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  5. "Omar's rice is cold."

"Omar's rice is cold."

Translation:رُزّ عُمَر بارِد.

August 25, 2019

20 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oakheartz

Why is this not "Roz al-Omar"? I though you had to add an -al before the second word when using adjectives.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1406

This is true for regular nouns. Here we have a proper name which is defined logically on its own. Like in English, You can't say the James, same thing in Arabic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

I suppose what you call "regular nouns" we in England call "common nouns". And the others, "proper nouns". The latter denote names. Is it different in US? I suppose I make this intervention because I chafe at the word "regular" which is supplanting the English English "normal, ordinary..."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1406

Well, not sure what they call it in the US, but what I mean by regular nouns as simply nouns of "thing" or objects and such, as oppose to proper names of people.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Oh, yes, your meaning was quite clear. I was just interested in the grammatical terms. In normal life that's not quite acceptable, but I think it may be when one is discussing language? :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1406

could be - i really didn't put much thought into it. I also use the term "regular nouns" when I discuss Arabic grammar as some nouns are declined differently than the "norm" (e.g. plurals). I'd also use the term (regular masculine plural) or (regular feminine plural) as opposed to (irregular plural) - so it's all my own rendition actually as I'm not sure what the proper English terminology is, exactly.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Well, this use of "regular" for declensions or conjugations that follow a particular pattern is the very word that's used in English, to distinguish them from irregular nouns and verbs. I think it's quite important that people use the same terms, to avoid misunderstandings. Since the vocabulary exists, why improvise a new one?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Aronel10

I believe the US English is the same, "common" nouns, not "regular" nouns. What we call irregular plurals in English are actually quite common in Arabic, so that's probably why I've always heard the Arabic ones referred to as "broken plurals" instead of "irregular plurals." The irregular is regular in Arabic, so it would be potentially confusing in that sense. But as long as we understand each other, that what's important.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Hm. Here in Britain, we talk of regular and irregular nouns. "Common noun" is opposed to "proper noun". Do you not have that in Us? But that's very interesting about "broken plurals" in Arabic. It makes sense if they're so frequent (common!).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1406

Plurals in Arabic are of 3 types, I will translate their names literally here:

  • Masculine "intact" plural: جمع مذكر سالم (jam3 muThakkar sálim).
  • Feminine "intact" plural: جمع مؤنث سالم (jam3 mu2annath sálim).
  • Breaking plural: جمع تكسير (jam3 taksír).

In the "intact" types, the noun is not changed, but simply a suffix is added to the noun to achieve the plural: -ún ـون for the masculine, and -át ـات for the feminine. Examples: Muslim men/males مسلمون (muslimún), and Muslim women/females مسلمات (muslimát). And notice that when a group is of mixed genders then typically the masculine form is used to refer to such group.
As for the last type, the breaking plural, this is when the word needs to be altered in construction to achieve the plural. They are common in Arabic and DO have specific measures on how to extract a plural out of a noun but most of the time it is a work of memory (the derivation of such plurals is beyond the scope here and discussed in language books). For example: Nail (not finger's) مسمار (mismár), Nails مسامير (masámír). We can argue that any noun that goes in structure like مسمار would have the same structure in plural like it (مسامير). Example: Telescope مقراب (miqráb), Telescopes مقاريب (maqáríb).

It can happen sometimes that a word would have more than one plural as well, for something called "minimal plural" جمع قلة (jam3 qillah) and "maximal plural" جمع كثرة (jam3 kathrah), where the former is used for counting objects from 3 to 10, and the latter is for more than 10 or general plural. Example: Month شهر (šahr), 3-10 أشهر (ašhur), 10< شهور (šuhúr).

Also, some words might have 2 plurals of the intact and breaking type and the reasons for that can vary, but mainly because around the start of the 20th century, some reforms and standards were set for the language and the "intact" type was standardized, and thus some words would have a common "breaking" plural and with the reforms it can have an "intact" plural, but generally speaking, the rule says to go with the most common and widely used plural if it exists. Example: worker عامل (3ámil), plural can be عمّال (3ummál), breaking type apparently, and عاملون (3ámilún), intact type. The two are used in fact for different purposes but that's a story for another time.

So, when I usually try to explain the plurals, I would use "regular" for the "intact" type and "irregular" for the "breaking" type, because "intact" and "breaking" might sound a bit strange for learners, specially of European background. As for commonality, well, it's hard for me to say, but I tend to think that the breaking type of plurals is pretty common. And despite being "irregular" or breaking, there is quite a systematic way to guess the plural out of most of the nouns, though this systematic method requires some memory and measuring words with each other, like the examples of "Nail" and "Telescope" above.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Thank you very much, TJ_Q8! This is so hard for our little Western brains!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hamida846518

Maybe, because of the mudhof ilaih in Arabic structure.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MiyaraYuki1518

Yes(⌒▽⌒)(❁ᴗ͈ˬᴗ͈)◞


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Perhaps you could explain mudhoh ilaih to us ignoramuses.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1406

mudhof ilaih = mudhaaf ilayh = مضاف إليه = Genitive structure


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Thank you very much, TJ_Q8. I passed مضاف إليه through Google Translate, and it gave me "added to it". إليه was translated as "mechanism" and مضاف as "added". How does that work? مضاف must be related to what we've learned as iDaafa... It's all so mysterious to me!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1406

Google Translate is mistaking the word إليه (ilayh: to it/him) with another word: آلية (aaliyyah) meaning mechanism.
The word إليه is formed by adding the suffix ـه (for him) to the preposition إلى (to): إلى + ـه = إليه.
On the other hand, the word آليّة (mechanism) is derived from another noun: آلة (aalah) meaning machine or device. Notice the difference between the two in terms of the type of the Hamza in the beginning of the word and the ending of the word (the former ends with "H" and the latter ends with Ta-marbútah).
Whoever made the input into Google Translate's database did not pay attention (if not ignorant) for the differences.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

How is مضاف إليه different from إِضَافَة ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TJ_Q8
  • 1406

Well, you can say that إضافة is the name of the process (literal meaning: addition). So, we can say it somewhat corresponds to "Genitive" in English but Genitive is an adjective and إضافة is a noun.

On the other hand, مضاف إليه (literally: added to it) is used to note the noun that had been added to.
Example:
The door of the house: باب البيت;
Here: باب (door) is called مضاف (mudhaaf), i.e. "added", while البيت (the house) is called مضاف إليه (mudhaaf ilayh), i.e. "added to it".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatieC993112

Thank you very much for explaining this.

However, "genitive" is used as a noun and as an adjective in English.

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