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  5. "Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur."

"Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur."

Translation:It is brown.

October 17, 2019

16 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/McKay240790

The literal translation would be: It is orange and resembles Kradge lips Apparently this is an idiom.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Or maybe better said as "warm colored and resembles kradge lips," since Doq is not "orange specifically, but covers a range of warm colors. Brown is the specific warm color of kradge lips. Mentioning something specific that has a particular color is a common way to be specific about a color. I wouldn't call it an idiom since kradge lips are actually brown, but I suppose there's a subjective argument to be had there.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

It's like the color sky blue. It's not an idiom; it literally means the shade of blue that is the color of the sky. Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur is exactly like this: kradge-lip Doq. It's the shade of Doq that is the color of kradge lips.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/McKay240790

I think It is orange and resembles Kradge lips is a literal transation.

While I understand that "warm colored" might be closer to covering English colors, I prefer to think that Klingons just aren't as expressive with color as Humans are. e.g, if the RGB color #000080 was presented, a wedding planner might say It's navy, I might say It's blue, and a Klingon would say SuD. No one is wrong, but each has a different level of expressiveness. Is this incorrect? (If it is, bear with me, because I'm going to use "orange" in this same sense through the rest of this post)

Next I wonder if It's as orange as Kradge lips is a correct translation, but the lesson doesn't use the word 'ej for this as X as Y construction. Does Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur. have distinct meaning from Doq; Qaj wuS rur.? Because the latter is clearly It's as orange as kradge lips if I understand the lesson today. Because the former is different I presume the meaning is different? (Also, It's as orange as kradge lips wasn't anywhere near one of my options) I'm thinking something along the lines of It resembles kradge lips and its orangeness or perhaps It is like kradge lips in its orangeness or perhaps It is like kradge lips in its color (which in this case is orange). Is any of this close?

Also, I picture a Kradge as a fish, but I can't find anything that mentions the kind of animal it is. Do we know anything else?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

All we know is that they have tails and lips - the tails are yummy and the lips are brown. For some reason I have always imagined a bird of some type. I think I formed a humourous image of a bird that actually does have lips and it stuck in my head. But can't imagine enjoying either fish tails or bird tails, so I think a land animal with a significant tail is more likely.

The "expressiveness" is not a Human/Klingon thing. There are plenty of human languages with similarly limited basic colors and some that have more basic colors. English is considered to have 11 basic color terms, but I believe Russian is considered to have 13.

I would say that there is not a signficant difference in meaning between Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur and Doq; Qaj wuS rur, but there is a big grammatical difference. The first sort of says, "brown, like kradge lips" and the second says, "as brown as kradge lips". In English we don't use the word "orange" for the color that kradge lips are. Thus, when the sentence specifies that the shade of Doq being considered is the color of kradge lips, "orange" will not be accepted as part of the answer.

This is one of the best summaries I have seen: http://klingonska.org/ref/color.html


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Qov-jIH-je

I imagined Qaj tlhuQ being like lobster tails, but I never got around to imagining a lobster with any kind of lips. SuD lobster vutlu'pa' 'ach vutlu'taHvIS DoqchoH. Hurgh HochHom lobster tlhol 'ej tera' tI' lurur 'ach SuD 'op 'ej tera' chal lurur. 'IH bIH. https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/7A60/production/_89782313_lobster1.jpg


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

tujchoHtaHvIS DoqchoH'a' SuDbogh 'ej tera' chal lururbogh lobsters?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Qov-jIH-je

HIja'. lobster nguvmoHbogh 'o'rIS'e' Qaw' tuj. bISoptaHvIS nagh DIr qub DatIv DaneHchugh, vaj tlholwI' DaSopnIS.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

lobster tlhol vISoppu'. 'a nagh DIr Hutlh 'ej Dem Ha'DIbaH. Dem Ha'DIbaHvam 'e' vIHar'a' pagh chum'a'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Qov-jIH-je

qaStaHvIS DIS puS lobster vISopbe'taH. chISlaw' Ha'DIbaH 'ach rurqu'chuq Dembogh Ha'DIbaH, chISbogh Ha'DIbaH je. SuD lobster 'Iw vaj yIntaHvIS chaq loQ SuD Ha'DIbaH.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/McKay240790

Another way of answering my question:

tlher 'ej Qaj wuS rur. Does this mean It's as bumpy as Kradge lips.? (presuming Kradge lips are a special kind of bumpy) Or is this a weird sentence in Klingon? If so, why? Because if it means It's bumpy and it's brown. or It's bumpy and it's as brown as kradge lips. then the phrase Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur. would mean It's brown and it's brown. or It's brown and it's as brown as kradge lips., which makes it redundant?)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

I suppose one could translate tlher 'ej Qaj wuS rur as "bumpy, like kradge lips". The most likely interpretation of that is that kradge lips are also bumpy and this thing is bumpy in a similar way. But there is some possability that what is actually meant is "bumpy and brown". Don't think of language like a mathematical formula. Qaj wuS rur does not equal "brown". That phrase makes a Klingon think about the distinctive features of kradge lips and apparently brown is the most distinctive feature of kradge lips. A brown image is immediately called to mind, but it doesn't mean that a Klingon refuses to consider any other feature of kradge lips. Adding Doq 'ej... makes it completely clear that we are talking about the color. It's sort of like "sky blue colored" - it would really be sufficient to say, "sky colored", but we like to add the "blue" to make it clear.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

The article that Qaj wuS rur was introduced here: http://klingonska.org/canon/1999-03-holqed-08-1.txt

It says that Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur describes a particular shade of brown, not the same range as what we would call brown.

It's not giving us the formula for saying brown; it's giving us the procedure for identifying specific colors. You would only say Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur if the subject's color was indistinguishable from the color of kradge lips. If I wanted to describe something that was the color of coffee beans, I'd say Doq 'ej qa'vIn qurgh rur coffee-bean brown.

As for whether you separate the sentences with a conjunction or a semi-colon: I'm sure it doesn't matter.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/McKay240790

In this post you said

Qaj wuS rur does not equal "brown"

And that seems to fit with a bunch of other things you're saying, But Duolingo seems to think otherwise. https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/34601802$from_email%3Dcomment&comment_id%3D34605436 I was given be brown and was given three klingon choices, the other two were clearly wrong, but Qaj wuS rur means be brown? The http://klingonska.org/canon/1999-03-holqed-08-1.txt article seems to imply that

"adjectival verb 'ej thing rur."

is a simile in Klingon.(which implies that it either means "As brown as kradge lips", or "It's brown, like Kradge Lips"

Maybe using the 'ej construction is similar to the former, and the semicolon is more like the latter, which would mean the best translation for tlher 'ej Qaj wuS rur is It's as bumpy as kradge lips, but it could also mean It's bumpy and is brown??? (again, still presuming that kradge lips are bumpy) All of the examples you give specifically mention color, so it's not helping.

So more than anything I'm confused, because I've got 3 different sources saying 3 different things, and I can't resolve it in my head, so I don't know what to believe :(

Can we at least clean up the tips to talk about both of these constructions, and remove that misleading answer of "it resembles kradge lips" means "is brown", or am I mistaken in thinking that you think that answer is still instructive somehow.

Sorry if this sounds personal, I'm not trying to disprove anyone, I'm just really frustrated here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidTrimb3

Duolingo is wrong. When there is a difference between what Duolingo says and what Marc Okrand says, believe Okrand every time. Doq 'ej Qaj wuS rur is a simile, and similes are the usual way one specifies a specific shade of a color in Klingon.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

In this post you said
Qaj wuS rur does not equal "brown"
...
Duolingo seems to think otherwise.

Duolingo is trying to show you that it can be interpreted this way, not that these are exactly equivalent. One of the problems that the Duolingo software has is that it sometimes limits the choices available for you. You have to find the best answer, not the perfect answer.

Qaj wuS rur means be brown? The http://klingonska.org/canon/1999-03-holqed-08-1.txt article seems to imply that

The article is clear that it is an example of using a comparison to evoke a specific shade. The article does not say that those two things are exactly equivalent.

"adjectival verb 'ej thing rur."
is a simile in Klingon.(which implies that it either means "As brown as kradge lips", or "It's brown, like Kradge Lips"

Or perhaps some other comparison. But in the context of color, yes, that's a great way to use a comparison to evoke a specific shade.

Maybe using the 'ej construction is similar to the former, and the semicolon is more like the latter, which would mean the best translation for tlher 'ej Qaj wuS rur is It's as bumpy as kradge lips, but it could also mean It's bumpy and is brown??? (again, still presuming that kradge lips are bumpy) All of the examples you give specifically mention color, so it's not helping.

Are you asking if this type of sentence can be used to compare other aspects besides color? Yes, it can.

So more than anything I'm confused, because I've got 3 different sources saying 3 different things, and I can't resolve it in my head, so I don't know what to believe :(

I'm reading them as all saying the same thing. You have to let go of the idea that two languages are exactly equal and realize that there can be uneven overlap in meaning. Qaj wuS rur can be used to indicate that something has a particular color, but it can also be used in other ways.

Can we at least clean up the tips to talk about both of these constructions, and remove that misleading answer of "it resembles kradge lips" means "is brown"

It does sometimes mean that. But I have already made some changes to make it less likely to present that equivalence to users. I'm hoping that now it will at least always include Doq when trying to get you to think of the color of kradge lips. The software can be unpredictable, so we'll see what happens.

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