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"Magistra Corinna litteras Latinas legit."

Translation:Teacher Corinna reads Latin literature.

August 29, 2019

93 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Septimus734191

This is awkward English. Better: "The teacher Corinna reads Latin literature."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bsun95

Or "Corinna, the teacher, reads Latin literature."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Batgris

Or could be Corinna the teacher


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

In the English speaking world we don't use "teacher" as an honorific. We do use "Professor," but then it would be followed by Corinna's surname.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bikejackel

Not all of us English speakers are so formal. There are times when Professor Corinna would be acceptable.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/anna857144

Not unless she was actually a professor


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AaronD.2

And in this case, where Corinna is a teacher, it should accept Mrs, Ms, and Miss, and specifically not, "Teacher Corinna."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AurelieKni

We call our teachers Madam or ma'am.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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There's a difference between polite address and the honorific attached to the name. I'm pretty sure no one says "Ma'am Corinna".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

So, we could imagine "Professor Corinna" in this case. Would "Master" works? (I don't say "mistress" because I think it's connoted.

And if Corinna is not a teacher in an university but in a kindergarten? (so no professor), what would it be?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/doccat

Kids in kindergarten do say 'teacher.' At least, we did.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/matthewfbyrnes

But not attached to a name, right? I hear "Teacher!" or I hear "Mr. So-and-so," but never "Teacher So-and-so."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/matthewfbyrnes

Outside of Batman's butler, I never hear "Master" used in the US. The connections to slavery make it cringy.

In the schools I've been to and taught at in the US, if Corinna was teaching kindergarten, she'd be "Ms. Last-Name." In a more informal school, it's possible she'd be "Ms. Corinna." K-12 teaching just isn't a very high status profession in the US, so there's no honorific for it unless the teacher has a PhD.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

The word dominus is generally used for master in the ownership sense. Magister is master in the teacher/tutor/expert sense.

Having said that, there is an old Scots word dominie for schoolmaster which is derived from dominus.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeanMeaneyPL

In the Faeirie Queene (IV,ii,32) Spenser refers to "Dan Chaucer, well of English vndefyled", no doubt thinking of Dan (Dominus) Chaucer as a learned "clerk". But why not "Dan Geoffrey"? Perhaps it doesn't work as an honorific before a given name.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

What is "vndefyled"? It seems very difficult to pronounce!
I saw it was a list of hard Latin words, but I still don't know the definition of this word.
Dan dominus?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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vndefyled

Today we would spell that "undefiled": un-de-file-d.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Macropicid

In the U.S., "Master" is only a proper title for boys under the age of thirteen (I like to imagine that Alfred is throwing shade at Bruce, there), and as such is rarely used these days.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michael543361

That's actually how I translated this at first. It made my inner grammar nerd go full-on nuclear when I was informed that my answer was incorrect...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kathryn920593

What is the difference between "litteras" and "litteris"? Why is the first used with lego and the second with studeo?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeterScham1

Litteras is accusative plural, meaning it is the direct object of lego (the thing that I read). Litteris is dative plural, meaning it is the indirect object of studeo. Studeo literally means "I am eager" or "I am diligent". If you think of it more in those terms, you will see that it doesnʻt make sense for it to take a direct object. Someone isnʻt "eager the book". Instead someone is "eager for the book" or "diligent to the book", which is why it is an indirect object (dative). The meaning "to study" is a transferred meaning from the idea of applying oneself to something (diligent to something). This, at least, is how I reconcile the use of dative for studeo. Here is a dictionary entry for the word: https://www.latinitium.com/lewisshort?s=studeo


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CesarRioBrasil

That's an excellent explanation! I've always wondered why ''lego'' takes a direct objet and ''studeo'', an indirect one. The latter doesn't really mean ''study'', as I thought, but ''I am eager'', as you said. It makes much difference. I won't forget it now. Thanks again. Have yourself a lingot. Spend it wisely. ;-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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It doesn't mean "I am eager" so much as "I dedicate myself to".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JacquesFre5

Is there somewhere any explanation about how I could spend unwisely my lingots. I wish there were some really wild ones.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

The explanation is here: When someone give an useful answer, upvote and give a lingot to make the answer noticeable by other learners. It's not "unwisely" but it's the only wise and useful one.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Poiuytl

The crack house at Duolingo Street.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OnkelD

Using the stem, one could also think in terms of "is studious about ... which would probably indicate the dative.


[deactivated user]

    from my Latin dictionary:

    studeo, studui, studere 2 (coniugazione) intr(ansitivo) applicarsi a, attendere a, studiare therefore "to study" with "to apply to" meaning, that's why it asks for dative case and not accusative


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeterScham1

    Additionally, I couldnʻt tell from the dictionary entry if studeo is an intransitive verb or not, but intransitive verbs in Latin take the dative instead of accusative. By definition, intransitive means that it doesnʻt take a direct object (accusative). Many verbs that are transitive in English are intransitive in Latin. Studeo may be one of these...


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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    To add to what Perce_Neige said, "studeo, studere" literally means "to dedicate oneself to", and this is why it takes the dative rather than the accusative.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

    Studere is listed as "intransitive" in Latin in my books. It's the reason why it takes an indirect object, and no direct objects.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeritheGreedy

    "Sister Corinna" is good English. "Teacher Corinna" isn't that good.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/doccat

    It is if you are 6 and in kindergarten.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AaronD.2

    No, it would be Mrs, Ms, or Miss Corinna, never teacher Corinna.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JonVonNeum

    Teacher Corinna is WRONG, no matter what english speaking country you are native to.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NickBell12

    Can we accept Miss Corinna? Teacher Corinna makes me feel like I'm playing Pokémon Crystal. In school you'd just say Miss (at least where I'm from).


    [deactivated user]

      As well as, in an ancient latin school in ancient Rome, they would say just Magister and Magistra, not Dominus and Domina which are the equivalents of Mr. and Mrs./Ms.

      I perfectly understand that for English people Teacher Corinna and Teacher Marcus sound very odd, but this is a strong part of Latin culture, which includes also the respectful manners that were mandatory when speaking to a teacher.

      Giulio Cesare would have called his paedagogus (tutor-slave) "Magister Marcus" not at all "Dominus Marcus".

      So, I guess there is really no other acceptable solution in alternative to it, and people should just shudder, shrug and then get use to it.

      My two cents.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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      In the Japanese course, they accept "Professor So-and-So" for "So-and-So sensei", even if it's not necessarily a college instructor.


      [deactivated user]

        I understand that, in Japan "sensei" is a honorific title, given also if the person isn't a real teacher, while in English it is not, as said by jairapetyan "In the English speaking world we don't use "teacher" as an honorific. We do use "Professor," but then it would be followed by Corinna's surname." That's why for English native speakers "Teacher So-and-So" sounds so bad.

        In Latin "Magister/Magistra" is both the right way to addressing a teacher, or better a tutor, together with the honorific title that goes along with being an educated person at those times, because being uneducated was the standard for the poor people and being educated was a privilege for few wealthy people.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AaronD.2

        The Japanese course specifically accepts professor and all of the Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss honorifics because teacher, in this case, is not proper English.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andreas1974

        "Corinna, a teacher, reads Latin literature", was not accepted. Of course there are no commas in the duolingo answer, and the casing indicated that this word order was not the expected one, but I thought it would be better than starting the sentence with "Teacher Corinna".


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

        The meaning is different here I think. The Latin sentence gives her a title, it's not "any teacher" like with "a teacher".


        [deactivated user]

          "Corinna, the teacher, reads Latin literature" has been proposed here https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/33852818?comment_id=33854791 and in my opinion it is the best solution which doesn't sound too awful to english speaking people and it still goes along with the meaning of magister / magistra as both profession and honorific title.


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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          But "Corinna, the teacher" (with or without the commas to make it either a parenthetical or an appositive) does not in any way evoke the sense that it is an honorific.


          [deactivated user]

            I know and I agree.

            But I don't have a "problem" with "Teacher Corinna" or "Teacher Marcus " at all, I am italian, and I already said that in Italy we still call teachers "Professor Marco" / "Professoressa Corinna" in middle school, high school and university, and even "Maestro Marco" / "Maestra Corinna" in elementary school, thus totally matching the latin "Magister Marcus" / "Magistra Corinna".

            So I also don't see at all the weirdness in using teacher as an honorific title, as instead english speaking people see, and thus keeping asking to accept "Miss Corinna" and "Mr. Marcus", but I can understand it, and if the compromise is "Corinna the teacher" in my opinion is the less worse.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AaronD.2

            Which is precisely why the Mr, Mrs, Ms, and Miss series of honorifics should be accepted instead. Those are the correct English constructs.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AaronD.2

            Mrs, Ms, and Miss Corinna should all be accepted, as it is improper English to use teacher in this way. For example, the Japanese course specifically does not accept uses of "Teacher Tanaka" because it is wrong, requiring instead the Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss honorifics, or professor.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SarahCavie

            Both Mistress and letters are literal translations of the words in this sentence and should be accepted as such.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/matthewfbyrnes

            True, but in modern English, especially in the US, mistress means something very different now and Corinna would likely be quite offended at being called a mistress.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SarahCavie

            I believe I did, somewhere, while posting this comment.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

            Sarah, it's very interesting to have sometimes the report, as it asks grammatical or cultural question, but when they don't, just report them. I upvoted your question, because it gives some ideas of the literal meanings, but usually, only use the report button.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/joao_o_ovo

            "Miss Corinna" should be accepted...


            [deactivated user]

              No, it shouldn't be accepted, in Italian we don't call teachers or professors "Mr. Marco or Mrs. Corinna or Mr./Mrs. Rossi, in classrooms students say "Professore/professoressa" just as discipuli were saying "Magister/Magistra" at that time.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

              But in England we do call our teachers Miss/Mrs Corrina or Mr Rossi, or simply miss (for both single and married female teachers) or sir.


              [deactivated user]

                But then in the English from Italian course should we accept "Teacher Corinna" just because in Italy we call our teacher "Professore". In my opinion we should not either. I think that, if I study English, it's like I am in England, therefore I call the teacher Miss/Mrs Corinna or Mr Rossi and not "Teacher Corinna", as well as if I study Latin it's like I am in the ancient Rome and I call the teacher Magister Marcus et Magistra Corinna not Dominus Marcus and Domina Corinna


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

                In France, kids in kindergarten and elementary school, call their teacher "maître" and "maîtresse" (English: master, mistress, Latin: magister/magistra)

                Older kids in secondary school, or kid in gymnasium, and even students in the university, call their teacher "Monsieur" and "Madame", when addressing directly to them.
                When referring to them, in the he/she, they say "Monsieur X", "Madame X".


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeterScham1

                Magistra doesn't mean "Miss" in Latin. It means "female teacher" (vs. Magister, male teacher). There isn't a clear definition for "Miss" in Latin, but some use Dominus / Domina for Mister/Misses. Here is a brief discussion of this: https://latin.stackexchange.com/questions/832/how-to-say-mister-mrs-miss-etc-in-latin


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/real-life-cyborg

                Well you don't know if it is Masculine or Feminine. So... So it shouldn't be accseptible.


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bechamp1

                Why is it 'litteras Latinas' and not 'litteras Latinae'? Is this like 'lingua Latina" where it seems to be a sort of compound noun instead of Latinus being used as an adjective? Or is this indicate a set of endings we haven't learned yet for adjectives being used with accusative cased nouns? Thanks!


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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                "Latinas" is an adjective and needs to agree with "litteras" in gender, number, and case. And that is feminine plural accusative.


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bechamp1

                Thanks! Have a Lingot. So are the adjectival endings always the same as the noun endings? So far that seems to be the case.


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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                Oh, absolutely not! Adjectives have their own declensions. "Latinus" just happens to be first declension when it's feminine, and littera just happens to also be first declension.


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AaronD.2

                Magistra Corinna litterás Latínás legit.


                https://www.duolingo.com/profile/InkBlotGlows

                Why litteras and not litteris?


                [deactivated user]

                  Because "litteris" is dative case, and the verb "lego, legere" takes the accusative case, which is "litteras"

                  differently from other similar sentences where there is "studeo, studere" which takes the dative case, in this case it would be "Magistra Corinna litteris Latinis studet."


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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                  "Legere" takes the accusative.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

                  See earlier in the discussion the responses to a similar question by Kathryn920593.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elias342401

                  I wrote 'Corinnas teacher reads Latin literature' which obviously was wrong, but the English of the solution is so awkward.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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                  Better awkward than wrong.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/real-life-cyborg

                  I put "Teacher Corinna reads literature in Latin." What is the difference? Why did it say that I was wrong. It can possibly be wrong. They are the same answer.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

                  Latinas is an adjective agreeing with litteras so it has to be "Latin literature". To express "literature in Latin" would require a more complex construction along the lines of "literature that was written in Latin".


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Macropicid

                  Forgive my ignorance, but would "Corinna's teacher" be "magistra Corinne"?


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sue982688

                  I am wondering about the (deeper) meaning of 'litteras latinas legit". I used to hear people in university, (I think especially in the humanities) refer to their field of study using 'read'. For example: 'I read law'. Does this phrase mean 'enrolled in the study of the subject of Latin Literature'? Or does it mean she's reading Latin literature (because she enjoys it). Or perhaps it can mean both.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gregor101901

                  In classical Latin I would have expected "Corinna magistra" like "Marcus senator" or "Cicero orator". Is that in the database too?


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AllemandeLeft

                  I think it should translated with

                  <pre> The female teacher Corinna reads Latin literature </pre>

                  or Corinna the female teacher reads Latin literature

                  I know that it's not good English (so is mine...) but correctly it should be translated with "female" in it. Because in earlier lessons you have to be exact with the sex of the teacher.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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                  No. Part of learning different languages is learning names and learning that not everything translates, directly or otherwise.

                  There is nothing grammatically wrong with "The female teacher Corinna", but that's just not how people generally talk (unless they're being sexist).


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

                  See the responses to a similar question by Kathryn920593 earlier in the discussion.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ace269070

                  This is exactly why I hate the duolingo Latin lessons. What is even the distinction between "the teacher Corinna reads" .. And "the teacher reads Corinna?"


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

                  Magistra and Corinna have the same ending; that makes it likely they're the same case and therefore complement each other. If the teacher were reading literature to Corinna, her name would be in the dative (the giving) case: Magistra Corinnae litteras Latinas legit. Here though you would need more context to know whether Corinnae was dative or genitive. If genitive it would mean "Corinna's teacher reads ..."


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DermotMcInerney

                  I had a serious problem with this sentence. While I correctly typed what I heard and was marked correct I think that the Latin was wrong. Magister, as far as I am aware is a masculine noun. As such it cannot have a feminine ending. What Duo has done - wrongly - is to use a noun as an adjective. It should have referred to Corinna as "magister" and not as "magistra".


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/H.ello

                  Shouldn't this be "teachress" Corinna?


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

                  It's not in the OED, although "teacheress" is but that is also very uncommon. I don't think I've ever heard it used.


                  https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Septimus734191

                  So what? The language we are all studying is archaic!

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