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  5. "naDev reH puqpu' net chergh."

"naDev reH puqpu' net chergh."

Translation:It is tolerated that children play here.

January 2, 2020

8 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TimM.13

My first attempt at this question was: "Children are allowed to play here." That's apparently not correct. Is it because it is more correct to say that the idea one is trying to communicate is that they are not necessarily allowed to play there, but they are also not expressly forbidden?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Even in English, the difference between "tolerate" and "allow" seems to be small and subtle. But there's definitely a difference. These don't seem to be perfect synonyms, but often either could be used in many of the same situations.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TimM.13

Ok, that's fair. Thanks for the quick response.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yoDtargh

{chergh} seems to have an indefinite subject ("it is tolerated"). Should it be {cherghlu'}?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

net = 'e' -lu'. So this sentence does use cherghlu', but the -lu' is hidden in the net.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DougD18

I understand the correct answer. Would someone please check my thinking on my mistakes?

My wrong answer was "Children are usually tolerated here."

Problem 1: reH is a verb here, not an adverb, and even if it was the adverb, the correct meaning is "always", not "usually" (motlh).

Problem 2: Also if it had been the adverb "always", it would still be wrong for two reasons. One of them is that if it were an adverb, it would have come before naDev, because Timestamp, Adverb, Location - is this correct?

Problem 3: The second of the two reasons is that, because of net, the sentence clearly needs me to look for a dependent clause, and those have verbs. (Except for when they are referring to a previous statement, such as in net Sov.) The way I translated it, there was no main+dependent clause. Do I have all this correct?

Leaving this sentence behind, questions to help me better grasp indefinite object vs passive voice. (They don't seem hard, but they are slipping around my brain a bit).

Is my sentence an example of indefinite subject?

Would the correct translation of my sentence "Children are usually tolerated here" be motlh naDev puqpu' lucherghlu' ?

Would passive voice be "They usually tolerate children here" or "One usually tolerates children here" something else? Am I understanding correctly that the Klingon would be the same regardless of if the English is in passive voice or indefinite subject?

Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdmcowan

Problem 2: Also if it had been the adverb "always", it would still be wrong for two reasons. One of them is that if it were an adverb, it would have come before naDev, because Timestamp, Adverb, Location - is this correct?

Some Klingonists believe there is a strict order to the elements that occur before the OVS. Personally, I don't believe that the order is so strict and I think it is probably still grammatically acceptable to present the elements in a different order. However, as you point out in Problem 3, if you are using reH as an adverb, then there is no verb in your dependent clause, which is ungrammatical. Throw out problem number 2 - numbers 1 & 3 are sufficient.

Is my sentence an example of indefinite subject?

No. It is passive voice. Or I suppose "passive voice" is a type of indefinite subject, so maybe, yes. In the sentence you suggested, "Children are usually tolerated here," who is doing the tolerating and who is being tolerated? The subject of "tolerate" is not being identified and the object of "tolerate" has been fronted to act as the subject of "to be" even though they are really the object of "tolerate". This is how the "passive voice" is formed in English. Klingon does not have this kind of passive voice where the object is made the subject and the verb is put into a perfect tense. Instead you have to use the "indefinite subject" for this intent. Thus your Klingon suggestion of motlh naDev puqpu' lucherghlu' is, indeed, a good way to translate it.

Would passive voice be "They usually tolerate children here" or "One usually tolerates children here" something else? Am I understanding correctly that the Klingon would be the same regardless of if the English is in passive voice or indefinite subject?

These are not the English passive voice. They do not move the object to the subject position and put the verb in a perfect tense. Instead, those are examples of using generic subjects. In this case, "they" is not referring to some known plural subject, but to a generic and indefinite subject. Also, "one" is not used to refer to a specific single individual, but rather to a generic and indefinite subject. These would also be translated into Klingon using the -lu' suffix. Yes, you are correct that they all get translated into the same Klingon structure.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DougD18

Very helpful.

This also cleared up a related issue where indef. obj. and generic subj. as concepts, and as applied, were slippery in my brain.

Thanks!

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