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  5. "La mamma li aveva portati."

"La mamma li aveva portati."

Translation:Mom had brought them.

May 6, 2013

73 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Blomeley

The meanings of 'portare' and 'prendere' I believe are more distinct in Italian than in English, so I think they are trying to make us appreciate that difference. 'Portare' is about moving something to a final destination, while 'Prendere' is about moving something away from an initial location.

While english 'bring' and 'take' have the same distinction, we can often use them interchangeably, when it becomes more about the journey, than the origin or the destination.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

Agree with you. My frame of reference on "portare" is "to transport, to carry", ref. "porter" at a hotel or airport, while for "prendere" it's "apprehend" - "to take into one's custody, to go get, to take away"

Example: "Io prendo la torta e la porto a la festa."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatherineK153278

While take and bring can be interchanged they are not the same.
If I asked you to bring me something it would sound funny to replace it with take. The same if you are taking something to someone else I wouldn't replace it with bring. When talking about a future event you could say please bring a plate or please take a plate but it would depend on who is talking as to which would be the best fit.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dmmaus

Ooh, I hadn't twigged to that before now. Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mariaelena256

blomeley thanx for this very helpful explanation


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Reefspal

It really annoys me that 'Mum' is not accepted and I have to write 'mom'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BGooge

Me too - it really goes against the grain - along with pants!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lolologist

Pants go against the grain? You need softer pants.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dmmaus

They've fixed that on this sentence now, thankfully. (otherwise I would have lost a heart.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mjustiniano1

How dare the Americans give you such an inconsiderate free learning software. The nerve! ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/johndelaroo

Imperialism with a smily face. Have a nice day now, or else you will lose a heart!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/walgen

i'm american and believe it benefits all of us to include multiple widely used standards of english.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jeri123

you say po-tay-to i say po-tah-to


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Martin135869

Ragazzi, se ci sara una baruffa, fatela prego fuori dalla mia osteria! Ho appena comprato i nuovi bicchieri!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bklyn44

I used mama and it was not correct. Their answer --- "mum."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

bklyn44, "mama" is just as correct. But if you ask them, they're going to keep mum. :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stuart.hol2

Mum had brought them. You had a typo in your answer, Mom had brought them. No I didn't - non sono americani! A UK English speaker would never say, write or have anything to do with MOM!!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ganaj

Duolingo uses American English. Take it or leave it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sureed

The trouble is that DL, though it obviously uses American English as its main form, is usually good at accepting British variants. This makes it very frustrating when it suddenly doesn't take them, especially when you 'fail' a lesson for it. If DL only used the AE spellings we should indeed just have to grin and bear it. As it is, allow us BE speakers and spellers the odd grouch in the forums - though of course we should rather be reporting.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BlackSea

Yes, inconsistency IS annoying. While it normally takes all contractions as well, occasionally it doesn't.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BampaOwl

Actually @stuart.hol2, you're wrong. Mom is common usage in and around Birmingham (England!). No idea why.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

BampaOwl: I suspect that Brits outside of Birmingham are just keeping 'mum' about it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gordon_gregory

I said "the mom had taken them there", which was wrong. What was the "li" for?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AntonyHodgson

'li' is the direct object pronoun for 'them': http://italian.about.com/library/fare/blfare116a.htm. To say "the mom had taken them there", I think you would say "La mamma li aveva portati lì".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gordon_gregory

Thanks. Wow. Which "li" meant there? The first or the second? I would have thought the second "li" meant "there", but clearly I was wrong and lost heart.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AntonyHodgson

The direct object goes before the first part of the conjugated verb (ie, before aveva). Although not directly relevant here, note that indirect objects also generally go there as well, except for 'loro'. There's a good article about combining direct and indirect objects at http://italian.about.com/library/fare/blfare168a.htm. Also note that 'lì' (meaning 'there') has an accent on it and goes after the verb phrase.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jdf90

Why is it portati and not portato?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Reefspal

Because of 'them' and not 'it'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jeri123

I questioned this also, so I looked it up. The rules concerning agreement of the past participle with gender and number in compound verbs are a bit daunting in my opinion. Those who are studying Italian seriously should find the rules and memorize them. I found them in a book I have, but I'm sure they are available from many sources on the web.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Buonveloce: The rules aren't that daunting. If the auxiliary is essere the past participle agrees in gender and number with the subject. If the auxiliary is avere AND there's a direct object pronoun present it'll agree in gender and number with the pronoun. That's pretty much it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jeri123

i agree with you... daunting might be an overstatement, but i did qualify it with "a bit" and I was allowing for those who are more grammatically challenged. At any rate, I find four rules, not two, to wit: the past participle is modified in number and gender (a) with essere, always (b) with avere, optional if the preceding direct object pronoun is mi, ti, ci, or vi, or if the preceding pronoun is ne when it refers to a specific quantity (c) with avere, always if the preceding direct object pronoun is lo, la, li or le or with the pronoun ne when it refers to some or part of something, and (d) with avere, never with a preceding indirect object pronoun.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Thanks Buonveloce - I wasn't aware of the second one. Grazie!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JeaniePres

This is clear and easy to follow. It also answered my question as so much of this thread and silly waste of time to wade through, re: Mom, Mum, momma, mama etc


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.Franchomme

I don't catch the real difference between 'to take' and 'to bring' in the difference sentences of the lesson. Can you tell me why 'The mom had taken them' is wrong?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/oktaya

The distinction is clearer from the point of view of an observer. Let's say you are at point A with some money and you are transporting it to point B.

If the observer is at point B as well he will ask "Did you bring the money?"

If the observer is at point A (or elsewhere) he will ask "Did you take the money to point B?"

Around New York both of these are "bring" probably because "take" is already overloaded with a lot meanings.

All of this is assuming it's the same as in Turkish. I am only level 10 after all.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bklyn44

You are correct. Bring it here; take it there.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/oktaya

In this case it would be wrong because you are at the destination too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/McEvoy11

mother, mamma, mama, mammy and mummy should all be accepted


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cleopardi

La mamma is mom? Not the mum?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gill328589

Mom is American not English. In the north of England and Wales we would NEVER say mom. Mam should be accepted


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RuthBlake2

In terms of the conversation between Blomeley and Jeffrey, as I understand it, portare and prendere do not mean bring and take (respectively) in the way they are ascribing (which is the way english people would assume when you group the two words together like that - 'bring and take') . Portare is always used to indicate moving a thing from one place to another place. In English, we distinguish between bringing, taking and carrying, but in Italian it's not necessary. Portare covers all of them - I think of the English verb 'to transPORT'.

Prendere means to take in various different ways, but never moving a thing from one place to another. Rather it's more more grabbing or picking something up (eg he takes the umbrella from the stand), or what food you'll have (eg I'll have /take the risotto) , or what transport you'll take (eg I'm taking the train). There's valores links online to help with this distinction, including a good comment by another user, Mabby, that gives lots of examples to clarify these differences more thoroughly here:

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/20736573/Prendere-vs-Portare


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ilAustiniano

Could this sentence not also mean, "Their mother had brought them?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AntonyHodgson

Mother = 'madre', Mom = 'mamma'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rompip

And also I tried 'Their mum had brought them' which was marked wrong


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Viktoria_Chance

i thought that "li" means also "it", i lost a heart


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sureed

In other sentences like this which I've come across on DL, 'la mamma' is translated as 'his/her/our etc. mum (or mom)', the possessive being implied. Here I had 'their mum' marked wrong, although I would equally understand 'their' to be implied here. I've reported I assuming that I am right, but can anyone suggest why that might not be the case here. (Also in my answer the British English 'mum' was rejected, which has never happened before and is just downright annoying!)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KarenHJensen

I also believe Mama should be accepted. It is an English word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

I typed "La mamma l'aveva portati" and it was marked incorrect. Why can't the pronoun be contracted since 'portati' clearly indictes the object is a plural?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/baggiemews

"It is possible, but not necessary, to elide singular direct object pronouns in front of verbs that begin with a vowel or forms of avere that begin with an h. However, the plural forms li and le are never elided." From: http://italian.about.com/library/fare/blfare116b.htm


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

baggiemews: You're absolutely correct and I've since learned that. Your post confirmed it for me. Thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/123svets

Please, explain why "PORTATI" is used here , I would expect "PORTATO". Thank you


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

I believe the past participle has to agree with a pronoun object, in this case 'li'. If she had brought him/lo it would have been 'portato'; her/la 'portata', them/the girls/le 'portate'. I think that's correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/123svets

Germanlehretsu, you are right. Thanks a lot.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarioZheng1

Would it be the same if I use 'La mamma li aveva portato'? Also I don't quite understand why here, since the auxiliary verb is 'avere', the past participle has to be reflected to agree with the object 'li'. Could anyone help? Many thanks in advance!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Mario. No - the past participle has to agree with the pronoun object; it doesn't matter at all that the auxiliary is 'avere'. In this case the object is plural masculine, so 'portati'. By the way, since it's 'portati' then the pronoun object would be "li" referring to masculine nouns, people or objects. So mama had brought the boys, ragazzi, or she'd brought the books, libri: both would result in "portati".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarioZheng1

Grazie mille per la spegazione chiarissima!! So if I understand it right, is it only the case when the direct objective is a pronoun, however, when the direct object is a noun, the past participle doesn't have to agree with the direct objective e.g. 'La mamma aveva portato i bambini'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Yes, MarioZheng. I believe that's correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/roman2095

It is also worth remembering that the agreement of the participle with the direct object pronoun is only mandatory for third party (singular and plural) pronouns (lo, la, li, le). Agreement with other (first and second person) pronouns (mi,ti, ci, vi) is optional. In this exercise the object is third person plural so agreement is required.

http://www.italian-online.de/grammar/chapter9/9_3_1_1_2_agreement_participle_genus_numerus.htm


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/learner77454

"The mamma had brought them," is as correct as "The mom had brought them."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Germanlehrerlsu

Anthony: when you have a pronoun direct object in the compound past tense, the past participle must agree with it, so since you have "li" - them, then you need "portati". BTW, since it's 'li' you know that it refers to males or a mixed group -- or nouns that are masculine.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Carolus_BR

Why is it portati and not portato, since the auxiliary verb is avere?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JuliaCoggi

why is it portati? I thought the rule with past tense was use the right form of avevo and then the infinitive?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NorbertKre7

Entirely wrong!!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jan534792

Why don't people scroll through all the posts first to see if there is an answer to their question? Several repeats in this interminable thread!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Roseanna223913

how is la mamma = mom


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Granny294096

'Mom' is an American term - why not accept the English "Mummy" or "Mum"? Very annoying


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sigskjel

There sholdn't be "la" before "mamma", no article preceding near relatives.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

Just because: "La mamma li aveva portati là" - Mama had taken them there.

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