"I have received a pair of them."
Translation:Ne ho ricevute un paio.
84 CommentsThis discussion is locked.
I guess it's because "ne" replaces something plural (un paio [di something plural]), so the participle has to agree with whatever its replacing. But like you say, there's no way of telling whether it's masculine or feminine.
Persona 1: Hai ricevuto un paio di libri?
Persona 2: Sì, ne ho ricevuti un paio.
1: Anche hai ricevuto un paio di maglie?
2: Sì, pure ne ho ricevute un paio.
25
I disagree. The NE says of them which can be femininum plural or masculinum plural so either ''ricevute'' or ''ricevuti''. Both are accepted and correct.
685
German, IMO Duo is NOT correct to accept masculine singular. The participle here agrees not with "un paio", but with the items that make up the pair. See my long post on this page for more.
There is no way for us to tell what has been received but, - when 'ne' (of them) is used in 'passato prossimo' the ending of the past particle 'ricevuto' (received) should reflect the number and gender of the object.
Possible object --> Translation
'i libri' p.m. --> Ne ho ricevuti . .
'le chiave' p.f. --> Ne ho ricevute . .
'i pantaloni' s.m. --> Ne ho ricevuto . .
1356
My dictionary says: pantalóni sostantivo maschile plurale. So shouldn't it be: i pantaloni --> Ne ho ricevuti . . ?
1678
The word pantaloni is indeed masculine plural, however un paio di pantaloni (a pair of trousers) is singular (one group of two things), so
"ho ricevuto un paio di pantaloni"
would be correct, if a pair of trousers was the object of the sentence.
However, when you substitute the things with "ne" to mean "of them", you're no longer referring to the pair as the object, but the individual things themselves (the trousers, plural), so
"ne ho ricevuti un paio" would be the correct construction, when the 'them' referred to by ne were trousers.
We know that ne means of them in this case, because it's the only thing that makes sense with "I have received a pair". You wouldn't say a pair of it, a pair of some, a pair of any, or a pair of none.
This exercise complicates things because it is a sentence fragment without specifying what the 'them' are, so all you see is "un paio", with no obvious connection as to why the plural form of ricevuto is expected.
https://ciaoitaliablog.wordpress.com/classes/the-italian-ne
https://www.thoughtco.com/using-ne-in-italian-4074179
The forum discussion on the companion exercise to this one (Italian to English) has a more detailed explanation by Signor Formica.
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/397729/Ne-ho-ricevute-un-paio
1356
Ne ho ricevuto un paio is accepted. If I understand above comments correctly this should be an error?
2709
No, what was received was "un paio" of them is simply descriptive of un paio. Thus the ho ricevuto is correct pero' ricevute may also be correct.
685
The word "ne" is a clitic, just like "la" or "lo". So, just like "la" or "lo", it goes directly in front of the verb.
1321
Some assistance with grammar, per favore. :-) My understanding is that when the 'helper' verb is avere, the participle does not agree with the subject or number (whereas if the helper verb is essere, the participle does agree with the gender and number. So: ho ricevuto, hai ricevuto, ha ricevuto, abbiamo ricevuto, avete ricevuto, hanno ricevuto. So why is ricevute (presumably the feminine plural) accepted when the helper verb is based on avere? Thanks!
Since others may care, I'll answer even though this was asked a year ago.
When the helper verb is essere then the participle must have agreement (in gender and number) with the subject.
When the helper verb is avere then the participle must be masculine singular unless there is a direct object before the verb (ne in this case). If a direct object precedes the verb, then the participle must have agreement with the direct object.
1435
It seems that ne has to come at the beginning of this sentence. Why? What is the rule?
2539
Both ricevuto (which is what I put) and ricevute is accepted. I am not sure why either is considered correct...it should be one or the other but I put ricevuto as I think of "pair" as singular which is how it is considered in English. I assume ricevuti would be correct also if the pair of whatever is being spoken about is masculine.
1886
Perhaps 'ne' could be singular in this sentence, as in 'a pair of trousers', I received one pair of trousers, which is a single item. Just a thought.
2709
The noun: un paio, of them, for them, of pants etc. are descriptive of the object of the sentence; "un paio". But according to what i read here there seems to be some ambiguity on which form of the p.p. to use. Duo, and perhaps the language is permissive on this point?
685
To understand the grammar when "ne" is involved, it may help to look at the following sentences.
1a. I have received a dog
1b. Ho ricevuto un cane
2a. I have received two apples
2b. Ho ricevuto due mele
3a. I have received a pair of dogs
3b. Ho ricevuto un paio di cani
4a. I have received a pair of apples
4b. Ho ricevuto un paio di mele
5a. I have received a pair of them [dogs]
5b. Ne ho ricevuti un paio [cani]
6a. I have received a pair of them [apples]
6b. Ne ho ricevute un paio [mele]
Note that in 1 the direct object is sing masc “dog” and in 2 is pl fem “apples”. But in both cases the participle is the same, “ricevuto”. The participle does NOT change for number or gender.
In all the remaining sentences 3-6, the direct object is sing masc “paio”. But, once again, the direct object does NOT affect the form of the participle. It is a mistake to argue that in 5-6 the participle must agree with sing masc “paio”. It does not, any more than the participle agrees with the direct object in 1-2.
On the other hand, when “ne” is involved, the participle changes to agree with whatever “ne” is standing in for. And in 5-6 “ne” stands in for the individual items that make up the pair, NOT for the sing masc word “paio” itself.
Some of the posters here argue that we must look at "a pair of things" as an inseparable unit, with "pair" as the main word. Therefore, they say, the "ne" here must be referring to sing masc "paio".
But that is not how the partitive works. Even in English -- well, literary English, anyway -- we can make a separation. For example, instead of saying "I bought 3 pairs of gloves and 5 bottles of wine", we can say, in elegant style, "Of the gloves I bought 3 pair, of the wine, 5 bottles".
Furthermore, it makes no sense to say that "ne" is there to stand in for "paio", because "paio" is in the sentence already, as the direct object. It does not need a clitic to stand in for it!
So I would argue that it is wrong for Duo to accept here “Ne ho ricevutO un paio”, where the participle is modified to agree with sing masc “paio”. It is with the constituents of “paio” that the participle must agree.
Fortunately, Duo also accepts “ricevutI”and “ricevutE” here. That is, with the participle agreeing with the constituents, either pl masc or pl fem as the case may be.
685
Because the participle does not refer to the pair. It refers to the items that make up the pair.
There is no context here, so we do not know here whether the things that make up the pair are masculine plural or feminine plural. But it must be a plural, because of the meaning of "pair". So the participle must take one of the plural endings, -i or -e.
1370
T8cLqx4z - "...why not ricevuto to agree with un paio - we have no idea what it's a pair of!
Maybe because a pair = 2 of something, which is plural.
1370
While "a pair" in English may be considered singular, it describes a quantity of two, which is plural.
"When ne is used in the past to replace a noun used with an expression of quantity, the past participle agrees in gender and number with the noun ne is replacing."
657
Is there a reason why the " ne " of them, is put at the front of the sentence? Why doesn't it work at the end of the sentence? Thanks for any help with this.
657
Thanks anyway, I see my question regarding why " ne " must be at the beginning of the sentence, was previously answered.
No. When essere is the helping verb, the past participle has to agree (in gender and number) with the subject. When avere is the helping verb and there is a direct object before it, the past participle has to agree with that. "Ne" (of them) is plural, so we need a plural ending (either masculine or feminine since "them" could be all women).
685
Yes. But as clive explained, you still need agreement because in this sentence there is a clitic before "ho", and the participle must agree with the clitic.
1356
https://learnamo.com/come-quando-usare-ne/ was very helpful. It also has an answer to your question.
685
The word "ne" does not mean "I" and it does not mean "me". Here it means "of them":
Ne | ho | ricevute | un paio
Of them | I have | received | a pair
986
I thought the passato prossimo ending only changed number/gender if the helping verb was essere. In this case it's avere. Ho ricevuto according to Reverso.
685
See the comment on this page from clive.
In sum, if there is a clitic pronoun involved, then the past participle changes to agree with the pronoun -- even when "avere" is used as the auxiliary.
Tomas, I can't escape the feeling that you are posting without first reading the comments already on this page ...