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  5. "Hoc crustulum velim."

"Hoc crustulum velim."

Translation:I would like this cookie.

August 28, 2019

54 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Richlogos

Incredibly, the word lives on as «crostolo/crostoli» in Venice, a sweet pastry known as "angel wings" in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

In French, we call it "bugnes". French Alps have a culture very close from Northern Italy, and we share some recipes, like polenta (polente) and more...

Crostoli are a traditional dish for Carnaval. I don't know if there's some difference between the Italian crostoli and the French bugnes. crostoli Crostoli

bugnes

Bugnes -a kind of fried "beignets".
They have a shape slightly different from angel's wings.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zia177448

This is the word my school Latin course lacked most! ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

I bet the Romans made really good biscotti with honey, dates, raisins, and nuts!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

I spent some time researching crustula but there seemed to be many different opinions out there regarding what they were like at the height of the Roman empire. In another DL post, someone suggested they were not sweet, but more like a plain scone or small American biscuit. On the web, a few articles seemed to concord that they were small cookies made with unleavened flour, water or wine, olive oil, and additions such as raisins and nuts. One article mentioned a sort of baking sheet with spherical indentations in it that was found in the Pompeii ruins. If anyone has some scholarly references please list them here!

By the way, I opened this page just to let you know that I had put "I would like this cracker," and it was accepted. Thanks DL team!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MagistraKate

Most Roman food was, indeed, far less sweet that our current offerings since they did not have cane sugar and most items were sweetened with honey which gives a decidedly different flavor. According to Rich's A Dictionary of Roman and Greek Antiquities, a crustulum (a diminutive of crustum) was "any small piece of pastry or cake...especially given to children" (see Horace Sat. I.1.25).

I found an example of one of the crustulum moulds you were mentioning, although this one is from Eastern Europe and has figural iconography: https://www.academia.edu/21831317/Ceramic_crustulum_with_the_representation_of_Nemesis-Diana_from_Viminatium_A_contribution_to_the_cult_of_goddess_nemesis_in_roman_provinces_of_Central_Balkans.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bellatora

I appreciate all of the crustula information you guys are sharing. Very interesting!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeanMeaneyPL

I get back to crusto, krusto in Proto Italic (hardened) and Proto Indo European (crushed, pounded) which gives us roots both for crustulum (small cookie, biscuit or pie) , from crustum (pie) and for crusta (crust), a word that is still very much alive in English, whether as the outer shell on our bread or of the Earth. Interesting how the cr- sound persists in cracker, crater, crepitation and crinkle, to name but a few.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sa967St

I'm pleasantly surprised by the early occurrence of hoc. It looks like this course isn't going to suddenly throw the entire hic, haec, hoc table at us.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nick_Pr

I've had nightmares about that table.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nick_Pr

"crustulum" sounds nasty compared to "cookie." Kind of like British "biscuit." (No offense, friends across the pond.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SidAlex712

No offence taken sir, but we do also say 'cookie' when referring to the round type of biscuit with chocolate chips/raisins in them :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nick_Pr

Well I'm glad to hear that!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MagistraKate

Volo, not the subjunctive, please.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

Volo - I want

Velim - I would like


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Septimus734191

I tried "This is the cookie I want" but it was rejected. How would I say that in Latin?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Richlogos

«hoc est crustulum quod volo» (or «velim» if you want to say "I would like") should be ok, if the situation calls for it :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nigel776413

In English the difference between this cookie and that cookie would be the relative distances of cookies; how does this translate in Latin?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

hoc crustulum is THIS one, near me; illud crustulum is THAT one, further away.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andres.Campe

Is "velim" first person singular? I've thought it was plural, as far as I got, many singular ended in vowel, mostly o... Are there different kind of verb ending patterns, or is it irregular or not indicative or what?

Perhaps I've engaged in too many language courses, but I'm really interested in this one. I hope one day it will be available for romance languages as well


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MagistraKate

Yes, velim is first person singular. The -m ending is an alternative for -o in some tenses and moods. In this case it is and irregular present subjunctive which requires the -m.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andres.Campe

Ok, thank you very much I think i got this exercise in a Plurals unit, so i though it could be plural, at first. Then as i went on i got it that EGO VELIM... then what's the plural first person? NOS V...?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

nōs velīmus is the subjunctive; nōs volumus is the indicative (and, strictly speaking, subject pronoun "nōs" is not needed).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/friskefox

What does "irregular present subjunctive" mean? I am having a hard time understanding why the verb ends in -m instead of -o, even after reading all the discussion.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

It turns out that an alternative 1st person singular (or "I" form) verb ending, to the usual -ō (as in volō), is -m (as in velim).

The verb "to be" has the ending -m: sum, I am; also possum, I am able. (these are present indicatives parallel to verbs you've learned like vīsitō, "I visit".)

I don't know if Duolingo will be teaching any of the verb tenses other than the present; some of these also use the letter -m for the "I" form.

The subjunctive mood uses the -m ending exclusively for 1st person singular forms.

The verb "to want" (volō) is a somewhat irregular verb, and so its present subjunctive follows a less-common pattern (using the vowel "i") that a few verbs have: "to be" has sim, sīs ,sit, etc; "to prefer" has mālim, mālīs, mālit, etc; "to refuse, not want" has nōlim, nōlīs, nōlit, etc.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/STRADS1551

Can "hoc" also mean "that"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

There's a different word for "that": ille, illa, illud. So, "Illud crustulum volo" would be, "I want that cookie."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/STRADS1551

Thanks for clarifying. I presume "ille, illa, & illud" are masc, fem, & neut. forms of "that".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Yes, you're right: the nominative singular forms, masc, fem, and neuter, of the demonstrative pronoun/adjective "that" are ille, illa, illud.

And the demonstrative "this" is listed by its 3 nomin. sing. forms, hic, haec, hoc.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SteveSwart1

This sentence is going to come in very handy when I visit the bakery this morning.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alexroseajr

americans need to respect the old ways and call it a biscuit like the latin and italian roots. "cookie" is some dutch americanism


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danielconcasco

Let's try this again.

You need to respect others and not try to dictate the way a whole country speaks.

https://www.duolingo.com/guidelines

"Embrace and share regional language differences A language can have many words, accents and ways to say the same thing. We think that’s one of the wonders of languages. Approach these conversations with an open mind and attitude."

"Help and support across all skill levels We are all in this together. Learning a language is hard and takes a lot of courage and dedication. If someone uses incorrect grammar or has a question you think has an obvious answer, kindly and calmly help them out. Heckling and being straight up mean doesn’t help anyone learn. Can’t say it nicely? Don’t weigh in."

and

"Always be Respectful We come together from across the world at varying language levels with the same goal in mind - to learn. Curiosity, questioning, and cultural understanding are something we celebrate. Be respectful of others and where they’re coming from."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

Alexrose, a few observations:

  1. Your tone is insulting, see Daniel's reaction and the multiple downvotes. Please respect the forum guidelines.

  2. Your knowledge of etymology is misinformed. "Biscuit" and the Italian "biscotto" come from Old French. See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/biscuit. The Latin word is "crustulum," as you might remember since you are still on this page.

  3. Since you like to be critical, it might be wise to use capital letters where needed. From your entry we may conclude that you are not very... (fill in the blank yourself).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I don't think the Italian biscotto comes from the French, as it makes sense in Italian (cooked twice, cotto meaning cooked), but the English biscuit is from the French, that's obvious, and it also means cooked twice in French.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

So you don't trust Wiktionary, Perce? Did you click on the link I provided?

If you have a more reliable source, cite it! "I don't think" is not very persuasive!

Italian: Etymology -- Borrowed from French biscuit. Doublet of biscotto.

Noun: biscuit m (invariable); wafer


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John481518

I use Wikipedia and Wiktionary a lot. And I don't trust them. They're just jumping off points. However, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscotti "originates from the medieval Latin word biscoctus". As well, https://www.etymonline.com/word/biscotti "from Medieval Latin biscoctum, literally "twice-baked," from Latin (panis) bis coctus "(bread) twice-baked"." These are by no means definitive sources, but it makes sense to me. So I will support Perce, I don't think that the Italian biscotto comes from the French.

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