1. Forum
  2. >
  3. Topic: Latin
  4. >
  5. "Marcus, where do your daught…

"Marcus, where do your daughters sleep?"

Translation:Marce, ubi dormiunt filiae tuae?

August 29, 2019

46 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Vorobyey

Another inconsistent word order


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Melange_Addict

Yes, I am reporting every single time I give a correct answer that is not accepted. I am hoping they will work on the work order and accept more correct answers, especially answers that are more common than the ones provided.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Samuel455686

does this means that "Marcus, ubi filiae tuae dormiunt" would be correct?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Vorobyey

Yes but needs to be "Marce"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tilak919216

Could you please help me understand why it has to be Marce and not just Marcus


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

There are explanations elsewhere on this page. "Marcus" is the nominative, "Marce" is the vocative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PauloMuffato

The subject of the sentence is the one who does the action. Here, Marcus is neither subject nor predicate, but a "call". Thus, vocative of Marcus is Marce.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MathewKeen1

I dont get that. They asked Marcus so why does it have to change? It would just be "Marcus, ubi filiae dormiunt tui" instead of tuae, correct?

By the way, they incorrectly marked me wrong for using that order. Even though I did what they wanted, and used Marce & tuae.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Two problems here.

(1). You're thinking of the possessive ("your daughters") as being like "daughters OF YOU."

Maybe because we would correctly say "Marcus' daughters" / "daughters of Marcus" as fīliae Marcī , where the form Marcī is the genitive singular (possessive) of a 2nd decl. noun; you're 'harmonizing' the word YOUR as if it were also a 2nd decl. word. Here, it's not.

Latin doesn't say "daughters of you" (or "of me"), but instead uses a possessive adjective:

tuus, tua, tuum = belonging to you (when YOU = the singular, tu).

Just as we would say "happy daughters" (fīliae laetae ) or "Roman daughters" (fīliae Rōmānae ), with the ae, feminine plural nominative ending on the adjective, that describes the _fīliae (fem, nom, pl);

so we say fīliae tuae , for "your daughters," when THEY are the subject of the sentence ("Where do THEY sleep?").

(2) You're missing the point that names like Marcus ( = 2nd decl. masc. nomin. sing., ending in -us) have a special form used when the person is directly addressed :

the -us ending changes to -e.

It's called a vocative. Most vocatives are identical to the nominative form (as for pater : Father is angry = Pater est īrātus . Come on, father! = Age, pater ! ), but NOT the -us 2nd decl. masculine singulars:

HE, Marcus (subject) = Marcus (Hey you), Marcus! (vocative) = Marce


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Charlie868448

I figured out it is Marce if you are speaking to Marcus/addressing him.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

Not really. In questions, the verb comes earlier in the sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Yes. Ubi dormiunt puellae? = more natural, than Ubi puellae dormiunt?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jlyons4435

I was taught that words in the locative case rarely come first in a sentence but are set off by commas. So, it would be something like "Ubi, Marce, ...".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jlyons4435

I meant "vocative case" not locative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

You're right about that; the preference is to embed the vocative in the utterance (similar to the way "inquit" or "ait", for "he/she says/said," is also embedded inside the quotation).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Archie_Piatt

It's not inconsistent. You only put verbs at the end if they are not in a question. As the question relates to the verb, it goes directly after ubi.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clemc0

Ubi dormiunt • [ Where is sleeping being done by your daughters - whatever of interest is going on at a location will follow Ubi ]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/varkentje123

It's really a Duolingo problem that there is no option to select "My answer is incorrect", when it is counted as correct. I keep typing "dormunt", and I'm not learning it's "dormiunt" because Duolingo assumes it's just a typo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Duolingo knows it, but courses moderators have no power on it. As it's something that can be changed only by the software engineers who make the algorithm. Changing that requires programming.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

The course contributors have said that they have no control over what gets a pass as a typo. That's a matter for the correction algorithm, which is programmed by the site devs.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

A shift in word order (Ubi dormiunt, Marce, fīliae tuae?) was marked as incorrect. Duolingo also marks as incorrect: Ubi dormiunt fīliae tuae, Marce?

I believe it's common (if not regular) to "embed" the vocative in the remark issued to that person (rather than starting with it, or ending with it, as we do in English).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Interesting. Do you have some examples of Latin sentences in books?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Well, here's an example from Caesar (De Bello Gallico 4. 25), where the Romans are enduring a difficult landing in Britain: Atque nostris militibus cunctantibus, maxime propter altitudinem maris, qui decimae legionis aquilam ferebat, obtestatus deos, ut ea res legioni feliciter eveniret, "Desilite," inquit, "commilitiones , nisi vultis aquilam hostibus prodere; ego certe meum rei publicae atque imperatori officium praestitero." Hoc cum voce magna dixisset, se ex navi proiecit ...

(And, while our soldiers were hesitating, especially because of the depth of the sea, he who was carrying the eagle of the tenth legion, having beseeched the gods that this event turn out well for the legion, said to them, "Jump down, fellow soldiers, unless you want to betray the eagle to the enemy; I certainly will have displayed my duty to the republic and to the commander." When he had said this in a loud voice, he threw himself from the ship...)

I would point to the "commilitiones" after the imperative "Desilite" and the "he said" (inquit), as an example of this 'vocative' embedding.

Anyone who teaches the Advanced Placement Latin curriculum will be familiar with this sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/abeilles

Thank you !! I would like to understand the cases more. Pretty good at memorizing the patterns, but am ready for the grammar !


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

If you click the light bulb icon before diving into the lessons, you'll see some information on the current grammar point they're focusing on.

There's also this that I wrote up:
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/33822673?comment_id=34261475

(And could you please reply directly to me instead of making a new top-level comment? It will help keep the conversation together.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eva799765

The word order suggested by Duo is, arguably, less correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

Questions tend to follow a different syntax than declarative statements.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/avvorio

The first time I got this marked incorrect because I used Marcus instead of Marce. Your use of Marce et Marcus has no rhyme or reason. The only instance is where the question is inferred to be among friends. How am I to know which?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/abeilles

Why is Marcus sometimes accepted and other times marked wrong, for Marce? This is inconsistant.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

It's not inconsistent. This is one of the rules of Latin grammar you need to learn.

Marcus is the nominative, used generally when he is the subject of the sentence and you're talking about him.

Ubi habitat Marcus? Where does Marcus live?

Marce is the vocative, used when you're addressing him directly.

Marce, ubi habitas? Marcus, where do you live?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maike423370

It would be easier if there were explanations as to why sometimes it is Marcus and sometimes it's Marce... That is my one complaint, that the vocabulary file is only available on browser but not the app, and that there are no lessons about WHY things are right/wrong, basic rules and grammar.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

The tips and notes are available to me on Android. If you use the web site, you will have access to the lesson notes where they go over case. If the lesson notes don't show up for you for some reason, there is a mirror site:

https://duome.eu/tips/en/la

And here's something I typed up:

Here is a plain-English overview of what the cases are and how they work:
Latin cases, in English

Here are the noun and adjective declension charts:
declensions 1-3
declensions 4&5

Adjectives must agree in gender, number, and case with the nouns they modify, but they have their own declensions. Sometimes you get lucky and the adjective just happens to follow the same declension as the noun, but that is not a guarantee.

For good measure, here are the verb conjugation charts:
1st Conjugation
2nd Conjugation
3rd Conjugation
3rd i-stem Conjugation
4th Conjugation


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ScottKBeck

Why is "Marce, filiae tuae ubi dormiunt" wrong?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

Because the question word needs to come first, and then the focus of the question:
Marce, ubi dormiunt filiae tuae?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

Most natural & logical word order : (1) Question-word (2) verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

Natural, yes. Logical, no. Language does not operate based on logic, only convention.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Charlie868448

That sounds kinda creepy.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jon543430

Why is the name Marcus, sometimes, translated from English to Latin as Marcus & sometimes Marce but everytime from Latin to English, Marcus is Marcus. And how do you know ,in Latin when to use which?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

This has been discussed on this page already.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuzanneNussbaum

Indeed.

It is worth stressing that a name (of a person or place) is always cited in English in the nominative form.

Jon, you can think of the Latin changes to the name "Marcus" as being analogous to the changes we make in English with our pronouns, like HE (only for a subject of the verb: Lat. nomin.--Marcus goes to the store); HIM (only for an object: We come to Marcus (= Lat. ad Marcum venīmus, object of prep. ad, which takes accus.) or We love Marcus ( = Lat. Marcum amāmus, direct object of "we love," accus).

There's the "Hey, YOU!" form of his name, when he is directly spoken to: Hey, Marcus, where do your daughters sleep? This is the one represented by Marce , in Latin. We don't do anything like that in English (= changing the form of a word, when the person is addressed), but we do know what it is to talk to a person.

I don't know how much play Duolingo has given to other forms of "Marcus," such as: She is Marcus' sister (possessive: genitive: Ea est soror Marcī) or Tell Marcus the story (indirect object: dative: Nārrā Marcō fābulam!) or Cum Marcō iter facimus (ablative object of prep. cum: We are traveling with Marcus (or "we are making a journey" with him).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LupusFulgu

Why are so many of the answers inconsistent? First they dont tell us the difference, now they want to throw a curveball at us? Alright then


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rae.F
Mod
Plus
  • 2614

You haven't specified what you're finding inconsistent. I'm going to guess that it's noun cases, and why it's "Marce" here and not "Marcus"? We need the vocative here instead of the nominative because he's not the subject of the sentence. We're addressing him directly and "Marce" is technically outside of the sentence like an exclamation.

If you read the other comments on this page, you will see this explained further.

From now on, please:

  1. Read the comments first to see if your question has already been addressed.
  2. Ask very specific questions so we don't have to guess.
  3. Copy and paste or take a screenshot of your entire answer so we can see what you wrote and help you identify the real reason (or reasons) you were marked wrong.
Learn Latin in just 5 minutes a day. For free.