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  5. "Livia non in urbe studet."

"Livia non in urbe studet."

Translation:Livia does not study in the city.

August 27, 2019

93 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MyNameIsTaken7

So latin word order is SOV


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jtj1125

Latins word order is flexible but the common word order is SOV


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Quidam_Homo

There's no "O" in this sentence, so this might not be the best place to have this particular discussion, but Latin is certainly not strictly SVO. It is only around half of Latin sentences that end with the verb. It's perfectly common for the verb to be the first word on the sentence, or the object, or for the subject to come at the end.

In subordinate clauses the word order is more predictable, and there is a stronger tendency for the verb to be placed at the end.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrankN.Stein

Usually, but he word order can be changed for emphasis. Livia non in urbe studet emphasizes the city - she studies, but not in the city. Livia non studet in urbe emphasizes the study - she is in the city, but doesn't study. Both is translated Livia doesn't study in the city.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bsun95

"Livia non studet in urbe" is accepted now, also. (Fast response time; I'm impressed.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/charly396845

Yes: in urbe non studet- that',s what I learned at school...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

SOV/SVO with pro-drop and a very high degree of leniency regarding word order


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Yes, but why "S" at the beginning?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

Because "cartam dat" doesn't carry any information regarding the fact that Constantinus is doing it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lfd

I reported the audio here, it seems to me that the L in Livia is not properly enounced, and that the e in urbe is too open and loud, almost as if it was urbet. Nearly incomprehensible.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mark104252

I have had to report the audio on this course a lot


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/manoferu

I totally agree with you. Almost impossible to understand.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Origin5world5_

Is Latin like Arabic and Turkish in that the word the closest to the verb is stressed? So this sentence means he is stressing that it is not in the city that she's studying (rather she might be studying at her home on the countryside) . If I would say "Livia non studet in urbe" would it be an acceptable sentence meaning that studying is not something she's doing in the city (but maybe just enoying life).?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wiiildfire

That's how I originally read it, too. Livia, not in the city, is studying.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wiiildfire

If Livia in urbe studet means Livia studies in the city, then Livia non in urbe studet seems to translate that she's not in the city, but studying.

Does non go with in urbe, or studet, or in urbe studet? and is the answer the rule for all future Latin sentences?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/obsidianadept

I think typically the adverb "non" modifies the verb. Here the distinction is not as clear. If the distinction was necessary for meaning, I think the sentence would use a negative adjective like "in nulla urbe" (in no city) to avoid ambiguity. In general adverbs associate with their nearest word or phrase, but this is definitely not always true especially in poetry and real Latin


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I will play my grammar nazi, but are you sure "non" is an adverb in Latin? It works like an adverb, but I'm not quite sure, as I didn't find sources.

"Non, none" can be an adverb in English. But in Latin, it's a "negative particle".

Please, if I'm wrong, I'd like the link to learn something new. I'm specially interested if a grammarian or a linguist replies.

I'm saying it smoothly. Smoothly is an adverb, because it modifies the way I "say" it.

I'm not saying it. Is not an adverb, as it doesn't modify, modulate the way.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

In most other IE languages it's considered an adverb, so we've been trained to look at it that way. In Latin it functions more like a particle, indeed.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Thank you for your answer. In most IE languages, I don't know, but in French, I'm almost certain it's nerver considered as an adverb. I don't know why.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

Not entirely accurate. The "ne" functions the same way as in Latin (in the context of negating verbs), but the "pas", "jamais", "rien", "personne", "nulle part", etc. are all considered « adverbes de négation ». The "ne" is dropped a lot anyway since it's a bit redundant at times.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Thank you Talos. Yes, "ne" is dropped, as it's redundant, but it's still bad grammar (only accepted orally) (just saying). Thank you for your grammar/linguistic lesson, I appreciate.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MLMBP

This makes sense, but it's not a typical Latin sentence. If the writer wants to deny that Livia is in the city, he or she would probably also specify where she is: non in urbe studet, sed ruri "not in the city but in the country."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

So, if I don't mention the clause "sed ruri", and make it implied, the sentence is a bit ambiguous.

Non in urbe studet (sed ruri). = she doesn't study there.
But can study elsewhere.
Non in urbe studet = she doesn't study (in the city or elsewhere)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michael27506

I thought it would be, Livia in urbe non studet. But im rather new to Latin.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

No — the reason for this is that "nōn" comes before the thing it's negating. "Not in the city"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FilippoDai2

I agree with you


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Draiglladwr

Do I hear an 'f' sound at the beginning of Livia


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/o4tuna

The pronunciation of "Livia" is awful, and the poor audio engineering doesn't help. To my ear, it sounds like "FLOO wee uh". At the very least, the f-like noise at the beginning of the clip should be edited out.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

I'm sure the volunteer course contributors are doing the best they can with the hardware and software at their disposal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HongEunPark

Sorry about that Korean only comment, This is for Korean users who learn Latin

틀림없이 저처럼 호기심으로 또는 영어 공부 더 파 보실려고 하시는 분 계실거라 생각 해서 정보 공유합니다.

  • Livia non in urbe studet
  • 주어 + 부정어 + 부사 + 동사
  • Latin word order가 SOV인건 알겠는데 부정어를 쓰는 방법이 Korean word order와 다른 것 같습니다.
  • 한국어 어순으로 굳이 직역 하자면
  • "리비아가 아냐 도시에 공부하는거" 정도로 해석이 되는데
  • "리비아가 도시에서 공부하지 않아" 라고 동사와 붙여서 쓰는 것은 아직 발견 하지 못했습니다 (2020-04-27)
  • 추후 새로운 지식이 쌓이면 수정 하겠습니다.

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dksqudwns

문법이 너무 헷갈렸는데 알려주셔서 감사합니다. 근데 라틴어에서는 리위야 아닌가요? 혹시 제가 너무 말꼬리잡은거이면 죄송합니다.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nerguy_pablo

The pronunciation here almost sounds like "orbe", which would be a different thing. Hence why I reported the audio.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gsp732649

is there a locative for urbs? just asking bcz i am not smart enuf 2 know. i noticed locative always used for "at home".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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No, there is no locative for "urbs". I'm sure they would be using it if it existed.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

You are smarter than you though: you study Latin (and your question is smart)

There's no locative in use, but an archaic locative form does exist, it's Urbei.

http://www.dicolatin.com/FR/LAK/0/URBS/index.htm

It seems it did exist in (very?) early Latin.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Christine406282

Can anyone break down the pronunciation of "Livia"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

L - clear L like in Spanish "luz" or French "lumière" (note that it can be a dark L /ɫ/ in a lot of other phonetic contexts)

Ī - /iː/ like in "feet"

V - /w/ like in "woman"

I - /ɪ/ as in "fit", can even approach /i/ in this case (which would be like in "feet" but said shorter)

A - /a/, front like in Spanish "carro" or French "ballon"

Three syllables: "LEE-wih-ah"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jgb.me

Woudn't "non" come before the verb to deny it? Why does it come before the expression "in urbe"? Wouldn't it change the meaning of the sentence?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

In English, "Livia does not study in the city" is ambiguous. It could mean "Livia does not STUDY in the city" or it could mean "Livia does not study IN THE CITY".

In Latin, the "non" goes before what it negates, although "non in urbe studet" is just as ambiguous as the English. If it were "in urbe non studet" that would force the "does not STUDY" meaning. Both ways ought to be accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JfmLange

Program doesn't accept "doesn't" instead of "does not". Failure, which costs me my good health.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hethalee

Why is "Livia doesn't study in the city" not acceptable as a translation?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

Oversight. Next time, flag it and report "My answer should be accepted."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/susiechoi2149

How do you say" Livia studies but not in the city.? Livia studet non in urbe?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Wood1

Why is it not "Studium"? I'm learning latin through other means, and verbs usually take a gendered suffix?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

Do you have any sources that say that Latin verbs are gendered? Because that is not a feature in most Indo-European languages.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Wood1

yes, here's a snippet- "Most verbs do not show grammatical gender: the same ending is used whether the subject is "he", "she", or "it". However, when a verb is made periphrastically out of a participle and part of the verb sum "I am", the participle shows gender, for example:

missus est "he was sent" missa est "she was sent" Impersonal verbs, such as nūntiātum est "it was reported", are neuter singular."

I'm not the best at the English language; this is the case, no?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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Participials derive from verbs, but they function as adjectives. That is why they show gender agreement.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zSex3

Can this sentence be translated like this ? "Livia is studying, but not in the city" "Livia non in urbe studet."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

No, because then you need the word 'sed'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ArielMedin948128

Here, the system accepts the position of non away from the verb. In other cases, the system does not accept it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

The "non" could be negating "in urbe".

Just saying "it's different in other places" tells us nothing. We would have to know the exact sentence and your exact translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ArielMedin948128

I placed "non" before the verb. System did not accept it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

We would have to know the exact sentence and your exact translation.

I placed "non" before the verb. System did not accept it.

Again, that does not provide any context. That is a vague description of what you did. That is not an exact sentence with your exact translation. That is not enough to go on. You're making me guess.

If the "non" was meant to negate something other than the verb and you put it after that, that's why. As I said, in a sentence like this, the "non" could be negating "in urbe" and not "studet".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dolores557665

Why "Livia does not studies in the city" ? I can put "Livia don't study in the city....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

No, neither of those are correct. It's "Livia does not study in the city." The "does" carries the tense of the verb, so we use the bare infinitive "study" here. And it's "Livia does", not "Livia do".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrandonSlats13

Would "Livia in urbe non studet" work?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

It should.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DPW7P

Is Livia studying in the country or is she goofing off in the city? That is, what is the "non" negating? The urbe or the studet?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nguyenhuy937691

I think we can accept the answer "Livia doesn't study in the city"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

Yes, I do believe that is on the list of accepted answers.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zU60uNOa

After many listenings I can’t understand The name Livia!


[deactivated user]

    Just wanted to say i love the little animation :)


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulus217503

    Livia is pronounced miria


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    This is not the place to report issues. Next time something sounds wrong, flag it and report a problem with the audio.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michael27506

    Would, Livia in urbe non studet, also work?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zU60uNOa

    Yes, Michael, then it may mean that she isn’t a student rather than she is one, but doesn’t study in this city


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SANDHUASEES

    Nice sentence. But i was somewhat confused at the order


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

    The order can be any combination of {Līvia}, {nōn in urbe}, and {studet}, given that we are negating 'in a/the city'. The order we're presented with here is a rather natural one, but it can be any combination of the above parts.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JenniferMa820189

    Fault on this one. Kept saying I had typed in english


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Domy13032005

    I just use doesn't, it's the same as does not


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MLMBP

    Studet without an object isn't "study"--https://logeion.uchicago.edu/studeo


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    What word do you propose to replace "studet" with, then?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MLMBP

    One choice would be "legit"--"she reads" or "laborat"--"she works"; another would be to give "studet" an object (in the dative): "litteris studet"--"she studies literature."


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    • 2614

    Why the dative and not accusative?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/obsidianadept

    In Latin many verbs take the dative instead of the accusative. This is very common for compound verbs which have preposition prefixes. In the case of studet, it is because it has the primary idea of "be eager for"

    The verb credo, credere - to trust also takes the dative because it has the idea of "give trust to"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Matthias1414

    Isn't this what studying means? To give attention to, to be eager with, to be zealous, to take pains, to be diligent, to be busy with, to be devoted, to strive after, to apply oneself, to pursue, to desire, to wish... All examples come from the dictionary you mentioned.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

    I don't see where they mean it's always transitive.

    I make a search, to see if *studere could be listed as a transitive or intransitive verb. I found an old Latin grammar book in French:

    "Quelques verbes sont transitifs en français et intransitifs en latin, et réciproquement. Ainsi étudier est transitif, studere est intransitif; sciscitari est transitif"

    Source here: https://books.google.fr/books?id=f24ZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229&dq=studere+transitive&source=bl&ots=wILCEs0elg&sig=ACfU3U2T1_JBzz9Va38oPcY-Hlt3KMrY1w&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiTrpSG7tfkAhUKXRoKHZkWCPMQ6AEwAXoECCgQAQ#v=onepage&q=studere%20transitive&f=false

    Roughly translated by:
    Some verbs are transitive in French and intransitive in Latin, and vice versa. Thus to study (étudier) in French is transitive, studere is intransitive ; sciscitari is transitive "

    Note that this grammar really consider that studere = étudier = to study.

    On the wiktionary:
    studeō, infinitif : studēre, parfait : studuī (pas de supin) intransitif. Note : suivi du datif.

    Studere is intransitive, so it's the opposite, you can't use it in proper Latin if there's an object to study.

    According to this grammar, you can say "I study Latin" in English, as the verb can be used both transitively or intransitively, but you can't say "studere Latin" in Latin.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ArielMedin948128

    Here, the system does not put the 'non' immediately before the verb, but in other situations, the system demands that the 'non' be placed immediately after the verb. It is inconsistent.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    • 2614

    The "non" must come before the thing it negates. If you see "non" after the verb, then it's negating something else, not the verb.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Talos_the_Cat

    Just like in just about every European language, it depends on the thing you're negating


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JfmLange

    And I wrote "livia does not study in the city" without capital L for Livia, without dot after the sentence - as I mostly don't do dots, commata, capitals. why is this one all at once wrong?!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    • 2614

    Please flag it in-lesson and report "My answer should be accepted."

    Although Duolingo's weird issues with contractions is mostly at the programming level and not something the course contributors can necessarily address.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

    The capital letters, the comas, and the dots, in short, punctuation, are not counted in Duolingo. In other course, it's just ignored by the software, so here, it must be the same.

    You probably mistyped something, "Livia does not study in the city" is the correction given by Duolingo to me.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jeff507986

    I wrote "studies not" as opposed to does not study, is this acceptable in latin?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    • 2614

    The question is whether that's how people say it in English. It is not.

    Latin: non studet
    English: does not study


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Vanya_Bu

    In the Latin sentence, I think, there's no definite article before "in urbe", however, when I've typed in the answer the system said it's incorrect which is not true. Pls, fix this


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    • 2614

    Latin has no articles, definite or indefinite.

    English has articles, but those don't go before prepositional phrases. It's "in the city", not "the in city". And the official translation is "Livia does not study in the city".

    Also, this is a forum for learners to help each other understand the lessons. The volunteer course contributors do not (and can not) monitor these threads for feedback. If you ever feel a correct answer was marked wrong, you need to hit the little flag icon before continuing to the next prompt and report "My answer should be accepted."

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