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"Prima hora ante meridiem est."

Translation:The first hour is before noon.

August 29, 2019

33 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

Thank you, The9! That answers a lot of questions! So the first hour is from sunrise, the sixth hour is at midday, and the twelfth hour is the last before sunset.

It's interesting that the article doesn't mention Ante Meridiem and Post Meridiem, the one little bit of Latin that everybody knows. Instead,

To indicate that it is a day or night hour Romans used expressions such as for example prima diei hora, prima noctis hora, hora prima noctis.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

From this very interesting page:

The Roman civil & religious day began at midnight" (...)

[Some scholars say] the hours were counted from dusk to dawn, hence that the 6th hour of the night represented [midnight and the 6th of the day, midday]. (see the "siesta" explanation above).

The page says that, but I think it's a contradiction? As dusk (sunset) is not always at the same hour.

Noon, in English, is from the Latin "Nona hora", for the 9th hour, and the Spanish siesta (that was borrowed by the other Romance language in siesta, and sieste) means 6th hour, sexta hora (noon I guess, because a nap at midnight would be normal).

So "noon", the 9th hour, wasn't 12 p.m (lunch time).

A bit confusing, between 6th hour and 9th hour, being both 12 p.m (lunch time), but it seems that scholars who said that it was not counted from midnight, but rather from the sunset (dusk) were right in this case. It seems more logical. Why would the 9th hour equivalent to the 12th hour from midnight in other cases?
Dusk can be +/- 3 hours easily.
They had sometimes their "noon" at 2 p.m sometimes at 11 p.m. Not always at the same of our hours.

And no sun dial working at midnight! So how they could start their day timing? I guess they could use clepsidra to monitor time when the sun dial was off. But it wasn't really needed. It's better to consider the beginning of the Roman day was the sunset hour: easy to notice.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

If I may be my usual pedantic self, there are no such times as 12 p.m. or 12 a.m.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamLarge

What did the Romans ever give us? Clearly not logical timekeeping.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theo639847

And, even more important, law. The Corpus Iuris Civilis is still at the base of all laws in the civilized world.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/palmiramar_

There are two different answers accepted: "the first hour is before noon" and "it's the first hour before noon". I think that their meanings are quite different


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andreas211

I think "the first hour is before noon" does not make much sense, although it may be correct grammatically; I'd vote for "It's the first hour before noon."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Please, see other comments, they solve this problem (From Jaira & The 9)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

I think the confusion here comes from the "est".

If it's a time, a hour of the day, I expected rather "The first hour before noon".

The "est" seems a description here, as when I explain arithmetic. The first hour is before the 2nd hours, etc...

Is the confusion only for me? Were Romans saying "est" to count the hours?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HinjakuHinjaku

How would you say "The first hour before noon" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

It depends on whether you want to say one a.m., which would be "Prima noctis hora" or the first Roman hour before noon, which would be "Prima hora ante meridiem."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Yes, first hour before noon can't be 1 a.m. It's the first hour after midnight.

The first hour before noon is 11 a.m.
11th hour: undecima ("hora" is optional) or hora undecima diei (of the day/daylight)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andrew211782

Except that, in Roman times times noon was the sixth hour so the hour before noon would be the fifth hour of daylight, not 11 am or the eleventh hour, which would be just before dusk!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/felipe.pina

"The first hour is before noon." is accepted as a valid solution but it seems incorrect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

Actually, it is correct. If you read the Wikipedia page that The9 referenced above, you will understand. Unfortunately I wrote, "It is one a.m." and reported it as an acceptable alternate, but now I see it isn't. My apologies to the course contributors. The translation of my sentence would be, "Prima noctis hora est."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hyrum_Yeates

Too much background noise


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NeilLeslie2

Why can't I say 'midday' instead of noon?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Frobisher

This seems confusing because, if I'm understanding it correctly, the sentence is just a tautology. I was expecting more to it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
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  • 2614

Even if it were just a tautology, it's still a good way to teach vocabulary and grammar.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

It's not a tautology. Read other comments.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SlavaBob

So let's say the first hour is 7 a.m. our time, that means 11 a.m. our time is the fifth hour. Would the Romans have said "It is the first hour before noon" to mean "it is the fifth hour?" Or would they always say "It is the fifth hour?" If they did say it the first way also, how would you say that in Latin? Wouldn't it also be "Prima hora ante meridiem est" or would it be something different? Anyone know?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Please, read the comments. They did not use "before noon" (AM) or "after noon" (PM), it's a modern thing.

It's the first hour since the dusk (or the dawn depending the versions), no need to consider the noon time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arthur723904

Why is "meridiem" in the accusative case? Is it the object of "ante"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dkahn400

In a prepositional phrase the case of the noun is said to be "governed" by the preposition. There's a useful page here showing which cases are governed by which prepositions.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
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  • 2614

Yes. Prepositions need objects, and that's the prepositional phrase: ante meridiem (before midday).

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/stage-1-latin/resources/stage-1-latin-grammar-resource/prepositions/


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SaintLeiska

is it that terrible mistake to say 'the first hour is before the noon'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
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  • 2614

Yes. No one says "the noon".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kurt587436

Why not: It is one hour before noon


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
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  • 2614

Because that is something very different in both Latin and in English, not just in words but in meaning.

The first hour is before noon -- Prima hora ante meridiem est.

It is one hour before noon -- Una hora ante meridiem est.

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