad and not the top row of number buttons, not sure why). However, the Icelandic Eth, was and still is hard for me to type and the code is, well, not easy to compose using the ALT method (it works in Microsoft Word but not in editing boxes like this one here). So, to type it, I'd usually have to use a program that comes with Windows called Charmap, and from there, I dig the Eth and paste it here.
As for the Greek letters, they are easy for me to type because I've installed the Greek keyboard on my system since I use these characters for Math (and I've installed a number of other keyboard systems as well). However, I don't like the idea of installing the Icelandic keyboard ONLY to type Eth. Adding to that, Windows limited my addition of keyboard short-cuts; I can only add 5 hotkeys (shortcuts to change between keyboards quickly) and I've used up all my 5 vacancies. So, since the Greek keyboard is already installed and I need it for other purposes, I could borrow and change from that to English back again quickly instead of adding a new keyboard like Icelandic and make a mess. Thus, as you can see, the thing is purely technical that's why I like to use Greek letters.
As for people, I can simply explain (as I explained the case of "c") for people when they read my posts.
As for using "S", well, it is my opinion that when typing it is better to let all the typing be in minuscules or small letters just to avoid mixing up as much as possible. There is always a chance to mix up between "s" and "S" when typing a transliteration, while the two do represent different sounds. I'd even use numbers like (3) for ع (and this is what we do in chatting online usually) but people are already having ambiguous moments with (3) as it is. People are not used to see numbers with letters altogether, that's why I don't like the idea of using (6) for ط and (7) for ح...etc. It might cause a mix up with new comers. Unfortunately though, I'm still not sure how to represent some of these sounds. I'm thinking, again, of using Greek letters. like θ for ط since (þ) is already used for ث - but I'm not sure of this move yet.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mintchocolate190

@TJ_Q8 :

Thanks for the link ❤️ it will be really useful. Even if there's no Italian version I can use it in English, French or Spanish. I really needed a good dictionary, I had tried using Google translate but the results are not too accurate.
"Grazie" (Thank you in Italian) :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SusanWiczy

Question for native Arabic speakers: I am confused about "aynd" (sorry; I don't have an Arabic keyboard!) meaning possessiveness. If we add the "y" ending to indicate "I have" and the "-ik/-uk" endings to indicate "you have", why in the sentence "Seth has..." is there no ending? Shouldn't there be an "-oo" as in "he has?" I'm confused why "aynd" seems to have suffixes for some conjugations and not for others. Thank you for your help!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Since you are using (3inda) directly before the noun or the person's name, then no need to the representative suffix for "he" (-hu); Simply: 3inda Seth (literally: at Seth).
If you want to start with the name (i.e. Seth), then you would need to add the -hu suffix to refer back to the person: Seth 3indahu (Seth has).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DzakyPange

I think Arabic grammar is has Similiarities with indonesian grammar, but different with the gender word only


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aralingo.app

And pronunciation is wrong


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RahmaSaid10

Who else was a little confused when they clicked on the arabic word for the meaning on the last two words... I know I am....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/roseasemanie

So verb comes first? عند سیث وشاح؟


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Well, عند in Arabic is not a verb, but a preposition which literally means at. So, عند سيث literally means at Seth.
As for the beginning of the sentence, Arabic is flexible to some extent. However, there are majorly 2 types of sentences in Arabic: Nominal (starting with a noun) and Verbal (starting with a verb). Nominal sentences can even be completed without using any verbs. For example: الرجل طويل (ar-rajulu Tawíl) the man is tall. In English, you'd need to use the verb "to be" ("is" in our case here) to connect the subject and the predicate of the sentence to give a meaning, but in Arabic this is not required (unless it is about a past event or a future one, then the verb "to be" is used).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

It's exactly the same in Russian. No need for the copula "to be" in the present. However, the Russian equivalent to عند (y) takes the genitive case, and no Russian would dream of using the nominative, which seems to be the case in Arabic. You may say that this is only the dialects, not in MSA, but that is how the dialects have developed - languages have a tendency to simplify as they age - whereas Russian has retained its cases, even in casual speech. Actually, it's dropped one - the vocative - except when addressing god. English too has largely shed its cases. This is neither good nor bad. It's a natural language process. English has even almost totally lost its conjugations!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ayesha364885

word order has me confused


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

Word order do have some flexibility in Arabic. However, Duolingo is not good with this matter, as is the case in Turkish and Russian, as I've witnessed personally.

Anyway, literally what it says here: at Seth/scarf/and/T-shirt
You can bring the possessed (scarf and t-shirt) to the beginning, but typically you should start with (hunák: هناك), which literally means (there is). So, we can say here for example: هناك وشاح وتي شيرت عند سيث.
However, I don't think Duolingo would accept such sentence or order because of the way it was programmed and prepared.
and I don't want to talk here about the strange names and structures that Duolingo uses.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidCarver

not sure why Duo doesn't accept my spelling - "tee-shirt"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1382

report it

there are many fixes that need to be done to this course anyway


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Christelle33155

Tee shirt and t shirt is same.... ufffff

Learn Arabic in just 5 minutes a day. For free.