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"Would you like wine?"

Translation:Velisne vinum?

August 28, 2019

46 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

Velisne vinum? is accepted but Vinumne velis? is not. As long as the -ne particle is attached to the first word of the sentence it should be allowed. The first word does not have to be the main verb. That's my understanding anyway.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThomasRo2

Then I suggest it should be added to the accepted answers. As of 12-18-2019 it is still "wrong".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LeahPoindexter

As of 3/17/20 still wrong


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaSijm

As of 2/4/21 as well


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CynthiaAll13

In case anyone is interested, this ne is what is known as a 'Wackernagel clitic'--so names after Jacob Wackernagel, who observed in a classic article in 1892 that clitics tended to be placed in the second position of a sentence in a number of early Indo-European languages. Russian has a similar phenomenon with the question particle li.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JkumC5vF

No. The interrogative particle -ne must be attached to the verb, not to the first word. The same question could have been asked: vinum velisne? The attachment of the -ne particle to a noun has a disjunctive value (but -ve is more common): aquam vinumne velis? do you want water or wine?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

Well some authors do tend to keep it on the verb, best way to think of it is attaching it to the first word. That is much more common than keeping it on the verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JkumC5vF

If you have an example, I would be pleased to see it, because I don't remember to have ever found one (and I ate much latin in my youth...)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

How about the Aeneid? Tantaene animis caelestibus irae?

Or Cicero: Quid? is tibi mortemne videtur aut dolorem timere? (Tusculanae Disputationes 5.88)

Where does this idea that the -ne particle must be attached to the verb come from?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThomasRo2

I guess it's a misconception coming from the English "isn't it?". Though obviously not correct for Latin


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JkumC5vF

Ok, I accept these examples (and the prologue of the Aeneid I should have known, since I studied it in high school about 45 years ago... Never read the Tusculanae disputationes, though). However, in the first example the verb is missing and in the second one the -ne is not on the first word and I still have the suspicion that it can have a disjunctive value, as it is associated with aut. But I might be wrong


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

Give me a bit to find some.

I do remember “tune (tu+ne)” but I need to find the source.

I’ve also seen “_mne” like the neuter nominative subject, but again let me find the examples.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CynthiaAll13

No, it can't be attached to the verb if the verb is not in the first position, I believe. Hale and Buck's authoritative Latin Grammar discusses disjunctive ne in paragraph 234 and gives the example 'Romamne venio, an his maneo' 'do I come to Rome or saty here?' Can you produce an actual example from a classical author of ne in other than second position?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CoemgenusO

The subjunctive is definitely not necessary, and not great usage.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MagistraKate

Completely agree!! Have been leaving notes on this all over. Needs fixed!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mujilen

You are right, but the sentence is still correct if it is taken as potential: "Would you like wine (if there is any)?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MagistraKate

True, but I'm not sure that's what is intended here? Perhaps I'm just being grouchy for no reason.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SEXTVSINTERPARES

What's your recommended translation?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CoemgenusO

"Vin vinum?" or "Visne vinum?" ("Vin" is short for "visne")


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RemoFergus

Is word order necessary for such clause?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Moopish

If I remember correctly anything that has '-ne' added to the end of should be at the start of the sentence.

However, I am not sure if that is a hard rule or more a best practice.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

While some authors have broken it, I would say that yes, it is a rule. The enclitic goes on the end of the first word in a "yes/no" question,


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CynthiaAll13

It's an example of what linguists call a Wackernagel clitics, after the scholar who studied 'clitics' (things like ne that are neither separate words or inflections) that go in the second position in a sentence--attached to words of any type


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/suhridmulay

Google translate this sentence as Continue wine for some reason. Can someone tell me why?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

Latin is a highly inflected language, meaning that there are a lot of forms to each word in it. Googles algorithm has a hard time with this, and therefore I would not suggest it for translating.

It works pretty well with individual words, but it breaks down when it tries to incorporate syntax and inflection


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CynthiaAll13

You are right, Google Translate is hopeless with inflections and syntx.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vincemat

"Visne vinum" was accepted! 18 September 2020


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LadyOra

Vinum velisne? not accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

The suffix “-ne” is best placed on the first word in the sentence.

This is often a verb, but that it is on the first word is more important.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LadyOra

Hmm, and someone in rhe comments up there said that it being a verb is more important... :') Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

I mention that as well. Often, in these sorts of sentences, that is “yes/no questions” the Romans would place the verb first, thus adding the suffix to it.

But most importantly: the suffix goes on the end of the first word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Carolyn647595

I'd been sailing along using the singular you...how was I to know that this time it was the plural you? My answer: Vinum velis?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Moopish

Velisne is not the 2nd person plural form. It is the 2nd person singular form with the -ne interrogative enclitic. -ne just makes it a question expecting a yes or no answer.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnastasiaH47910

when i hover over the "would you like " it gives two options 1. velisne and 2. velitis but then it marks velitis wrong; what is the story here ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThomasRo2

Velitis would mean you(plural) want wine


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

Remember velitis is subjunctive so you (pl) would like wine. You (pl) want wine is the indicative vultis.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThomasRo2

You are absolutely right, master deepbow


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jsclingman

So, would velimne vinum mean Do I want wine??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

More like “would I.....”


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Trollface_Gaming

the '-ne' should be put at the end of 'vinum' because the sentence is specifically asking if we want wine, not if we want anything in general.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elin.7-1

Are you saying the '-ne' suffix can be added to nouns as well as verbs? I thought it only modified verbs (but I don't know for certain).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

It can go nouns, verbs, pronouns, etc. But it needs to be on the end of the first word in the question.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CynthiaAll13

The idea that it only goes on verbs comes from the fact that yes-no questions usually start with verbs.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IoannSynAlexeev

"-ne" means "-n't". Velisne == wouldn't.

"And would you like wine?" In latin looks like "velis vinum?", without -ne


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Magister_Smith

The "-ne" simply indicates a "yes/no" question. In your example, "velis vinum" you are making a declarative statement: "you would like wine."

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