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  5. "Siamo diventate donne."

"Siamo diventate donne."

Translation:We have turned into women.

June 21, 2014

67 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.T.Han

"to be turned into" in English means "to become". That is not the problem I have. My problem is, in what way is "diventare" an transitive verb?? Obviously, the word "become" doesn't mean anything on its own until it brings the object after it. So why "Siamo diventate donne" not "Abbiamo diventate donne"? Arhitoehwig This has been my nightmare of all time, as well as the preposition for infinitives....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/xyphax

essere is used with verbs that express a state of being, or a 'change in a state of being'. To become something changes your state of being. It is for this reason that morire also takes essere.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/coloraday

The auxiliary that goes with diventare to form compound tenses is essere. That's all. :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

JTHan: diventare is not transitive. The noun after is is called a predicate nominative, that is it refers back to the subject. In other words it functions the same as the verb "to be".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/juraj.slavik

To check if any verb is transitive, try this:

https://www.duolingo.com/comment/8783264

To your question - diventare is intransitive verb and its other properties (from which you can figure why it uses essere) can be found here:

http://www.saenaiulia.com/_01/italian-verbs/active-voice-conjugation.php?id_verbo=83


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/claire_pwns

My guess is that "donne" is an attribute, not an object. In the sentences "I am/become/look like a woman." 'woman' is not an object, but an attribute. In German you'd use a nominative instead of an accusative here, if that helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ursu_Brun

It doesn't help. And it isn't an attribute (the attribute as a function in the sentence is usually an adjective, not a noun). This is a noun and its function in the sentence is that of a predicative noun - what did we become? Like an object, but not really an object. :o) I think you were partially right.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Roan866446

diventare is not a transitive verb and neither is become. As the prefixes indicate, they suggest "of X comes Y." I see that you are embarked on Korean. In Korean, Y is marked with the nominative, not the object, particle: "Kim-ssi nun shiin i doysssumnida 'Mr. Kim became a poet.' In Japanese, Y is marked with the non-transitive particles "ni" or "to". In Latin, one says "Brutus rex factus est" 'Brutus became the king, where the first three words are all marked nominative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Narmit

The tips say that you use essere with reflexive verbs, avere with transitive verbs and intransitive verbs have no specific rule.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rcpjenn

I still don't understand why "siamo" is used and not "abbiamo." Although I speak English very well, I couldn't tell you the difference between a gerund and a participle, let alone some of the other terms that show up in these discusions, like "transitive" and "nominative." Those classes were so boring I fell asleep! Guess I'll have to dig up my old 9th grade English textbook; although I would much prefer just a simple explaination to my question. "In English," please!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

English only has one verb that it uses to form its compound past tenses: 'have', so it doesn't matter what the verb means, English uses 'have'. This means it makes no distinction between verbs with objects after them: we have eaten (an apple); she has bought a car; he has seen a movie, etc. and verbs that don't: we have gone (to the zoo); she has been (in school); we have become women, etc. Other languages however use "to be" in addition to "have" for this purpose. In those examples above which involve verbs and objects Italian generally will also use 'avere', like English. But unlike English, in the other examples that don't involve objects, Italian uses "essere'. The point to remember is that when 'essere' is used this way, it means 'have/had/etc' just as much as 'avere' does, because English only uses one verb to form its compound past tenses and that is "have". So 'abbiamo comprato una mela" and "siamo diventate donne" both translate as 'we HAVE...bought an apple/become women". If it helps at all, you might be familiar with older English/Biblical English where 'to be' was in fact used, before giving way to "have": 'X is risen,' 'is cometh,' etc. Even colloquially today, you might still hear someone say: "Is the dough risen yet?" instead of "has the dough risen yet". Why? Because you can't "rise" anything like you can e.g. bake, see, buy, eat, drink something -- verbs which would use 'have' to form their past tenses because objects are involved.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/pennyellen65

I appreciate this explanation


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BampaOwl

I'm afraid, rcpjenn, that just about every language you or I are likely to learn has a lot more grammar than English, and some knowledge of grammatical terms is immensely useful in learning these other languages. I went (a long time ago!) to what might be called a "grammar school", and even there I don't remember learning English grammar! But we did learn Latin, which has an awful lot of grammar, and that helped me a lot in coping with grammar in other languages.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrancesDuce

why "we have turned into women" a strange way of saying we have become women. where does the word" turned "come from?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/giovanna60615

Gender reassignment surgery


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ariaflame

Or merely growing up, we once were girls, but now we have become women.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/julia.s.h

Right! Good point.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/avocadohummus

(whispers that trans women have always been women, and the fact they have had surgery or not doesn't change the fact. Also, as the other person said, I thought the sentence to mean that girls have become women).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ZuMako8_Momo

It is just a different, common way of saying "become" in English. I don't know where it came from, though. The same phenomenon occurs in other languages too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/curiousminds

"Become" in a real-life sense, but how about "turned into" in a fairy tale sense? A couple of frogs make a wish to their fairy godmother and hey presto, "We have turned into women! Now we can go to the ball!" :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SenhorCast

"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Spinneweber

Why not "I have grown into a woman"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TheInfiniteFish

Why is diventate changed to agree with 'donne'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ZuMako8_Momo

Because, here, the auxiliary verb is «essere», in which case the past participle must always decline to agree in gender and number.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ksorb1

We became women should have been approved!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Ksorb1: I agree. You should report it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/robertoToberto

we have become women is a correct answer


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mag9nus

I tried "We became ladies" and it marked me wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SueWaller

I learnt long ago that Duolingo doesn't seem to know the word "ladies". My Italian teacher says "donne" definitely means "women" and "signore" means "ladies", but the two are not interchangeable.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohanDupon

That's what I typed and it was marked as wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Cangurina777

The hint drop down list for the word "diventate" shows the word become, for this reason I translated this sentence as "We become women" and Duo said this was incorrect. The list does not show the word became nor turned.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Cangurina: You've got the tense wrong. "Siamo diventate" is the perfect tense, so it must be translated as either 'we have become...' or 'we became...' What you wrote was in the present tense.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Anna591186

I was thinking polyjuice potion was involved...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RiaWilliam1

Turned is the same as changed !!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dude699075

I put "We became women" and it was marked wrong... (Sad trombone sound) seems like that should be accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maureen428927

I put become instead of turned into. This is the same thing so why is it marked wrong?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jane201498

in english it would be more normal to say we / she or they are "becoming" women


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Peter123919

Divenire vs. diventare? When is each used? Are they interchangeable?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aniltuncel

why not 'siamo ho divantate donne'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ariaflame

We are I have become women? Because it doesn't make any sense. For this verb the auxiliary verb is essere, not avere. So 'ho' is out for two reasons. One, it's the conjugation with 'I' not 'We' and Two, it is from avere and not essere. The literal translation for the correct answer "Siamo diventate donne" is 'We are become women' but that's not the way English would say it, so we use 'We became women' is the best translation. Or 'We have become women' even though in Italian they use essere (to be) rather than avere (to have) as the auxiliary verb with this verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Ariaflame: I disagree on one point, but I think it's an important one. You can't think or translate 'essere' when it's being used as an auxiliary as "to be". That's plain wrong and it'll get people into trouble. Italian like other languages uses both 'avere' and 'essere' as auxiliaries for the compound past tenses (German is another notable one). Since English on the other hand only uses "to have" regardless of which verb is being put into those past tenses, it only has ONE way to render BOTH of Italian's two auxiliaries: avere and essere: They BOTH mean 'to have' when they're functioning as auxiliaries. So to say the translation of "Siamo diventate donne" is "We are become women" is absolutely misleading and will only lead people to misinterpret and mistranslate future sentences involving essere in the compound past tenses. "Siamo" does NOT mean 'we ARE" in THIS sentence- rather it means "we HAVE". because that's the only option English has to express compound past tenses.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ariaflame

Actually there are instances where 'to be' is used in sentences similar to that. They're mostly archaic and used in poetry and so forth but they're not unknown. There's a discussion on the topic here http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/are-become-v-have-become.1183700/

Though the meaning when we use 'have' is often slightly different to the one when we use 'be'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdiYan12

to those of you who wonder, when we build "passato prossimo" using 'essere' we do change the verb according to the 'pronomi personali' :) for example : io sono partita (cause im a girl, = I drove), voi siete partiti ..etc.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tjablo1976

Siamo means we have too? I thought it meant we are!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

tjablo1976: See my & others comments above regarding 'essere' as an auxiliary verb in English. ALL the forms of 'essere' (to be) must be translated as forms of "to have" in English when they are functioning as helping verbs for the compound past tenses and that's because English only uses one auxiliary for all of its verbs and that auxiliary is 'to have'. So yes, in this sense, 'siamo' means 'we have' too, because that's the only way English has to translate it. Another example: Siamo ragazzi = we ARE boys, but Siamo andati = we HAVE gone. You can't say "we ARE gone."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tjablo1976

I see, so it is more of a translating to English issue. Thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

tjablo...Yes, precisely. When expressing Italian compound past tense constructions into English you never have to worry about what auxiliary verb to use -- it'll always be a form of 'to have' since that's the only auxiliary English uses. I see you're studying German too, and it's the same situation there: 'sein' vs 'haben', with the same 'resulting translation' in English, namely a form of 'to have' + past participle.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolfair

When you hover over diventate it says 'become' ... I wrote 'become' and it was incorrect ... the response was "We BECAME women" .. ???????????????


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

carolfair - see my comment to Cangurina just above. 'diventate' DOES mean "become," but as a past participle, so it's not used in the present tense, it has to be used with an auxiliary to generate a past tense. If you use it alone, it'd be like saying in english: I seen it or she done it. You're using a past participle as a conjugated form of the verb and you can't do that. Now if the translation is 'became' fine, b/c the perfect tense can be translated either as "We have become" or as "We became".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SueWaller

Doesn't anyone else have a problem with "ladies" not being accepted. In English, "ladies" and "women" are pretty well interchangeable, even though the former is a bit old-fashioned.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Sue, I tend to agree that the two terms are 'pretty well interchangeable' but would add that 'lady/ladies' strikes me as restricted now to certain stock phrases, in which 'woman/women' would not be synonymous: ladies room (public restroom); ladies and gentlemen; Lady Vols/Tigers/Huskies (female athletic teams); Ladies! (direct address, e.g. ...please follow me!), etc.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SueWaller

Perhaps I am showing my age! I would certainly find "becoming ladies" quite normal speech, especially in relation to teenagers or "young ladies". I am Australian, so am aware that usage in America differs, and perhaps to some extent British usage may differ - but age is probably a major factor. Part of the diminution of the English language!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WalterZAMB4

To become and to be turned into are very loose translations.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdondavidson

Come on Duo. Correct this wrong English translation. You become a woman!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RichardHar981284

we have become women means exactly the same. I get angry at the refusal to acknowledge the vernacular


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OcampoEd

Why no "ci"? Ci siamo diventate donne?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JSMcCarter

We have become women..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IanWitham1

Batman é diventate Wonder Woman.

In Justice League of America number 11, Green Lantern turned Batman into Wonder Woman.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HafidzHakim

it would be funnier with "diventati" :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ursu_Brun

This sentence is particularly interesting when spoken by the male voice. :o)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chris229238

What a pointless sentence!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chris229238

What a pointless sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/littlemissk_s

What is wrong with duolingo - how is thay a useful sentence to learn? These are ridiculous examples. I was going to recommend this app to some family, but honestly, i am less and less impressed with every example. Particularly as the tips included to 'teach' you the present perfect only include the verb endings and difference between the auxiliaries avere and essere, nothing about irregulars, etc. So disappointing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Chelsa617483

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