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"The merchants carry the food and sell it in the forum."

Translation:Mercatores cibos portant et in foro vendunt.

September 2, 2019

30 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

I tried, "Mercatores cibum portant et in foro illum vendunt.: Now I understand the illum was not necessary, but is my sentence at least an acceptable alternate?


[deactivated user]

    It is acceptable mediaeval Latin as it is. The pronoun “illum” by then does not always just mean “that”, but “eum” (“it”) might be more usual (“...et eum in foro vendunt”). The “correct” sentence is still not particularly good Classical Latin because two main clauses are combined by “et”, rather than subordinating one to the other.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

    Thank you Ivor. What would be an example of a sentence that subordinates one clause to the other? I think in English it would be more logical to say, "The merchants carry the bread to sell it in the forum."


    [deactivated user]

      That would make the first verb the main one, and is of course quite possible: mercatores cibum portant ut in foro vendant. If they are already selling it, however, it is the carrying which needs to be subordinated: mercatores cibum in forum portatum vendunt (Merchants sell food having been carried into the forum - it’s clear that they are selling the food in the forum since that is where they carried it to).


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LisaRowe2

      I made the same error as jairapetyan, but the suggested answer was "Mercatores cibum portant et eos vendunt in foro" with eos instead of eum. This confused me?


      [deactivated user]

        You should be confused by that! The suggested answer is wrong, since the plural eos does not agree in number with the singular cibum.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LisaRowe2

        Thank you, I feel much better!


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/2w51S8uZ

        I also wrote "Mercatores cibum portant et in foro illum vendunt.". They frequently give sentences with unnecessary words as "correct" alternatives, so I'm not sure that "illum" is the problem. Maybe it's another case of our needing to be able to guess when they're using a word like "food" or "fish" as a plural versus a singular noun. Hard to learn from mistakes when you don't know what was wrong and why.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Amrhilman

        I translate the sentence as, the merchants carry the FOODS. Shouldn't the Latin sentence be, mercatores cibum portant instead?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

        No, because your English sentence means that they must carry several kind of food, and it's not mentioned in the Latin sentence.
        I believe, according to the examples I saw, that both the singular and the plural is used to mean food, as you would have la nourriture/les aliments, a singular and a plural, in French to mean food. And it's also very plausible that the plural mean "meals", but never "different kind of foods".

        To mention several kind of foods, it would be another way in Latin, as "food" is not an uncountable in Latin, the specificity of uncountable nouns don't apply to it.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RinZero

        The object for sell provides the number clue. If the use of "food" was plural, it would be "sell them" because object number generally agrees in English. But here it was "sell it", meaning singular, so the form of cibus used should be singular as well.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/2w51S8uZ

        No, in this case it would be very unusual to say them even if the plural was intended. For example: Did you get all the food for the picnic? Yeah, I got it.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ConorHoughton

        Does the second clause not need an "it"?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Quidam_Homo

        It's very common in Latin to establish an object and then have multiple verbs apply to it, where in English we would tend to keep referring back to that object using pronouns.

        Exempli gratia, "they arrested him and put him in gaol" would very naturally be expressed in Latin with only one "him": "eum comprenderunt et in vincula coniecerunt".


        [deactivated user]

          Or even more succinctly, “comprehensum in vincula coniecerunt”.


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ArieTornBr

          Firstly, 'cibos' plural can be used, but is not the literal translation of 'food' singular. Secondly, the sentence could be 'Mercatores cibos ferunt et eos in foro vendunt'. But if you'd be doing those small corrections, you could go on and on, especially with sentences about killing (for which latin has a lot of verbs and expressions)

          Nunc omnibus qui lingua anglica non valent tam lingua latina: sententia haec revera deberet esse (Anglice): The merchants carry the [foods], nam si 'cibos' obtinere velis a studiosis, [food] non valet. Id enim transtulitur 'cibum' (acc. masc.).


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

          I've found expressions where "cibos" plural refers to "food". (but never "foods")

          "cibos" in my opinion, mean meals/dishes, and sometimes food (depending of the context)

          admitto aliquid in cibos= I use a substance as food (yes, you can also say "meals" here, the difference is weak in this context).
          cibos libo = I taste dishes.


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Robert_in_USA

          This was very helpful. Thank you.


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Noahgamerrr

          Why is cibos in the plural form?


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PERCE_NEIGE

          Because it's not an uncountable in Latin. Here, it probably mean "meals".
          (or even "food", as they seemed to use sing. and plural to mean it)


          https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SnarlsBarky

          D'uh, I don't get it. Unless defined by context, is the word "food" in the generic sense assumed always to be the plural "cibos?" (Advance thanks and the promise of a couple of my precious lingots to s/he who is willing to take the time to clear this up for me.)


          [deactivated user]

            In Classical literature the singular is about twice as frequent as the plural. If there is any significant distinction, I would say that the singular is food in general or just “some food", while the plural would signify “foods”, “dishes", types of food, etc., and sometimes possibly all types of food, thus making it universal.


            https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SnarlsBarky

            Thanks, Ivor! And here are your two promised lingots. :°}


            [deactivated user]

              gratias tibi ago!


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theo639847

              I am confused and at the same time happy with the explanation. food is singular I thought, but in ancient Rome they thought and spoke not in English.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gaufridius5

              Back at college i would have said et eum in foro vendunt means they sell the food in the forum. But et illum in foro...they sell something else besides taking food to the forum.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michelle994326

              I'm missing something.

              In the previous sentence, "Coquus cibum facit.", "food" is singular.

              So why in this sentence, "Mercatores cibos portant et in foro vendunt.", is "food" plural?

              Does "food" need to agree in number with the subject of the sentence?


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Copernicus-

              Does "food" need to agree in number with the subject of the sentence?

              No, it doesn't.

              So why in this sentence, "Mercatores cibos portant et in foro vendunt.", is "food" plural?

              You can also use the singular "cibum"; I'm sure that is also accepted. Other comments on this page have noted that the plural could refer to multiple meals, or multiple types of food, either of which could also be described as simply "food."


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Michelle994326

              Does "food" need to agree in number with the subject of the sentence?

              No, it doesn't.

              Thanks for clearing this up for me.


              https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gaufridius5

              How come Duolingo can translate food as cibos but elsewhere insists on "foods" for cibos and food for cibum. If it is going to have daft English at least make it consistent.

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