"I have received a pair of them."

Translation:Ne ho ricevute un paio.

April 20, 2013

84 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.Franchomme

Please, can you tell me why it is "ricevutE"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dnovinc

Because "pair of them" in this case are of female gender in plural (something like "the two shirt / Le due maglie" )

Ho ricevuto le due maglie. // Ne ho ricevute un paio.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DanProwse

I'm not sure though, if we're translating from the English then there's no way to know whether the arbitrary "them" is masculine or feminine. Besides, "un paio" is itself masculine singular, which led me to believe that "ricevuto" ought to be correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/temporalthings

I guess it's because "ne" replaces something plural (un paio [di something plural]), so the participle has to agree with whatever its replacing. But like you say, there's no way of telling whether it's masculine or feminine.

Persona 1: Hai ricevuto un paio di libri?

Persona 2: Sì, ne ho ricevuti un paio.

1: Anche hai ricevuto un paio di maglie?

2: Sì, pure ne ho ricevute un paio.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Margaret762282

Exactly! We have no way of knowing what the gender (of them) is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/German4me22

Yes, Dan is correct. Un paio is masculine singular and so 'Ne ho ricevuto un paio' was accepted. It makes me wonder whether DL answer is correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zeda123

I disagree. The NE says of them which can be femininum plural or masculinum plural so either ''ricevute'' or ''ricevuti''. Both are accepted and correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nebbiacostiera

I used ricevuto and was marked correct, with ricevutE as an alternative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

German, IMO Duo is NOT correct to accept masculine singular. The participle here agrees not with "un paio", but with the items that make up the pair. See my long post on this page for more.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emtz2002

ricevuto would still not be correct. It could be ricevuti for masculine plural or ricevute for feminine plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

Exactly right.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GborKernyi

In a masculine case "ricevuti"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Udo624462

Accepted "io ne ho ricevuto un paio" Febbraio 2022


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesEdwar6

So then, ricevuto is accepted also 1/25/2022.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marninger

There is no way for us to tell what has been received but, - when 'ne' (of them) is used in 'passato prossimo' the ending of the past particle 'ricevuto' (received) should reflect the number and gender of the object.

Possible object --> Translation
'i libri' p.m. --> Ne ho ricevuti . .
'le chiave' p.f. --> Ne ho ricevute . .
'i pantaloni' s.m. --> Ne ho ricevuto . .


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Emile360442

My dictionary says: pantalóni sostantivo maschile plurale. So shouldn't it be: i pantaloni --> Ne ho ricevuti . . ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kara307221

As Emile mentioned correctly, i pantaloni is not singular, as you can see from the use of the masculine plural article 'i' instead of singular 'il'. I pantaloni is one of these words that take the plural even when talking about just one pair. (presumably because one pair has two legs ;) )


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MintySciurus

The word pantaloni is indeed masculine plural, however un paio di pantaloni (a pair of trousers) is singular (one group of two things), so
"ho ricevuto un paio di pantaloni" would be correct, if a pair of trousers was the object of the sentence.
However, when you substitute the things with "ne" to mean "of them", you're no longer referring to the pair as the object, but the individual things themselves (the trousers, plural), so
"ne ho ricevuti un paio" would be the correct construction, when the 'them' referred to by ne were trousers.
We know that ne means of them in this case, because it's the only thing that makes sense with "I have received a pair". You wouldn't say a pair of it, a pair of some, a pair of any, or a pair of none.
This exercise complicates things because it is a sentence fragment without specifying what the 'them' are, so all you see is "un paio", with no obvious connection as to why the plural form of ricevuto is expected.

https://ciaoitaliablog.wordpress.com/classes/the-italian-ne

https://www.thoughtco.com/using-ne-in-italian-4074179

The forum discussion on the companion exercise to this one (Italian to English) has a more detailed explanation by Signor Formica.
https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/397729/Ne-ho-ricevute-un-paio


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/pacotaco0

It accepted 'ricevuto' to me..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/undeadgoat

There is currently an error; depending on the gender of the noun you are referring to, "ricevuti" or "ricevute" could be correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Taronipops

Ricevuti also accepted 22Jun2019


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David126947

Not accepted today 25/01/20


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Brian212281

I thought only part participles that took 'ester' needed to agree with the subject?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cliv

When the helper verb is essere, the participle needs to agree with the subject. When the helper verb is avere and there is a direct object before the verb, then the participle needs to agree with the direct object.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Geni105524

wh do I need to use NE at the beginning of this sentence?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JonathanSh473181

it's a pronoun that takes the place of "of them".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Emile360442

Ne ho ricevuto un paio is accepted. If I understand above comments correctly this should be an error?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dcounts

That's what I used. My reasoning was "paio" is masculine. "I have received a pair (of them)." Accepted 3.20.19. Good question.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BobMallord

No, what was received was "un paio" of them is simply descriptive of un paio. Thus the ho ricevuto is correct pero' ricevute may also be correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ValerieHoo7

Can someone explain word order here with regards to ne ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

The word "ne" is a clitic, just like "la" or "lo". So, just like "la" or "lo", it goes directly in front of the verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bicameralm

Some assistance with grammar, per favore. :-) My understanding is that when the 'helper' verb is avere, the participle does not agree with the subject or number (whereas if the helper verb is essere, the participle does agree with the gender and number. So: ho ricevuto, hai ricevuto, ha ricevuto, abbiamo ricevuto, avete ricevuto, hanno ricevuto. So why is ricevute (presumably the feminine plural) accepted when the helper verb is based on avere? Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cliv

Since others may care, I'll answer even though this was asked a year ago.

When the helper verb is essere then the participle must have agreement (in gender and number) with the subject.

When the helper verb is avere then the participle must be masculine singular unless there is a direct object before the verb (ne in this case). If a direct object precedes the verb, then the participle must have agreement with the direct object.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CicelydAut

Just to add a complication the word pair in English is singular, despite being a collecting noun. Hmmm.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alan.Howes

It seems that ne has to come at the beginning of this sentence. Why? What is the rule?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JonathanSh473181

It comes before the verb ("ho" in this case). Same as most direct and indirect object pronouns. Clitic pronouns, as Duolingo calls them ("me", "te", "si", "vi", "ci", etc), since they're attached to the verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elena75121

Why is "Ne ho ricevutO un paio" also accepted?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alexandra121555

Both ricevuto (which is what I put) and ricevute is accepted. I am not sure why either is considered correct...it should be one or the other but I put ricevuto as I think of "pair" as singular which is how it is considered in English. I assume ricevuti would be correct also if the pair of whatever is being spoken about is masculine.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/skenderz

Perhaps 'ne' could be singular in this sentence, as in 'a pair of trousers', I received one pair of trousers, which is a single item. Just a thought.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nic37750

Exactly my thought...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JonathanSh473181

In British English, "pair" and other collective nouns can be conjugated as plurals, but not in American English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BobMallord

The noun: un paio, of them, for them, of pants etc. are descriptive of the object of the sentence; "un paio". But according to what i read here there seems to be some ambiguity on which form of the p.p. to use. Duo, and perhaps the language is permissive on this point?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

To understand the grammar when "ne" is involved, it may help to look at the following sentences.

1a. I have received a dog
1b. Ho ricevuto un cane
2a. I have received two apples
2b. Ho ricevuto due mele
3a. I have received a pair of dogs
3b. Ho ricevuto un paio di cani
4a. I have received a pair of apples
4b. Ho ricevuto un paio di mele
5a. I have received a pair of them [dogs]
5b. Ne ho ricevuti un paio [cani]
6a. I have received a pair of them [apples]
6b. Ne ho ricevute un paio [mele]

Note that in 1 the direct object is sing masc “dog” and in 2 is pl fem “apples”. But in both cases the participle is the same, “ricevuto”. The participle does NOT change for number or gender.

In all the remaining sentences 3-6, the direct object is sing masc “paio”. But, once again, the direct object does NOT affect the form of the participle. It is a mistake to argue that in 5-6 the participle must agree with sing masc “paio”. It does not, any more than the participle agrees with the direct object in 1-2.

On the other hand, when “ne” is involved, the participle changes to agree with whatever “ne” is standing in for. And in 5-6 “ne” stands in for the individual items that make up the pair, NOT for the sing masc word “paio” itself.

Some of the posters here argue that we must look at "a pair of things" as an inseparable unit, with "pair" as the main word. Therefore, they say, the "ne" here must be referring to sing masc "paio".

But that is not how the partitive works. Even in English -- well, literary English, anyway -- we can make a separation. For example, instead of saying "I bought 3 pairs of gloves and 5 bottles of wine", we can say, in elegant style, "Of the gloves I bought 3 pair, of the wine, 5 bottles".

Furthermore, it makes no sense to say that "ne" is there to stand in for "paio", because "paio" is in the sentence already, as the direct object. It does not need a clitic to stand in for it!

So I would argue that it is wrong for Duo to accept here “Ne ho ricevutO un paio”, where the participle is modified to agree with sing masc “paio”. It is with the constituents of “paio” that the participle must agree.

Fortunately, Duo also accepts “ricevutI”and “ricevutE” here. That is, with the participle agreeing with the constituents, either pl masc or pl fem as the case may be.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OferBiliba

What is the function of the word ne??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cliv

"Ne" is a pronoun for "of them." You don't have to use the pronoun. You can add "di loro" to the end instead of "ne" at the beginning. If you do that then there is no direct object before the verb and the participle must be masculine singular (with avere).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/pinky738990

But "A pair" is singular, even if a pair is made of two things. It's ONE pair.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MaryD428783

what exactly does 'NE' mean? when I look up the word it just seems to mean NEITHER yet that is not how it seems to be used..anyone?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JonathanSh473181

"né" with the accent is the one that means "neither" or "nor".

"ne" without the accent is a pronoun, as explained by previous comments.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jaap411167

' Ho ricevuto un paio di loro.' accepted 21/08/2020


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/verna120098

O Joy! O Rapture! I put in the ne!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gailmarie2016

why doesn't it become ricevuto refering to un paio.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

Because the participle does not refer to the pair. It refers to the items that make up the pair.

There is no context here, so we do not know here whether the things that make up the pair are masculine plural or feminine plural. But it must be a plural, because of the meaning of "pair". So the participle must take one of the plural endings, -i or -e.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrancesDuce

Confused. You bet.????


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LilyParish1

Why is the ne there


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GerardCrow1

I wrote "Io ne ho ricevute un paio" and it returned an error - should that be allowed?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JonathanSh473181

looks correct to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/meandmyshadow0

Can you not say just say ho, without the ne. If not, why?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PatriciaWe640963

In one of the present perfect discussions someone suggested a great website for verb conjugations. Please post the link again.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/T8cLqx4z

Agreed - why not ricevuto to agree with un paio - we have no idea what it's a pair of!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/verna120098

Earrings? Gloves? Socks? Shoes? Boots? Plow horses? Love birds? Mittens?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Richard754173

T8cLqx4z - "...why not ricevuto to agree with un paio - we have no idea what it's a pair of!

Maybe because a pair = 2 of something, which is plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Richard754173

While "a pair" in English may be considered singular, it describes a quantity of two, which is plural.

From http://tutorino.squarespace.com/grammatica/2007/7/3/la-particella-ne.html#:~:text=When%20ne%20is%20used%20in,agree%20with%20%E2%80%9Cbirre%E2%80%9D.)

"When ne is used in the past to replace a noun used with an expression of quantity, the past participle agrees in gender and number with the noun ne is replacing."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BSrDg2

Is there a reason why the " ne " of them, is put at the front of the sentence? Why doesn't it work at the end of the sentence? Thanks for any help with this.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BSrDg2

Thanks anyway, I see my question regarding why " ne " must be at the beginning of the sentence, was previously answered.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jlarks32

For the love, why can you not say: "Ne ho ricevute di un paio" - I have received a pair OF them? Or does the clitic "ne" already somehow account for that?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cliv

The clitic "ne" is "of them"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Papa_Fix

Shouldn't it be "ricevuto" because "avere" was used instead of "essere"? (Ne ho ricevuto un paio.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cliv

No. When essere is the helping verb, the past participle has to agree (in gender and number) with the subject. When avere is the helping verb and there is a direct object before it, the past participle has to agree with that. "Ne" (of them) is plural, so we need a plural ending (either masculine or feminine since "them" could be all women).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Papa_Fix

Thank you for your answer! But isn't the use of "ho" in the sentence a form of "avere" not "essere"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

Yes. But as clive explained, you still need agreement because in this sentence there is a clitic before "ho", and the participle must agree with the clitic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Elpithalem

Do you mean that ,ne, means of them? Why is it so complicated? In other sentences we used ‘del loro ‘ to indicate of them, why can’t we use it in this case? I translated Io ho ricevuto un paio di loro and it was marked wrong. Can someone explain please


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jim328281

why is it wrong if you put ne last?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Emile360442

https://learnamo.com/come-quando-usare-ne/ was very helpful. It also has an answer to your question.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolejarv1

I have problem with the NE, so is it the same as I, or me. Thank you for help.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

The word "ne" does not mean "I" and it does not mean "me". Here it means "of them":
Ne | ho | ricevute | un paio
Of them | I have | received | a pair


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tomas258654

I thought the passato prossimo ending only changed number/gender if the helping verb was essere. In this case it's avere. Ho ricevuto according to Reverso.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ion1122

See the comment on this page from clive.

In sum, if there is a clitic pronoun involved, then the past participle changes to agree with the pronoun -- even when "avere" is used as the auxiliary.

Tomas, I can't escape the feeling that you are posting without first reading the comments already on this page ...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LuPEiT1

"Ho ricevuto un paio di loro" is also accepted.

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