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  5. "Livia se male habet."

"Livia se male habet."

Translation:Livia feels poorly.

August 27, 2019

80 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ErnestoB-

"Livia feels bad" sounds better.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elin.7-1

Livia feels poorly is a perfectly acceptable in UK English - it means she feel unwell. Livia feels bad, by contrast, is an emotional description, e.g. she feels bad about what she did/said...it wouldn't be used to comment on her health


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scipio_V

I have to completely disagree. Poorly is an adverb, the meaning of 'Livia feels poorly' is 'Livia is bad at the act of feeling' while the intent of the sentence is to convey that her state of being/health/mood is bad. Further, I have never heard anyone use this phrase in either US or UK English. Livia feels bad/unwell/poor are all grammatically correct. The current phrase sounds poorly. It is not phrased goodly. Is my meaning clearly?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chaander

You're thinking about it incorrectly. The phrasing is fine because that's the intended structure of the TARGET language. In English, these are mostly interchangeable, but that's because in a descriptivist language like English people often don't use adverbs correctly. Consider your use of "goodly": that sentence SHOULD be "It is not phrased well" where "well" is the correct adjective. I get the point you were trying to make, but goodly isn't the adverbial form of good.

Moreover, the English does not matter so much as that you understand that in LATIN, this is how you use this type of phrase. That way, when you apply it to other phrases, you can use the correct form of the word, as it is intended in Latin.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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I have a degree in linguistics and there is no such thing as a descriptive or prescriptive language. Those terms apply to how people approach the discussion/study/philosophy of language.

Prescriptivists/grammarians/snooty teachers will treat the standard dialect as though it is inherently superior and the only correct way to speak. They will teach the rules as though they are decrees handed down from on high, like "Thou shalt not eat fish on Friday."

Descriptivists/linguists/people who study languages know that languages have never been monolithic things. There is no such thing as not a dialect, and non-standard dialects are not the standard (prestige) dialect with errors. The rules of any given dialect are closer to laws of nature. Linguists analyze how native speakers talk and derive the rules from that, like "An object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force."

Usually, "well" is an adverb, but it is an adjective in the context of health and well-being. Similarly, in some dialects, "poorly" can be an adjective in the context of health and well-being.

In the other direction, some words that look like adjectives can actually be adverbs: flat adverbs.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I agree with a part, but it seems a bit caricatural about "prescriptivists", sometimes prescription vs usage is good.

When we use a dictionary to check the right use, it's a prescription. If there hadn't prescription, we would just check that is the usage the more common, and stick to it, because it's the usage, a common usage, even if it's grammatically incorrect. Usage is Urban dictionary dictionary, Prescription is Oxford dictionary.

So, a balance needs to be found between prescription and usage.
It's not because many people make a mistake, that it makes it proper linguistically. The languages evolve, but their evolution also needs to be slow down. (I don't talk about the debate in the first post, just saying that prescription is not always bad or we should burn all our dictionaries and grammar rules, and just observe how the language is spoken in the streets or on the internet forums)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chris891318

There is no way you are fun at parties.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BertMcColl

"Male" IS an adverb, the adverbial form of the adjective malus. Translating an adverb with an adverb is more accurate. Regarding English grammar, a verb, in this case "feels", is modified by and adverb not an adjective. You should really think about getting a book and learning some grammar!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I'm not an expert, but I don't think we should always translate an adverb with an adverb. It makes no sense when we see that adjectives are often used as adverbs, and vice versa, in Latin and English. So, sticking to the grammatical nature of the words, rather than the general meaning seems impossible to me. How do you do when the adjective is used like an adverb in Latin, and it's not the case in English (or whatever other configuration)? Do you translate it word by word like in Google translate?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vaporeonex999

Well, who knew there was so much to say about this!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scipio_V

"Feels" is modified by an adverb. Very good, Bert. Gold star for you. The problem, as I said in my post (which you might want to re-read and try harder to comprehend) is that Livia's ability to feel is not what is in question. Livia herself, a noun, is in a negative state of being. Nouns are modified by adjectives. Congratulations on figuring out that "male" is an adverb in Latin. I now encourage you to ask yourself if English grammar and Latin grammar are the same. The English sentence lacks the explicit reflexivity of the Latin. "You understood me poor." Wrong. It's "you understood me poorly", because your understanding of my comment was the problem, not you. On the other hand, "Bert seems pompously." Wrong. Bert himself, a noun, is the possessor of the bad attitude, not the innocent verb "seems". "Bert seems pompous." Now that sounds much more nicely... Ahem... NICE to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nick_Pr

It's the inverse of "Livia feels well", which is the adverb well. While your sentence could be a possible meaning, historical and currently an adverb with "feel" is common to express state.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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In the context of health and wellness, "well" is an adjective. Stative verbs always take adjectives because the subject is being described, not the verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I wonder if "to feel" is really stative when talking about the health.

It's stative when it talks about feelings, emotions, ideas (I feel that: I believe that), or emotional states.

The verb feel in the meaning of ‘feel ill’ is not stative. We say ‘I’m feeling ill’ or ‘I feel ill’.

When ‘feel’ means ‘believe’, however, it is stative: ‘I feel it’s the right thing to do’, not ‘I’m feeling’.

https://speakspeak.com/grammar-articles/what-are-stative-verbs-and-why-do-learners-need-to-understand-them

Opinion confirmed here:

Don feels that the boss’s new plans are not conducive to the company’s progress. [ feels (Present Simple form of feel) as stative verb meaning to hold an opinion]

He is not feeling so good today. [ is not feeling (Present Progressive form of feel) as dynamic verb meaning physical bodily sensation]

https://sites.google.com/site/englishgrammarguide/Home/english-verbs--part-2----more-terms

The progressive form in -ing, would be impossible for a static use (I'm feeling good/well), according to these sites.

But Merriamster say that to feel, for health, is "a linking verb" so it's included in the "stative verbs". I cannot find an example of "feeling" used for health, considered as a stative verb though, they always give other uses for feels)

It seems ambiguous, as "feel good" and "feel well" don't have the same meaning.

"Feeling well" refers to feeling healthy, not being sick, etc. If someone asks "How are you feeling?", they are generally inquiring about your health, so it's appropriate to answer this way.

"Feeling good": a general state of mind, so "I'm feeling good" can refer to someone feeling happy, proud, etc. if someone says "How are you?" and you want to describe a general good mood, you can say "I'm feeling good"

Stackechange again:

Using poorly as an adjective means "unwell" or "somewhat ill," and you can certainly say "I feel poorly" to mean the same thing as "I feel ill."

Oxford says:

Confusion in the use of bad versus badly usually has to do with verbs called copulas, such as feel or seem. Thus, standard usage calls for I feel bad, not I feel badly. As a precise speaker or writer would explain, I feel badly means "I do not have a good sense of touch."

Note: I feel poorly is considered as wrong by Oxford, but its colloquial use exists:

In colloquial English English, as opposed to American English, "I feel poorly" means "I feel ill." It is connected exclusively to one's health. If, for example, it were used to express poor tactile sense it would have some qualifying word or phrase; eg. "I feel things very poorly with my fingers."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bpoqd

Poorly is an adjective in UK English that means someone feels unwell. "I feel poorly" "You look a bit poorly today". I didn't write the rules, but I can guarantee you as a native that that's how it's used.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scipio_V

Since this was posted over a month ago and a minor war ensued over it spamming me with notifications, I wanted to come back and comment a follow up.

I did check around after writing my initial comment and I acknowledge now that poorly is used as an adjective in some dialects in the UK. Also, to be clear, I had no issue understanding the meaning when I read it. I don't think anyone did. Further, I did not and do not want to start name dropping linguistic jargon on the point to try to shut down everyone else.

The primary issue is that the suffix -ly turns nouns into adjectives and adjectives into adverbs. Friend is a noun. Friendly is an adjective. Quick is an adjective. Quickly is an adverb. This is a pattern that exists with unusual consistency in English. In fact, it's so consistent that the suffix gets a page in some dictionaries saying precisely that:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/-ly

Poor is an adjective, so following standard English, appending the suffix -ly at the end would imply that it's an adverb. Poorly used as a Britishism as in the above sentence bluntly breaks this consistent pattern. That's why so many people read it and feel that it sounds incorrect even if they can't tell why. It's because it violates a pattern that is very consistent in English aside from that one word in that one dialect. Maybe it slowly became standard to use it that way in some regions of the UK just like "y'all" is slowly becoming normal in some regions even outside of the Southern US.

I don't speak the same way that I write. But if I were to write an educational course, I'd try writing it in the most standardized language variant possible. That excludes both obvious slang like Southern US "ain't" or British "innit" AND regional colloquialisms like "poorly" which clearly violate linguistic patterns that hold in virtually every other case in most other dialects.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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-ly often turns an adjective into an adverb. But not always.

Don't forget "costly", as in "Forgetting to lock his front door was a costly mistake that led to a burglar stealing his prized possessions."

Or "daily", as in "Studying on Duolingo is a daily event for me."

And let's not forget Dorothy's good friend the Cowardly Lion.

https://polyglotclub.com/wiki/Language/English/Grammar/Adjectives-ending-in-ly

It's not as "unusually consistent" as you think. The adjectival use of "poorly", while non-standard, has clear precedent within standard English and should not be so quickly written off.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kaet
  • 187

You are making Scipio_V's point. "Cost", "day" and "coward" are nouns, so adding "-ly" makes them adjectives, as they are in your example sentences.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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kaet

"Dead" is a noun?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elin.7-1

As a native English person who has lived in many parts of the country, and learnt their dialects, and now lives in Wales and has learnt their English dialect as well as the Welsh language, I can assure you that "I feel poorly today" is understood all over the UK as meaning "I feel unwell".

If one used instead "I feel unwell", one would be looked at slightly oddly and thought a bit snobbish! More usual would be "I don't feel well", which wouldn't work as a translation here as it changes the emphasis and the Latin is using "male" rather "non est".

Perhaps we could simply agree that "I feel poorly" is a standard British English idiom :o)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JeanneMPN

And it is used in the same manner in some areas of the U.S.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertDaws668685

Poorly is used to mean unwell in British English. It is used all the time in the area I live.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OS_59554

in australia, we say 'sick' coz poorly sounds bad


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elin.7-1

And in British English, "sick" very specifically refers to vomiting, or the wish to vomit. So "I feel sick" tells the listener to get a bucket/bowl or give directions to the toilet!!

The delights of a common language diverging :o)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Windrammer

Yes, but in order to learn the nuances of a language we have to sometimes let the funky sounding translations slide. Generally you have to balance literacy and contextuality with eachother in order to get the best grasp of a language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CameronCoo286637

In standard contemporary English, "bad" is the best option


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tamashi88

If it makes you feel better, Duo accepted 'Livia feels unwell' because in the context of tge sentence bene and male are opposites well/unwell


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OS_59554

nah sick works better too


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dominic-John

Technically, using "bad" here is actually incorrect, even though people use it all the time. It's the same as people saying "I don't feel good" or "I feel good"; even though people say it all the time, it's still incorrect. "Poorly" is a much better word choice here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Actually, I think "feel" in this context is equivalent to "is" or "seems;" in other words, it's a linking verb, and so using an adjective with it is correct. "Livia feels/is/seems bad."

In this sentence, we're not discussing how well she FEELS something else, for which we'd want an adverb (like "poorly"): "She feels bad / poorly" does not, in other words, mean that she is (for example) feeling (or handling) an animal badly.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kaet
  • 187

That depends on your dialect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AaronD.2

Līvia sē male habet.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/araj04_plyglt

What's the function of "se"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Since "habet" is a transitive verb ( = needs a direct object), the accusative "sē" is serving as that object; and, since it's reflexive, it indicates that the same person, "Livia," is both the subject and the object of the verb.

"Mē male habeō" would mean "I'm not doing well," and "Tē male habēs" would mean "You're not doing well," and so forth.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

I would never say "Livia feels poorly," although yes I understand what it's supposed to mean! "Livia is not well" would be more idiomatic, to me, as the opposite of Livia se bene habet, "Livia feels well" / "Livia is doing fine."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2617

"Livia feels unwell" is accepted, and I think it also accepts "Livia feels sick." I believe they are adding "Livia feels ill."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Thank you for the information!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Anna_Conisbee

would Livia male habet work? Why / Why not?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnulusLanguage

It wouldn't - the reflexive pronoun 'se' is necessary. (like in French e.g. se lever)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clbutler3

Would you mind explaining why the reflexive pronoun is necessary here? I don't want to miss any nuances.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arnold1914

''Livia feels bad'' , but in the sense of sickness.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DieVdU

Livia feels poorly is very acceptable in England to explain that Livia feels unwell, BUT it is usually used when speaking to or about children. 'Are you feeling poorly?' If you said this to an adult, it would sound rather condescending or sarcastic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/benwaggoner

Why is "unwell" accepted, but "sick"is not? "Livia feels unwell" and "Livia feels sick" convey the same meaning. 2020may02


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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If you typed "Livia feels sick" and it marked you wrong, double-check for typos or extra spaces, then flag it and report "My answer should be accepted."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Duodpn1

"Livia does poorly" is at least as good in my dialect, I think, (to signal that she feels unwell or feels bad) though "poorly" for how someone feels isn't great with either verb. A translation that isn't so dialect specific might be better.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/roman2095

"livia is not well" is also accepted


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Isn't "to do poorly" also a mean to say that you are not good at something?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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No, that would be "to do something poorly".

I swim poorly = I am bad at swimming.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JackCarnie1

I wrote 'Livia is doing badly' is this not acceptable? Somehow it feels right to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tammy8291

Why is it phrase as "se male habet" instead of "male se habet" ... please can someone help


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Leandro_lhi

Are "se male havet" and "male se habet" the same?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Milakitten

Havet wouldn't be correct, but you should be able to switch the words in this case. I believe?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Yes, se male habet, and male se habet, makes sense.


[deactivated user]

    Is se like the Spanish se (haberse) or a pronoun on its own?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThemistoclesL

    It is the accusative form of the personal pronoun. It can be used in various ways. In this case it affects the meaning just as se in haberse, but in Latin it is never considered to be a part of the actual verb. It's more of an extra that means the action is directed to the subject.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

    It's more like in French, because Spanish concatenate the verb and the reflexive particle.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BertMcColl

    I have found several errors today. The text presented was "Livia he male has" NOT "Livia se male habet".


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    • 2617

    Did you flag it and report it?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

    Hello Bert. Where did you see "Livia he male has"?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BertMcColl

    It was one of the practice sentences on Duolingo. I'm sure it was an error with words or letters getting scrambled.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RichardIna2

    "Livia feels poorly" implies that she has trouble feeling. "Livia feels bad" makes more since.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

    However, there do seem to be English-speaking populations among whom it's normal to say "Livia feels poorly," meaning "Livia feels bad."

    Or so I observe from reading the comments on this page!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    There are dialects of British English where "poorly" is used as an adjective in the context of health and wellness, just as "well" is used as an adjective in the same context. It makes just as much sense.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlatheaAnd

    British English speaker here. I'd say poorly, and I've always thought it was standard English. If it's dialect, which dialects exactly?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    The standard dialect is still a dialect. There is nothing special about it, linguistically speaking.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlatheaAnd

    You wrote that "There are dialects of British English where "poorly" is used as an adjective". I understood this to mean regional dialects. Now you are saying that standard British English is a dialect, which is fair enough. But it doesn't explain which "dialects of British English" you were referring to initially. All British English, or only some forms of it?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    • 2617

    I don't know, which is why I tried to keep it vague.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jim878622

    How would this translation directly? Livia has a?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

    Not exactly.

    "What" she "has" = the direct object = , "herself."

    The word male is an adverb, "badly."

    "Livia holds herself badly" = Livia isn't doing well.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SivaramNaiduK

    Should es be necessary? Shouldn't it be Livia male habet.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    No, it needs to be reflexive. "Habere" literally means "to have/hold/keep" and so it needs to be "Livia se male habet" because it's literally "Livia holds herself well."


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vsandl

    What's with these invisible accents I'm always being picked up on? Even if there is an accent in Latin (there weren't in the exams I took) we are translating into English and there's no accent Livia there!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/thecrazypainter

    when I think the sentence is perfectly fine, and then I look at the comments


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RevellaLeif

    Wow Im going to have a PhD in Linguistics in no time, thanks, ladies, gents ☺


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TheLandingEagle

    Kudos to the new voice!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Corrado421881

    Can you say "Livia male habet"?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

    I don't think so, no.

    As far as I know, the idiom is "(subject) sē habēre", meaning "(the subject) keeps itself in a certain condition" (or simply "IS in a certain condition"), with the condition specified by the adverb (male, "badly, poorly," etc., as here).

    The direct object in the accusative case (here, the 3rd person reflexive pronoun ) is necessary. If Livia speaks to us, she might say "Mē male habeō" (with the 1st person reflexive pronoun in the accusative case).

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