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"Ille me servat et ego illum servo."

Translation:He saves me and I save him.

August 27, 2019

76 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bettina68134

This is off topic, but I have to state that I love Duolingo because of the vivid, insightful, astonishing, illuminating and mostly polite discussions of its users. This is one of them!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/neijak1

The Latin forum is especially helpful.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mucccccc

Surely 'is me servat et ego eum servo' would make more sense? Using ille as a personal pronoun was a later innovation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Quidam_Homo

Why do you say it's a later innovation? There's no writer that doesn't routinely use "ille" to mean "he".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DuaneKinne

Is ea id, hic haec hoc, and ille illa illud, can all be used, they have different connotations but if that is not important to the writer it is ok to use any of them. And iste ista istud for people you are talking negatively about.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LatinWaif

Would you mind explaining the different connotations?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcus_Arbiter
  • is, ea, id : no particular connotation
  • hic, haec, hoc : this one (here), near to the speaker
  • iste, ista, istud : that one (there), a bit further - or that "bad" one (pejorative connotation)
  • ille, illa, illud : that one (over there), further - or that "great" one (laudative connotation)

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

We save each other. How could I say that in Latin?

Servamus invicem ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eva242549

Apparently there was no word for "each other". "Inter se amant" means "they love each other" but I don't know whether that construction is adaptable to the present statement. Still researching. Anyone know?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MagistraKate

What you suggested would work if you meant that we are saving one another in turns. If you mean "we save ourselves," you would use the reflexive pronoun: Servamus nos.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Yes, but if it's saving, but not in turn, but reciprocally? As the English "each other".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/farhoodkia

Hello, for me this is a good sentence for learning pronouns, I was wondering if the following is correct quoque:

"Ille illam servat et illa illum servat."

Edit: Not as an answer for this question, but as something that I can repeat to learn other pronouns.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrigidSh

What part of speech are "me" and "illum" in this sentence? What grammatical case is used?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/1e7nx0WG

Me and illum are both pronouns in this sentence, and are both in the accusative case. me is the accusative of ego. Illum is the accusative of ille.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rbahia

What does "save" (servat and servo) mean in the sentence? I usually think of "saving" as rescuing ("I saved her from an attack") and sometimes as preserving (when dealing with things, like "I saved money to buy a car"). I could not understand the meaning of "save" in this sentence; would it be "watch over"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jigglymind

How would one say "she saves me and i save her" instead?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/neijak1

Instead of the masculine ille, you'd use the feminine illa.

Illa* me servat et ego illam servo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarlosQI_

Why not "he looks after me and I look after him"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

You're mixing up two verbs. This is to save. See the other posts.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Abrao733245

Why is it not dative verb case? Why accusative? In german i guess this verb is "sparen" + dat case


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

There is no reason to expect it to be dative. We need a direct object, so it's accusative.

There are a handful of verbs that take a dative object when you'd expect an accusative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcus_Arbiter

No, in German, "sparen" is used with the accusative and this verb only means "to save" in the context of saving money! Otherwise, "servare" would be "retten" or here rather "achten" (auf + AKK.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Franz460815

On the other hand, the verb "ersparen" can be used with the dative, like "Es wird mir (dat.) arbeit (acc.) ersparen".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcus_Arbiter

You are right, but in your example, "mir" would be an equivalent of the dative of interest in Latin, in my opinion.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Yevaka-18yo

can it be "illum le servo"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

Le isn't a Latin word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kai247906

Sounds romantic


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcus_Arbiter

Yes, but it's rather "Rome antic" (antic Rome)! ;-)
The wordplay works better in French: romantique / Rome antique.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RachelBeck579198

What is the difference between ille and illum?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcus_Arbiter

The difference: "ille" is nominative, "illum" is accusative.
Here the declension:


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Qibli2000

I'm pretty sure that servo/servas/servat translates to serve, not save.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

No it doesn't. You're confusing servare and servire.

See my post above.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/neijak1

Nope.

servō, servāre: to save
serviō, servīre: to serve


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GuilesTheme

Doesn't servo mean to serve (i.e. like a servant?)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marcus_Arbiter

No. See the other commentars...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PatrickLi12

"servare" translates "to serve" or "to take care of something"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gudrun174155

Oh danke, alles klar. Was weiß ein Fremder? Da English schließlich für mich auch ebenso eine Fremdsprache ist, wie Latein, danke ich für diese Aufklärung!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/seybeyr

Isn’t it an error servo is more I serve that I save?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

No, I've explained above, servo does not mean serve.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PatrickDia465144

Well....... looks like im not the only one... with how the latin phase is set up im confused "He me saves and I him save" is wat it comes to im jus not sure


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scian4

That's a word-for-word translation; it's not correct English


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JacobdGM

Not "They save me and I save them"? If I were trying to talk about a person of unknown or unimportant gender, which latin pronouns should I use?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/norto

Last time I checked, Latin has no gender-neutral pronoun (or something like that). That idea doesn't exist in Latin. You must assume the gender of people you are referring to all the time. Some schools suggest the use of masculine words like ille or is for a group of mixed gender, following the logic of current Romance languages. But also, it's just a suggestion. Some also suggest to paraphrase the sentence in different way like passive structure to omit using pronoun at all.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ryan324467

Latin does indeed have neuter pronouns. Suum is the nominative neuter of the reflexive, and Id is the nominative neuter of the direct, which you mentioned. (Is is the masculine of Id) Pronouns don't have to refer to people, and the pronoun has to agree in gender, number, and case with the thing that it refers to. You could be talking about a monster, or maybe even an inanimate thing like silver. So "argentium suum" would be "the silver itself"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/norto

The original question by Jacob is about Latin equivalence to English gender-neutral pronoun "they" (sometimes called singular they).

I think you misunderstand the meaning of gender-neutral personal pronoun which is semantical and NOT always the same as grammatical neuter gender pronoun. Gender-neutral here is for human and it means "covering both male and female gender (of human)".

I don't think neuter pronoun id or illud should be used to refer to person as it serves the meaning of a thing not a person. Using id to refer to person seems very dehumanizing and inappropriate as the word itself is not ment to refer to person but rather 'that thing' or 'this thing'. Same analogy as the difference between quid (neuter = thing) and quis (mas/fem = person). Like you don't use it to refer to a person in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tibfulv

Being a speaker of a language with a gender-neutral singular pronoun, Norwegian, (den/denne) I can testify that the rise of the number of women involved in society did necessitate putting this pronoun to new and unusual uses, due to how rarely it had been used before. After all, earlier nearly all adult women were classified as wives, a known quantity. Whereas these days it's anybody's guess what the sex of the next professional you meet is. Naturally, you deal with that, but it does leave the problem of speaking accurately about people whom you only know are working for a specific place. So you use the neutral masculine/feminine pronoun, which previously was only used to vary expressions. We also use the neuter pronoun, (det/dette), which, counter to expectations, is in fact used for people, as it's tied to grammatical gender, not biological sex. Grammatical gender is arguably arbitrary, and not necessarily tied to sex. For instance, child is neuter in Norwegian, and car is masculine. So both pronouns are used for things. There has in fact been a lot of speculation as to what to do in those circumstances. And if we didn't have the option of combined masculine/feminine, we would likely have used the neuter. We might have made up a category to justify it, but instead we go with the gender of the professional title, or the gender of the business they're in. In real terms, though, it's more of an issue for academics than it is in real usage, as it still only comes up in edge cases. The second sex is known, you switch to specifics. Indeed the awkwardness of using den/denne in speech (it's mostly a formal phenomenon) generally leads to the knowledgable supplying the information necessary to switch.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MagistraHenry

Ille is masculine. Your question about unknown gender is a heavily debated one in Latin speaking circles.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

The idea of unknown gender is unknown in French. (at least, before the debate about the genders, and I don't say the neuter, the neuter does exist in French, but it's not the same thing.)

So I really think an unknown gender is a specificity of the English language (I don't say English language is the only one). And I think there's probably there a trend to anglicize the Latin language with English concepts.

When referring to an unknown gender in French, one would say "Cette personne" (this person), because it could be a male or a female. And the pronoun would be grammatically feminine "elle, la", if we use "personne", because of the feminine gender of the word "personne", but knowing that the real gender could be masculine or feminine.

There is a neutral pronoun in French "ça", but it's used for things. If you'd wanted to use it for a person, it would mean this person is not quite human, but a kind of monster, or an object.

If there's no explicit neutral (in the meaning of unknown) pronoun in Latin, it's really probably that it's the same thing in Latin. So I don't understand the need to bring foreign concepts, from other languages with other logics, to this language.
Languages are diversity, in the concepts.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RoPezGon420

I think it's an attempt to bring in the modern concept of gender neutrality. For example, until recently mainstream society thought many professions were only done by males. Using "they" instead of "he" or "she" is a recent attempt to make English gender-neutral.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

Gender neutral they is not new in English. It was used through the Medieval period.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ryan324467

Ille is a demonstrative masculine pronoun meaning "that". Given that it is masculine, we have to infer that it refers to a masculine person. In Latin masculine is the collective gender (And generally in Latin literature most active agents are men anyway), so when in doubt I would use that personally.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.C.M.H.

"They save me and I save them" → Illi/ii me servant et ego illos/eos servo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tuija556568

Servare = to save? What an odd translation! Besides the pronunciation of the readers is terrible. As I know, ae and oe are pronounced as [e:]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

No, it's not an odd translation, it's a correct translation. Please read the other posts before posting. We've discussed this.

The pronunciation is correct. This is the Classical pronunciation, where ae and oe are not the same as e.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Harald917684

According to my dictionary this should be serve, not save.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MetalLover

I think (as someone stated above) there is a difference between "servo" and "servio"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zabrunga

Why servo is translated as save? Shouldnt it be serve?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

Servare - to save

Servire - to serve


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Franz460815

I can't but admire your patience, as you keep responding questions of people who didn't read your previous posts...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

I'm a teacher. My entire day is repeating myself to students who don't listen :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JackoQ

I laughed out loud :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/egmor

I was trying to conjugate these verbs: Servare - servo Servire - sirvo?? If so, it would be the same as my native Portuguese.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

No, sorry. The conjugations are not the same as Portuguese.

Servio

Servis

Servit

Servimus

Servitis

Serviunt


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ARCANA-MVSA

The verb servare means to save. It gives us such words as conservation, preservation, to preserve, to conserve. You're thinking of servire, which means to serve. It's a completely different word. :)

Double check on William Whitaker's Words to make sure: http://archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wordz.pl?english=serve

http://archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wordz.pl?keyword=servare

Volgav vitsenanieff nivya kevach varatsach.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/charly396845

That female speaker makes me crazy: Servat pronounced like serwuat and Servo like serwuo...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

The v is pronounced like a W. It's the Classical pronunciation.

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