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  5. "Ego salutationem facio."

"Ego salutationem facio."

Translation:I visit the patron.

August 28, 2019

63 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SenorDustin

What does this mean?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Philippus_Nerius

Wiktionary says that besides meaning "greetings" or "salutations," the Latin "salutatio" can also signify a ceremonial visit. So perhaps when visiting one's patron there was much pomp and circumstance.

Nonetheless it seems strange to me that he necessarily be one's patron... but life was also quite different in Roman times!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

In this case, I make a ceremonial visit would be much better !

As I guess the patron would not the only one to receive that, (there's no "patron" in the Latin sentence). It could be respect for other people, greeting respectfully the patron in the morning is only one of the meaning for this.

EDIT: I changed partially my mind: it seems that the problem is about the meaning of "patron" in English, it doesn't fit here. If we use "patron" in English, we must remember it's not the English word that is used, but the Latin word. (So using "patron" is very good if we mean the Roman patron in the English sentence, but it creates confusion with the English word meaning!)

The meanings I've found, all from Wikipedia:

"Tablinum: Between the atrium and the peristyle was the tablinum, an office of sorts for the dominus, who would receive his clients for the morning salutatio. "

Here, the clients pay a ceremonial visit, in the morning, to the dominus (here the dominus, master of the house, is the patron)

"Access to the emperor by others might be gained at the daily reception (salutatio)"

Same thing, they greet the Emperor (here, the patron), in a daily reception (probably in the morning)

"Patronage was a cornerstone of Roman politics, business and social relationships. A good patron offered advancement, security, honour, wealth, government contracts and other business opportunities to his client, who might be further down in the social or economic scale, or more rarely, his equal or superior. A good client canvassed political support for his patron, or his patron's nominee; he advanced his patron's interests using his own business, family and personal connections. Freedmen with an aptitude for business could become extremely wealthy; but to negotiate citizenship for themselves, or more likely their sons, they must find a patron prepared to commend them. Clients seeking patronage had to attend the patron's early-morning formal salutatio ("greeting session"), held in the semi-public, grand reception room (atrium) of his family house (domus). Citizen-clients were expected to wear the toga appropriate to their status, and to wear it correctly and smartly or risk affront to their host.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mujilen

Salutationem facere simply means to go and greet someone, not necessarily a patron. I think the translation is too restrictive.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Yes; since there's no context for any of these sentences, one is left to imagine what it could be.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JulesPatouche

In the Roman Republic, there existed such a system* where a poor man (called «cliens, ntis») would visit and salute a very rich person (called «patronus, i» in latin), which would, every morning, satisfy his clients, ensuring them his protection/benectiom/whatever, or even giving them some momey, and, in exange, the clientes would promise to him fidelity, and (most importantly) their vote. That created a «healthy» relation and some kind of peace in the Republic, which is called «fides, ei»

*I think the «system» is called patrocinium, ii, but really I'm not sure about that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Moopish

A few meanings can be found at Wiktionary for patron: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/patron#English


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I think the Roman meanings are:
Meaning 1 / "An influential, wealthy person who supported an artist, craftsman, a scholar or a noble."

And, of course:
Meaning 2/ " A protector of a dependent, especially a master who had freed a slave but still retained some paternal rights."

But not "A regular customer, as of a certain store or restaurant" (to patronize), as it's totally the opposite. (Or the other meaning, like the saint.)

Meaning 3/ The meaning "boss", in a shop, owner/seller, as opposed with "customers/clients" is missing in the wiktionary, it's given in the Gaffiot.

"Patron" is from pater + "on". It has a protective meaning, a guardian. In French, and probably old French, patron has really a meaning of the one who dictate things.

Solution: They could improve this sentence by mentioning clearly the patron, so no confusion. Anyway, this sentence has a context, and the sentence that is right before is "I visited my patron" and after "Ego salutationem facis", not "Salutationem facis" said alone, but in a narrative story.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jcarty123

Literally, "I make a salutation".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

[salūtātiōnem is singular: "a formal act of greeting the patron." The plural would be salūtātiōnēs .]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jcarty123

D'oh! Thanks, and I changed my comment.

My brain was being influenced by the English phrase, "Greetings and salutations!"

I suspect that the entire concept of saluting someone ties in with this. English "salute" is when you acknowledge someone's rank, Italian "salute" is when you wish them health, and Spanish "salute" is another way to say hola, hello. All were 3 intended, I'm sure, when a Roman client went to kiss his patron's rear end.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SGuthrie0

This must be a Latin idiom. Idioms aren't translated literally.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/knittinglizards

This is a confusingly loose translation... A salutatio is a specific sort of morning visit that clients made at their patron's home, so ultimately it does mean visiting a patron, but that context isnt apparent from the given answer.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MiloBem

Yeah, it's a bit like a daily stand up business meeting where the manager checks up on his subordinates and assigns tasks. Very specific sentence most people don't really need to know


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I don't know if the Roman patron did assign tasks, or if it was only a respectful visit? Could it be a bit friendly or only very formal? I guess that if the patron is the Emperor, it was very very formal. But were all the subordinates of the Emperor were allowed to visit him? Like a very low class man visiting the Emperor? Probably, it was only reserved to immediate inferior subordinates?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RyanKaufman

A literal translation would be "I make a salutation." The patron part must be implied. There seems to be some cultural distance, but apparently a salutatio could be a specific thing for a Latin speaker.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elin.7-1

The alternative answer given, which matched the tiles, was I visit my patron. Is the 'my' always implicit when I talk about a patron and don't specify it's someone else's patron?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elin.7-1

I just [2019-09-13, two weeks after my comment above] typed I make a visit to my patron and was marked incorrect. Translating the facio in this sentence as make seems analagous to me as the iter facio being I make a journey / I travel, where make a journey is the prefered translation.

Also the correct solution was given as I visit the patron. Which is correct?

So I make a visit to my patron should be as acceptable as I visit my patron

Reported.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Yes, it's implied, as one always visit their own patron, not the patron of someone's else.

And it makes even more sense when we know that the possessive are often implied in Latin (as we saw in some other sentences)

So, definitively, "I visit my patron/I pay a visit to my patron" should be accepted. (and "pay a visit", in this context, better than simply "to visit", in my opinion)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KTo228

How about "I pay my daily respects to my patron."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Excellent suggestion!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrendanDoh8

Where did that patron come from?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

It's from the act of "salutation", please, read the other comments.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tom0153

Well, I learned a lot about the culture of Roman patronage in reading the comments, but frankly, out of the word choices given, the best I could come up with is "I visit." Now, it is literally "I make a salutation." I learned about that process reading here. But not by attempting the translation. I'll report it, only to suggest you remove introducing such knowlege of culture at this point without expanding on the process of making a morning visit to your patron.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

A better way to introduce it, would be to make a sentence like "The client visit his patron in the morning with deference.", or something like that, so we could translate the "visit" with "salutatio", in this context, while still including the rest (in the morning...)

I would love to see self-explanatory sentences in this course.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cherylkuchta

To me this translates as "I make a ceremonial visit," not "I visit the patron."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JimWiest

I tried "I am making a ceremonial visit," and "I am making a salutation." Both were marked as wrong. In the "tips" section "salutatio" is defined as "salutation or ceremonial visit." "Patron" is defined as "patron." The cultural context discussed in the above posts is very interesting, but the point is the sentence did not say "patron." It said "salutationem."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/david_smith_ii

I think this one belongs in the course on classical Roman culture, not Latin language. I understand that we need some culture to understand the language, but this is pretty esoteric. "I make a ceremonial visit" should be accepted as it's a literal translation, it's good English, and it doesn't conflict with the cultural meaning.

(And when you consider sentences like "Femina uxorem habet", I doubt we're sticking very closely to classical Roman culture.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeanMeaneyPL

A breakfast networking meeting at the public office of a wealthy sponsor? You scratch my back?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mr.Leovy

Literally, "I make a salutation." A salutatio is defined as "a greeting, salutation." Since Duolingo has decided that facere salutationem involves a patron, the translation "I greet the patron" should be accepted in addition to "I visit the patron."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

I wrote, "I greet my patron" (in the ceremonial visit of the morning). Not accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KarenMulle20

Salutationem is accusative of the word for greeting. Patronus is a patron


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rebeccamtb

I think it might be helpful to have a short explanation of the patron/client system in the lesson tips, as some cultural background? I remember it vaguely from Latin lessons in school but if I were coming to the language fresh I think I would be quite confused.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BeepBeepJon

"I visit my patron" isn't the obvious translation of this sentence and I was yet another confused person. I agree that a ceremonial visit to one's patron is an interesting facet of Roman culture but since we're learning the language and that context isn't immediately available, something needs to be changed here to make this more accessible for learners.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

I agree; especially since the noun salūtātiō is not being used in other expressions that could be contrasted with this, nor is faciō being used in another idiom (to parallel this one).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nevetsjy

This translation is either nonsensical or lacking a good deal of context.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Yes--"Patronum visito" would seem to convey the same info. as "Salutationem facio" (I make the formal visit to my patron).

Visito + a person at least makes sense, in Latin. (For all that "visiting" of places, like forums and stores and roads, I think Duolingo probably wants to use viso, visere, the frequentative of video, videre. There are plenty of attestations of visere + places = go to see, look upon, view.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I disagree, it doesn't convey the same info, but only a part, if it was the case, the Latin authors would have used "Salutatio" and "Patronem visito" indifferently. It is not the case. "Patronem visito" can't be found in Latin literature, or it's so rare that it can't be found in PHI or Google.
So, it's absolutely not an equivalence.

As a general rule, when there's an idiomatic expression, you cannot replace it with (a part of) its definition. It doesn't work.

We translate it as "visit", but I imagine a Roman saying "no, no, I don't visit him, I make a salutatio".

Like "I have a meeting/an appointment with my boss", if someone didn't have "appointment" in their language, you could use maybe something as "I visit my boss to talk about business". It's a kind of circumlocution, let's imagine it's the best you could find. (but still an approximation)
But you would say no, I don't visit him, I have an appointment.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

(OK. But let's call him patronum when accusative--2nd decl. noun.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MatthewEpp5

LOL What does this even mean? We need a definition of "patron" in Latin. I keep thinking of "patron saint".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Please, read the comments on this page, everything is explained.

As a rule, always start by reading the previous comments, answers and questions, before commenting.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NinjaDuckie

Agreed, however, the point of a language course is to teach the meaning outright, not to expect the learner to figure it out for themselves. The fact that people are winding up here confused and seeking clarification means the question should be revised or clarification should be given during the course.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/h_sapiens

Can "the patron" here refer to any patron that is salient in the linguistic context or obvious in light of world knowledge? Is it possible for the sentence to mean, e.g., "I pay a visit to your/his/their patron (not necessarily mine)"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jim878622

Why facio?! Doesn't that mean, I make?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Yes, it does.

We are being taught that "salutationem facio", "I make a greeting / I do the formal visit in the morning," refers to the client going to see his patron at the start of each business day.

We have also learned "iter facio," which literally means "I make/do a journey," and therefore means "I travel."

So, depending on which noun the verb controls as its direct object, "facio" will not (always or exclusively) be translated "I make/do."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jim878622

Thanks, I make a visit makes sense to me. I wish that they would give a more exact translation. I like the idea of getting into the mindset of the language. The comments on this are enlightening.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JMcQ455870

Great information below! The tips on vocabulary need to be rewritten or edited . Otherwise, it requires information that the new student (or even the old student) would never guess. Thank you pie and others.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AjaySinha18

Since Salutatio is suggested to mean - Ceremonial visit, How does "Salutationem" translate as - (I) visit the Patron ? Where is the Patron in the phrase ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Notice that salutationem is the object of whatever form of facio, facere you have in the sentence: "I am making the ceremonial visit" if it's salutationem facio , for example. The patron is the recipient of the ceremonial visit, so he's "understood". I suppose it's as if you said, "We're doing the christening tomorrow" and left the baby out of your formulation--but of course the baby is 'understood.'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/commediadellarte

'facere salutationem' I can understand as 'giving salutations to the patron' - i.e. visit the patron. but the non-declined version for salutationem is what? and means what? likely just 'giving salutations' = greeting someone....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

The noun is salūtātiō, salūtātiōnis , f. (the verbal noun that is derived from the verb salūtō, salūtāre, salūtāvī, salūtātum , to greet)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/commediadellarte

Facere salutationem (salutationem being a declined noun) literally translated then means: to make a salute = to give a greeting.
So even if culturally (roman times) the patron is implied here, can we not give a greeting to just anybody if wished - and it's expressed in that same phrase: ego salutationem facio. - ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Apparently, salūtātiōnem facere is sufficiently tied to the 'official greeting of a patron required by the clients, every morning' (like a levée under the ancien régime, I guess?), that the singular abstract noun (salūtātiō) can be used in the sense of "the people paying the call", in Cicero (as I see in the student Cassell's Latin dictionary).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/commediadellarte

Thank you SuzanneNussbaum. What you write makes a lot of sense, considering the 'cultural circumstance' of latin (in lack of a better description of what I mean). Wondering now if to say 'I greet' is just done then without the 'facere': just '(ego) saluto'. And 'I say hello' = 'dico salve' maybe...?.....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Yes, we can use the verb salūtāre ( Eum salūtō = "I greet him") for ordinary acts of "saying hello."

Grātiās tibi!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jessica-Jean

October 17, 2020 I write: "I make salutations." Marked wrong, and Duo said it should be "I make salutation." !!! Weird!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Well, I guess it's true that the -em ending indicates a singular noun, as opposed to salūtātiōnēs , which would be plural "salutations."

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