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  5. "Ea Novi Eboraci studet."

"Ea Novi Eboraci studet."

Translation:She studies in New York.

August 27, 2019

81 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zia177448

XD I'm looking forward to the discussions on this one! I know enough people are bothered by "Nueva York" in the Spanish course and "Novi Eboraci" kind of adds an extra level of fun! ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ernesto813220

Do you imagine the New York song in latin? ~Nova Eboraci Nova Eboraci~


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KimACRowden

Wouldn't it be ”Novum Eboracum, Novum Eboracum” ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alexey914898

Yes, if it were a Roman fortress/castle or a small town (castrum/castellum (neut.), oppidum (neut.)) then it would be Novum Eboracum. But since this is a city (urbs/civitas (fem.)) but not a fortress/castle/small town it was supposed to be a feminine word. I guess it could be Nova Eboraca(s) :) Like Nueva York.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/1e7nx0WG

Do the genders of Roman place names really follow the gender of the Latin word for the type of place to which the name belongs, as you appear to be suggesting?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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No, they don't. The grammatical gender of the name of a thing rarely has anything to do with the grammatical gender of the thing. (One key exception I can think of is people's names. Names of men are grammatically masculine, names of women are grammatically feminine.)

Tangentially related, but although adjectives must agree in gender, number, and case with the noun it modifies, an adjective's declension is what it is. It is possible, for example, to have a 2nd declension adjective modifying a 4th declension noun.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OzXDkf

Ok )) For my Ukrainian ear 'Novi Eboraci' sounds like New Beets, - [novi buraki]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kevin628728

I thought the same. I couldnt make it out because of the blending of the end of Novi with the beginning of Eboraci


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alf-Sawman

May I add "Ny Jordvik", which is the modern Norwegian version of the viking name? (York as the town in the UK got it's name this way; 'Jordvik' literally means "soil/earth bay". 'Ny' is obviously the Scandinavian flavour of the word 'new'.). :-D


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Just a note in passing on the name of York. It was actually originally Celtic, not Norse, in the form Eburakōn, probably meaning "place of the yew". It was then borrowed into Latin as Eboracum, then into Old English as Eoforwic, then the Danes took that and named it Jórvík. Each successive wave of people changed and reanalysed the word to try to make sense of it (e.g. the -wic and -vík parts) but in origin it was Celtic. There's more info on the elsewhere in the comments and also here.

PS I like the idea of "Ny Jordvik"! Would Norwegians now spell it as one word - Nyjordvik?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VincentM929983

Whats the break down of the name new York. New is pretty obvious. Whats the connection to York?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Robbadob

The name of the town York actually comes from the Latin word Eborācum through a complex series of changes. The Latin word itself comes from the local Celtic word for the area.

Eborācum, 2nd declension: nom. Eborācum, gen. Eborācī, dat. Eborācō.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

And in case anyone's interested, the local Celtic (Brittonic) word was Eborākom or Eburākon. This is probably eburos "yew tree" + -ākon/m "place of, belonging to", or the intial element could be Eburos a Celtic personal name.

Although modern Brittonic languages (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) have lost their case endings, Common Brittonic (CB) had plenty, like Latin. You can see similarities between the Latin and CB endings:

Latin: nom. Eborācum, gen. Eborācī, dat. Eborācō

CB: nom. Eborākom, gen. Eborākī, dat. Eborākūi


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Isaac3972

God I love this website!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dim-ond-dysgwr

In Modern Welsh, York is Efrog (the 'eroded' direct descendant of Eburākon), while New York is Efrog Newydd. (In Irish, meanwhile, it's Nua-Eabhrac.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Plus in Welsh we still use the word efwr, the direct descendant of eburos "yew", although it now refers the somewhat less grand "hogweed". The word still means "yew" in the Goidelic languages though today - Irish iúr, Scottish Gaelic iubhar, Manx euar.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

@Molly526734 Croeso / You're welcome. Yes, these forums come up with some great stuff sometimes!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Molly526734

Wow, i wanted to see the reasoning behind nee york but i learnt so much more! Thank you kind stranger!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HoroTanuki

Proto-Celtic eburos (yew) + -ākos (-ock) -> Eborākom

Brythonic Eborākom

Latin Eborācum

Old English folk-etymological alteration of Eboracum, based on eofor (boar) + wīc (village) -> Eoforwīċ

Old Norse Jór(ví)k

Middle English York, Ȝork


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alf-Sawman

I'll take the liberty to contest your hypothesis here, @Robbadob!

Although it's correct that Eboracum is the Latin (Roman) name of York (which was part of the Roman empire from before ~50 AD), I don't think this name itself developed into York. Rather, the vikings who came from Scandinavia applied their own Norse name; Jōrvík (meaning 'soil/earth bay' or possibly 'horse bay' --> in modern Norwegian 'vik' still means bay, and jord (with a silent 'd' at the end) means soil/earth. However, 'jōr' has also been claimed as a word for horse, which is today 'hest' in Norwegian.)

Btw, there's still a statue of a viking on the town square in York, as a reminder about the viking history.

New York (as the US STATE and city) was renamed by the Brits in 1664 after taking control from the Dutch, who called the place New Amsterdam.

:-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DerAndereLerner

Eboracum is the Latin name of York. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nick_Pr

It was the Roman name for the city of York in England.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dim-ond-dysgwr

Except of course that there was no "England" at the time the Romans were in Britain. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BathHouseFog

It was renamed in honour of the then-Duke of York (Charles II's brother, the future James II) after it was taken from the dutch


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Isaac3972

That makes a lot more sense. I was wondering what kind of changes and time elapse would have to happen for Eboracum to get to York. Turns out a military victory. . . how Roman.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sousquark

New York (city) was New Amsterdam in the area of New Netherlands and was renamed in 1664 when it was taken from the Dutch.

The original York got its name by a series of changes over many centuries. There were plenty of Vikings in York (Jorvik) but not many Dutch.

New York didn't exist when Latin developed so the name has been latinised more recently to make it sound good in Latin lessons.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alf-Sawman

Not sure you got this right, @Isaac3972...

The US city of New York (and hence the state) was renamed from New Amsterdam to New York in 1664 when the Brits won control from the Dutch.

Eboracum, however, was the name for York long before this (i.e. the town York in Yorkshire, North-Eastern England today), which changed into York (old Norse Jorvik) long before...when the Scandinavians (vikings) travelled there after the Romans.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Robert485433

@Alf-Sawman in humble defense of Isaac3972's humoristic embellishment, I first suggest that both agree on the key points, i.e. (id est),

"the Brits won control from the Dutch" (Alf-Sawman) = "a military victory" (point 1); and

"what kind of changes ...for Eboracum to get to York" (Isaac3972) = "Eboracum, however, etc. [....]" (point 2).

Inspiring Punchline: the fact that it was "won" by "military victory" allows the deployment of an incisive, ironic anachronism qua humor, scilicet "...how Roman."

Rae F. MOD's link above has me in a less analytic, laughing mood and I may have missed steps in the logic. Please correct as needed!

all should watch (and enjoy) Rae F. MOD's link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ehsan_Mehmed

Perhaps York in England? Just like between New Zealand and Zealand in the Netherlands


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoseeV64

Zeeland is a province of the Netherlands.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Raven-Winter

Probably the latin name of York (in England) when it was founded, I guess.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kaet
  • 181

Yes, I went to university in York, and it was Eboracum during the Roman conquest.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RicardoSeb15

Good question. I wonder the same and found this on Internet: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eboracum?wprov=sfla1

Eboracum was the name of what today is York in UK.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/daguipa

I don't know for sure, but since the Romans had a presence in Britain (Britannia), I guess it is probably the Latin name of the English city later called York.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DanielePrisco17

The Romans used to call Eburacum the city of York


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MinhTranDo

Is Novi Eboraci in locative case? So -um will change into -i in locative?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stergi3

Imin ancient Greek it is 'Εβόρακον for York. But it is the ancient name. It is Υόρκη in Modern Greek. So I am not sure it is right Eborakum in a modern view of Latin


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

So Eborakon, and Yorkè (for the ones who can't read Greek letters.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatNefE

The β is actually more like a latin v if I'm not mistaken,


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

In Modern Greek, yes, β is /v/ but in Ancient Greek it was /b/.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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In the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet), /β/ is very similar to /v/ except you make it with both of your lips instead of your teeth and lips.

http://www.ipachart.com/


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Yeah, the sound of β in Ancient Greek (/b/), Modern Greek (/v/) and the IPA are all different!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nick_Pr

Is that the sound Spanish uses for the letter "v"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shwmae

Yep, and for b in some cases.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ViolaM9d

How would one say, 'She studies New York' then? [Because New York is a complicated place worthy of study in itself....] I guess what I am getting at is: would the Latin word 'in' be appropriate to the meaning attributed to the Latin phrase...?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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"She studies in New York" means New York is where she is located while she studies. As a city, it takes the locative case and becomes "Ea Novi Eboraci studet."

"She studies New York" means New York is what she studies. It's the direct object of the verb and takes the accusative case. It's 2nd declension neuter, so the accusative looks the same as the nominative and becomes "Ea studet Novum Eboracum." The verb could go last, as it often does, but in this case it makes it a little bit clearer what the distinction between subject and object is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/1e7nx0WG

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I am correct in saying that studeo is one of a small number of verbs that takes the dative case (rather than the accusative), so He/she studies New York should be Novo Eboraco studet.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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That is correct. "Studere" literally means "to dedicate oneself to", which is why it takes the dative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RyanStupor

Why is it that "She is in New York studying" was not accepted?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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Oversight. You can flag it and report "My answer should be accepted."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/michahell

Oh come on man, why do the city names have to be American? It seriously deteriorates the feel of the course. If they'd just had been European, you know, where latin was spoken mostly, it would have made sense. Now it all feels out of tune :/ I absolutely love all the hard work put into this, learning latin for free AD 2020 is kickass, but Nova Eoboraci. Get the frak outta here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Feles11

Eboracum is a Roman city in Britannia. It is now called York. Novum Eboracum is New York. The form Novi Eboraci is locative case.

Libenter id tibi dico, o puer tam impatiens!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mab615805

Please tell me like you would tell a young child without much knowledge in grammatical constructions: How does one know that this means "in" New York?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alf-Sawman

I think there are some links missing from Rae.F's reply here, but the short version is this:

The "default" nominal name of New York (i.e. the nominative case) is Novum Eboracum (or Eboracum Novum, as the adjective is normally put after the noun).

When declined (as in declension, not as in being rejected... :-D ) into the lokativ case, the form is 'Novi Eboraci'. The locative case is generally used to describe a "static location", i.e. when you are at a given place, or you roam within an area such as in a city/country/room etc. (This "staticity" as opposed to move in a direction, into/onto something, e.g. move/travel into a room/city/country etc., which usually takes accusative (2nd declension as far as I remember).)

In many languages, certain cases (declensions) are lost/merged with others (e.g. dative is used for locative in German, locative and "prepositional" merges (mostly) in Russian...)

Finally, when using locative in Latin, you may omit the preposition (aka the word in in this sentence), because the locative case implies that something (the verb in the sentence) is taking place in/on the place put in locative.

Et voilà!

Hope this was clarifying!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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If you have any suggestions for links I could add to my quick-and-dirty beginner's guide, I'd be happy to take a look at them.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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Here is a plain-English overview of what the cases are and how they work:
Latin cases, in English

Here are the noun and adjective declension charts:
declensions 1-3
declensions 4&5

Adjectives must agree in gender, number, and case with the nouns they modify, but they have their own declensions. Sometimes you get lucky and the adjective just happens to follow the same declension as the noun, but that is not a guarantee.

For good measure, here are the verb conjugation charts:
1st Conjugation
2nd Conjugation
3rd Conjugation
3rd i-stem Conjugation
4th Conjugation


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dave737984

Definitely wanted to learn American city names when I came here to learn latin...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tuitui10

why would anyone make a latin sentence containing the word new york?? In which dimension does this makes sense?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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In the dimension where we're learning Latin in the 21st Century with no plans to time-travel back a few thousand years.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DecarbonatedOdes

Why is New York in the genitive case not the ablative case?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Wibke260819

Sorry, my initial answer was wrong. It is locative, like the "domi" example earlier.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Feles11

It isn’t; it is locative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LobsangC

Okay, now that we have established a precedent and some useful parameters, can anyone tell me what "eboracum" means -that would complete this inquiry quite nicely!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LobsangC

Okay, I have just found out. Eboracum was the Roman's largest town in northern Britain apparently meaning 'Yew' tree place, later etymology suggests uses concomitant with the words for 'ivy' and also 'ivory' -almost too interesting to be useful, but for what it's worth, from Wikipedia.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Edmund403301

Northern England. Not Britain.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kaet
  • 181

True, it's only about halfway up the island.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EricEwing5928

From Lewis and Short Lexicon via the Perseus Project: Eborācum , i, n., I.the capital of the Brigantes in Britain, now York, Eutr. 8, 19; Inscr. Orell. 190 al.

Two things here; yes this could be considered the Roman equivalent of York, hence Novum Eboracum for New York.

However, I'm a lot more concerned with the use of the genitive here to denote location. I'm no Cicero, but I don't think this is very good use of Latin inflection.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/1e7nx0WG

You refer to the genitive case being used to denote location. The form here is in fact the locative, not genitive, and its use is explained in the notes for this section. The locative ending for place names that are singular nouns of the first or second declension happen to be the same as those for the genitive case.

http://www.novaroma.org/nr/Locative gives further information about the locative case.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Basmaemam2

Someone please in simple words , what is the differance between " Novum Eborocum "and "Novi Eboraci" ??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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If you read the reply to the comment right above yours here, you will find the answer to your question.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Reine_K

So does this mean that "Novi" means new?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jes325689

Question. Maybe this has been answered already but I've noticed the adjective typically after the noun. We call it New York because we place it the other way around, but would latin say Eboraci Novi instead? Or is it meshed together because the two words are treated as a pair. And if that's the case, why translate at all, other names and cities are only mildly altered to fit the language cases. I feel like I'm missing something.

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