"I have received a pair of them."
Translation:Ne ho ricevute un paio.
84 CommentsThis discussion is locked.
Because "pair of them" in this case are of female gender in plural (something like "the two shirt / Le due maglie" )
Ho ricevuto le due maglie. // Ne ho ricevute un paio.
I'm not sure though, if we're translating from the English then there's no way to know whether the arbitrary "them" is masculine or feminine. Besides, "un paio" is itself masculine singular, which led me to believe that "ricevuto" ought to be correct.
I guess it's because "ne" replaces something plural (un paio [di something plural]), so the participle has to agree with whatever its replacing. But like you say, there's no way of telling whether it's masculine or feminine.
Persona 1: Hai ricevuto un paio di libri?
Persona 2: Sì, ne ho ricevuti un paio.
1: Anche hai ricevuto un paio di maglie?
2: Sì, pure ne ho ricevute un paio.
Yes, Dan is correct. Un paio is masculine singular and so 'Ne ho ricevuto un paio' was accepted. It makes me wonder whether DL answer is correct.
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I disagree. The NE says of them which can be femininum plural or masculinum plural so either ''ricevute'' or ''ricevuti''. Both are accepted and correct.
I used ricevuto and was marked correct, with ricevutE as an alternative.
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German, IMO Duo is NOT correct to accept masculine singular. The participle here agrees not with "un paio", but with the items that make up the pair. See my long post on this page for more.
ricevuto would still not be correct. It could be ricevuti for masculine plural or ricevute for feminine plural.
There is no way for us to tell what has been received but, - when 'ne' (of them) is used in 'passato prossimo' the ending of the past particle 'ricevuto' (received) should reflect the number and gender of the object.
Possible object --> Translation
'i libri' p.m. --> Ne ho ricevuti . .
'le chiave' p.f. --> Ne ho ricevute . .
'i pantaloni' s.m. --> Ne ho ricevuto . .
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My dictionary says: pantalóni sostantivo maschile plurale. So shouldn't it be: i pantaloni --> Ne ho ricevuti . . ?
As Emile mentioned correctly, i pantaloni is not singular, as you can see from the use of the masculine plural article 'i' instead of singular 'il'. I pantaloni is one of these words that take the plural even when talking about just one pair. (presumably because one pair has two legs ;) )
- 1678
The word pantaloni is indeed masculine plural, however un paio di pantaloni (a pair of trousers) is singular (one group of two things), so
"ho ricevuto un paio di pantaloni"
would be correct, if a pair of trousers was the object of the sentence.
However, when you substitute the things with "ne" to mean "of them", you're no longer referring to the pair as the object, but the individual things themselves (the trousers, plural), so
"ne ho ricevuti un paio" would be the correct construction, when the 'them' referred to by ne were trousers.
We know that ne means of them in this case, because it's the only thing that makes sense with "I have received a pair". You wouldn't say a pair of it, a pair of some, a pair of any, or a pair of none.
This exercise complicates things because it is a sentence fragment without specifying what the 'them' are, so all you see is "un paio", with no obvious connection as to why the plural form of ricevuto is expected.
https://ciaoitaliablog.wordpress.com/classes/the-italian-ne
https://www.thoughtco.com/using-ne-in-italian-4074179
The forum discussion on the companion exercise to this one (Italian to English) has a more detailed explanation by Signor Formica.
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/397729/Ne-ho-ricevute-un-paio
There is currently an error; depending on the gender of the noun you are referring to, "ricevuti" or "ricevute" could be correct.
I thought only part participles that took 'ester' needed to agree with the subject?
When the helper verb is essere, the participle needs to agree with the subject. When the helper verb is avere and there is a direct object before the verb, then the participle needs to agree with the direct object.
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Ne ho ricevuto un paio is accepted. If I understand above comments correctly this should be an error?
That's what I used. My reasoning was "paio" is masculine. "I have received a pair (of them)." Accepted 3.20.19. Good question.
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No, what was received was "un paio" of them is simply descriptive of un paio. Thus the ho ricevuto is correct pero' ricevute may also be correct.
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The word "ne" is a clitic, just like "la" or "lo". So, just like "la" or "lo", it goes directly in front of the verb.
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Some assistance with grammar, per favore. :-) My understanding is that when the 'helper' verb is avere, the participle does not agree with the subject or number (whereas if the helper verb is essere, the participle does agree with the gender and number. So: ho ricevuto, hai ricevuto, ha ricevuto, abbiamo ricevuto, avete ricevuto, hanno ricevuto. So why is ricevute (presumably the feminine plural) accepted when the helper verb is based on avere? Thanks!
Since others may care, I'll answer even though this was asked a year ago.
When the helper verb is essere then the participle must have agreement (in gender and number) with the subject.
When the helper verb is avere then the participle must be masculine singular unless there is a direct object before the verb (ne in this case). If a direct object precedes the verb, then the participle must have agreement with the direct object.
Just to add a complication the word pair in English is singular, despite being a collecting noun. Hmmm.
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It seems that ne has to come at the beginning of this sentence. Why? What is the rule?
It comes before the verb ("ho" in this case). Same as most direct and indirect object pronouns. Clitic pronouns, as Duolingo calls them ("me", "te", "si", "vi", "ci", etc), since they're attached to the verb.
- 2539
Both ricevuto (which is what I put) and ricevute is accepted. I am not sure why either is considered correct...it should be one or the other but I put ricevuto as I think of "pair" as singular which is how it is considered in English. I assume ricevuti would be correct also if the pair of whatever is being spoken about is masculine.
- 1886
Perhaps 'ne' could be singular in this sentence, as in 'a pair of trousers', I received one pair of trousers, which is a single item. Just a thought.
In British English, "pair" and other collective nouns can be conjugated as plurals, but not in American English.
- 2709
The noun: un paio, of them, for them, of pants etc. are descriptive of the object of the sentence; "un paio". But according to what i read here there seems to be some ambiguity on which form of the p.p. to use. Duo, and perhaps the language is permissive on this point?
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To understand the grammar when "ne" is involved, it may help to look at the following sentences.
1a. I have received a dog
1b. Ho ricevuto un cane
2a. I have received two apples
2b. Ho ricevuto due mele
3a. I have received a pair of dogs
3b. Ho ricevuto un paio di cani
4a. I have received a pair of apples
4b. Ho ricevuto un paio di mele
5a. I have received a pair of them [dogs]
5b. Ne ho ricevuti un paio [cani]
6a. I have received a pair of them [apples]
6b. Ne ho ricevute un paio [mele]
Note that in 1 the direct object is sing masc “dog” and in 2 is pl fem “apples”. But in both cases the participle is the same, “ricevuto”. The participle does NOT change for number or gender.
In all the remaining sentences 3-6, the direct object is sing masc “paio”. But, once again, the direct object does NOT affect the form of the participle. It is a mistake to argue that in 5-6 the participle must agree with sing masc “paio”. It does not, any more than the participle agrees with the direct object in 1-2.
On the other hand, when “ne” is involved, the participle changes to agree with whatever “ne” is standing in for. And in 5-6 “ne” stands in for the individual items that make up the pair, NOT for the sing masc word “paio” itself.
Some of the posters here argue that we must look at "a pair of things" as an inseparable unit, with "pair" as the main word. Therefore, they say, the "ne" here must be referring to sing masc "paio".
But that is not how the partitive works. Even in English -- well, literary English, anyway -- we can make a separation. For example, instead of saying "I bought 3 pairs of gloves and 5 bottles of wine", we can say, in elegant style, "Of the gloves I bought 3 pair, of the wine, 5 bottles".
Furthermore, it makes no sense to say that "ne" is there to stand in for "paio", because "paio" is in the sentence already, as the direct object. It does not need a clitic to stand in for it!
So I would argue that it is wrong for Duo to accept here “Ne ho ricevutO un paio”, where the participle is modified to agree with sing masc “paio”. It is with the constituents of “paio” that the participle must agree.
Fortunately, Duo also accepts “ricevutI”and “ricevutE” here. That is, with the participle agreeing with the constituents, either pl masc or pl fem as the case may be.
"Ne" is a pronoun for "of them." You don't have to use the pronoun. You can add "di loro" to the end instead of "ne" at the beginning. If you do that then there is no direct object before the verb and the participle must be masculine singular (with avere).
But "A pair" is singular, even if a pair is made of two things. It's ONE pair.
what exactly does 'NE' mean? when I look up the word it just seems to mean NEITHER yet that is not how it seems to be used..anyone?
"né" with the accent is the one that means "neither" or "nor".
"ne" without the accent is a pronoun, as explained by previous comments.
- 685
Because the participle does not refer to the pair. It refers to the items that make up the pair.
There is no context here, so we do not know here whether the things that make up the pair are masculine plural or feminine plural. But it must be a plural, because of the meaning of "pair". So the participle must take one of the plural endings, -i or -e.
I wrote "Io ne ho ricevute un paio" and it returned an error - should that be allowed?
In one of the present perfect discussions someone suggested a great website for verb conjugations. Please post the link again.
Agreed - why not ricevuto to agree with un paio - we have no idea what it's a pair of!
Earrings? Gloves? Socks? Shoes? Boots? Plow horses? Love birds? Mittens?
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T8cLqx4z - "...why not ricevuto to agree with un paio - we have no idea what it's a pair of!
Maybe because a pair = 2 of something, which is plural.
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While "a pair" in English may be considered singular, it describes a quantity of two, which is plural.
"When ne is used in the past to replace a noun used with an expression of quantity, the past participle agrees in gender and number with the noun ne is replacing."
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Is there a reason why the " ne " of them, is put at the front of the sentence? Why doesn't it work at the end of the sentence? Thanks for any help with this.
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Thanks anyway, I see my question regarding why " ne " must be at the beginning of the sentence, was previously answered.
For the love, why can you not say: "Ne ho ricevute di un paio" - I have received a pair OF them? Or does the clitic "ne" already somehow account for that?
Shouldn't it be "ricevuto" because "avere" was used instead of "essere"? (Ne ho ricevuto un paio.)
No. When essere is the helping verb, the past participle has to agree (in gender and number) with the subject. When avere is the helping verb and there is a direct object before it, the past participle has to agree with that. "Ne" (of them) is plural, so we need a plural ending (either masculine or feminine since "them" could be all women).
Thank you for your answer! But isn't the use of "ho" in the sentence a form of "avere" not "essere"?
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Yes. But as clive explained, you still need agreement because in this sentence there is a clitic before "ho", and the participle must agree with the clitic.
Do you mean that ,ne, means of them? Why is it so complicated? In other sentences we used ‘del loro ‘ to indicate of them, why can’t we use it in this case? I translated Io ho ricevuto un paio di loro and it was marked wrong. Can someone explain please
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https://learnamo.com/come-quando-usare-ne/ was very helpful. It also has an answer to your question.
I have problem with the NE, so is it the same as I, or me. Thank you for help.
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The word "ne" does not mean "I" and it does not mean "me". Here it means "of them":
Ne | ho | ricevute | un paio
Of them | I have | received | a pair
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I thought the passato prossimo ending only changed number/gender if the helping verb was essere. In this case it's avere. Ho ricevuto according to Reverso.
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See the comment on this page from clive.
In sum, if there is a clitic pronoun involved, then the past participle changes to agree with the pronoun -- even when "avere" is used as the auxiliary.
Tomas, I can't escape the feeling that you are posting without first reading the comments already on this page ...
